Noob needs help with Roadrunner

[WeathermanShawn]

GJ, just looking over your Tune in greater detail..

B1301- Do you have EGR?

B3636-Have you been enabling 'Lean Cruise' ?

B4001-Your Injector flow rate is slightly different than the LS1 injectors. Its pretty minor, but I am a little curious about that.

B5001- I know we have covered this Table in great detail..are you using a Truck MAF? This is the Table where we have had most of the problem and still needs a lot of work to run closed-loop (that Table currently in your tune will greatly under-report your Airflow).

As Joe stated fix those out of range. Looks like that DTC P1336 also needs some attention.

[Gjohnson]

GJ, just looking over your Tune in greater detail..

B1301- Do you have EGR?

B3636-Have you been enabling 'Lean Cruise' ?

B4001-Your Injector flow rate is slightly different than the LS1 injectors. Its pretty minor, but I am a little curious about that.

B5001- I know we have covered this Table in great detail..are you using a Truck MAF? This is the Table where we have had most of the problem and still needs a lot of work to run closed-loop (that Table currently in your tune will greatly under-report your Airflow).

As Joe stated fix those out of range. Looks like that DTC P1336 also needs some attention.

-I'm not running an EGR, but I have to log the EGR to get my W02 readings. I am running an analog setup for the LM-1.

-I have not been enabling Lean Cruise, because I was under the impression that my tune did not have this feature.

-I am curious about the injector flow as well, what should I do here?

-Yes, I am running a 5 wire truck MAF. The table in that tune has no modification to the B5001 table at all, because I reverted back to the original tune.

-I will take a look at P1336.

[WeathermanShawn]

I believe when B1301 is Active, then Spark Table B5907 is enabled. Quite frankly I have not looked through your logs to see if that amount of Spark is being added..but is that what you wanted? Your engine is expecting a cooler mixture and adds a lot of Spark. Think it over.

To keep 'Tune' discipline I might change B3636 back to 412 (KM) instead of 1. No need to attempt to activate that Table. You never know what unintended consequences it may cause.

We will check with Joe on B4001. Maybe the stock values are wrong, or it is statistically insignificant.

I had no idea that your B5001 was sloped so differently than the LS1 MAF Table. Technically CALC.VET via SELBEN's would indicate it, but when I was saying add +18% to stock, I assumed you had the LS1 MAF Table in there. I would prefer the LS1 MAF Table in there to begin with, or we will get very confused when talking % differences. Plus the LS1 MAF Table will correct a lot of your MAF under-reporting.

I think we just need to start with a Tune that eliminates your out of limit parameters, corrects EGR and Lean Cruise, IFR (if needed) and MAF Table. At least then when we modify it, we are all on the same page. It may not address PE Mode/WOT, but closed-loop will be a lot better.

Can you post-up a 'cleaned-up' tune version prior to your next log?

[Gjohnson]

Alright well, I tried logging with a revised tune removing all OOR's and changing some of the values from the previous posts. I'm not sure what is wrong, but I could only log for a few minutes then I had to pull over and load a diffrent tune. I had major powerloss with this tune and I also noticed that when I hit the gas, my Spark Deg would drop to 0. Here is the tune and corresponding log:

1053410535


Now, just for refrence I loaded this tune and made a log on the rest of the trip.

1053610537

[joecar]

GJ,

Into 12212156_0004 copy the MAF table from _0002 and save it as _0005; take a log using _0005.

[Gjohnson]

Do you have any idea why I would have the loss in power and why the spark deg is showing 0 under throttle.

[joecar]

I name my log files like this: 12212156_0004_0001, 12212156_0004_0002, etc.

[joecar]

Do you have any idea why I would have the loss in power and why the spark deg is showing 0 under throttle.The MAF being wrong is causing the cylinder airmass to be wrong, then the wrong spark is looked up, and also the MAP and MAF sanity tables are exceeded.

[joecar]

Remove the pids IBPW1, IBPW2, IAT.
Add the pids HO2S11, HO2S21, DYNAIR_DMA, DYNCYLAIR_DMA.

This should bring your pid channel count to 24... if it is not 24 let me know.

[WeathermanShawn]

Do you have any idea why I would have the loss in power and why the spark deg is showing 0 under throttle.

Wow! I don't know if that was an Engine Protection Mode or what.

GJ, don't take it personally but your VE Table is a disaster. See what is happening is you did not use the LS1 MAF Table I recommended (you used your old one). That drastically lowered your computation of the cylinder air (MAF). But this proves a vehicle uses the VE Table also which is MAP referenced. Those values probably exceeded the MAF/MAP Rationality test, and threw you into Engine Protection Mode.

I would use the correct MAF Table and just use the 2002 Camaro LS1 Stock VE Table until you get this straightened out.

[WeathermanShawn]

Or you can use the VE Table I developed for lightly cammed LS1's. A lot better than stock and probably would work very well for your Tuning trials (normally in Idle section)..

[Gjohnson]

Ok, so just to verify before I start. I should start completley over using the LS1-M6 base tune you provided above or should I take my existing tune (or even my original tune) and just copy the Ve and MAF tables from the tune you listed above? What would provide the best baseline to start with?

[WeathermanShawn]

O.K. to avoid total confusion..I propose the following:

Lets keep the numbering sequence you have going on your latest Tune.I.E., 0004, 0005, etc..Lets try to never go back to a prior tune from this point. We will just make sequentially new ones as we alter the tune.

I attacked Your Latest Tune (now numbered #005) with a new VE Table (from M6 Base Tune) and took a stock LS1 MAF Table with +12% added through the entire scale. Everything else was left alone. So, its for your 5.3L, your spark, your PE, your Trans changes etc. It only has two vital changes: The VE table and MAF.

Run this Tune. If for some bizarre reason it still wants to go to Engine Protection Mode, then its something else in the Tune creating problems.

Run this Tune:

[mr.prick]

Hi mr. prick.

I think he has been carrying DTC-1336 in every log. Are you saying that is causing his problem or he just needs to fix it?

I'm not sure what you meant by the last statement. The two Airflows have been pretty divergent up to this point. But on that log, he failed the MAF and CYLAIR & DYNCYLAIR are the same. Thats normal when you fail the MAF.

What are you saying?
I seem to be lost in this thread now. :doh2:
I thought the he was doing your MAF_VE fill in thing.

Fix the DTC, use the WBO2 to at least rough the VE & MAF in OL then see where LTFTs are.
My 2¢

[WeathermanShawn]

mr. prick, I think we have all been lost in this thread at some point..:grin:.

He originally started out with the CALC.VET but during PE Mode/WOT he has went extremely lean. Bottom line there is some mechanical issue not allowing him to properly tune.

We have tried the following:

1. CALC.VET (only worked during closed-loop).
2. CLSD (did not work)
3. New Wideband location (did not work)
4. Calibrated Wideband (did not work).

Plus there have been some issues loading up the proper MAF Table..

Bottom line is we are just trying to get him back to the original CALC.VE for closed-loop, until he can figure out what is his mechanical issue.

For readers following along. Its not a Tune issue..its mechanical. Sorry if people are lost..We are just trying to get him started over again..(I know 25 pages of thread)..:).

[Gjohnson]

Ok, well I apparently have more issues. I can't seem to get a good log today. Shawn I loaded the tune that you created and couldn't get a decent log because I had the same issue I was dealing with this morning. The spark deg kept zeroing out. Here's the short log.

10551

When that happened I assumed it was something diffrent in the tune, so I swapped in an older tune and was able to drive to basketball practice. After practice I sat in the parking lot and copied the Ve table and Maf table from the base LS1 tune you posted over to my original tune and started out again to pick up my kids. When I started I had the same issue, 0 value for spark deg. That log and tune:

1055210553

Didn't help at all. Now it doesn't seem to matter what tune I have. I loaded the tune from the SD log I had the other night. I know this because the MAF value's were still set to fail and I still have no power and 0 for Spark deg.

Am I still running in reduced engine mod for some reason or is this a MAF issue?

[WeathermanShawn]

I think what might help is if you logged GM.CYLAIR.DMA and GM.DYNCYLAIR.DMA. Maybe you can drop Injector flow for now..whatever it takes to get to 24 channels or less.

You see even Engine Protection Mode should give you at least 8 degrees of timing. It almost appears to be calculating over 1.20 g/cyl of air and is giving you halfway in between High-Octane and Low octane Spark. Which is totally bizarre. Like the MAF is toast..

Are we 100% sure we wired the MAF back up (correctly)?

[WeathermanShawn]

GJ, you also pulled some plugs the other day.

Double-check plug wires and connections..I'm still trying to figure this one out..:confused:.

[Gjohnson]

Ok, what should I do to make the car driveable agian.
The wiring should be fine, but I'll double check again. All I did to fail the MAF was remove pin 31 (MAF signal) from the red PCM connector. Last night I plugged the pin back in and reset the MAF fail frequencies to put the car back to normal mode.

What's weird to me is, I had this issue first thing this morning and when I shut the car off and installed the old tune it drove fine. The same thing happened after work and when I shut the car off and loaded a different tune I was good again. Now I'm not sure if its the tunes?

[WeathermanShawn]

Bizarre. I never fool around with some of the 'Out of range' Axle changes, so I have no idea if that throws it into an engine protection mode.

O.K., well load the last usable Tune you had..out of range limits and all. It will be easy enough to change the VE table and or MAF.

Ironically on your last log, the Trims looked really good. I think the fattened up MAF Table is better, but lets get this car running first..

[Gjohnson]

Well, I just ran out to the garage and ran the scan tool on the PCM and I am storing codes for P0103 Maf sensor circuit high. Is my maf giving me all these issues???

[WeathermanShawn]

Well normally when the MAF is failed, its P0101 or P0102..because we set it to fail low.

Never seen high, but I take it is a current DTC?

[WeathermanShawn]

GJ, I know you can read too..but here you go:http:///www.obd-codes.com/p0103 (http://www.obd-codes.com/p0103)

[Gjohnson]

Well normally when the MAF is failed, its P0101 or P0102..because we set it to fail low.

Never seen high, but I take it is a current DTC?

I'm really not sure.

I just went back out and loaded and old tune. 10555

I started her up cleared all codes and logged it idling and it seems ok again. I can't do to much reving or leave the house since it's 10:30 pm and my kidos are sleep, but here is the log.

10556

[WeathermanShawn]

Too bad the kids are asleep..:grin:.

No, there is still a big problem. I have your ECT at -38C, your IAT at -38C and your Spark at -63.5.

This has to be a wiring issue..or PCM?

In fact every Parameter looks messed up..

[Gjohnson]

I'll look over that log again. But I just went out again and copied the stock VE table and MAF table to the last tune I loaded to see what I've got. Here's the tune I made and log. Everything seems OK.

1055810559

[Gjohnson]

Too bad the kids are asleep..:grin:.

No, there is still a big problem. I have your ECT at -38C, your IAT at -38C and your Spark at -63.5.

This has to be a wiring issue..or PCM?

In fact every Parameter looks messed up..

Wow, that log is really messed. That's not what it was showing on my laptop when I was recording. Anyway, you can see with this last log, everything seems to be fine now and I am running the stock LS1 VE table and Maf table that Shawn posted earlier.

[WeathermanShawn]

O.K, we know Tune 007 is good as of April 28, 2011 11:10 CST!!!

Just to keep any readers who might still be following along, fully informed..

The VE Table and MAF Table are from WeathermanShawn's Base M6 Cam Tune found here:http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14439-Idle-Tips-amp-Tricks

The rest is GJ's Tune..

GJ, I am not sure what caused it all, but if this Tune holds, it may just need some slight adjustments still to the MAF Table..hopefully less than 4%. This does not cure your PE Mode/WOT..just a sane tune to keep you running until you can figure out the fuel starvation problem..

[Gjohnson]

Ok, well I'm a little upset, because I had a great log going about 10 or 15 mins long when all of a sudden while driving down the street, my laptop chimes and starts downloading a windows update and just restarts. Yes, complete log lost. So I have a log, but it's only a few minutes long and I had to start logging at around 65 mph on the highway.

10561

[WeathermanShawn]

Well is not that how life goes some time. I think I had that happen once or twice too..

But, I can tell a few things from your log. I think we are pretty close on Trims and the MAF Calibration. Your Trims will probably average out to be ~-3 to -4%, but for now that may be close enough.

I can see at some point the actual Values in your VE Table will change over my original estimation. Probably due to your Engine size and cam.

I think we can wrap up your closed-loop stage with 1-2 more logs. If you can safely drive 30-45 minutes, perhaps up to 50% Throttle and 4000 Rpms (just use lower gears to keep engine load down) then at least we can map out a better VE Table.

If you can remember, please log GM.CYLAIR.DMA and GM.DYNCLYAIR.DMA or just use all your original CALC.VET Pids.

Thanks..

[Gjohnson]

Sorry, I'll try to inclued those PIDs in the next log. Now, keep in mind I am learning and could be way off but I was looking over this log and in the pic below you can see a couple of points where the AFR leans out sharply. In the log, the MAF freq seems to be steady as well as the MAF Grams and injector base pulse. Would that lead me to believe that the leaning issues I'm having are fuel pressure related, since it doesn't seem to correspond with the MAF in these areas?????

10562

Just thinking out loud.

[WeathermanShawn]

Good call.

See this is what is so bizarre about your Tune/mechanical issues. That could be your wideband not operating properly (LTFT's look good at the point), to an exhaust leak, to fuel pressure etc. See that also looks like the area where your EGR is enabled, so I don't know if the additional Spark increase creates a misfire.

Normally EGR should not be enabled. I suppose we could always zero out Table B5907.

Also I think we should change B0120 from 4000 to 400. I want to make 100% sure no VE Table influence is creating those lean spikes.

GJ, I'll be honest. I think we are making a lot of Tune changes to cover mechanical issues. My first instinct on those lean spikes would be an exhaust leak. There is no way I can know that, and you could tune for months and never get it right.

So if we can't tune out those lean spikes you are simply going to have to park this car until the mechanical issues are addressed. Even closed-loop would be unwise.

Does that sound O.K.?

[WeathermanShawn]

As a courtesy I made those two changes in Tune 0008. Please look it over.

B0120: Changed from 4000 to 400
B5907: Changed EGR Spark to Zero (0).

[Gjohnson]

Good call.

See this is what is so bizarre about your Tune/mechanical issues. That could be your wideband not operating properly (LTFT's look good at the point), to an exhaust leak, to fuel pressure etc. See that also looks like the area where your EGR is enabled, so I don't know if the additional Spark increase creates a misfire.

Normally EGR should not be enabled. I suppose we could always zero out Table B5907.

Also I think we should change B0120 from 4000 to 400. I want to make 100% sure no VE Table influence is creating those lean spikes.

GJ, I'll be honest. I think we are making a lot of Tune changes to cover mechanical issues. My first instinct on those lean spikes would be an exhaust leak. There is no way I can know that, and you could tune for months and never get it right.

So if we can't tune out those lean spikes you are simply going to have to park this car until the mechanical issues are addressed. Even closed-loop would be unwise.

Does that sound O.K.?

I understand where your coming from. Of course, I would rather not park the car if at all possible, but it is what it is. Hopefully I will have a fuel pressure testing kit by the end of the night and if all goes well today with my assistant manager at work, I will be able to start my vacation tonight and have extra time for the next few days to address some of these issues.


As a courtesy I made those two changes in Tune 0008. Please look it over.

B0120: Changed from 4000 to 400
B5907: Changed EGR Spark to Zero (0).

Man, talk about going above and beyond. You are the man Shawn, thanks again for all the help.

[joecar]

GJ, when you edit the .tun file and flash it in, make sure to use cal-only flash (i.e. you do not need to use full flash).

[Gjohnson]

GJ, when you edit the .tun file and flash in it, make sure to use cal-only flash (i.e. you do not need to use full flash).

Will do Joe, thanks for the insight.

Well, I finally got off work tonight so I made a log on the way to pick up the kids. The log was actually looking pretty good, until about the last 5 mins when the MAF threw a few codes and started leaning out the system. I cleared all stored codes last night and after the log tonight there were 3 p0101 MAF Sensor performance codes stored.

10584

[WeathermanShawn]

GJ, I'll look over your log in closer detail this evening.

I think we can make 1 more simple MAF and VE Table change. Your new VE Values look like they are in all the 90% area from idle to 3000 Rpms. Like your MAF does not change much when you hit the throttle.

I would just assume those MAF codes are real. When we changed B0120 to 400 rpms, that excludes any VE Table influence..so its not a MAF/MAP rationality issue throwing your MAF codes.

My goal would be to just get you a 'suburban tote around the kids till you get it fixed tune'.

Hey, I got a kid too..so I'm not making fun of you..I don't race with her in the car also..:grin:.

Edit: Some of the lean spikes are also DFCO. We will disable that also (next tune) just to make it easier to tune..

[WeathermanShawn]

GJ, its just as easy for me to change the Tune and have you review it. Far less chance of a communication error.

Tune 009 Changes: Please Review..

1. B0101 VE Table: +20% All Entries (it now looks close to your original Tuner's VE table).
2. B5001 MAF Table: -3 % MAF Table (now maxes at 477 g/s).
3. B3308 DFCO-M6 Disabled
4. B3313 DFCO Disabled

Your VE Values were demanding a big increase in the lower RPM's/MAP, probably since we have added so much to the MAF and your cam etc. Disabling DFCO just means your injectors will not shut off during shifts and acceleration. It gets rid of lean spikes that filtering can not always get.

There is not a whole lot of tricks left..if you can hit a little higher in RPMS (stay below 50% Throttle and 4000 Rpms if possible on your next log.

Thats all I got..

[Gjohnson]

Thanks Shawn, I'll check it out and give it a shot in the morning. I'm still concerned with the MAF issues. I may pull it off tonight and shoot some MAF cleaner through it.

[Gjohnson]

Hey guys, I was looking over my log again and 1 thing just stood out to me. Now I haven't been able to get with my neighbor to build a cold air box, so hopefully I will get it built in the next few days. But it seems I MAF was doing fine while driving on the highway or when the engine was cold. When the temps started rising I started having problems with the MAF reading. Of course the 5 wire Truck MAF has the IAT built in and it seems like I really started seeing issues when the IAT reached over 40* C or 104*F. It really went crazy around 54* C or 129.2* F. Could this be th culprit of my MAF issues??

[WeathermanShawn]

GJ:

The answer of course is yet. Very high IAT's like you are enduring is called "heatsoak". It wrecks havoc with tuning. You notice in my Filters I exclude low and high ECT's. You can do the same with IAT's, but you would have a short log.

If you look at the CALC.VE(T) Formula and plug in numbers you can see how the same MAF Frequency with a different dynamic air temperature creates a different Airflow and resultant fueling.

{SAE.MAF.gps}*({GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA.C}+273.15)/({SAE.RPM}*{SAE.MAP.kPa})*3445.2/displacement()"

Now you know why we made such a big deal about your IAT's. We almost always want the IAT to be near the ambient temperature when tuning.

P.S., its good you are seeing these correlations and thinking them through. You are starting to think like a Tuner..:)

[Gjohnson]

Ok, made a quick log on the way to work. I tried to give it more thorttle in the this log and stay in the gears longer, although I had an issue when getting on the highway. I was trying to keep the throttle under 50% and the RPMS under 4000, but the got up there quickly. At alittle over 4000 RPMS the car started to lean out pretty bad, so I immediately got out of the gas.


10590

10589

[WeathermanShawn]

GJ, good morning.

Can you attach the actual log?

See what is odd on that screenshot is your wideband AFR shows lean, then very lean. But if I understand your set-up your wideband is also acting as your narrowband. And it is perfectly trimming around your stoich value (B3601: 14.68)

[Gjohnson]

Yeah I attached the wrong the file by mistake so I updated the post.

Shawn, I have no clue which was is wright. I didn't see that. I'm at work and the battery is dieing on my laptop so I'll have to take a look at that later this afternoon when I get home. Do both N02 readings show 14.7? That is strange.

[WeathermanShawn]

Yes, I still wonder if your wideband is giving false readings.

In closed-loop your AFR should be a nice little sine curve..very tight around stoich. I attached an AFR Log (Top Right) at 70 Mph closed-loop. See the difference?

F.Y.I., your log showed bogus data again. What is causing that?

[WeathermanShawn]

I know it is a few more bucks, but I wish I could convince everyone to go to a serial wideband. Its plug & play..no offsets to worry about. Fast, accurate. For ~20.00 TA Quickness sells cables that make plug and play so much easier.

Can you borrow or get another wideband? I have never seen a WO2 reading like that in closed-loop..and at the same time you are trimming almost perfectly.

I am saying your wideband AFR and narrowband trimming did not remotely match..

[Gjohnson]

I don't know what is causing the bogus data. Maybe it's windows 7????? Right after loging the data, I took a quick look at the log and everything was fine, but now that I've saved the log and reloaded it it's gone to crap.

I have about 10% battery life left so I tried to pull the log up again and its all screwed up like your pic above. My computer is telling me I need to restart for a windows update, so I will try that.

[Gjohnson]

I know it is a few more bucks, but I wish I could convince everyone to go to a serial wideband. Its plug & play..no offsets to worry about. Fast, accurate. For ~20.00 TA Quickness sells cables that make plug and play so much easier.

Can you borrow or get another wideband? I have never seen a WO2 reading like that in closed-loop..and at the same time you are trimming almost perfectly.

I am saying your wideband AFR and narrowband trimming did not remotely match..

Well, if you remember the LM-1 that I have can be hooked up using serial port. It has a serial to vga type cable and then I even have a vga to usb cable. I had to hook it up using the analog stereo output because I don't have a Flash scan. I'm using an Autotap.

[WeathermanShawn]

Yea, it could be a memory problem. I still use XP on a older net-book in addition to a laptop with Windows 7. Nothing more irritating than a Windows Update while logging.:mad:.

GJ, I could still tell a lot from your screenshot. Was it my imagination or did your MAF frequency look steadier? Well, tune-wise your Trims look pretty good. There is a slight discrepancy between banks, but overall its very close. So, tuning-wise we may have gotten as close as we can. It looked like DFCO was disabled, so I have only one more change for you to try:

Tune: 0010

B4105: O2 Switch-points changed to 450 mv. (450mv=stoich~14.7 AFR...makes for a cleaner Trim pattern and smoother VE Table).

Also if you change the following Pids:

1. Delete SAE.SPARKADV

2. Add GM.HO2S11
3. Add GM.HO2S21

Roger that on the V2. We need accurate wideband readings, so think it over how you can do that. If that WO2 reading is correct, the car has to sit. Its way too lean. I personally think the sensor is cooked. I actually believe your NB's and trimming are accurate in closed-loop. But, you need a working sensor for PE Mode/WOT.

[Gjohnson]

I'll try swapping out the W02 tomorrow and see if the other sensor gives diffrent readings. I tried the sanity test that Joe posted a few pages back and the W02 I had been using passed so I stuck with the same sensor. We'll see what the other one displays.

[joecar]

The other wideband sanity test is this (as Shawn said above): in closed loop the LTFT's keep the AFR oscillating tightly on stoichiometric, the wideband should show this (see Shawn's pic above).

[Gjohnson]

Alright, well I just finished checking the fuel pressure and everything seems fine. I tested the car while idleing in the garage. I hooked up the gauge and as soon as the car is started the fuel pressure shoots to 60 psi and sits steady. If I tap the throttle repeatedly you can see the pressure bounce some between 58 psi and 60. Under more aggresive acceleration, say a hard throttle from 800 rpms to 3500rpms and hold steady the psi would drop to about 53psi initially and then peg at 60 psi for the remainer of the throttle period.

[joecar]

(53-58)/60*100% = -8.3% that's no good, this represents an IFR error of 5% or more.

The acceptable range is ±2 psi at worst... i.e. 56-60 psi.

Check wiring from fuel pump relay to fuel pump, check for voltage drop, should be less than 0.2V.

[Gjohnson]

Ok, I may have to do some more testing tomorrow and see where I am. I just went back out there to test voltage and the voltage started at 13.86 upon start up and after it idled for about 20 seconds it had rose to 14.02 volts. When I would give it gas the voltage would drop to around 13.96. It seems the longer the car sat and idled the less the voltage would fluctuate when giving it throttle. I also tried to pay close attention to the pressure gauge and when giving it throttle it really didn't move much. Around 58 to 60 psi when accelerating. Now when I started blipping the throttle quickly again, around 5 or 6 quick revs from 800 rps to around 2700 rpms the psi would drop quickly to the 54/53 range and quickly recover. If you press the pedal as if normally accelerating there is no drop in psi. Of course I need to take the car out tommorow and get gas, considering the gas light came on when I started testing, but what else should I be looking for?

[joecar]

GJ,

Don't just measure the voltage at the pump...

measure the voltage drop between the relay and the pump, if it is greater than 0.2V then the wiring/connections have high resistance

(high resistance limits current flow, limited current flow limits pump speed/flow).

[mr.prick]

Ok, made a quick log on the way to work. I tried to give it more thorttle in the this log and stay in the gears longer, although I had an issue when getting on the highway. I was trying to keep the throttle under 50% and the RPMS under 4000, but the got up there quickly. At alittle over 4000 RPMS the car started to lean out pretty bad, so I immediately got out of the gas.


10590



10589


WTF! is going on in that log?

[joecar]

WTF! is going on in that log?See post #297...
His PCM/RoadRunner may have gotten into into some knot...

[Gjohnson]

GJ,

Don't just measure the voltage at the pump...

measure the voltage drop between the relay and the pump, if it is greater than 0.2V then the wiring/connections have high resistance

(high resistance limits current flow, limited current flow limits pump speed/flow).

My fuel pump relay is located in my glove box, so when I was measuring voltage I connected my ground to the ground on the main relay and the power lead I connected to the switched voltage lead on the fuel pump relay. So If I understand what your saying, I need to open the trunk and check the voltage on the pump to see if there is a voltage drop at the other end.

[joecar]

Yes... voltage drop.

[Gjohnson]

Ok, well I clamped on to the plug wire at the fuel pump to check the voltage. At the fuel pump voltage seems to range from 11.87 volts to 12.02 volts. So it seems I have an issue here, right?

[Gjohnson]

http://silviav8forums.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2834&highlight=fuel+pump+wiring


To turn on the Fuel pump the Nissan ECM sends a ground signal to the Fuel Pump Relay.

However instead of a ground signal the LS1 PCM sends a 12V signal to the Fuel Pump Relay.

This is obviously a problem.... Some people recommend hooking up a relay to the output of the PCM to reverse the signal, Personally I think that's a waste of a relay and a lot of extra wiring that doesn't need to happen.

Anyone who has asked me about this would know that I recommend simply changing the required input signal on the existing Nissan Fuel Pump Relay.

I may need to rewire my fuel pump. I assume the double relay could be the cause of the voltage diffrence. Maybe, I should run new wires directly from my new fuel pump relay in my glove box to the fuel pump connector plug in the trunk?

[joecar]

Ok, well I clamped on to the plug wire at the fuel pump to check the voltage. At the fuel pump voltage seems to range from 11.87 volts to 12.02 volts. So it seems I have an issue here, right?Your battery voltage would be 13.6V-14.6V with engine running...

you are seeing 11.87V at the pump...

the voltage drop is (13.6-11.87) = 1.73V this represents high resistance in the wiring/connections/relay, it limits the fuel pump current (prevents the pump from moving sufficient fuel when demanded).

[Gjohnson]

Alright, well I'm back from vacation and I've got some new goodies from a buddy. V2 Flashscan showed up today as well as a MAF and fuel pressure sensor. So, I spent some time installing the new sensor, Maf and upgrading to Efi V8. Now, I was planning on getting a log in the morning, but I can't seem to figure out how to load pid options in the V2. Can someone give me some insight on this? I have updated my Calc.pid text for the V2 and fuel pressure sensor using the EGR now. Thanks for any help. I've been looking through tutorials and the help content for the past 3 hours but I must be missing something. It seems to work fine in pass thru mode, but I would like to leave the laptop at home in the morning.

[Gjohnson]

Ok, well I had a scheduling mishap this morning and showed up to work about 3 hours too early. The positive point is, I was able to get 2 logs made. The 1st log is a cold startup and drive to work and then the car is shut off for about 5 mins, then a return log home. Still have IAT temp issues and I'm trying to get use to the V2. I logged using the standard Calc.vet pids.


10817

10816

[WeathermanShawn]

Hi GJ:

I'm not an expert on BBL, so forgive my no response.

There is not much to evaluate on your recent log as it was all at low TPS. Its your PE Mode/WOT that was the issue, but you never hit it.

Did you switch to the serial connection on wideband?

Also, if you could please use the Pids that are located on Page 1 of this thread (or in the Tutorial) it will be a lot easier to evaluate.

So are your fueling problems solved?

[WeathermanShawn]

GJ, what little bit I could tell, is that every time you gave it throttle, it went lean (Lambda).

Your Trims were more negative..at least that changed..:confused:.

[Gjohnson]

Hi GJ:

I'm not an expert on BBL, so forgive my no response.

There is not much to evaluate on your recent log as it was all at low TPS. Its your PE Mode/WOT that was the issue, but you never hit it.

Did you switch to the serial connection on wideband?

Also, if you could please use the Pids that are located on Page 1 of this thread (or in the Tutorial) it will be a lot easier to evaluate.

So are your fueling problems solved?

Yeah, I have switched to the serial connection on wideband and added the fuel pressure sensor to evaluate my fuel pressure issue. Since I've been gone for a week, I haven't been able to rewire the fuel pump. I was trying to stay out of the throttle as much as possible, becaue I wanted to verify everything was safe. I was driving around yesterday and had some issues with the car going seriously rich. For about 10 to 15 mins of my ride home yesterday, the car sat at AFR ratios between 9 -10.5. Ran really rough, almost stalling.


GJ, what little bit I could tell, is that every time you gave it throttle, it went lean (Lambda).

Your Trims were more negative..at least that changed..:confused:.

I don't know why these trims are changing so much, I am still runing tune 009 that you posted 2 weeks ago.

[WeathermanShawn]

You look rich at cruise and lean on throttle.

I see no indication your problem was fixed. 1.13 Lambda is quite high for a 22% TPS.

GJ, I don't see anything we can do tune-wise at this point.

[joecar]

Alright, well I'm back from vacation and I've got some new goodies from a buddy. V2 Flashscan showed up today as well as a MAF and fuel pressure sensor. So, I spent some time installing the new sensor, Maf and upgrading to Efi V8. Now, I was planning on getting a log in the morning, but I can't seem to figure out how to load pid options in the V2. Can someone give me some insight on this? I have updated my Calc.pid text for the V2 and fuel pressure sensor using the EGR now. Thanks for any help. I've been looking through tutorials and the help content for the past 3 hours but I must be missing something. It seems to work fine in pass thru mode, but I would like to leave the laptop at home in the morning.GJ,
Your friend has been very good to you :cheers:

Follow the pics in these threads:

showthread.php?14351-BBL-PIDs-V2 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14351-BBL-PIDs-V2&p=128785#post128785)
showthread.php?13841-What-is-BBL (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?13841-What-is-BBL)
showthread.php?13836-New-V2-help-find-exlporer (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?13836-New-V2-help-find-exlporer&p=123595&viewfull=1#post123595)
showthread.php?15492-V2-BBL-saving-log-data (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15492-V2-BBL-saving-log-data&p=136965#post136965)

I recommend you pick an SD card (any size from 512K to 2GB), they are cheap $4 from moat places (Radio Shack, Fry's, Amazon).

Also, post your new calc_pids.txt, it will need some changes since with V2 you can now read serial comms from the LC-1.

[joecar]

If you haven't already, update to V7 b157 and V8 b151 from www.efilive.com/downloads (http://www.efilive.com/downloads).

Make sure V2 has firmware 2.07.09, if not then flash it (from V8 b151).

Install SD card and format it.

Follow pictorials (see above links) for configuring V2 for LS1B logging and flashing.

Install the LC-1-to-V2 serial comms [null modem] cable, and make sure V2 can read serial AFR/Lambda/EQR.

Install the pressure sensor on the fuel rail and wire it to the EGR port, make sure it works.

Install the calc_pids.txt that Shawn said (from post #1 of the Calc VET tutorial), and add a calc pid for fuel pressure (using the EGR pid), post it here.

[Gjohnson]

GJ,
Your friend has been very good to you :cheers:

Follow the pics in these threads:


I recommend you pick an SD card (any size from 512K to 2GB), they are cheap $4 from moat places (Radio Shack, Fry's, Amazon).

Also, post your new calc_pids.txt, it will need some changes since with V2 you can now read serial comms from the LC-1.

Man, he's been unbeilievable good to me! Can't thank him enough!


If you haven't already, update to V7 b157 and V8 b151 from www.efilive.com/downloads (http://www.efilive.com/downloads).

Make sure V2 has firmware 2.07.09, if not then flash it (from V8 b151).

Install SD card and format it.

Follow pictorials (see above links) for configuring V2 for LS1B logging and flashing.

Install the LC-1-to-V2 serial comms [null modem] cable, and make sure V2 can read serial AFR/Lambda/EQR.

Install the pressure sensor on the fuel rail and wire it to the EGR port, make sure it works.

Install the calc_pids.txt that Shawn said (from post #1 of the Calc VET tutorial), and add a calc pid for fuel pressure (using the EGR pid), post it here.

Thanks for all the info Joe, I will double check a few of these items when I get home tonight.

Last night I was up to around midnight trying to get this thing ready and I tackeled a few of the items you listed.

- I upgraded to V8 b151, but I don't believe I upgrade v7.5.
- I updated the firmware to 2.07.19
- I installed a 1g SD card, but didn't format it.
- I installed the fuel presure sensor and wired into EGR pins on the PCM
- I updated the calc_pid text from Shawn's other thread, but I will post what I have later.

The 2 logs I posted this morning are using the updated Calc_pid text and fuel pressure sensor.

At this point, I'm about ready to drive my car off a bridge! I haven't driven it for over a week and it seems I am having some serious fuel issues now. I don't know if it's my tune or what, but considering I've been running the same fuel wiring for the past year I don't think the wiring could since I've never had these issues.

Today on the way back to work, I stopped by Target. When I left to head to work I started the car up and the AFR would only read rich, it finally got up to around 11 AFR after a minute or so, then it started completly leaning out. Didn't matter if it was ideling or not, it started climbing to around 16 to 17 AFR at idle. If you hit the gas it would drop to 12 AFR, then sweep to 14.6, then start climbing all the way up to almost 22 AFR at idle. I had to pull over and shut the car off. When I started it back up it, did the same thing. Had to baby the car all the way to work and after a about 10 mins the AFR was a little steady but it was still bouncing between 13.8 and 17. I started thinking it could just be my WO2 going out on me, but the car was running rough and hesitating at times. The check engine light never came on.

[WeathermanShawn]

GJ, you can always go back to your original tune if you think there is a problem with the current Tune.

You were seriously lean from the moment you posted your first log. Your LTFT's were +25% and your PE Mode/WOT SELBENS were exceeding +30%.

The CALC.VET tuning requires precise MAF Airflow, O2, and WO2 values to be accurate. What may be happening is that so much Airflow has had to be added to the MAF to keep from going lean..that has also added a lot of values to your VE Table. That may explain the rich starts.

Why not work on the fuel pump wiring, install a new MAF, open up the cold air into the engine, and purchase a new wideband sensor. Whether you are utilizing CALC.VET or another tuning method, the same issues will undoubtedly re-occur.

Tune-wise I would just go back to your stock tune and work with your Tuner. If at some point you would like to utilize CALC.VET, I will be glad to help.

Let me know..

[Gjohnson]

Why not work on the fuel pump wiring, install a new MAF, open up the cold air into the engine, and purchase a new wideband sensor. Whether you are utilizing CALC.VET or another tuning method, the same issues will undoubtedly re-occur.

Tune-wise I would just go back to your stock tune and work with your Tuner. If at some point you would like to utilize CALC.VET, I will be glad to help.

Let me know..

Yeah, I may go back to the original tune and see if anything changes.

I'm currently running a new MAF and I have a spare wideband sensor to try out.

I'm still trying to figure out the best way to get the cold air in. We stared work on it before I left for vacation. We couldn't get to far, because I was missing the inner fender lining, so when I got back from vacation I ran down to the local junkyard and pulled one. I'll get with my neighbor and see what we can figure out now. I also, tried wrapping the metal intake tubing in heater wrap to reduce heat but that doesn't seem to be helping much.

I should be able to get the fuel pump rewired tonight.

[WeathermanShawn]

Oh, so that last log was with the new MAF?

[Gjohnson]

Yep. New Maf, Fuel presure sensor and WO2 hooked up serial.

[WeathermanShawn]

The new MAF could have resulted in more negative Trims.

Thats actually a more positive sign, as it indicates the actual airflow being reported is greater. Of course that means another MAF adjustment which is necessary any time you change the MAF.

[Gjohnson]

Thanks Shawn, I think that is a major factor right now. I did another log this morning on the way to work and the LTFT's on both O2's sat at +25 and the LTFTBEN's sat at 1.25 the entire log as well. So I'm planning on adding 25% to the MAF Freq table and re logging.

[Gjohnson]

Ok, I've got a quick log here and it seems my issues are still fuel pressue. I spent some time this weekend rewiring my fuel pump directly to the fuel pump relay on my LS harness, but it seems I still have an issue. What else could be causing such a drastic drop in fuel pressure at the rail? If you see in this log, under 50 or 60% throttle the fuel pressure starts gradually dropping all the way down to around 25 psi. I was trying to keep an eye on these numbers to avoid damage so I immediately let off the throttle, when I see the pressure start to die. I have a Walbro 255lph pump that was installed during the swap, so it has a little over 5,000 miles on it. I am also using a Corvette fuel filter/regulator.

10873

[joecar]

GJ, can you also post your calc_pids.txt (it has the fuel pressure pid).

[Gjohnson]

Sure, although can't seem to get that pid to show up for the V2. So I took laptop with me today so I could make the existing log with FP.

10876

[joecar]

Calc pids don't show up on V2... but they can be added/saved to a log when viewing the log with V7 scantool.

I need your calc_pids.txt so I can translate EGR voltage to fuel pressure psi.

[slows10]

Either the fuel pump or regulator is bad. I would bet it is the pump.

[Gjohnson]

Sorry guys we've been slammed at work today and somehow I posted the log twice instead of the pid text. Here's the pid text.

10877

[slows10]

Your commanded fuel drops from 14.63 to 11.70 at 39% throttle. Looks like you went into pe mode? Thats right when the pressure dropped alot. This all happens starting at frame 5441. Check the entire fuel delivery system.

[WeathermanShawn]

This is what would worry me..:confused:.

You can FP diving when you hit Throttle along with AFR going lean.

All this and no KR.

GJ, I'll be standing by to see what the mechanical experts say..

[Gjohnson]

Either the fuel pump or regulator is bad. I would bet it is the pump.

Well, that sucks. I bought the pump and filter brand new less than 8,000 miles ago. But now, thinking back to when I started the swap. I picked up the car for cheap because the OEM fuel pump had went out and the car sat for over 4 years. When I finally got the build started and engine in, I though it would be best to empty the tank instead of running on 4 year old gas, but like an idiot I did so buy disconnecting the fuel line from the rail and pumping the old gas into a bucket. I guess I could have clogged up the new filter or something. Would it be more likely that the filter is clogged with these miles or that the new pump is already toast? Maybe I should pull the pump out and inspect it????

[slows10]

No KR because he is only at 40% throttle. And he is commanding 11.70 and actual is high 13.-14.5:1. Low load and not real lean at that point. Stay in the throttle more, and it would have probably gotten KR. And it might be setup with conservative timing.

[slows10]

Well, that sucks. I bought the pump and filter brand new less than 8,000 miles ago. But now, thinking back to when I started the swap. I picked up the car for cheap because the OEM fuel pump had went out and the car sat for over 4 years. When I finally got the build started and engine in, I though it would be best to empty the tank instead of running on 4 year old gas, but like an idiot I did so buy disconnecting the fuel line from the rail and pumping the old gas into a bucket. I guess I could have clogged up the new filter or something. Would it be more likely that the filter is clogged with these miles or that the new pump is already toast? Maybe I should pull the pump out and inspect it????

If you havent changed the fuel filter yet, Try that first definately. Also the sock filter on the end of the pump may be clogged.

[joecar]

Sorry guys we've been slammed at work today and somehow I posted the log twice instead of the pid text. Here's the pid text.

10877No worries, take your time, we're always here... :cheers:

Ok, I got your calc_pids.txt, your fuel pressure is worse than we thought...

[joecar]

Like slow10 said, change the filter first... then check the sock, also inspect that the pump is assembled right (is the hose fastened tight).

Your wideband lambda shows you were lucky... when you get the pump working right, you will be excessively rich.

You can add the pid EXT.WO2EQR1 (it costs zero channels).

[Gjohnson]

Ok, well I did a little inspecting of the fuel system. I pulled the pump and apparently the sock is falling apart. Could the sock be causing the low pressure problem or would I still need to change the filter. So hopefully I can pick up a new one and solve this issues fast. I didn't get any pics of the sock, but I did take a few of how the filter is setup and where it's located. I thought that maybe the tight fit and sharp turns of the hoses maybe restricting flow.

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh40/Gjohnson7771/IMG_0052.jpg

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh40/Gjohnson7771/IMG_0050.jpg

[joecar]

GJ,

I talked with your friend... we discussed Walbro had a bad batch of pumps a while back... we came to the conclusion you should buy another pump.

If you can route the hoses so they don't make sharp bend, then do so.

[Gjohnson]

Yeah, I just got off the phone with him and he said you guys had chatted. Well, I guess I need a new pump. I was also talking to him about all the noise the pump makes. This is my first aftermarket pump so I really don't have anything to compare it to, but I know the pump seems to make a lot of noise. I can hear it from the drivers seat while driving and even more when next to other cars or guard rails. Hopefully you can hear what I'm talking about from the video. Does this sound normal?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PAAY-lAAWk

Sorry, my camera was low on battery.

Joe, I'll see if I can route the hoses diffrently, but I really don't have a lot of room.

[joecar]

Can you position the filter/regulator to be beside the tank and down lower.

[joecar]

That ground wire with the crimp looks a little suspect...

with pump running, measure voltage between the ground pin on the pump connector and elsewhere on the frame/chassis (i.e. measuring voltage drop), if it's more than 0.3V then the ground connection is no good.

[joecar]

I think I can hear it, the whining sound.

[Gjohnson]

I will check the ground and see what I can come up with.

Yeah, the whining sound is the pump running.

[Gjohnson]

Good morning all, well I spent some time last night pulling the fuel pump and I discovered that most of the actually filter had been sucked up into the pump its self. So I removed the filter completely and worked on removing all debri from the pump. Cleaned it out real good and blew compressed air throught it and re-installed. Currently I'm running the fuel pump without the sock filter, but I plan on picking up a sock the weekend and re-installing. The good news is that the clogged pump seems to have been my problem all along. The pump is queit as a mouse now and the fuel pressure seems to be holding steady at all times. Actually, to be honest is was kinda a little scary driving this thing this morning, because she pulls like crazy now. Anyway, here's a quick log of my drive to work.


10899

[WeathermanShawn]

Congrats GJ!

First normal log I have seen after 35 pages of a thread..:grin:.

Did you ever think it was something that simple?

What might be a good idea is to write-up a summary of all your trials and tribulations. In all honesty this is perhaps the longest thread I have ever seen of this forum, and I think the readers might learn something from this.

On my end I have learned that if you have to add +25% to the MAF there is a very good chance that you have a problem that is not tune-related.

Again, congrats. If you have any interest on refining your tune please check out the CALC.VET Summary Notes:forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?16280-CALC-VET-Summary-Notes (http://forum.efilive.com/forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?16280-CALC-VET-Summary-Notes)

[Gjohnson]

Thanks Shawn, yeah I'm pumped things are actaully looking good now.

I never thought it would be that simple, but now I'm glad it is.

I'm planning on refining the tune, before I get into the PE mode tuning.

[joecar]

GJ,

Good job :cheers: I took a quick look at your log, I will take a more detailed look later.

The LS1 is probably the most underrated engine of all time, few people realize how hard it can pull (even with the stock tune).

What is the weight of your 200SX (did I get the model right...?)...?

[Gjohnson]

Close, I have a 1997 240sx. I believe it is called the 200sx overseas though. Anyway, the stock the car weights in at 2850 lbs. A few guys on the Silvav8forums, have weighted the cars after the swap and they weight in around 2925 lbs with a full tank of gas.

[Gjohnson]

Ok, well I've got the new fuel sock installed and all my fuel pressure issues should be solved now. Can someone take a look at the last few logs I made today, I'm trying to log blackbox log with the V2 but I must be missing something. I can't seem to get my Maps to show values. So I can adjust my Maf or VE tables.

10992

[joecar]

Post pics of your maps...

[WeathermanShawn]

Might check your Pids too.

Depending on what Tuning method you are now using..you may be missing some.

[Gjohnson]

Post pics of your maps...

10993

10994

[Gjohnson]

Might check your Pids too.

Depending on what Tuning method you are now using..you may be missing some.

Well, right now I'm still using the Calc.vet tuning method. I wanted to make sure my MAF and Ve tables were as clean as possible before moving on to the PE mode tuning.

Here's a look at my PID selsction on the V2.

10996

10995

[WeathermanShawn]

GJ..I'm pretty sure the Tutorial is up-to-date..

Triple-check your Pids..I think you have some missing.

I believe calculated Pids are done a little differently through BB. I'm still load mine through V2 and use a laptop..but anyway these should be the latest and greatest..

Make sure the calc_pids.txt file is still 'saved' in your computer..

Copy that calc_pids.txt file to this location, or copy/paste its contents to the file at this location on your PC: My Documents\EFILive\V7.5\User Configuration\calc_pids.txt

Edit: See page 1 of the CALC.VEt Thread for the latest Pid Selection and calc_pids.txt file.
BB logging requires a different approach to calculated Pids.. See Joecar's Summary Notes..
(If you are still logging Fuel pressure..you need another file).

[Gjohnson]

Ok, it's been a while since I tried to add these pids. I just remembered what this issue is. I can't seem to load any of the tuning system pids( ie: LTFTBEN, W02BEN, SELBEN, VET, VEN.) I've been trying to load them using my laptop also, but must be missing something.

[Gjohnson]

Yeah, I tripple checked the calc_pid.text file and everything seems to be fine there. I will see if I can check out Joe's summary notes and figure out where I'm going wrong.

[joecar]

GJ, please post your current calc_pids.txt file here (it should have the fuel rail pressure pid).

[Gjohnson]

Here you go.

10877

[Gjohnson]

Ok, well I'm still trying to figure out the pid selection on the V2, but in the mean time I got a quick log on the way home from church tonight so you guys can see where I'm at. It's only about a 15 min log, but you can get the idea.

11002

[Gjohnson]

Ok, another quck log this morning on the way to work. I think I'm ready for PE tuning now.

11004

[WeathermanShawn]

Ok, another quck log this morning on the way to work. I think I'm ready for PE tuning now.

GJ, I don't understand what you are doing here..:confused:. With CALC.VET you don't need to do PE Tuning. Its all done by SELBENS. You don't need to do anything 'special'.

I am a little curious why you are not showing any enrichment at WOT? Your EQ is 1.00 and you still look stoich. Did you Disable PE Mode?

[Gjohnson]

Sorry for the confusion Shawn, I was just referring to more tuning utilizing WOT and higher RPM's. A few weeks ago, since I was having major fuel starvation issues you had suggested that I not exceed 4000 RPMs or 50% throttle until I get the fuel issue corrected.

I'm not sure how I would have disabled PE mode and I since I've made it to work I haven't had a chance to look over that last log.

Now, last night after my last log I was looking through the summary notes you were referring to and trying to figure out how to add the pids to the V2. I found this thread...

http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?16280-CALC-VET-Summary-Notes

After reading over it a few times I made the following changes to my tune:

III. CALC.VET Tuning Tips

1. B0701: -Disable Catalytic Converter Protection
Insures accurate stoich and PE mode/WOT Fueling ( This was already changed.)

2. B0120: Change RPM Threshold for Airflow Calculation from 4000 to 400
Eliminates any Airflow Correction from the VE Table

3. B3308: Disable DFCO: Change B3308 (M6) to 140C Change B3313 to 140C
Accurate fueling computations

4. B4105: O2 Switch-points to 450 Millivolts
Smoother MAF & VE Table

5. B3618: PE Modifier Based on Rpm (EQ): 1.16
Safe adequate Fueling regardless of Fuel Type


VI. Refining your CALC.VET Tune

1. Reset LTFT Trims:Connect Scan Tool to Vehicle >>Ignition Key On>>Calibration>>Long Term Fuel Trim Cells>>Reset


Does #5 disable PE mode???? That's the only thing I can think of.

[WeathermanShawn]

5. B3618: PE Modifier Based on Rpm (EQ): 1.16
Safe adequate Fueling regardless of Fuel Type

GJ, it only disables it if you type in the wrong EQ value. You must have put in 1.00, instead of 1.16..

According to your last log you hit 4084 Rpms, 99 kPa..all with no fuel enrichment..:confused:.

That only happens if Table B3618 was changed to 1.00. So, you were pretty lean again..I also noticed you picked up 8.5 degree in your log. See if you have to be very careful with the LS engines when you open the throttle up at very low Rpms (1659 Rpms). Thats called 'bogging'..its very hard on an engine. You can see you went lean and thats a lot of KR.

Please check table B3618. It need to read 1.16..

Edit: Make sure your Tune Tool Commanded values are set to EQ..Not AFR!

[Gjohnson]

I'll see if I can take a look at my Tune tool Commanded values, but this is the current tune:

11008

As you can see in B3618 the entire table has been set to 1.16.

[WeathermanShawn]

No..

You have B3618 all set to 1.16 Lambda..Not EQ..

Lambda is the 'inverse' of EQ..So, your Lambda of 1.16 equals an EQ of .86..Which equals an AFR of ~ 16.965. Thats pretty lean.

Your units need to be in EQ. (1.16)..

Edit: if you want to stay in Lambda units..your Tune would need to read all .86..I.E., the inverse of EQ..

[Gjohnson]

Crap. Of course. Does it mater if it is Lambda or EQ? Will one be more efficent or at least viewed easier?

[WeathermanShawn]

Technically, whether its Lambda or EQ it will work (as long as the value inputted is correct).

Personally, I prefer EQ. 1.16..is easily understood percentage wise..16% more fuel than stoich. Plus our Commanded EQ Pid is EQ..

But the bottom line is you have to understand all the conversions..even AFR.

1.16EQ = ~ .865 Lambda..

[joecar]

For commanded fueling, use EQR units, this avoids making a mistake (e.g. 1.16 EQR immediately tells you it is 16% richer than stoich);

the only place we use Lambda is for the wideband correction multiplier (e.g. {GM.EQIVRATIO}*{EXT.WO2LAM1}).

[joecar]

Also, I suggest viewing B0101 in [g*K/kPa] units rather than [%] units (for one thing, it does not require to know engine displacement)...

[g*K/kPa] can be easily converted into [grams/cyl] by multiplying by MAP[kPa] and dividing by DAT[K]... this is way more useful than [%].

( if you notice, the rules of algebra/arithmetic also apply to the units, so that for example [K]/[K] cancels out to 1, as also does [1/kPa]*[kPa]. )

[Gjohnson]

Joe, I've tried to do some searching to figure out how to change that, but I'm missing something. I was able to change the display value for B3618 so that it now shows EQ and it's been set at 1.16, but when I check the display units for B0101 is shows kPa.

[joecar]

Joe, I've tried to do some searching to figure out how to change that, but I'm missing something. I was able to change the display value for B3618 so that it now shows EQ and it's been set at 1.16, but when I check the display units for B0101 is shows kPa.I tunetool, go Edit->Properties and on the first tab set VE units to g*K/kPa... restart the tunetool when changing units.

Post pics of your B0101, B3605/B3647, B3618 tables.

Don't confuse the VE table's MAP axis kPa with the VE table's cell units g*K/kPa.

[Gjohnson]

Ok, Joe. Apparently reason I can't get this to convert is because I have been viewing it in this setting. Does it pull up diffrently for you when you view the tune file?

On to the tables.

110131101411015

I don't have B3647.

Oh, Joe. Can you give me some direction on my PID selection issue with the V2? I've looked throught the summary notes Shanw mentioned and I've also, been searching on and off all day, but no dice.

[WeathermanShawn]

GJ..Your Units are correct.:confused:.

Fuel is EQ, and VE Table is in g*k/kPa.

When you say 'V2' do you mean BBL?

[WeathermanShawn]

BBL..
The step-by-step is in the picture-grams in these threads:
http://forum.efilive.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by joecar http://forum.efilive.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?p=128787#post128787)
showthread.php?14351-BBL-PIDs-V2 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14351-BBL-PIDs-V2&p=128782&viewfull=1#post128782)
showthread.php?13841-What-is-BBL (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?13841-What-is-BBL)
showthread.php?13836-New-V2-help-find-exlporer (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?13836-New-V2-help-find-exlporer&p=123595&viewfull=1#post123595)
showthread.php?15492-V2-BBL-saving-log-data (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15492-V2-BBL-saving-log-data&p=136965#post136965)

[Gjohnson]

Yeah, I've got most of those tasks handled. I think my issues seems to be the calc_pid.text for the V2, I think it's saved as untilted.txt. It seems to be setup differently then the normal 7.5 calc_pid.text files. Should I just pasted my text into this file?

[WeathermanShawn]

Well, I don't know if this is any help, but...

Here is where my calc_pids.txt file is located on my computer, and the name. Yes, make sure you are overwriting it in the actual calc_pids.txt file..No other name..

[Gjohnson]

I got it! Ok, for those that may be struggling with this also. Apparently my problem was V7 scan tool Compatibility Settings, I needed to go in and add the Calc Pids that I was missing to Pre-selected Calculated PID names. The PIDs don't show up on the V2 display but they show up in the V7 Scan tool when I need them.

11017

[joecar]

Ah, of course, I now understand what you're saying... yes, the V7 button is for selecting the calc pids to show up when you view the log in the scantool...

but remember this: even if you didn't click the V7 button (i.e. didn't specify those calc pids), you can still select those calc pids when viewing the log in the scantool (on the PIDs tab), it's just a little tedious.

[joecar]

When viewing tables in the tunetool, as a sanity check, glance at the graph, look at the units in the upper right corner of the 3D graphs.

When viewing maps in the scantool, glance at the row/col units and the data units (shown in the title of the map), make sure they are identical to the tunetool table that this map is mimicking (if you don't see the units on the map, then go into the map properties and on the Data, Row, Col tabs checkmark Show Units).

B3647 is the COS version of B3605... I just remembered your running a non-COS, so you will have B3605 instead of B3647.


Your 3 pics show the same units as what I'm see.

[Gjohnson]

Ok, just when I think I'm out of the woods a day like this happens. Can someone take a look at these logsart? Well, I get up this morning headed to work and on the way I use the V2 to make the 1st log. Everything looks awesome as far as I can see. LTFT's look real tight and neat, no issues with fuel pressure or WOT.
So, when I get to work at 7 am I park the car. I work all day, I don't even get a lunch so when I head out this evening at 4:45 pm the car has sat all day unatttended. I get in the car take off home and start the next log for the ride home. Immediately, I'm running lean and I continue to run lean the entire drive home. I baby the car the whole way, because I have to get home in time to watch my kids so my wife can leave for work. But the car keeps spiking lean. So here are the logs, nothing was changed. Same tune, just a 8 hour break in between driving.


11032

11033

[WeathermanShawn]

Well your second log shows IAT's near 60C. Thats extremely warm. Furthermore your 2nd log shows a drastic change in your LTFT's. Whether thats fuel-related, heat-related, or your NB/WB are in in 'disorder'..hard to tell.

Any way you can log HO2S11 & HO2S21?

My hunch would be extreme heat soak, or you still have a fuel delivery issue that keeps reappearing.

[slows10]

If you are not doing a calc-vet log and are just logging a normal drive to work to just see how things are doing try making a general pid list. Log the spark advance, short term and long term trims, duty cycles , o2 sensors etc. some of the pid's on the calc-vet log dont do much for driveability problems. Also you had some knock retard at light throttle. Like the weatherman said might have fuel problems again.

[Gjohnson]

I'll try logging with diffrent PID's for a while and see what I can see. I had truely ruled out the heat soak issues, because the car was just started and the temps really hadn't risen that much. The IAT's at startup was already over 102* F because it was a little over 90* yesterday in my area. If you see the pic from the 2nd below the ECT was only around 150* F and the fuel pressure was around 65 psi and steady.


11037

[WeathermanShawn]

Looks like you hit a max IAT of 140F and Max Dynamic temperature of 165F. That is a lot of heat soak.

Regardless of your fuel pressure, your Trims are 'schizophrenic'. They differ too much by bank and the amplitude from + Trims to - Trims suggest you are not getting a regulated fuel flow.

My assessment is that you still have mechanical issues with your vehicle that do not allow proper tuning at this time. The heatsoak is just an added burden that no Tuner or enthusiastic would accept.

I'll let the mechanical-minded forum members advise you on your next course of action..:)

[slows10]

I think weathermanshawn is onto something with saying those trims are "schizo". With the heat you have in the iat and charge temps something is going on. My opinion is, with the High summer time temps in Oklahoma and your specific vehicle setup you are having more than just hot intake air. You now have a great big engine in a little engine compartment. Maybe you are getting hot enough underhood temps to slightly boil the fuel or cause some kind of vapor lock issues. Not bad enough that the car wont run but enough to mess with the way it does run. That engine compartment was designed for a four cylinder correct? It is strange that the car ran fine in the morning, but in the late afternon when it was much hotter out the trims went crazy. The outside temps are the only thing that changed.Maybe just change the pid list and try to see if it is mechanical or tune issue first. Then think about the heat issue.

[joecar]

Your fuel pressure sensor at the rail says 65 psi...?

Have you confirmed that this is correct by comparing with a known fuel pressure gauge...?

If it is correct, then you have to rescale B4001 IFR table by sqrt(65/58) since the stock IFR is for 58 psi.

Or can you adjust the in-tank regulator so that pressure at the rail is 58 psi...?

[joecar]

Why is ECT perfectly flatlined at 153°F...?

[joecar]

In LS1B_0003.efi (http://forum.efilive.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11033&d=1307142323) your TP only goes as high as 31%... how far did you perceive you were opening the throttle...?

[slows10]

On your pid list, You have egr voltage. Is this for fuel pressure? How are you converting that to psi? Sorry if its a dumb question.,

[joecar]

On your pid list you egr voltage. This is for fuel pressure? How are you converting that to psi? Sorry if its a dumb question.See CALC.FP in the attachment to post #362 above.

[Gjohnson]

No, I haven't verified the current rail psi of 65, but when I had a pressure gauge a few weeks back the sensor and guage where equal. At that time the rail pressure was around 56 psi, but the fuel pump was clogged and whining. Everysince I unclogged the fuel pump and add a new sock the psi has read 65. I don't believe I have a in-tank regulator, the corvette fuel filter I have is supose to regulate the pressure to 55 psi.

Slows10,
I would definitely have to agree with you. The only thing that changed was the temps outside and then later that night I took my son out to see X-men and the car ran great again.

[Gjohnson]

Why is ECT perfectly flatlined at 153°F...?

In the pic the ETC was flatlined at 153* because the engine was still cold and warming up. The car hadn't been driven in 8 hours.


In LS1B_0003.efi (http://forum.efilive.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11033&d=1307142323) your TP only goes as high as 31%... how far did you perceive you were opening the throttle...?

That's about right, I wasn't driving it hard, because I wasn't confident it wouldn't lean out. Plus it doesn't take much to get this sucker moving.

[joecar]

slows10 has a good/interesting point...

GJ, can you post closeup pics of your fuel line...?

[Gjohnson]

Ok, guys I got a couple of pics as well as a few logs made. Ok, first here are my logs. The 1st was the ride to work this morning, nice outside probably around 75*.

11069

The second log was on my lunch break and was total crap again. Car was cold, but still leaning out like crazy it was around 100* outside.

11070

The last log was the drive home from work, still leaning out and around 96* outside. One thing I noticed while reviewing the log was one of the LTFT's keeps pegging out at positive 25 for some reason. It looks like it does it intermittently through the 1st log, but by the last 2 logs it's consistent.

11071

Ok, now pics of my engine bay and fuel lines.

[Gjohnson]

11075

11076

11074

[WeathermanShawn]

I think the HO2 response is showing a malfunction in the sensor(s) or in some internal working of the engine. Of course exhaust leak comes to mind..especially when seeing a +25 LTFT.

Your O2's should show a nice rhythmic swing from rich to lean at a rate of 3-5 times a second. Your does not.

Heat alone should not be doing that. I ran my car today with high IATS and saw nothing like your O2 pattern. I would say, replace sensors, check for exhaust leaks..whether fuel pressure alone can cause that is beyond my area of knowledge..

I wonder if that MAF/IAT location is hurting you?

[slows10]

You could consider running the car with no hood. Im not sure what your local laws require though. But it might give you a quick answer to your problem.

[Gjohnson]

I'm not sure on the MAF/IAT location, but I was thinking the O2's looked insane in the log. Are both of them completely out of wack or just HO2S11.

Slows10,
I don't think there would be an issue driving without a hood, but I'm not sure how much that would really tell me. If you see the 2nd log where, I started off having major issues. The car is cold, intake temps as well as engine bay temps are basiclly ambient temps.

[WeathermanShawn]

I know HO2S11 looks real bad..I was not 100% sure on 21..

Is your O2 location manifold or do you have headers? Did you solder or stretch the O2's or do anything unusual to the wiring?

I hate to even suggest it, but since your car has been on the edge of detonation for so long..what would a bad valve do to your O2 sensor pattern?

[Gjohnson]

I don't know what a bad valve would do. My O2 are located about 10 inches off my manifolds. My wiring has been the same on the O2's for weeks, but the bank 2 sensor (the one that has started pegging out at + 25, is still being ran off the analog wiring for the WO2. I'm thinking I should pull the WO2 and try a log using my stock O2's. They only have about 4000 miles on them.

[Gjohnson]

Now that I think about it, I wonder if the LM-1 is malfunctioning and sending a bad signal to the bank 2 O2. Early when I was driving home I gave the car about 50% throttle and for no reason at all the LM-1 restarted and and started the warm up phase again.

[WeathermanShawn]

Now that I think about it, I wonder if the LM-1 is malfunctioning and sending a bad signal to the bank 2 O2. Early when I was driving home I gave the car about 50% throttle and for no reason at all the LM-1 restarted and and started the warm up phase again.

Try the stock O2's for awhile. I have had a wideband for 2-3 years now..and those sensors can be challenging to keep calibrated. Stock O2's seem to be able to take a lot of abuse.

That's a good idea GJ..

[Gjohnson]

Well, I've got the wiring and O2's all swapped out and I'm ready for the drive to work tomorrow. Although, I am a little worry now, because if she is leaning out pretty bad I won't have a gauge to know it. Hopefully all will be good. I'll probably just baby her all day long.

[joecar]

HO2Sx1 voltages look wrong.

On which bank was the LM-1 simulating the NBO2 (was it bank 1, left/driver side)...?

[Gjohnson]

The LM-1 was simulating bank 2 (passenger side). So, I don't know. I've got a log from the drive to work, but I can't post it until I get home since I'm logging with the V2 now. I wanted to get a log on my lunch break durning the heat of the day, but since I'm so short handed at work I won't be taking a lunch. I will cap off with a drive home, it should still be good and hot outside. Weather channel shows it should still be around 96* at 6pm.

[Gjohnson]

Ok, I've got the logs from the day. 1st log was from this morning, the 2nd log is from the ride home. I really don't know how to read the O2 sensor voltage, so I'm really not sure if I was running lean or not.

11084


11085

[WeathermanShawn]

Well, your HO2xx looked a lot better..but there are still some patterns I would not call normal. At this point your O2 sensors may be working, but may be responding to the fuel delivery issue that is still evident.

Your LTFTS still swing more than normal. On Log 0011:
Bank 1: -3.9 to +11.7.
Bank 2: -8.6 to +9.4

That an unsymmetrical swing from Bank 1 to Bank 2..and the actual variance seems out of norm.

I would still concentrate on the fuel pump/fuel delivery issue. Without 58 psi I don't think you will have a normal injector flow. You are overall still lean (Trim-wise) and do not have the correct fuel pressure for an LS1 engine..

[Gjohnson]

Your fuel pressure sensor at the rail says 65 psi...?

Have you confirmed that this is correct by comparing with a known fuel pressure gauge...?

If it is correct, then you have to rescale B4001 IFR table by sqrt(65/58) since the stock IFR is for 58 psi.

Or can you adjust the in-tank regulator so that pressure at the rail is 58 psi...?

Ok, well as far as the fuel pressure is conceerned I guess I need to use the formual Joe posted for B4001 and multiply the entire table by that amount???

square root(65/58)

sqrt(1.12068966) = 1.058626305724741

So I'm assuming I multiply the entire B4001 table by 1.058%, is that correct?

[Gjohnson]

As a side note, from the logs I posted it seems that my avg fuel pressure is higher durning the 2nd log for some reason. Is that normal withe the increase in outside temp?

[joecar]

As a side note, from the logs I posted it seems that my avg fuel pressure is higher durning the 2nd log for some reason. Is that normal withe the increase in outside temp?That might be a sign that the fuel line is getting heated somewhere.

[joecar]

Ok, well as far as the fuel pressure is conceerned I guess I need to use the formual Joe posted for B4001 and multiply the entire table by that amount???

square root(65/58)

sqrt(1.12068966) = 1.058626305724741

So I'm assuming I multiply the entire B4001 table by 1.058%, is that correct?Yes, but only if 65 psi is correct...

if you get a ±2 psi variation then use the center pressure... e.g. 63±2 psi (I saw your pressure ripple in the range 61-65 psi).

BUT: if your fuel line is getting hot (gasoline may be boiling) then this will not help.


We have to think about what your logs mean...

[WeathermanShawn]

BUT: if your fuel line is getting hot (gasoline may be boiling) then this will not help.
We have to think about what your logs mean...

I think Joecar may be on to something there (fuel temperature). If you think about when you fill up with gas (cooler fuel) your Trims go very negative until the fuel heats up.

I guess you could always switch NB positions (flip them) and see if the asymmetrical Bank-Bank Trims still exist..

[joecar]

I'm looking over one of the log files... but I haven't come to a conclusion yet...

[joecar]

Maybe try this (but let's see what Shawn says first): add 8% to MAF and take another log.

Also, swap NBO2 sensors left/right as Shawn said.

[WeathermanShawn]

Maybe try this (but let's see what Shawn says first): add 8% to MAF and take another log.

Also, swap NBO2 sensors left/right as Shawn said.

That sounds like a plan. The +8% to the MAF should level the Trims to +/0..and swapping the O2's will tell us whats going on the Bank variation..

I say do it..

[joecar]

Yes, do it...


(and leave IFR calculation alone for now)

[WeathermanShawn]

I'm looking over one of the log files... but I haven't come to a conclusion yet...

Thats the most bizarre Spark Timing pattern I have ever seen..:confused:..

What the heck is going on..is it just his cylinder air bouncing around?..its like there is a pulsating in the injector flow/Battery voltage going on also..

Both logs he is getting substantial KR with little throttle. Makes me wonder if something internally is knocking around..

Well, GJ in any case the MAF +8 % should be to the entire MAF curve..from 1500-12,000 Hz..

[Gjohnson]

That sounds like a plan. The +8% to the MAF should level the Trims to +/0..and swapping the O2's will tell us whats going on the Bank variation..

I say do it..

Ok, I can easily swap to O2 sensors and add the + 8% to the MAF table, but do I need to adjust the O2 switch points again?

If you recall on this last tune I switched the O2 switch points like the Calc VE tuning tips said:

4. B4105: O2 Switch-points to 450 Millivolts
Smoother MAF & VE Table

11090

Should I switch them back to stock as well?

I actually get a late day tomorrow, so I can get some of these things knocked out in the morning.

[WeathermanShawn]

Your discretion on the O2 Mv..Its really a minor point..at least taking them back to stock eliminates that factor..so yes back to stock.

[slows10]

Is the ac on this car working? I see what looks like ac lines in there. If it is working are you using it during these logs?

[slows10]

Gj, In post #399 you posted some pics of the engine bay. In the 2nd pic down it looks like the fuel line is a few inches away from the manifold. It looks like a 8" section of fuel line is less than 6 inches away from the manifold. In the 3rd pic down, looking at the top of the intake manifold, it looks like their is something that rubs against the top of it. Also on top of the intake tube right in front of the throttle body. Is that from the hood closing on top of it?

[WeathermanShawn]

Is the ac on this car working? I see what looks like ac lines in there. If it is working are you using it during these logs?

That would explain the Spark jumps/falls (to an extent)..

[Gjohnson]

Yes, the AC is working in this setup but I try not to use it durning the data logging. There has been a few exceptions where I turned it on durning logging because I received an incomming call. On the last log from yesterday, about half way though I did take a call that lasted about 2 mins.

slows10,
The fuel line does run pretty close to the manifold at certain areas, that's one of the reasons why I wanted to get the exhaust wrapped. Although, from some of these recent logs my lean issues are evident before the engine and exhaust are even warmed up, so I was leaning away from the heat of the exhaust being the issue.

Yes the mark on top of the intake tube is from the hood. When I first installed the engine I couldn't even get the hood to close because of the clearance with the intake tube. To remedy this I spaced down my cross memeber and spaced the hood hinges near the windsheild. This provides me more clearance, and the spot on the tube is where I put a little grease to test exactly where the hood was touching. I think the hood may still slightly rest on the tube at that spot, but it's really hard to tell.

[slows10]

Did you replace the fuel filter at the same time you found the issues with the fuel pump and sock? Or did you replace it sometime after that?

[Gjohnson]

I haven't replaced the fuel filter/regulator since the inital swap. So the corevette fuel filter that I'm running has about 8000 miles on it, but maybe the sock/pump issue has thrown a bunch of trash into the filter. Although, if the filter was all trashed out wouldn't it restrict the flow instead of the higher PSI numbers I'm showing? Also, I was talking to a buddy about this last night and he was thinking that the filter/regulator maybe regulating the fuel to the correct PSI, but that since the fuel filter is 14 feet away from the rail that the fuel maybe expanding by the time it hits the rail.

[slows10]

What do you mean by the fuel expanding? What does your friend think as to what issues would cause it to expand? Sorry for all the questions but your thread is interesting to me. Your swap challenges our brains because you are running a unique combination. It throws many variables into the mix compared to say a regular f-body that might have these problems. It may have some engineering flaws compared to a car that is built from the factory. Im not sayin thats bad, but we are not auto designers or engineers.

[Gjohnson]

Expanding may not be using the right term, but I would assume the cause would be the change in temp from the fuel being pulled from the dark cool tank and traveling to the warm engine bay.

[slows10]

But you have said to me that you dont believe that heat has any factor in your problems. You told me yesterday that you were lean even upon a cold startup. I sugested you remove the hood and your response was that you didnt think that would show anything. Most of your logs show that your problems are worse during the afternoon.

[joecar]

Fuel line:
I am un-confortable with the pic showing the fuel line immediately above the exhaust at the front of the car, the exhaust has just exited the exhaust manifold at this point; can you shorten the long loop of fuel line in the engine bay and reroute it so it doesn't pass above the exhaust pipe.

Think about this: on the 4th gen F-body, the fuel line never sits above the exhaust, and any place where it passes closer than a few inches to the exhaust it is protected by a heat shield.

Fuel filter:
I would change it, it may contain the remnants of the disintegrated pump sock.

MAF duct:
if you have rubber motor mounts, then engine will move, and maybe the MAF duct will be disturbed (pushed out of round allowing a leak).

[slows10]

Well I think Weathermanshawn and Joecar have pretty much checked every issue as far as the tune being correct, making sure the 02's are fine, the wideband is fine. The LM programmer is correct, Pids are correct. They checked EVERYTHING. IMO it must be something else. If it is a fuel problem, what kind is it? A voltage/wiring issue or a flow problem of some sort. I think the wiring grounds need to be checked again. Checking voltage at the pump under load(might be hard to do). You also cant squeeze the return line shut to check pump output. Or is it a flow problem related to heat? The only place that the line can get hot enough is the engine compartment. It could be lots of things contributing to the problem. The fuel pump could be damaged from the sock issue. As far as the filter is concerned that really should have been replaced. No need to speculate if "the filter was clogged wouldnt the pressure drop instead of going up". It needs to be replaced to eliminate it. The problem needs to be diagnosed one at a time.

[slows10]

I think your engine compartment is an absolute oven. From what I see there is really no airflow entering it and it definately looks like no hot air can escape it. The hood is directly on top of the engine. The engine is twice the size of stock with really no modifications in the engine compartment for it. Also with the A/C going those temps must skyrocket. Especially when its 90-100 degrees outside. I hope it doesnt sound like im picking on you, because im not. Trying to help. There are lots of things to consider when doing a swap like this, and its hard to think about all the problems that can come up in the future.

[slows10]

Also that fuel line is braided steel. They can get wicked hot and will stay hot. Joecar said reroute it. I would do that and then also wrap it with something really good.

[Gjohnson]

I will take a look at my fuel line setup and see what I can come up with. I'll also check into picking up some fire sleeve or something to cover the fuel line in near the exhaust.

That's a good idea on the fuel filter, might as well rule that out also.

Not sure what to do on the hood, but try to add more spacers in the rear for more clearance.
This is a pic of my engine mounts. With this setup I don't think the engine moves much at all.
http://www.carshopinc.com/images/ls%20mounts%20033%20(Small).jpg

slows10,
I understand where you coming from. This has definitely been a head scratcher and a total nightmare at times. I'll see if I can run through some of the things you mentioned in your posts above. I'm not really sure what else I can do to get more air flow in the engine bay, but I'm definitely open to any ideas.

I should be home in a few hours and I'll post the logs that I got today. From what I could tell during driving, everything seems to be alot better. But we'll see.

[Gjohnson]

Ok, sorry for all the logs, but I was trying to get the most data I could. From what I can see the changes helped, but I'll let you guys decided. Today here in Tulsa it was the hottest day yet. High of 96*.

The first log is the normal log to work. Taken around 10:30 this morning, I'm guessing around 80* out. Log was from cold start.
11091


The 2nd and 3rd log were taken around 3 pm so it was probably around 95* out.
2nd log is quick and was on my lunch break running errands. Cold start, to my 1st destination.
11092

3rd log I'm done with errands, but just did some driving around for data. Jumped on the highway back to work.
11093

4th log around 6:30pm probably around 94* out.
Last log is the drive home from work. Cold start to my mom's house to pick up my kids.
11094

[joecar]

0014 is good while IAT is below 100°F which is most of the log.
0015 is good while IAT is below 100°F.
0017 is good while IAT is below 106-108°F you can see almost zero LTFT's.
0018 is good while IAT is below 100°F.

Above those temperatures, the LTFT's diverge.

Maybe B4901, B4902 are not correct.

[joecar]

BTW: plenty of logs are good, especially when annotated by the descriptions you posted in post #438 :cheers:

[WeathermanShawn]

Well, technically most of your logs look as 'normal' as I have seen yet. HO2xx look generally O.K. Adding to the MAF eliminated most of your Trims. By Log 0018, it appeared your Bank-to-Bank LTFT's have leveled off.

Still some unusual KR patterns. 9.2 max on Log 0018..hardly any throttle, so maybe something is just banging somewhere and setting off the Knock Detectors. Your Spark Advance looks bizarre..it is jumping from 36 to 30 degrees every few seconds at cruise. If thats the AC, then it looks like there must be a short. AC TQ should not do that.

If anything it proves you must still have a general heatsoak problem. It also 'proves' your wideband sensor must not have been accurate. As soon as you replaced it, your HO2xx look good.

If I were you I probably would do everything Joecar and Slow suggested..even if it is a hassle or costs you in the short-term.

Tune-wise there is nothing else to do (unless you replace the wideband/sensor and do PE Mode again)..

[joecar]

Log the STATE pids to see if the AC is being commanded on.

[Gjohnson]

Yeah, the KR has me a little concerned, because I definitely don't need that. Joe, I'm not sure what the STATE pids are. I know that I didn't have the AC turned on at all durning these logs.(which is evident from the wet undershirt I was wearing) I found the STATE pids in the list, but which ones doe you want me to log? Also, are there any other pids I should log that would be helpful?

I'm glad everything is looking good tune wise, I will see if I can get everything else lined up.

[WeathermanShawn]

GJ do you still have EGR Enabled? Or more to the point what does your Table B5907 look like? (EGR Spark Correction)..

[Gjohnson]

Yes, I still have the EGR enabled so that I can see my fuel pressure reading.

This is B5907:
11096

and Joe was asking about
B4901
11095

B4902
11097

[slows10]

Im not saying you must fix "possible" underhood heat issues, not even 100% sure it is your problem. They are issues that stick out to me. Every little thing you can adjust or fix to lower under hood temps will make a better running, more reliable car.

[WeathermanShawn]

Yes, I still have the EGR enabled so that I can see my fuel pressure reading

That probably explains where the 'mysterious' Spark is coming from at cruise. Never saw EGR Enabled (w/Spark). Thats O.K., just was bugging me.

GJ, wideband sensors are not easy to keep in calibration. You need to do heater calibrations, Free Air calibrations, and you have to turn on the sensor every time you start the car to keep the sensor from being damaged. Proof was running your WO2 as a NB did not work correctly. That was evident in one of your logs from earlier this week.

Tune-wise my only advice would be to get another separate exhaust bung for the wideband to monitor PE Mode/WOT. Everything is just a short-cut and as you can see that is not the wise way to tune.

Thats all I have tune-wise. Your closed-loop actually looks decent as of today, but every fuel/heat problem you have will rear its head when you go WOT.

Good luck..

[joecar]

The pid GM.STATE00 contains AC status bits.

[joecar]

Table B5907 should be zero'd.

[joecar]

If you log GM.DYNCYLAIR_DMA (trade this with some other pid(s), 2 channels worth), then we can see if timing is coming from B5910, B5911,

[Gjohnson]

Alright, well I got a few logs but I got caught up with game last night and fogot to add the pids, but I did zero out B5907.

11111

11112

[WeathermanShawn]

Yes, the change to B5907 seemed to eliminate the erratic Spark your last logs indicated. EGR Spark Correction adds up to 6 degrees of Spark..which your engine did not need. It also seemed to have eliminated most of the KR you were getting.

Make sure you keep that Table zeroed in all your Tunes!

Otherwise, it is actually fairly normal looking logs. Your O2's look pretty good, Trims are about perfect. IATS are very hot again. MAF a little jumpy, but functioning.

Keep working on the items described before. Also until you get your wideband properly installed, you could really shorten and clean-up that PID list..:).

Keep cool there in NE OK..:grin:

[joecar]

Grant, I am sad to say that Shawn has gone: In-Memory-of-Shawn-Sankey (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?16849-In-Memory-of-Shawn-Sankey)