A little surprise

[GMPX]

We just thought we'd surprise everyone in the next beta release (posted HERE (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15803-February-26th-2011-release-candidate-1)). We have added in to the V8 software the ability to read out the Bosch E55, E69 & E77 ECM's.
This is an exercise to assess interest in these ECM's and for us to evaluate how difficult they are going to be to add support for. Being Bosch, I think I already know the answer to that :doh2:

First one is the E69 ECM, this has been used by GM for the Direct Injection 4cyl and V6 engines even up to today. It is currently being phased out in favour of the new E39 ECM (which we already support). However, the E69 was/is used in applications like the Turbo HHR, Camaro V6, Holden SV6 and some Cadillac's.
The E55 & E77 is used on the 3.6L non direct injection HFV6, cars like the Cadillac CTS, Holden Commodore, G8.

We've tested reading on a number of different 3.6L ECM's and it works fine (06 VZ Comm-E55, 08 VE Comm-E77, 08 SRX-E77, 09 STS-E69), it takes about 12-15 mins, but we are at the mercy of Bosch's limitations there and we are currently reading out the entire ECM (OS and cals) so it does tend to drag on a bit (compared to Delphi ECM reads).
Now the beta release is posted, if you have access to a vehicle using any of these ECM's we would appreciate if you could attempt to read the ECM, if it works, please Email the tune to support@efilive.com, and if it fails, please Email support details about the vehicle so we can get a picture on what models this might work on.

Thanks,
Ross

[swingtan]

Nice work guys! I'll be giving of a go.

[Chevy366]

Nice work , 15 minutes WOW !
PCM limitations = time to surf net and do some errands . :hihi:

[ScarabEpic22]

Great to hear, hopefully down the road tuning support will happen. 15 mins, better hope the battery is fully charged before trying to read it!

[GMPX]

15 mins is good for Bosch, it all comes down to how much they (Bosch) limit the read speeds, it's a very different process to where we can use our own bootloaders for the reading, this is not possible on Bosch systems.
For example, these Bosch ECM's have 2Mb of flash with a 15 minute read time, on the E39/E78 they have 3Mb, but we are reading them using EFILive's own bootloader..............in about 2:15, crazy.

[gmh308]

15 mins is good for Bosch, it all comes down to how much they (Bosch) limit the read speeds, it's a very different process to where we can use our own bootloaders for the reading, this is not possible on Bosch systems.
For example, these Bosch ECM's have 2Mb of flash with a 15 minute read time, on the E39/E78 they have 3Mb, but we are reading them using EFILive's own bootloader..............in about 2:15, crazy.

Ve haf vays of frustrating your efforts to tune us herr kraft werkers. :)

Does this mean BMW's & Mercs might be a future option?

[GMPX]

Does this mean BMW's & Mercs might be a future option?
No chance, same hardware, but different in many ways.

[Tre-Cool]

how about the like's of some of the hyundai car's like the i30's they run a bosch ecu.

[GMPX]

No, same deal with them, we are just sticking with Bosch as used on GM.

[gmtech16450yz]

OMG Ross, I'm crossing my fingers that I might actually be able to tune our '09 CTS 3.6 SIDI!!! I just read it out and it seemed to read ok, also read out the T43 but that's been readable and editable for awhile now. I'll email you the file to see if anything can be done with it.

Thanks Ross!

[GMPX]

Thanks to everyone for sending in the files they have read so far. The good news (for us) is nobody has run in to any troubles and the typical read times are about 12-13 minutes on all three ECM types and year models.
We've had files sent in from all varieties and year models of cars, from SAAB's to the latest Cadillac's, so please keep up the good work.

Cheers,
Ross

[gmtech16450yz]

Hey Ross, I just had a "Duh" moment! I was so excited about the possibility of tuning the 3.6DI motors I forgot all about another big market for you to tap. The 2.0 Turbo DI motors, or "LNF's". There are tons of guys (me included) tuning LNF's with some other software (that shall remain nameless), but they've been pretty much ignored for quite a while now. (Years actually.) What is needed is fuel control for bigger turbo's and higher hp, plus a bunch of other tables that we know are accessible but the "other" guys don't want to bother adding into the tuning software. The tables that we have access to are extremely limited, it's gotten the LNF's to over 400whp but only with 3rd party tuning on top of a modified tune, sometimes on top of a GM accessory tune. That means some of these guys are spending tuning money in 3 different places to get what they want. I know plenty would be thrilled to have a solution that covers everything, and with better support.

Bottom line is if there's any way you can support these ECM's, there could be a pretty big number of guys jumping ship to switch to EFILive for tuning. These motors with the Bosch E69 are in Cobalts, HHRs, Saturn Skys and Pontiac Solstices. Now yes, I realize these are phased out platforms, but the LNF motor is still living on, probably for a long time in the new Buicks as the LHU with a Delphi ECM. That tells me there will still be motors and turbos being made for guys doing engine swaps, and when the new ECM's get locked from tuning or not supported by anyone the older Bosch ECM's might still be a viable system to use. There are a bunch of people using these motors in sand rails, Jeeps and crawlers, tube frame custom built stuff, etc. 500hp out of a 2.0L will keep a lot of guys using this drivetrain and Bosch ECM for awhile.

I've got 2 E69 files I can send you right now, an '07 and '08 2.0L LNF. I'm sure if you wanted or could use more there'd be a bunch of guys willing to help out with this. Sorry if I've said anything inappropriate in here (mentioning other tuning software vendors), or if this shouldn't have been in the forum but in a PM. If so feel free to delete it and send me a PM.

Thanks Ross!

[GMPX]

I'll start by saying that what the LNF tuners want is what scares people away. Bosch systems are the hardest things to work with (that I've come across), I don't know the ME961 systems that well, I know a number of people who do because they specialise in European car tuning and they always seem to struggle too when you get these builds that push the ECM far beyond what the original design spec was. We do need to weigh up if it is worth our time as I would suggest Bosch will be gone from GM's cars in 2012, all replaced by the new Delphi ECM's. So we are really only looking at a 4-5 year run on 3 different ECM types (E55, E69 & E77).
It's easier (and cheaper) to learn from others mistakes, perhaps HPT felt the R&D time they invested in the Bosch DI systems vs sales did not warrant further additions.
I may still stand to be corrected here, but the claim these many of the Bosch ECM's can't be read appears to be proven wrong with our beta release, I have reads sent in from all models years from 2005 through to the latest 2011 cars from all three Bosch ECM types. At some point we will sit down and analyse all the files to see how hard this might be.
But no promises or time frames, we have our 2011 support map already full, these weren't even on it a few weeks ago :shock:

If you are going to send files in we would prefer stock tunes.

Cheers,
Ross

[gmtech16450yz]

Thanks for being understanding Ross, I know the Bosch support request has been a tough one. I'll send you a couple stock tune files when I get a chance. I did read out the '08 this evening, it read fine, took about 13 minutes.

Thanks again!

[GMPX]

Yep, 12 to 13 minutes is about right. It could be faster, but Bosch didn't implement the comms correctly (not the first time with them!)

Cheers,
Ross

[VortechC5]

I just ran across this thread. I sure would like to see LNF support.

I have a 07 2.0 LNF Sky that has the GMPP Stage II tune in it. I can read it and send it to you if it would be helpful.

[GMPX]

I have a 07 2.0 LNF Sky that has the GMPP Stage II tune in it. I can read it and send it to you if it would be helpful.
That would be great thanks.

Meanwhile, I guess the attachments below could be considered good progress for the Bosch tuners amongst you....
Successfully flashing E69 & E77 ECM's in EFILive V8.

Cheers,
Ross

[gmtech16450yz]

OMG Christmas in March! (Or at least a little stocking stuffer teaser!)

Thanks a ton Ross, any progress on this is much appreciated and needed.

John

[Ira]

Meanwhile, I guess the attachments below could be considered good progress for the Bosch tuners amongst you....
Successfully flashing E69 & E77 ECM's in EFILive V8.

Cheers,
Ross

Wow, 36 second flashes or am I misreading something?

Ira

[VortechC5]

Ross,

I just read the E69 in my 08 Sky LNF (with GMPP Stage 2 kit). Where would you like me to send the file to?

Mark

[GMPX]

Please Email the tune to support@efilive.com

Thanks

[VortechC5]

On the way now.

[GMPX]

Got the file, thanks.

[slows10]

I though the gm stage2 flash was locked? I thought guys could tune the stock turbo pcm, but if they get the stage2 flashed in it was locked. Is this correct?

[GMPX]

Apparently not, the file appears to be 100% complete.

[VortechC5]

I don't think it is. Recently I was reading about guys getting the stage 2 tune out of the HPT repository and using it. Mine was done by a local Saturn dealer.


I though the gm stage2 flash was locked? I thought guys could tune the stock turbo pcm, but if they get the stage2 flashed in it was locked. Is this correct?

[slows10]

Hmm. Didnt it used to be that these guys had two choices? Either tune the stock turbo pcm with hpt, with not many tables supported. Or get the Gm tune flashed in and not be able to edit it at all. Just run what Gm had put in the Stage2 tune. And that was supposedly lacking in areas. But now I guess you can edit the stage 2 flash.

[slows10]

I don't think it is. Recently I was reading about guys getting the stage 2 tune out of the HPT repository and using it. Mine was done by a local Saturn dealer. Ok thanks. Just tryin to get up to date.

[gmtech16450yz]

Hmm. Didnt it used to be that these guys had two choices? Either tune the stock turbo pcm with hpt, with not many tables supported. Or get the Gm tune flashed in and not be able to edit it at all. Just run what Gm had put in the Stage2 tune. And that was supposedly lacking in areas. But now I guess you can edit the stage 2 flash.

The GM tune can be edited just like the stock tune or any others. Many use it as a base file and modify it with hpt because many of the GM tune changes can't be seen but are beneficial.

[andrewjamesbond1]

Ross,

I'll get you a read on a Pontiac G8 and let you know.

Been waiting on this forever!!!

Thanks!

[SSpdDmon]

I'm another LNF owner and may be persuaded to upgrade to V2 if turbo Cobalt SS's become supported. I'm not a fan of HPT - but felt forced into buying it when I didn't want to settle for GM's canned tune. With just a drop in filter and !cats, I got that little sucker to trap 109mph in the 1/4 mi...and that was with just a few air/fuel/spark changes & leaving the cam tables alone.

Still, after the years of positive EFI Live experience, HPT definitely lacks in the UI and it's a big turn-off for me. That, and their scanner is junk. I mean - you can work with it and the tuning software to accomplish what you set out to do. But, I'd rather have something that's a lot more professional at the end of the day.

[GTPprix]

^ Weak! :D

[SSpdDmon]

^ Weak! :D

It's just my daily. :tongue:

[GTPprix]

I know still fun though!

[L31Sleeper]

Does this mean BMW's & Mercs might be a future option?

Come on guys, I would consider us BLESSED if we could simply tune the full range of GM !!!

Edit: Sorry I'm on the late show.

[slows10]

Exactly^^. Need to focus on finishing started projects before moving on.

[L31Sleeper]

Need to focus on finishing started projects before moving on.

How did you know ?? LOL

Really tho this would be more to pull in more customers rather than for personal use.

[L31Sleeper]

Ross is correct about the Bosh stuff being dated and GM moving on to use the new Delphi stuff.
The only problem is that some of those cars DIED while GM was still using the Bosh ECM.

[slows10]

I agree, im not talking about the bosch crap. Would not even bother with it.

[GMPX]

Unfortunately ones man's rock is another man's gold. We see both sides of the fence all the time, Diesel guys telling us to forget all the gas vehicles and the gas guys telling us to forget the oil burners.
There is a tuning market for nearly everything, the decision we have to make is to assess if it's worth our time to add support for certain controllers. Bosch (to us) is way harder to deal with than the good old Delphi ECM's, so there will have to be a reasonable amount of interest in this to have us commit to making it happen. Having said that, I have been really surprised at the amount of ECM reads so far, especially from our Australian customers.

[L31Sleeper]

Unfortunately ones man's rock is another man's gold. We see both sides of the fence all the time, Diesel guys telling us to forget all the gas vehicles and the gas guys telling us to forget the oil burners.
There is a tuning market for nearly everything, the decision we have to make is to assess if it's worth our time to add support for certain controllers. Bosch (to us) is way harder to deal with than the good old Delphi ECM's, so there will have to be a reasonable amount of interest in this to have us commit to making it happen. Having said that, I have been really surprised at the amount of ECM reads so far, especially from our Australian customers.

Totally understandable. I'm an equal opportunity profiteer, DSP 5 one day and COS 5 the next.
So I wouldn't say help one and forget the other, I think this would help secure the Sport Compact,
Camaro and Cadillac markets.

[andrewjamesbond1]

Hey Ross, any update on the reads? Didn't know if you could say if you were going to try to support "x" ECMs or not :)

[JCA]

Good work ross, 15mins to read the bosch ecm is good i use hpt and it takes like 27mins I have a lot of tunes that have been read with hpt are they of any use i will start reading as many as poss with v2 and send them thu. regards Jason

[GMPX]

We are still working on Cummins, the Bosch ECM won't be considered until that task is complete. I haven't really looked over the files we have yet, but thanks to everyone for sending them in.

[L31Sleeper]

Would this include the New V6 Camaro ?

[L31Sleeper]

Bump !!!!!

[andrewjamesbond1]

I can't wait! Baby V6's getting ripped!

[GMPX]

But no promises or time frames, we have our 2011 support map already full, these weren't even on it a few weeks ago :shock:


Above is a quote from a post I made in March. Nothing has changed on this stance, with the exception that it looks like part of our 2012 will be consumed with other projects.

Given the conjecture on the forum over the last couple of weeks about wanting a defined answer on what we will and won't support, it's probably best to say that it's not looking like we will pursue these Bosch ECM's in 2011. Pushing development into 2012 is doubtful too given the ECM is being replaced as GM move to Flex Fuel on the engines currently supported by the Bosch ECM (these ECM's can't do E85).
We estimate it would take at least 3 months solid work to understand these systems and map them out, that's assuming all goes well. Our development experience with Bosch ECM's on the Duramax left a bad taste so we know nothing will go smoothly. Based on this and the not so overwhelming further request for support (it takes more the 20 people to shout yes please!), consider this on an indefinite hiatus for the moment. We are sorry for this as I know there is a number of people who were looking forward to the possibility of tuning these ECM's with EFILive.

There is some software out of Europe for tuning these Bosch systems, we may continue to develop the flashing process for the E55, E69 & E77 so Autocal could be used on the Bosch ECM's, we've had a few requests just for that function, no editing, just a method of remote flashing.

Cheers,
Ross

[L31Sleeper]

There is some software out of Europe for tuning these Bosch systems, we may continue to develop the flashing process for the E55, E69 & E77 so Autocal could be used on the Bosch ECM's, we've had a few requests just for that function, no editing, just a method of remote flashing.

Cheers,
Ross

Just wondering, How would this be useful ??

Thanx
-Justin

[GMPX]

There seems to be a number of people out there who can tune these Bosch ECM's using one of the various tuning packages for them (from the US or Europe) or just a simple Hex editor.
Suppose you develop a mail order tune for an E77 ECM, you can then use Autocal to deliver the tunes to customers. Autocal doesn't need to understand the maps in the ECM, it just flashes the file in. So in that sense, they don't need EFILive at all apart from using Autocal to deliver a tune.

[ScarabEpic22]

Interesting, for the consumer side it means another package or option must be utilized to flash these ECMs but from EFILive's side, a little work to develop correct read/flash routines and you can sell more AutoCals. Makes sense to me, I might not like it, but it makes sense! Plus it would leave the door open down the road to develop the editing side with a little less work.

[Chuck CoW]

Originally Posted by GMPX
Unfortunately ones man's rock is another man's gold. We see both sides of the fence all the time, Diesel guys telling us to forget all the gas vehicles and the gas guys telling us to forget the oil burners.
There is a tuning market for nearly everything, the decision we have to make is to assess if it's worth our time to add support for certain controllers. Bosch (to us) is way harder to deal with than the good old Delphi ECM's, so there will have to be a reasonable amount of interest in this to have us commit to making it happen. Having said that, I have been really surprised at the amount of ECM reads so far, especially from our Australian customers.

Like that AMAZING T43 that needs soooo many calibration updates in the later years!!!!

Forget NOT your BIGGEST SUPPORTERS!
Chuck CoW

[GMPX]

Like that AMAZING T43 that needs soooo many calibration updates in the later years!!!!

Forget NOT your BIGGEST SUPPORTERS!
Chuck CoW
Chuck, was there nothing on TV last night? Digging up a year old thread. Hey, did you try the new tables for the ECM to help with the T43?

[Chuck CoW]

No, was away in Texas at VARARAM all last week and didn't want to bust up someone's car

testing new stuff..... I'll work on that now that I'm home.

By the way, when you eventually take that Turbo 400 and big block out of your caddy and

install an LSx with a 6L80e I'm not gonna be of much help to you if you don't get me some more

T43 tables to work with!!!

Chuck CoW

[GMPX]

I'm not gonna be of much help to you if you don't get me some more T43 tables to work with!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wzr12gBrXA8

[Chuck CoW]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wzr12gBrXA8

Are you trying to say that I'm an OOMPA-LOOMPA????? ;)

Chuck CoW

[minytrker]

Like that AMAZING T43 that needs soooo many calibration updates in the later years!!!!

Forget NOT your BIGGEST SUPPORTERS!
Chuck CoW


I agree 100%, I dont think its a good business idea to have your customers buying your competitors product. I am getting used to there laylout.

[GMPX]

Have you been following this thread?
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?12079-6L80-TM-removal/page8

[minytrker]

Have you been following this thread?
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?12079-6L80-TM-removal/page8

Yes, unless I missed it it nothing has been released yet to the public and no more CAX files were being sent out. So I am still in the same spot as before using HPT.

[Nemo]

Got a BadTuneFile after reading a 2010 V6 Camaro today... Email Sent to Andrew.

[GMPX]

Nemo, we've had reads sent in from some 2011 V6 Camaro's, so it should work without the badfileformat error. Though I think what is happening is you have read it with V8 then tried to open it in v7.5. This won't work, v7.5 has not been configured in any way to handle these Bosch V6 ECM's. The demand for tuning these you would think might be high, it just doesn't appear that way. The ability for EFILive to read the Bosch E77 & E69 ECM's has been out for over a year and I can't say that we've been flooded with files asking for support. I would suggest this might be why HPT quit working on them too.
If you get your hands on a 2012 V6 Camaro, different story, they switched to the E39 ECM which we do support.

[ScarabEpic22]

So are these ECMs still on indefinite hiatus?

Know you're busy with the 6.7L Cummins stuff still and getting 03-05 SCI and 09+ Cummins stuff ready to go plus keeping up with current GM stuff. So plenty of time to crack these lovely Bosch ECMs, right? :D

EDIT: Just saw you beat me to it Ross...

[GMPX]

So are these ECMs still on indefinite hiatus?
Pretty much so, the small interest we got was people wanting to bolt turbo's on and run them in 2bar, as far as I know GM's versions of these ECM's (at least on the Camaro, Cadillac) were never written for 2bar. I couldn't imagine even contemplating doing such a thing as writing a 2bar OS for them.

[kangsta]

HPT have added enough to the LNF side of things which is the same PCM for the tuners to be happy. As for further expansion I'd say its because they're too busy constantly making 2bar Cos for E38/E67s and trying to get their Dodge stuff off the ground (years in the making...)

C'mon Ross, now you have the T43 TCC slip tables taken care off - time to work on the sly on the Bosch stuff. A different kind of headache from the Cummins stuff would be a welcome change? ;-) how about using it as a test for the v8 editor when it comes to fruition

[kangsta]

not to mention those '08+ E77 and E69 controllers that HPT cant even read. People have given up asking HPT for it as they're focused on Dodge and not many people know EFILive can read them all, and those who do know theres no editing for it.

[ScarabEpic22]

Yep, if you pursue it Id love to see a COS for the LNF (if it needs it, already is boosted from GM so might be a 2Bar OS already?).

What really bothered me was the Bosch ECM in the 10-11 Camaro V6s, now that its an E39 for 2012 I know we can tune those!

[kangsta]

COS requests are what Ross is afraid off! People use the GMPP OS for LNF with good results. Just editing for stock OS would be good, people have had it really good for GM OS's with EFILive and HPT. Back in the old days you had to make do with the stock OS with scaling etc lol. They still worked pretty good. Most of the tables with Bosch have rescaleble axis so its pretty configurable up to the internal calculation limits.

[swingtan]

To be honest, I've really lost interest in these now I'm playing with the E39. I had the opportunity to work on a VE V6 that was getting cams, twin TB intake and lots of other work, but in the end I simply told the guy to get an after market ECM to manage the engine. Less pain and more control than the stock unit could manage.

Simon.

[wesam]

I sent E77 file out of stock 2007 Caprice LS with 3.6L
any updates regarding editing those ECMs

[GMPX]

Thanks for sending the tune in, but there has been no change of heart with supporting the Bosch ECM's.

[mistermike]

I'm wondering if a forthcoming iteration of V8 will be able to get my Bosch dishwasher to give an extra rinse cycle?

[wesam]

Will there any near future support for E69 ?
since its for 2010-2011 V6 camaro and for 2006-2011 GMC Acadia
there will be a lot of interested customers

[GMPX]

We are not currently working on them wesam. We've had the ability to read those ECM's for quit some time and little interest has been shown from that perspective.

[Chuck CoW]

We are not currently working on them wesam. We've had the ability to read those ECM's for quit some time and little interest has been shown from that perspective.

As I work on MANY V8 CAMAROS........ 2 or 3 people ask me every week about the V6 cars....caddys...etc. While it's possible to get them done them,

It would be much easier to keep things in house......

The economy is such that any support your offer is just simply money in the bank for your customers!

Thank you.
Chuck CoW