Noob needs help with Roadrunner

[Gjohnson]

Alright, I know it's been a while, but I've finally got the car back together from bodywork and paint and I'm still working on the tune. I've been talking with my tuner and he says he can let me borrow his roadrunner PCM and the cables necessary for tuning, if I can find someone to help me setup a file for auto ve tuning. Can someone help me out with this? Right now my fuel tables seem to be off pretty bad and I really don't know anything about tuning.

This was my first thread and I have to thank you guys for all your help, helping me figure out what was going wrong.

http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14107-What-am-I-doing-wrong

Thanks

[joecar]

Hi GJ,

Have a read of the AutoVE tutorial: http://download.efilive.com/Tutorials/PDF/AutoVE%20Tuning%20Tutorial.pdf

Then have a read of this: http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?9896-gt-gt-gt-RoadRunner-FAQs-lt-lt-lt

[Gjohnson]

Alright, well I read through both of those links and I may just need to try it I guess. Has anyone done this using Windows 7, hopefully I shouldn't have any issues there. I will also need to read through the IAT fix, since my MAF includes the IAT.

[mr.prick]

You don't need to pull any wires on the MAF.
That is old lore. :sneaky:

Have you read the stickies in this forum?
There is a bit of work to be done with the cal_link.txt & calc_pids.txt ;)

[joecar]

+1 what mr.prick said... you just disable the MAF via the MAF sanity tables, this should get you a MAF DTC which confirms the PCM has failed the MAF (and is running from the VE).

[Gjohnson]

Alright. Well I've been reading through some more of the stickies in this section and man there's a lot of info there. I may just need to get my hands on the RR and program. I'm really more of a visual learner so it's kind of hard to just read about the data that needs to be adjusted and visualize it.

[Gjohnson]

You don't need to pull any wires on the MAF.
That is old lore. :sneaky:

Have you read the stickies in this forum?
There is a bit of work to be done with the cal_link.txt & calc_pids.txt ;)

Can you give me a little more info about this text editing. I followed the link in the faq sticky you posted and I'm not really understanding what I need to do or why. Do I need to change the text for every line listed in the link for the LS1 engine?

Also, how do I locate the MAF sanity tables your talking about?

Sorry, I'm just getting prepared here, my RR PCM should be here tomorrow or Tuesday.

[mr.prick]

The calc_pids.txt is used to define calc_pids.
An example would be a multiplier from logged EQ & commanded EQ.
"({GM.EQIVRATIO}/{EXT.WO2EQR1})"

The cal_link.txt is used to link a table from the tune tool to the scan tool.
You add or alter lines in the cal_link.txt for RTACS to work properly.

The highlighted cell is linked by {SAE.RPM} & {SAE.MAP}.
It will be multiplied by 2% because logged EQ does not match the commanded EQ.


http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee259/whitespar/RTACS-2.jpg

[Gjohnson]

Alright, got the RR PCM in today and loaded my tune. This tune is running alot better in my car, doesn't seem to be as rich. So I made a quick base log with this tune, the car is just idling with a few throttle bumps. Take a look and tell me what you think. Also, why can I not view this data in a map?

10159

[mr.prick]

Did you load or create a map?

There are a few too many pids selected in that log, reduce the amount of channels to 24.

[Gjohnson]

Alright, well I might be able to get this process started tonight. Meet up with my buddy last night and he let me borrow his LC-1 wideband so I'll be able to get started. Now I just have to figure out how to get this thing wired into my PCM and I'l be good to go.

Ok, from what I understand I should be able to wire this thing directly into the Roadrunner PCM using the EGR or AC pressure pin on the PCM harness right? If this is done, do I still need to connect the LC-1 to my laptop? I know my laptop doesn't have a serial port. I don't have a flashscan, I am using a road runner pcm, my new lap top and an auto tap to connect to the ODBII.

[mr.prick]

1998 LS1 PCM EGR Pin-Out:
C1 (Blue)
Pin 9 EGR Pintle Position Sensor Signal
Pin 65 5V Reference
C2 (Red)
Pin 62 EGR Pintle Position Ground

1999+ LS1 PCM EGR Pin-Out
C1 (Blue)
Pin 41 EGR Pintle Position Ground
Pin 47 EGR Pintle Position Sensor 5V Reference
Pin 55 EGR Pintle Position Sensor Signal

You will need a calc_pid based off {GM.EGRS} & {GM.EQUIVRATIO} or {GM.AFR}.
Make sure you know what the LC-1 analog outs are programmed to,
so you can build the calc_pid.

[Gjohnson]

Ok, apparently I'm an idiot. My buddy said that he was lending me a LC1, but I just opened the carrying case and to check it out and it's actually a LM1. Can the LM1 be wired in to the PCM and used for tuning with the Roadrunner like the LC1. It seems all the threads that I have found so far are for the LC1.

[ChipsByAl]

You can use the LM1 with the RoadRunner. You need a different cable then the one for the LC1.
Al

[Gjohnson]

You can use the LM1 with the RoadRunner. You need a different cable then the one for the LC1.
Al

Can you give me some more info on this? Is there a cable that will connect directly to the port on the road runner or do I need still need to wire it directly to the PCM. It did come with a cigarette power adapter, and a few other cables. It comes in a case with a few serial cables, inductive pickup and interface cable. But none of the cables that run from the hand held unit look like they would connect to the roadrunner. Maybe I'm missing something?

[Gjohnson]

Since I don't need this as a permenant setup, can I just use the serial cable and find a serial to usb adapter. Connect the usb to my laptop while data logging. Would the efi scan tool read the data from the OBDII and LM1 and log.

[joecar]

No, the wideband analog signal has to go to either FlashScan V1/V2 or to the PCM connector...

thru the laptop there is no means of sync'ing the AFR with the log.

Edit: reworded first sentence.

[Gjohnson]

Alright, well I assume I would use the cigarette power adapter and the serial port on the side of the LM1. Now I have a cable that connects to the serial port and it has 5 wires on the other end. Black, purple, white, yellow and red. I can't seem to find any info on how to wire up the LM1 using this serial port. Any info?

Which would connect to the EGR sensor signal and where would the other wires connect?

[mr.prick]

The analog out(s) go to the PCM.
I would buy the pins for the PCM and run "jumper" wires into the cabin.
This way you could connect any analog WBO2 at any time to PCM. :)

The serial wires would go to Flashscan V2 or PC/Laptop not the PCM.

[Gjohnson]

Ok, I think I making some progress. I replaced my passengerside O2 sensor with the LM1 wideband O2, hooked it up to the LM1 and powered up the LM1 via the cigarette lighter cable. After calibration I started the car and got a reading on the LM1 of 13.7 AFR. Now I plan to wire the analog out using output 1 to Blue connector pin 55 EGR signal and the ground to Blue connector pin 41 EGR ground.
Can someone give link me to step by step directions on how to change the cal pids so that I can log using efi live? I don't even know how to access the cal text area to update. Also, is there also something special I need to do to make the PCM read the WBO2 as a NBO2. Sorry, guys I really am really new when it comes to this.

[mr.prick]

The calc_pids.txt & cal_link.txt are in the My Documents\EFILive\V7.5\User Configuration folder.

You will need to know the programmed values of the analog out in use.
This is done with the LM Programmer software while the WBO2 is powered up.

[Gjohnson]

Ok, I will download the Lm programmer when I get home and see what I can come up with. So, will I probably be taking one of the analog out puts and replacing either either pin

66 PPL 1666 HO2S High Signal [Bank 2 Sensor 1]
or
26 TAN 1667 HO2S Low Signal [Bank 2 Sensor 1]

to provide the PCM with a NBO2 signal?

[joecar]

To provide an analog NBO2 signal you need to connect both HO2S High Signal (analog wideband signal) and HO2S Low Signal (analog wideband ground).

[Gjohnson]

I know the manual for the LM-1 says the preferred way to install the WBO2 is with a bung in the exhaust, but I don't have cats and I have the tailpipe adapter for install. Would I have more accurate readings replacing an O2? I don't want to compromise my tune results being lazy.

[Gjohnson]

Well, I decided to just use the tailpipe adapter for the time being, so I don't have to complicate thing further.

I was finally able to connect to the LM1 programmer and I can veiw those settings, but my question is do I need to set the LM1 for AFR or Lambda? Some of the threads I've read say that it is better to tune in Lambda, but the LC1 installation guide for EFI live instructs you to set it up in AFR. Also, does anyone have a link to the normal calc pids that I need for tuning with the RR. I've gone over the tutorials a couple of times and I am still not fully understanding what pids I will need. Sorry, guys I'm a banker by trade and don't typically deal with this stuff. I've found this link here http://forum.efilive.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4695&d=1234057331 but I assume I shouldn't copy and paste all the lines in this file.
Also found this calc pid file, but don't know if it would work for me. http://forum.efilive.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9645&d=1294191845

I'm not sure if this matters but my setup includes:
5.3L
LS6 Cam
T56
LM1 wideband planning on using Analog 2 output
3.54 rear end

Sorry, to keep posting all these newbie questions, but I am really getting myself confused and frustrated.

I didn't help that the LM1 that I borrowed from my buddy broke earlier and I had to get my neighbor to solder the powerplug back onto the circuit board. This just hasn't been a good day.

[Gjohnson]

I like the idea of tuning using http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-A-New-Twist-on-CALC.-VE-Table..Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table.&p=135867&viewfull=1#post135867
would this method be useful when tuning with a Roadrunner PCM or does it not matter? It looks like there is a calc text file that I would just need to copy and paste.

[WeathermanShawn]

I like the idea of tuning using http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-A-New-Twist-on-CALC.-VE-Table..Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table.&p=135867&viewfull=1#post135867
would this method be useful when tuning with a Roadrunner PCM or does it not matter? It looks like there is a calc text file that I would just need to copy and paste.

Hi there:

Refresh my memory on what type of OS you have? If you have a MAF and plan on running closed-loop, and have all the PIDS available..then yes you can use the method.

I also have the RoadRunner. A little tip for you. I would just spend the first few weeks learning how to use it. While it is awesome changing a Tune on the go..in many case it is not really necessary. One of the neat things about the RR is you can change Tunes via laptop without all the 'flashing', turning ignition on & off..etc. Just changing Tunes (while stopped) is a breeze.

As far as the LM-1, it really does not matter whether you have it set up for AFR or Lambda. It does all its real measuring in Lambda, just pick the gasoline (14.7) if you want to view AFR.

You could easily use the calc_pids.txt file referencing AFR & Lambda. Just use the one that matches your B3601.

[Gjohnson]

Thanks for your reply, I will be running a 411 PCM with MAF, DBC and I do plan on running closed loop. Oh and I will be using a LM1 wideband that will be wired into my PCM via the EGR pins. My car is a 1997 240sx, it's my daily driver and has been horrible on gas since my engine swap. Sorry, if I seem clueless but I am. My Buddy that has been helping me tune the thing sent me his Roadrunner PCM so I can get a custom tune. When I get everything lined out he will flash my new tune on a spare 411 PCM and ship it my way. I really appreciate any help I can get, this car only weights about 2850 lbs and last week I got 15 mpg.

At this point, my calc_pid file is almost completely blank. I have the next couple of days off and was really pumped about getting this tuning done.

[WeathermanShawn]

Can you run the 12212156 OS on the 411 PCM?

I just want to make sure the CALC.VE is applicable to your OS.

In any case, there is still a ton of useful information on Page 1 of the CALC.VE thread or in the attached PDF's that can help you. Helpful information on Analog WO2 Pids and BENS. Lots of links, etc..

I won't know how specific to get until I know if you can run the OS I mentioned. Its found on the Calibration Tab on your Tune. Let me know if and when you find it.

Otherwise you probably just need a calc.pid for your type of Analog Wideband and the applicable BEN. Thats pretty easy to make..Just let us know your OS...:)

[Gjohnson]

I just pulled up my tune and it does show 12212156 as the OS. Thanks I will look over Calc.ve thread again and again.

[Gjohnson]

Hey Shawn, the CalC.VET tutorial shows a pid list that I thought joecar has updated. Can you take a look at this and see if it looks correct or if I'm repeating myself.

10261

I know there are probably a ton of other calc_pids I need, but this is all I have so far.

Also, for some reason the bottome 5 pids are not showing up in the Scan tool for me to add to the Calc Ve pid list.

[WeathermanShawn]

O.K. here is what you do. The CALC.VET Tutorial is 'under construction' (as stated in the thread and in big bold DRAFT Type) and will be subject to change and updates. It has the most detailed information on how to cut, copy, paste, make MAPS etc..so its is added as a convenience only.

Page 1 of the thread and the CALC.VET Tuning Guide are the most updated in terms of calc_pids.txt, PIDS etc. So use the calc_pids found in the thread (also attached).
10265.

I do not know what you mean by your statement "the bottom 5 pids are not available to me". You mean the Pids shown in the thread? Everybody has those..they are pretty standard. When you select Pids they are all in alphabetical order. Maybe you just missed them. TPS, KR, Spark Advance..Try it again..

[Gjohnson]

I do not know what you mean by your statement "the bottom 5 pids are not available to me". You mean the Pids shown in the thread? Everybody has those..they are pretty standard. When you select Pids they are all in alphabetical order. Maybe you just missed them. TPS, KR, Spark Advance..Try it again..

I was referring to the tuning pids that Calc.vet tutorial has you create. Calc.ltftben is the only one that shows up out of the other 5.

CALC. LTFTBEN
CALC .WO2BEN1
CALC.SELBEN
CALC.PE
CALC.VET

[WeathermanShawn]

Have you done this yet?

1. Copy the calc_pids.txt file to this location, or copy/paste its contents to the file at this location on your PC:
My Documents\EFILive\V7.5\User Configuration\calc_pids.txt

Follow the thread...

[WeathermanShawn]

I know after 19 pages of a thread it may not always be easy to follow..but the status of the Tutorial is stated here:http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-A-New-Twist-on-CALC.-VE-Table..Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table.&p=139959&viewfull=1#post139959

I/We have started a Draft Copy of the CALC.VET Tuning Tutorial:

Writing a Tutorial is a major project and the Draft Copy is primarily intended to aid Joecar and myself in the Editing process. It will be eventually merged with the existing CALC.VE Tutorial. We hope to accomplish this by September 1, 2011.

The Tutorial will be subject to numerous edits. It is offered now only as a convenience to our forum readers and participants. Many of the copy and paste functions have been taken directly from the existing CALC.VE Tutorial.

User input is always appreciated. Please keep it professional and topic-related. We welcome as much participation as possible. Thank you for your patience and understanding. :).

I.E. The Tutorial is Under Construction (that means the user assumes all responsibility when using a Draft Copy not yet made for publication).

Page 1 of the thread always contains the latest information!!!

..WeathermanShawn..

[Gjohnson]

Alright, I've been working on this and I think I making some progress. The only pid that is showing as not supported right now is the WO2_serial, which I won't be using. I'm currently working on adding a LM1 analog pid to the calc.text file that will function off the EGR pins. I've created the maps and I think they are correct.

I've been using this tutorial you've created http://forum.efilive.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=10127&d=1300179307
and it's been a huge help. I won't have got this much done if it wasn't for it. Hopefully everything in that tutorial is up to date.

[WeathermanShawn]

Well your making progress but I feel we are having a language problem. The Tutorial you referenced is a Draft copy..That means parts of are not updated.

Its like if you opened a Bank. The building is done, you have all the Tellers, but you can not do foreign cash transactions yet. But, that does not stop you from operating other functions of the Bank. Get it???:grin:.

Use this instead..10266

[Gjohnson]

Ok, I saw that tutorial also, but the first one I listed gave me more detailed instructions on how to create the Maps needed. Looks like it does need filters and such too. So I'll get right on that.

[Gjohnson]

Ok, well I guess I'm still missing something. I was going to get a quick log so I could setup the maf correction map, but Scan tool still shows my analog Wo2 pids are unsupported. I wired the analog connector from the LM1 to
1999+ LS1 PCM EGR Pin-Out
C1 (Blue)
Pin 41 EGR Pintle Position Ground ----- Ground connected here
Pin 47 EGR Pintle Position Sensor 5V Reference ------- Analog output 1
Pin 55 EGR Pintle Position Sensor Signal ------- Analog output 2

You will need a calc_pid based off {GM.EGRS} & {GM.EQUIVRATIO} or {GM.AFR}.
Make sure you know what the LC-1 analog outs are programmed to,
so you can build the calc_pid.

My current calc_pid text is here 10267

I I found the settings for it in this thread http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?13380-LM-1-Programming-amp-Settings/page4&highlight=calc_pids.txt

and I changed the settings of the outputs in Lm1 programmer to match this:

For anyone else who's using V1 with LM-1, here's the programming that got my AFR's accurate, meter compared with logged data. This is with the white wire in the "E" slot; if you have the red wire in "E", programming for analog outputs 1&2 will be reversed.

Analog Output One:
2.501v @ 10.01AFR
2.501v @ 19.99AFR

Analog Output Two:
0.88333v @10:1 AFR
4.21667v @20:1 AFR

LM-1 sae_generic.txt pid:
*CLC-00-928
V 0.0 5.0 .1 "{EXT.AD1}"
AFR 10.0 20.0 .2 "(({EXT.AD1}-({EXT.AD2}-2.5))*3)+7.35 "
*CLC-00-929
factor 0.0 2.0 .2 "{CALC.AFR_LM11.AFR}/{GM.AFR}"
*CLC-00-930
V 0.0 5.0 .1 "{EXT.AD2}"
AFR 10.0 20.0 .2 "{EXT.AD2}*10"
*CLC-00-931
factor 0.0 2.0 .2 "{CALC.AFR_LM12.AFR}/{GM.AFR}"

Thanks again to 5.7 Ute!

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh40/Gjohnson7771/Other%20projects/Untitled2.jpg

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh40/Gjohnson7771/Other%20projects/Untitled.jpg

[Gjohnson]

Also, do I just paste this in the calc_pid text.
Method 2:
Using LC-1 as example:
Define CALC.LAMBDA to be {CALC.AFR_LC11}/14.7
Define CALC.WO2BEN1 (CLC-00-110) to be {GM.EQIVRATIO} * {CALC.LAMBDA}

You could also reduce those two pids into a single pid:
Define CALC.WO2BEN1 (CLC-00-110) to be{GM.EQIVRATIO} * ({CALC.AFR_LC11}/14.7)

Or does it need to replace something else?

[WeathermanShawn]

Use this response as an example. You are replacing the Serial WO2BEN with Analog..
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-A-New-Twist-on-CALC.-VE-Table..Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table.&p=139229&viewfull=1#post139229

[Gjohnson]

Ok, I attempted a log, but my Wo2 is still not logging. Can someone take a look at my Log and pid text file and let me know what I'm missing?

10271

10272

[WeathermanShawn]

Well I am not 100% sure where the problem is. Looks like the way you have things set up you would need to select GM.AFR as a Pid..:confused:.

I am not sure about the placement of your Analog WO2 Pid and resulting PRN numbers.

Op, can you PM Joecar with that calc_pid.txt file.?

[mr.prick]

Your pinout is wrong.

Connect the analog out positive to Pin 55 EGR Pintle Position Sensor Signal only.
If there is an analog out ground you can connect that to Pin 41 EGR Pintle Position Ground.

Pin 47 EGR Pintle Position Sensor 5V Reference would be used to power a senor with 5V.
Disconnect this from the analog out or you may fry it.

I suggest using the Lambda values for your pid.
In my sig is a link to setting up a WBO2 calc_pid.

Don't use multiple calc_pids to determine a multiplier (BEN)
this will slow down data collected from the WBO2 and complicate things.

Your 3 pids should be:
{Lambda} = (volts*x)+y >>>>>>built with the analog out programmed values.
{BEN} = {Lambda}*{GM.EQUIVRATIO}
{AFR} = (volts*x)+y >>>>>>>>built with the analog out programmed values & {B3601}'s values.

[Gjohnson]

Well I am not 100% sure where the problem is. Looks like the way you have things set up you would need to select GM.AFR as a Pid..:confused:.

I am not sure about the placement of your Analog WO2 Pid and resulting PRN numbers.

Op, can you PM Joecar with that calc_pid.txt file.?

Ok, will do.

Your pinout is wrong.

Connect the analog out positive to Pin 55 EGR Pintle Position Sensor Signal only.
If there is an analog out ground you can connect that to Pin 41 EGR Pintle Position Ground.

Pin 47 EGR Pintle Position Sensor 5V Reference would be used to power a senor with 5V.
Disconnect this from the analog out or you may fry it.

I suggest using the Lambda values for your pid.
In my sig is a link to setting up a WBO2 calc_pid.

Don't use multiple calc_pids to determine a multiplier (BEN)
this will slow down data collected from the WBO2 and complicate things.

Your 3 pids should be:
{Lambda} = (volts*x)+y >>>>>>built with the analog out programmed values.
{BEN} = {Lambda}*{GM.EQUIVRATIO}
{AFR} = (volts*x)+y >>>>>>>>built with the analog out programmed values & {B3601}'s values.

Thanks, I saw the thread you posted before and even downloaded the excel spread sheet. I'll try to give it a shot again.

Ok, I will change the EGR setup. From what I've read it seems analog out put 2 is for wideband and analog 1 is for narrow band. Does that sound correct? If so would I need to just hook analog output 1 to blue pin 66 HO2S High Signal Bank 2 Sensor 1 and replace my normal O2 sensor with the wideband?

[joecar]

Ok, well I guess I'm still missing something. I was going to get a quick log so I could setup the maf correction map, but Scan tool still shows my analog Wo2 pids are unsupported. In V8 S&T goto F6:Devices->F6:Logging and checkmark Automatically select ALL external analog pids.



I wired the analog connector from the LM1 to
1999+ LS1 PCM EGR Pin-Out
C1 (Blue)
Pin 41 EGR Pintle Position Ground ----- Ground connected here
Pin 47 EGR Pintle Position Sensor 5V Reference ------- Analog output 1
Pin 55 EGR Pintle Position Sensor Signal ------- Analog output 2
Pin 47 has 5V output from the PCM... you connected two outputs together... the PCM output has fairly robust circuit protection, but the LM-1/LC-1 has none, so Analog Output 2 may be damaged (DAC output driver transistor popped).


...
LM-1 sae_generic.txt pid:
*CLC-00-928
V 0.0 5.0 .1 "{EXT.AD1}"
AFR 10.0 20.0 .2 "(({EXT.AD1}-({EXT.AD2}-2.5))*3)+7.35 "
*CLC-00-929
factor 0.0 2.0 .2 "{CALC.AFR_LM11.AFR}/{GM.AFR}"
*CLC-00-930
V 0.0 5.0 .1 "{EXT.AD2}"
AFR 10.0 20.0 .2 "{EXT.AD2}*10"
*CLC-00-931
factor 0.0 2.0 .2 "{CALC.AFR_LM12.AFR}/{GM.AFR}"Those CLC #'s should not be in calc_pids, the scantool will see duplicately defined CLC's.

[Gjohnson]

In V8 S&T goto F6:Devices->F6:Logging and checkmark Automatically select ALL external analog pids.

Pin 47 has 5V output from the PCM... you connected two outputs together... the PCM output has fairly robust circuit protection, but the LM-1/LC-1 has none, so Analog Output 2 may be damaged (DAC output driver transistor popped).

Those CLC #'s should not be in calc_pids, the scantool will see duplicately defined CLC's.

Ok, you already lost me. What is V8 S&T? (Version 8 scan tool??? Do I need to update my software??)

Crap! Well I removed analog 1 from pin 47 a little while ago. Hopefully I didn't mess something up.

I will go in and delete that from the calc_pid text. shoul I just delete all that you posted and then include the calculated "heading" and description?

[joecar]

Do you have FlashScan V1 or V2...? I thought you had a V2.

[joecar]

If you have a V2, you can autoselect the external pids.

V8 software is not a scantool yet, but it allows you to configure your V2.

Edit: but you're not using V2 so ignore this post.

[joecar]

Wait, you're using the EGR port and not the FlashScan analog ports...

See attached...

Edit:
- use this calc_pids.txt, do not edit it, if you're using g*K/kPa you do not need displacement,
- log GM.EGRS (in addition to the other pids),
- when viewing the log file, use the VE (g*K/kPa) variant of the CALC.VET pid.

[mr.prick]

Do you have FlashScan V1 or V2...? I thought you had a V2.



Ok, from what I understand I should be able to wire this thing directly into the Roadrunner PCM using the EGR or AC pressure pin on the PCM harness right? If this is done, do I still need to connect the LC-1 to my laptop? I know my laptop doesn't have a serial port.
I don't have a flashscan, I am using a road runner pcm, my new lap top and an auto tap to connect to the ODBII.

This is a non-conventional setup Joe. :hihi:


Does the PCM need the low signal for a simulated NBO2?
I know the LC-1 has a low signal ground that emits 0.1v (or something in that range)
like the stock NBO2's.

[Gjohnson]

Yeah, sorry. I'm old school. My tuner lent me his auto tap cables and the roadrunner. I don't have a flashscan at all.

Thank you, I will save the attached file above and attempt a new log first thing in the morning.

[Gjohnson]

Ok, I've got another log here, but still no AFR logged. 10281

[WeathermanShawn]

Ok, I've got another log here, but still no AFR logged. 10281

No way to tell. Its either your calc_pids.txt file is still messed up or your approach to wiring your wideband up is not successful.

Your limited log shows a lot of +LTFT's. You can always tune the closed-loop portion of your MAF, Trims, and VE table through the CALC.VE method here:http://download.efilive.com/Tutorials/PDF/Calc.VE Tuning Tutorial.pdf (http://download.efilive.com/Tutorials/PDF/Calc.VE%20Tuning%20Tutorial.pdf)

Then when you get your wideband working you can progress to the CALC.VET method. Personally I went 'New School' to serial wideband and would never go back to Analog. Its just Plug & Play. Gives you more time to tune and less time troubleshooting never-ending wiring problems..:).

[Gjohnson]

Ok, guess I will try the closed-loop portion. Quick question, should I be able to put a meter on the analog out and test for a voltage range to see if its the output signal?

[Gjohnson]

Ok, I've started the Calc.vet method, but in my tune {B0101} is setup as g*kpa. I only seem to have pid Calc.Ve table %. Does anyone have the calc_pid.text for Calc.ve table g*kpa?

[WeathermanShawn]

Ok, I've started the Calc.vet method, but in my tune {B0101} is setup as g*kpa. I only seem to have pid Calc.Ve table %. Does anyone have the calc_pid.text for Calc.ve table g*kpa?

All the CALC.VE calc_pids have both..but try this one just in case..

[mr.prick]

Why are you logging {EXT.WO2LAM1} when the analog out is connected to the EGR pin?
{GM.EGRS} should be logged and a calc_pid based on that would need to be made.

The calc_pid will be ({GM.EGRS}*x)+y

Read page 10 of the LS1 Fuel Pressure Sending Unit Tutorial (http://download.efilive.com/Tutorials/PDF/LS1%20Fuel%20Pressure%20Sending%20Unit%20Tutorial. pdf)

[Gjohnson]

All the CALC.VE calc_pids have both..but try this one just in case..

I tried pasting that in and I still can't fine it. Would it show up as another name? I have a Calculated Ve, Not corrected?


Why are you logging {EXT.WO2LAM1} when the analog out is connected to the EGR pin?
{GM.EGRS} should be logged and a calc_pid based on that would need to be made.

The calc_pid will be ({GM.EGRS}*x)+y

Read page 10 of the LS1 Fuel Pressure Sending Unit Tutorial (http://download.efilive.com/Tutorials/PDF/LS1%20Fuel%20Pressure%20Sending%20Unit%20Tutorial. pdf)

I will see what I can come up with on this. Thanks for the link.

[WeathermanShawn]

I tried pasting that in and I still can't fine it. Would it show up as another name? I have a Calculated Ve, Not corrected?

You kinda lost me on that last comment. Just use the entire calc_pids.txt file I attached from earlier today. You must be altering your calc_pids.txt..that file has worked flawlessly for over a year for hundreds of users.

You can also easily change B0101 to read % in the Scan Tool, under 'Edit" properties'.

Again..use this file!

[WeathermanShawn]

Remember, you are now doing the CALC.VE Table (closed-loop).

Here what your CALC.VE Table Pid will look like..See, its both % and g*k/kPa..

[joecar]

Guys, goto post #50 and see the attachment, and see the Edit... :doh2:

GJ is passing his wideband analog voltage in thru the EGR port, see CLC-00-050 in that calc_pids.txt.

[WeathermanShawn]

Hi Joe:

The OP has kinda lost me on this thread. He wanted to go back to just closed-loop Tuning since he was unable to go 'full-loop'.

I was not sure if he could still use the 'full-loop' calc_pids.txt.

Do you think he is good to go?

[joecar]

Hi Shawn,

I'm badly lost... what is full loop...? GJ's log file did not include GM.EGRS... I thought he was going to log wideband AFR thru the EGR port...?

[WeathermanShawn]

Sorry Joe, I am getting lazy on my terminology. 'Full-Loop' meaning utilizing the CALC.VET Method..both closed-loop and open-loop (PE Mode) Tuning. I won't use that term again..:).

In any case he stated in post #55 he now wanted to go back to the CALC.VE method..just closed-loop. No WO2. Without a WO2 signal CALC.VET will not be accurate when PE Mode occurs. So, I gave him the link to CALC.VE Table and the corresponding calc_pids.txt.

Perhaps if he had used your calc_pids.txt in Post 50..there would not be any confusion..:confused:

OP did you ever run Joecars calc.Pids.txt in post 50?

[Gjohnson]

Sorry for all the confusion guys, I still want to log my WO2 signals but decided I would try to practice with what I currently had. I'm usually more of a visual learner so I figured I would try to get use to tuning without them right now.

Thanks Joe, I will try the new pid. texts you edited. Thanks for all your input guys.

Oh, and yes I did use the orginal calc_pid.text Joe posted in #50 but Joes has edited it since then. If I can't get my Ve Table pide to load correctly, I will adjust {B0101} like you posted. Thanks, I figured there had to be a way to do that.

[WeathermanShawn]

Well, GJ a thread like this shows how easy a topic can become intertwined and somewhat confusing.

I would suggest this. If you need advice about actual Tuning as it relates to CALC.VE & CALC.VET I will be more than glad to help. You can always do that with a new thread, or a reply in the existing CALC.VE or CALC.VET threads.

Non-conventional calc_pids.txt files and complex PCM wiring issues are not my forte. I will leave that for others. I would just keep that topic separate from my Tuning questions. That will probably get you the help you need and save some frustration and confusion on this end.

Good luck..:).

[mr.prick]

You can change the VE table units in the tune.exe properties.
Edit> Properties (Enter+Alt)

Get the WBO2 set up, fuel trims are only going to take you so far.

[joecar]

GJ, if the CALC.VET pid does not load, do rightclick->More Info on it to see the reason.

[Gjohnson]

Alright, well I made another really quick log with Joe's edited calc_pid.text from post 50. I know I need to remove pids VET % and VEN % and I need to figure out why Afr_egr isn't changing. The LM1 log is showing an AFR ranging from 13.7 to 14.8. Anyway, here's the log.


10303


Thanks again, guys.

[mr.prick]

The WBO2 is not sending voltage or it's not connected to the pin properly.

[WeathermanShawn]

Your very lean..up to +16.4% LTFT's.

Any chance you can do a log that includes cruise and some decent throttle?

Are you 100% sure your MAF is physically hooked up and operating? Its odd that your Cylinder Air and SD Air are matching with LTFT's that far off..:sly:..

[Gjohnson]

The WBO2 is not sending voltage or it's not connected to the pin properly.
Well, I doubled checked my voltage again tonight and yes the pin is installed correctly. I have the output going to pin 55. Now, it seems that my voltage coming from analog 1 and 2 are really low, but I believe that is the factory voltage settings. The voltage from the output seems to hoover around .5 volts. Is that too low to be picked up by the EGR port?


Your very lean..up to +16.4% LTFT's.

Any chance you can do a log that includes cruise and some decent throttle?

Are you 100% sure your MAF is physically hooked up and operating? Its odd that your Cylinder Air and SD Air are matching with LTFT's that far off..:sly:..

Oh and just for giggles I went ahead and checked the MAF sensor and it is hooked up properly. I will try to get a good log tomorrow.

[mr.prick]

It will pickup voltage that low.
How exactly is it connected?
Did buy a PCM pin and insert it into the connector or is the wire just stuck in there?

[Gjohnson]

It will pickup voltage that low.
How exactly is it connected?
Did buy a PCM pin and insert it into the connector or is the wire just stuck in there?

Well, I have a ton of left over wires and PCM pins from where I converted the harness, so I used one of those and inserted it in the PCM connector like all the other wires. It wouldn't be anything that could be controlled by the tune, right? Like, the PCM not monitoring the EGR voltage because I'm not running a EGR setup and it's been tuned out???

[Gjohnson]

Well, I just thought about it and I've been using a good known ground off of my main relay to check the voltage on the ananlog out. Maybe I have an issue with the ground coming off of the analog out put wire going to pin 41. I'll check that tonight and see if it could be the problem.

[joecar]

1999+ LS1 PCM EGR Pin-Out
C1 (Blue)
Pin 41 EGR Pintle Position Ground <--- wideband analog ground
Pin 47 EGR Pintle Position Sensor 5V Reference
Pin 55 EGR Pintle Position Sensor Signal <--- wideband analog signal


Do you have it wired like that...? Which wideband wire colors did you use...?

[Gjohnson]

Yeah, that's how I got it wired up, but I need to check the cable anyway. My buddy that let me borrow the LM1 has a kit with everything possible, except the stripped 3.5mm stereo plug for analog out. So, I had to go down to Radio shack and buy some supplies to solder up a plug of my own.

When I check the voltage on analog output 1 and 2 they seem to be within spec of what the LM programmer is showing, but I don't remember verifying the ground. If for some reason the ground isn't setup properly on the plug, can I use a good common ground?

[mr.prick]

There is a table for enabling EGR, {B1301}. ;)

[Gjohnson]

Yeah, I thought about that and pulled up the tune file in tune tool this morning before work. So this needs to be enabled for the voltage to be read? I will get right on that after work!

[Gjohnson]

Alright, well got home and I enabled the EGR system of the tune and boom, I've got a WO2 signal. Thanks again guys. I made a quick log of the car just sitting in the garage and reving the engine. I can already see that I need to adjust the WO2 EGR formula , because the system is reading around 11 to 12 AFR and the LM1 is showing around 14.8. When I was trying to figure out the voltage from the analog signal, reset the LM1 programmer to factory default settings. I think Joecar setup the EGR pid formula using voltage I posted earlier in this thread. Although, I feel like the 11 to 12 seems right with my MPG and the pure gas I smell in my exhaust.


Here's the Log: 10318

[joecar]

B1301, cool, good deal :cheers:

Check what the voltage is and what the LM-1 says when you're in closed loop.

Also check this: with the LM Programmer software check these things:
- what voltage:AFR points is the LM-1 programmed to (e.g. 0V=7.35AFR, 5V=22.35AFR);
- what stoich AFR is the LM-1 programmed to (e.g. 14.7).

[Gjohnson]

Alright, I'll probably have to check closed loop tomorrow. It's pretty late here now. I checked the LM-1 programmer earlier because I thought that may be the issue and this is what I came up with. Oh, and the front page says the stoich AFR is programmed to 14.7 gasoline.
Analog 2
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh40/Gjohnson7771/Other%20projects/afr2.png

Analog 1
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh40/Gjohnson7771/Other%20projects/afr.png

[joecar]

GJ,

So you have Analog Out 2 (the first pic) connected to the EGR port...?

Those AFR:voltage points do not match "{GM.EGRS}*3+7.35" in your calc_pids.txt...

set Analog Out 2 to these points:
0V = AFR 7.35
5V = AFR 22.35

[Gjohnson]

Ok, well I finally got a workable log. Take a look: 10324

Time to go to work!

[WeathermanShawn]

O.K. GJ..

Still a little light on the Throttle, but you got some data.

Just verifying..You have a 5.3L engine..Stock fuel Injectors? Stock Cam?

Couple of notes. According to your SELBENS, which in this case are all LTFTBENS, you are actually in high positive Trims. You probably need to add at least an average of +18% to your entire MAF Table to get to a normal range. (See Tutorial).

I am curious about your IAT's. They are really running high. Maybe your at sea-level in a warm climate, or your just revving the engine in the garage?

Once you get it to at least 50-60% Throttle and Highway speed we will have a clearer picture of your Tune.

[joecar]

Interesting log.

Wideband seems to be working, in CL AFR is tightly hovering around stoichiometric (14.68-14.70).

What Shawn said, is your intake air coming from hot engine bay...? Can you plumb it for fresh/cold air...?

Add to your MAF table as Shawn said, and paste VET into your VE table (after filtering out throttle transitions)... then take another run on the highway.

[Gjohnson]

My fault guys, I thought you were suppose to be light on the throttle. I will make a new log tonight.

My setup is the HO L33 5.3L, stock LS1 fuel injectors, LS1 intake, Z06 Cam and springs, a custom 4" intake piping with a K&N filter and a F-body tune. This last log was taken by driving the square mile around my neighborhood last night and could easily get the throttle and speed up as well as some quick highway driving. As far as the engine bay temps are concererd, I can see what I can some up with. I like in Tulsa, OK and I know last night when I took the log is was around 75* out with about 75% humidity.

I will look over the instructions it the tutorial again and figure out how to add to my MAF table.

Here's an old pic, but you can get the idea of what my intake setup looks like:

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh40/Gjohnson7771/DSC04255.jpg

[joecar]

MAF: you multiply-paste the CALC.SELBEN map into B5001.

VE: you paste the CALC.VET map into B0101.


Note: for both of those, the map must have the same units as the table.

[WeathermanShawn]

GJ, Nice setup.

Forgive my ignorance. So where exactly is the MAF and IAT setup at?

Normally IAT should be within 0-10F of ambient temperature at cruise. You could probably easily get a 100% Throttle log. Just safely use an on-ramp to I-44..:grin:.

Monitor KR. Hopefully your B3618 is adequate..Should be at least 1.16.

I don't know why your gas mileage is so bad. Ironically the MAF adjustment will allow for more injector flow..:confused:. Perhaps in a future log you can monitor injector flow and your NB voltages.

Good luck.

[Gjohnson]

Thanks Shawn.

The Maf and Iat are combined since I'm running a truck MAF. It's located right off the intake filter, right in front of the power steering resivor.

Well, my MPG has actually been improving since the last tune file my tuner sent me to upload to the roadrunner PCM. My last fill up I got right at 18.6 MPG, but we were still expecting more considering my car only weights 2850 lbs.

I will look over my map settings or VE table display when I get home. I was trying to get the tables copied over last night, but when I pasted over the VE table it showed 50% of the table at 0.0. I assume the units where different, so I will double check tonight.

[joecar]

...

I will look over my map settings or VE table display when I get home. I was trying to get the tables copied over last night, but when I pasted over the VE table it showed 50% of the table at 0.0. I assume the units where different, so I will double check tonight.

GJ, post your log file.

[joecar]

You pic shows that the LS1 is a fairly compact engine, able to fit small spaces.

[Gjohnson]

GJ, post your log file.

Joe, which Log file are you referring too? My latest log is in post #85, I will make another log this evening.

Or are you referring to my tune file? If so, I can PM you the tune. I'm not sure if my tuner would like me posting it in the thread.



Yeah, suprisingly there is still quite a bit of room in the engine bay. There are a couple of people on the Silviav8forums that are working on turbo setups and I've even seen a twin turbo setup.

[WeathermanShawn]

GJ:

I ran your log using 5.3L. This is what I came up with using an unfiltered CALC.VE Table.
Maybe it is just an unit conversion if you are getting zeros. Your VE Table will not really be accurate until B5001 has a lot of 1.00 SELBENS in it.

I can understand keeping your Tune private. Anymore it is not that big of a deal, but as long as the Injector data is not jacked up..we probably don't need to see it.

Looks like your near 90F today. Should make for an interesting log..

[Gjohnson]

Ok, well I'll take a look at that calc.ve table when I get home. I can also email you my tune if you would like to see what I'm working with, just let me know.

[joecar]

Oh, ok, latest log in pst #85, gotcha.

[joecar]

Yes, be sure to filter out TP transitions.

[Gjohnson]

Ok, well here's my Ve map from the tune last night. I don't understand what I've done wrong with this table. Mine looks nothing like yours.


Averages
10331

Numbers
10332

[joecar]

You didn't set the displacement; while viewing log do this:
go Edit->Log File Information->Vehicle Options, and next to Engine enter the displacement in cc, click Ok, and save the log file.

OR:

the map's data pid is CALC.VET [%] when it should be CALC.VET [g*k/kPa].

[joecar]

On a map, I like to checkmark the Units box under each of the Data/Rows/Cols tabs, this makes the units show up on each axis and on the map title, so you see what you're doing (and sanity check).

( remember to save the map if you checkmark the Units box )

[joecar]

GJ,

Is your B0101 table displayed in [%] or in [g*K/kPa]...?

Your VET map must use the same units as your B0101.


( Shawn's map above is in [%] )

[WeathermanShawn]

Also, since you are not utilizing Lambda directly. Select the 'loose' CALC.VET Filter as show in the Tutorial. The 'tighter' filter may inadvertently filter out your data.

[Gjohnson]

Alright guys, thanks for all the tips. I will check the items you talked about, but I did select the Loose Calc.vet filter shown in hte tutorial. I've tried the map in % or g*K/kpa but I guess I will try again. Here's another log that's longer and has more throttle. My only problem is I can't really stay on the throttle much without speeding like a bat outa hell. Here's a copy of the new log.

And a copy of what my Ve table looks like in my tune.

10333


10334

[WeathermanShawn]

Well, here is what I got. I Selected Calculated VET, BEN Corrected (g*k/kPa) from the Data Tab.

Also, you don't have the Lambda Pid selected, so you are not getting a CALC.WO2BEN, and hence no SELBEN. Your BENS are being corrected solely from your LFTBENS:confused:..

[WeathermanShawn]

Your getting zero's because you are choosing % and you have not saved the log file with displacement entered.

[Gjohnson]

Ok, I didn't realize you had to select the displacement for each log file. I selected the displacement when I started logging last week and thought it would carry over to each log.

Now, the Lambda pid shows as an invalid pid for my setup. What do I need to correct to get this pid logging?

[Gjohnson]

Ok, I finally figured out the stinkin map!

10337

[WeathermanShawn]

Yea, success!

My Displacement saves. Maybe you need to enter the details in your main Scan Tool. there should be no need to re-save after every log.

I'm not sure on the Lambda Pid. If it is the one Joecar fixed for you, it should work..:confused:.

[Gjohnson]

Yeah, it's definitely Joecar's calc_pid.text, it's the only thing I trust now. I wouldn't trust myself with these pids, period!

So, should I go ahead and copy that map over to the VE table, or should I wait until the Lambda pid is fixed and then relogged?

[WeathermanShawn]

Yes copy Filtered VE Table into your B0101. (check Tutorial..should be copy with labels).

Also, very important! See attached B5001. You need to paste, multiply with labels (see Tutorial)..I'm going by memory here.

Then your next run should result in all SELBENS being close to 1.00. That will result in a new updated VE table. So, you just rinse & repeat until perfection (normally 1-3 runs).

We will have to work with Joe on what is occurring with the Lambda Pid. You'll need it for PE Mode, etc..

[Gjohnson]

Ok, I will follow the instructions in your tutorial, I just didn't know if not logging the Lambda pid would have an effect on these maps and the VE table.

[WeathermanShawn]

It looks like you successfully applied the Closed-Loop filter. I.E., PE Mode '0' should be all it mapped..that looks correct.

Also, make sure B0701 (Cat Prot) is set to DISABLE for the duration of this Tune.

One of the reasons your vehicle might be getting poor gas mileage is in addition to the high EQ you are commanding in PE Mode (1.23..thats a lot), your PCM is adding an additional +16% via the Trims.

Getting your LTFT/SEL Bens to 1.00 will help considerably. An EQ of 1.16 would also help.

We will figure out Lambda..

[Gjohnson]

Ok, I set B0701 to disable, which should have been a no brainer for me considering I don't have cats. Anyway, I looked over my log again and noticed the high IATnumbers you were talking about. I guess I will need to make some sort of fresh air funnel. The funny thing is, I have a large hole around 5 x 6 inches that the K&N filter hoovers over but I guess nothing is forcing the air up. Right now I haven't even replaced the plastic shield covering the bottom of the front bumper to the oil pan.

[WeathermanShawn]

B0701 ENABLE adds 1.25 EQ (via hidden table), your PE Fueling is 1.23, and Trims add +1.16. Now you can see where some of the fuel has been going.:).

Roger that on the fresh air. The F-Body you can open up the Lid/Radiator area for a DIY 'cold-air-intake', which allows you to run close to ambient temperature at cruise. At WOT even your ECT can drop by 10 degrees F. You are losing some HP and fuel density charge by those high IATS, so hopefully you can figure something out.

I don't see your CALC.AFR_EGR Pid selected. I believe you need that Pid Enabled. What happens when you right-click on the CALC.WO2BEN Pid? It should tell you why it is invalid.

Later..

[Gjohnson]

Shawn, I just doubled checked my last log and it shows values and movement in the Calc.WO2ben field as well as the Calc.Selben field. Are these numbers incorrect? If so what should I be looking for in these pids?

Also, I did enable B0701, but won't be able to get another log posted until later this evening.

Also, how do I know when I am in PE mode? Is there anything special I need to due to tune PE mode or will just repeating this past method until perfection solve most issues.

[WeathermanShawn]

Well when I load in your calc_pids.txt file from post # 50, all I get for CALC.WO2BEN is a red X. I.E., no value. The SELBEN is all from your LTFTBENS.

I would like to get your WO2BEN Pid working. What value are you getting?

You can tell when you are in PE Mode when the PE Mode Factor reads 1. '0' means closed-loop.

Just to clarify. B0701 should read DISABLE. ENABLE will add tons of unwanted Fuel. Please set to DISABLE.

You can log as is. But we need to work with Joe on those PIDS. I don't want to undo all his work on it. Sounds like one or two of your Pids are not Enabled.

[WeathermanShawn]

GJ:

Its also possible I need to re-configure my Scan Tool to read your LM-1.

I'll get back to you in a couple of hours. If everything works O.K., there is nothing special you need to do for PE mode. That's the beauty of this system..

[Gjohnson]

Sorry, for the confusion. Yeah, I did set the B0701 to disable.

Ok, well these are the values I'm showing:

Calc.Selben
Min. ___________ Avg. ____________ Max.
0.8204 ________ 1.1194 __________ 1.2278

Calc.WO2ben
Min. ___________ Avg._____________ Max.
0.7961 _________ 1.0105 ____________ 1.5084

[WeathermanShawn]

GJ:

My Scan Tool is not set-up for Analog Wideband..I may need a Tutorial on how to re-configure it from Serial to Analog.:grin:.

If your getting WO2BEN data and getting SELBEN Data while in PE Mode, then all is well.

Try another log this afternoon. 100% TPS is always good, but that may not always be easy depending on local speed limit laws and traction.

Post up when you get new data..Make sure you update that MAF SELBEN!

[joecar]

Ok, I didn't realize you had to select the displacement for each log file. I selected the displacement when I started logging last week and thought it would carry over to each log.

Now, the Lambda pid shows as an invalid pid for my setup. What do I need to correct to get this pid logging?If your B0101 units are [%] then you need to set the displacement for each log file.

If your B0101 units are [g*K/kPa], then you can ignore displacement.

[joecar]

The log file in post #85 shows CALC.WO2BEN working, I see valid data for it (it even hugs 14.7 tightly in CL).



BEN from Serial WB {CALC.WO2BEN}

Expression:
factor = {GM.EQIVRATIO}*{CALC.AFR_EGR}/14.7
is VALID

[joecar]

Shawn,

GJ isn't using the EXT analog interface, he's using the pid GM.EGRS...

you should be able to view his AFR and WO2BEN if you use his calc_pids.txt (attached).

[joecar]

Ok, I finally figured out the stinkin map!

10337Yah :cucumber::banana: map are easy once you figured it out :cheers:

To make things easier, remember to checkmark the Show Units box under each of the Data, Rows, Cols tabs (and then save the map again).

[WeathermanShawn]

Shawn,

GJ isn't using the EXT analog interface, he's using the pid GM.EGRS...

you should be able to view his AFR and WO2BEN if you use his calc_pids.txt (attached).

That did it..

Thanks!

[Gjohnson]

Ok, got a new log with some full throttle pulls. Only thing is it seems like the TPS only shows a maximum of 89%. Anyway here's the log.

10341

[WeathermanShawn]

Well, your closed-loop portion looks a lot better..but if your WO2BEN is accurate, your really lean up top.

Time to do another Rinse & Repeat. We need All the SELBENS to read 1.00.

[Gjohnson]

Ok I just made another log, but I can't tell if I'm improving or not. Do I need to ease up a little on the throttle? Maybe I'm driving too eratic??????????

10348

[WeathermanShawn]

GJ:

I see several problems.

The high IAT makes it tough to nail down WOT fueling. Evaporation of fuel, density charge etc. Thats one of the highest IAT's I have ever seen at full throttle.

The MAF signal also bounces a lot. Its probably the location of the MAF/IAT relative to the Intake manifold etc. Turbulence, etc.

So it looks like from 8000 Hz on (MAF) you need about 20% more fueling. I.E. +20 % to all the MAF Values above 8000 Hz.

Sometimes a good technique for your situation is to take your original MAF Table (prior to CALC.VE) and add +20% to the ENTIRE MAF curve. This keeps the same Airflow slope and hence your fueling will look less erratic. That way your closed-loop portion will match your PE Mode a lot cleaner..

Your CALC.VE will also look a lot cleaner. The toughest Tunes to nail down are when sometime starts out with high positive Trims. So, again +20% to Table B5001 should be added (from your original Tune).

[Gjohnson]

Ok, I guess I will give that a shot, but it looks like I still need to come up with a solution to my IAT woes.

[joecar]

Yes, need smoother/progressive throttle, use brakes to apply more load... don't do too many passes.

Might need to visit your local 1/4 mile track and do a few passes there.

Check your throttle linkage/cable.

[WeathermanShawn]

Ok, I guess I will give that a shot, but it looks like I still need to come up with a solution to my IAT woes.

Yea, every Tune has a challenge. I think you can figure it out.

You an always post up a screen-shot of your MAF table.

Note: In general your MAF Table should keep the same logarithmic slope as stock. If yours does not, fueling can be more erratic..

[Gjohnson]

Ok, well I've started over by multiplying the MAF table by 20% like you instructed. I will try to get a new log sometime today.

Also, I will try to get a better log with smoother throttle and brakes applied for more load. How many passes should I do, to get a good useable log. Do I need around 5 mins of driving with 2 to 3 smooth throttle pulls or is that too little/much????? What would be ideal?

[WeathermanShawn]

A decent log is at least 45 minutes-1 hours with a variety of driving. Slowly apply throttle, try to stay in the same gear for as long as possible. WOT I prefer 100% Throttle over 70-80%. That way the injectors are fully open and all the 'Dynamic' Fuel parameters are in play. IMO, part-throttle PE Mode is very hard to consistently hit fueling. If you can hold WOT for at least 2-3 seconds, that should be 20-30 frames which is pretty good.

So the ideal technique is as much of closed-loop below 4000 RPM as possible and all WOT should be at 100% TPS. Like Joe said, don't get crazy. If you need to find a track to do WOT, then do that. Your vehicle is darn light, no need to end up in a ditch.

When we apply your Filter, we can always filter out ALL Throttle Transients. That makes for a very smooth MAF/VE Table.

Good luck and drive safely.

[Gjohnson]

A decent log is at least 45 minutes-1 hours with a variety of driving.

Dang man. I don't ever get that much seat time, the last 3 logs I made I did with my 2 kids seating in the back seat. I will have to see what I can come up with.

[Gjohnson]

Ok, so I finally got a chance to get a new log with 20% added to the original tune's MAF table. Got about 20 mins of driving logged. Oh, and how do I recalibrate my TPS? It only reads around 89% when I have the throttle wide open.


10366

[joecar]

You have to do two things:
- make sure the throttle cable is not adjusted too tight (open the clip, push pedal to floor (letting adjuster move), close clip));
- make sure the pedal arm has enough sweep to fully open the throttle blade.

[WeathermanShawn]

GJ, I think thats a pretty decent Log. Technically the <8000 Hz of the MAF Curve is now slightly rich, but the >8000 Hz is looking better. The few errant AFR's above 8000 Hz look like shifts/etc.

In every MAF-Tune there is the MAF Hz that corresponds to when PE Mode initiates. Yours generally looks like look about 8000 Hz. So <8000 Hz your MAF curve needs to be about +17% over stock. >8000 Hz you may need the full +20-22% to have proper fueling.

Good Tunes will merge this area (~8000 Hz) so the entire MAF slope still remains smooth.

Hope that makes sense. If not you can post a screenshot of your original MAF curve..If it makes sense to you, further Tuning will allow ALL your MAF SELBENS to get close to .98-1.00..which is near perfect..

Your fueling is much better than a week ago. Congrats your on your way!

EDIT: P.S. I would still Edit B3618 to read all 1.16. Your current EQ to 1.25 is wasting a lot of fuel..

[Gjohnson]

Shawn, I think I understand where your coming from on the 8000hz but I'm a little unclear about the +17% and +20%-22%. Will my final tuning give me this result or are you saying I need to add these perecentages to my existing tune.


This is my new MAF curve after pasting the last log results.
10367

Also, on B3618 are you saying I should go and change that entire table to 1.16 before I make my next log?


10368

[WeathermanShawn]

Shawn, I think I understand where your coming from on the 8000hz but I'm a little unclear about the +17% and +20%-22%. Will my final tuning give me this result or are you saying I need to add these perecentages to my existing tune.


GJ, I meant +17%-+22% based on your original stock MAF table.
Based on your current Table, that would be: (Use these--current table changes).

All Approximate Changes
-4% from 1500-6000 Hz
-2% 6000-7000 Hz
+/- 0% 7000-8000 Hz
+2% 8000-9000 Hz
+4% 9000-12,000 Hz

This is my new MAF curve after pasting the last log results.
10367

Those percentages I gave you should keep the same general slope as your current MAF Curve. Slightly less <8000 Hz, slightly more >8000 Hz. Thats how you blend.

Also, on B3618 are you saying I should go and change that entire table to 1.16 before I make my next log?

10368

O.K., since your units are Lambda. I am suggesting .86 from 0- 7200 Rpm. Thats a safe amount of fueling..one EQ/Lambda figure is easier to Tune. Once your Tuned you can change the slope and amount to your desire.


GJ, this is just based on experience. Your original MAF was off. I think my suggestions will get you to a good spot. Your VE table is also pretty close to ideal. Again, some safe WOT Tuning would be next on my list..once you get your TPS to read 100%.

[Gjohnson]

Alright Shawn, I've adjusted the tables you described and will get a log tomorrow. Thanks

[Gjohnson]

Alright I got another quick log this morning on my drive to work, with the changes Shawn suggested.

Haven't had time to adjust my tables with the new maps yet.

10369

[WeathermanShawn]

Congrats GJ, you have a very solid Tune now!

The change to one Lambda Value of .86, along with the final tweaking of the MAF Curve did the trick. Your SELBENS look real good. Both your unfiltered and filtered CALC.VET values look great. Your Trims are perfect. Your TPS is now 100%. Your KR is minimal to non-existent.

For readers following this thread, this was about as tough of a CALC.VET Tune as you could get. GJ opted for a more unconventional approach to wiring up his LM-1, but persevered and was successful. His Tune started out with a lot of +Trims and erratic PE Mode fueling.

We made these changes:

1. Disabled CAT Prot B0701.
2. MAF adjustment ranging from +17% < 8000 Hz, +22% > 8000 Hz.
3. Changed B3618 to 1.16 EQ (.86 Lambda).

I believe GJ did 4-5 log runs before success occurred.

So, from here on out a lot of your Tuning is just tweaking. More 'hardcore' guys like me change their Tune very other week, but I am quite impressed by how well it turned out. Personally I might just keep B3618 where it is. Its easier to hit one fueling value than an ever-changing one.

So, whats your next project?

[joecar]

Also, on B3618 are you saying I should go and change that entire table to 1.16 before I make my next log?


10368GJ,

Not quite... your pic of B3618 shows Lambda units... 1.16 Lambda is way different than 1.16 EQR (note: Lambda = 1/EQR)

In your tunetool, go Edit->Properties->Display and set Commanded Fuel units to EQR.

[joecar]

I like viewing VE in unit of g*K/kPa...

in Edit->Properties->Display set VE units to g*K/kPa...

in the scantool you would then use CALC.VET [g*K/kPa] which means that you don't need to enter displacement on each new log.

[joecar]

Yes, this turned out very well, good job guys :cheers:

As the tune converges, compare CALC.VET (corrected VE) and CALC.VEN (un-corrected VE), you will see the waveforms coinciding.

[joecar]

Shawn,

you should also turn on the Show Units on you map Data/Row/Col tabs... :)

as we edit the tutorial, we should try to show units in any images of maps/tables.

[Gjohnson]

Thanks guys. Definitely glad things are coming together and I don't know if it's just mental or what but I can definitely feel more power.

Anyway, I guess since I'm still a noob, I'm wondering where I should go from here with my tweaking? Should I continue to Log and update my VE table, while leaving B3618 and B5001 alone.

[joecar]

There are some areas of B0101 that you will never hit, you have to lmake an educated guesstimate (look at the surrounding VE surface).

If you're happy with VE and MAF, then do some idle tuning (may or may not be necessary, but it's a good learning exercise).

If you go to the 1.4 mile dragstrip, you can do multiple passes, tweaking B3618 between 4000-6000 rpm to get best ET/TS.

[WeathermanShawn]

Shawn, you should also turn on the Show Units on you map Data/Row/Col tabs... :)

As we edit the tutorial, we should try to show units in any images of maps/tables.

Copy that. Will do Joe.Will update Page 1 of thread and update Tutorial shortly!

GJ, like Joe says Idle is usually a Tuning project, but you may have picked the right cam asfar as Idle. I don't think it is in your head you are feeling more power. Once you hit the 'sweet spot' on EQ fueling your car will pick up power.

I would just work on getting more ambient air into your intake. The F-body has a nice set-up with a Lid and MAF location. That would do a lot for you. More WOT Tuning would also be in order, but a dyno or track might be more appropriate.

Let us know..

[WeathermanShawn]

Page 1 update..

Something like that Joe? Let me know, or Edit accordingly.

Thanks..Shawn..

NOTE: use the CALC.VE pid units that match your B0101 table, i.e. either % or g*K.kPa.
To Show Units, check Box on your map Data/Row/Col tabs...

[Gjohnson]

Alright. I may give the idle tuning a shot tonight and see see what I come up with. I assume it's basically the same process I've been doing, but I do some searching on the forum. I think that may help as well, I seem to have a real issue with getting the car started most days. Sometimes I have to crank the car over 3 or 4 times and wait for the fuel pump to prime in between. Hopefully that will help.

Oh as far as the Intake air is concerned I will be working with my neighbor down the street which use to work with sheet metal and he is planning on building me a box and cold air duct from my front bumper.

[WeathermanShawn]

By the way I like the Blue paint job on your vehicle. Nice color and depth. Did you do the work on that too?

As far as the remainder of your CALC.VE Tune. Here are a few additional Tips:

1. Regardless of the Filter, Deceleration Fuel Cutoff (DFCO)..where the injectors cut off during shifts or rapid throttle cutoff, is hard to filter out. Another option is to DISABLE DFCO. Set B3313 to 140C. That will give 'cleaner' EQ's in PE Mode.

2. You can also set B4105 to read 450 mv (all columns). That equates to stoich AFR. Impact is minimal, but can help create a smoother Trim Matrix.

3. Set-up a filter just for 100% TPS. I'm convinced PE Mode Tuning is better when you mash the Throttle. So you would have basically below 2800-4000 Rpm at closed-loop, and any PE Mode Tuning done at 100% TPS.

4. Tweak B5001, but do not chase errant MAF Freq. Better to Tune MAF in blocks of ~ 3000 Hz. Look for an average..don't chase one bad BEN..

So we are not abandoning you, but you have pretty much completed Basic CALC.VE Tuning. Feel free to post up at anytime.

Have fun with your ride..

[Gjohnson]

By the way I like the Blue paint job on your vehicle. Nice color and depth. Did you do the work on that too?



Thanks Shawn, yeah this project has been my first attempt at Engine swap, bodywork, tuning and paint job. It's hard to tell from the pictures but the paint didn't cover properly, so I actually have to sand the car down and reshoot.

[joecar]

GJ,

If you did it perfect the first time, then you would have nothing to do now and you would be bored... :doh2:

Looks good to me... :cheers:

[joecar]

Shawn,

Yes, that looks good (page 1 of VET thread), I made a minor edit.

[WeathermanShawn]

Thanks Joe:

I'll make the minor edit along with an image change in the Draft CALC.VE Tutorial (this weekend). I'll have some time to clean up some little errors here and there.

[Gjohnson]

Alright. I just found your idle tips and tricks thread and I just blew my mind. Won't be trying that tonight, I think I'm getting a headache now.

[Gjohnson]

Alright Shawn, your the freaking Man! After being overwhelmed with the idle tuning tutorial I figured I would just search for a fix for hard starting.(since that's really my issue, I don't have a problem with the idle) That's when I stumbled upon to this post here.


Table B4307 Desired Airflow is a good place to start (as previously mentioned). Usually that means adding air. You can look at some of the Idle Tutorials on how to do that.

Another Table that can really help is Table B4343 Startup Friction Airflow Correction (depending on your OS). You can easily add 1-2 g/s to the specific ECT you are having trouble with. That extra air decays rapidly..so you just get the additional airflow at startup.

Hope that helps.

Anyway, found {B4343} and added 1g to 20, 40 and 60. Put the key in to crank her over and she started right up! I'm feeling good now! I shut the car off and tried multiple times and no more hard starting issues. I seriously had to crank her over 4 times earlier just get her started, it was actually pretty embarissing. People where walking over to ask if I needed help or something. Thanks

[WeathermanShawn]

Thanks GJ:

Idle can be confusing and nerve-wracking. I don't know why I didn't think of B4343 before. Thats a good one. That should really help you out.

Thanks for the compliment. Its good your doing searches..you can find a lot of answers that way.

Keep us updated..:cheers:.

[joecar]

Can you post the link to Weatherman's hard-start post mentioned in post #159.

[Gjohnson]

Sorry, I finally found it in my history when I got home. Here's the link http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?13243-Hard-to-start-when-hot&highlight=hard+start

Ok, another quick question. I was logging on the way home and when driving in 6th gear at around 55 mph I would I slam on the gas for WOT and get at least 5 to 10 seconds of log time before reaching excessive speeds. Can I use this data for WOT tuning or is this pointless????

[Gjohnson]

Also, when I working with my Main VE table is there a method to the madness? Like, should the numbers gradually increase from left to right or should it be sort of color coded?

It also looks like I'm not spending enough time in the higher RPM ranges, my Vet maps don't seem to show anything over 2800 rpms. How long would you say I need to keep the rpms at those levels to start logging data for the table?

[WeathermanShawn]

Sorry, I finally found it in my history when I got home. Here's the link http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?13243-Hard-to-start-when-hot&highlight=hard+start

Ok, another quick question. I was logging on the way home and when driving in 6th gear at around 55 mph I would I slam on the gas for WOT and get at least 5 to 10 seconds of log time before reaching excessive speeds. Can I use this data for WOT tuning or is this pointless????

Personally I don't like Overdrive gears for WOT (sorry). You see MAF Airflow is usually so low and Fuel Evaporation seems high. I hate to say it, but you have to stick to the main drive gears. I usually use 3rd (M6) and do a 45-80 Mph run. Speed Limit here are 75..so thats reasonable.

SO, IMO its not the best data to use..

[WeathermanShawn]

Also, when I working with my Main VE table is there a method to the madness? Like, should the numbers gradually increase from left to right or should it be sort of color coded?

It also looks like I'm not spending enough time in the higher RPM ranges, my Vet maps don't seem to show anything over 2800 rpms. How long would you say I need to keep the rpms at those levels to start logging data for the table?

You need at least 10 frames for most of the Upper Rpms. 10 frames= 1 second. If you baby the Throttle in, you will have to filter out a lot of TPS transitions. You have two choices..a Dyno or if you need someone to blend your VE table, I could probably do it. You don't learn that way, but its pretty easy to estimate VE's after you have done a few..

[Gjohnson]

Alright, well I just tried to stay in the gears longer to get more table coverage and I really think everything is coming together nicely. Here's another log for anyone that's interested.

10404

[WeathermanShawn]

GJ:

I loaded up your latest calc_pids.txt file.

Look at frame 224. Are you really getting a 17.1 AFR or are you showing something different?

[Gjohnson]

Well, I ran home for lunch and I made a log for that drive. Now from the last log posted above there seem to be a big change in the VE table. I saved the changes, but I'm not sure if I should keep them. Also, I checked out the frame above and when I was logging on the way home it does seem that I am getting severly lean up top. What should I do to correct this? Here's the new log with even more changes to the VE table. Not sure if keep these changes, I almost feel like I have less power.

10407

[WeathermanShawn]

GJ, its almost like the 20-22% MAF changes were lost.

If you look on the attachment I posted at the MAF Freq 9852 Hz you are showing 291 g/s of air. That looks like the stock value. At some point I thought we added +22% above 8000 Hz, which should have gotten you well over 340 g/s.

Are you sure you have been saving the changes or do you inadvertently apply SELBENS back to the original Tune?

1. Either MAF Flow to low
2. Wideband inaccurate
3. Running our of injector/Fuel pressure.

Right now your MAF flow looks like it is back to stock..:confused:

P.S. You are under a Tornado Watch, so be careful out there!

[Gjohnson]

Thanks for the warning on the weather. My bankers and tellers are already asking me to go home early, because they're listening to the radio in the back.


GJ, its almost like the 20-22% MAF changes were lost.

If you look on the attachment I posted at the MAF Freq 9852 Hz you are showing 291 g/s of air. That looks like the stock value. At some point I thought we added +22% above 8000 Hz, which should have gotten you well over 340 g/s.

Are you sure you have been saving the changes or do you inadvertently apply SELBENS back to the original Tune?

1. Either MAF Flow to low
2. Wideband inaccurate
3. Running our of injector/Fuel pressure.

Right now your MAF flow looks like it is back to stock..:confused:

P.S. You are under a Tornado Watch, so be careful out there!


Man I'm not sure what I did, but I see what your talking about. I just pulled the original tune, the good tune from earlier this week and the current tune and the MAF Flow changed some how. I guess I'm going back to my earlier tune, but here's my question. My VE table from the current tune looks good as well as my VET vs VE numbers, and SELBEN. Would I be ok to copy over the VE table from this tune to the tune from earlier this week or will that throw some other things off?

Another log from the way back to work.

[joecar]

GJ,

are you saving each flashed tune using Save As (which appends an incrementing _nnnn number to filename)...?

you should be able to compare your current tune (with low MAF) with an earlier tune (having good MAF) by doing File->Load Alternate Calibration and clicking the difference button (red arrows pointing both left and right).

[Gjohnson]

GJ, do you have the tune from prior to this happening...?

Yeah I still have it, that's what I was comparing the MAF tables to.

[joecar]

ok, good, you found the difference comparing feature :cheers: I use it to sanity check any changes I make.

[WeathermanShawn]

Man I'm not sure what I did, but I see what your talking about. I just pulled the original tune, the good tune from earlier this week and the current tune and the MAF Flow changed some how. I guess I'm going back to my earlier tune, but here's my question. My VE table from the current tune looks good as well as my VET vs VE numbers, and SELBEN. Would I be ok to copy over the VE table from this tune to the tune from earlier this week or will that throw some other things off?

Well I guess you can. We know everything above 4000 Rpm's is 100% MAF anyway..

Probably a clean slate is best as far as B5001. Start with your stock MAF table and multiply by the percentages I gave you (+17-22%). Name it a new name and save like Joecar stated.

I'm sure we can get it worked out. I'll review your last log this evening, but B5001 is the priority right now..

[joecar]

In the scantool, there's an option for the tunetool to automatically save the tune file with an incrementing filename when you do Save As...

from the scantool, Edit->Properties->Folders, set Template For Auto-Generated Filenames to xyz_<seq> where xyz is the name of your tune file.

[joecar]

I name my tune files this:
12212156_0001.tun
12212156_0002.tun
12212156_0003.tun
(the tune tool increments the _nnnn)
. . .

I then name the log files logged against each tune this:
12212156_0001_0001.efi
12212156_0001_0002.efi
12212156_0001_0003.efi
12212156_0002_0001.efi
12212156_0002_0002.efi
12212156_0003_0001.efi
12212156_0003_0002.efi

That makes it easier for me to match up log files with tune files.

[joecar]

(I don't remember why I had to say that)

[Gjohnson]

Thanks for the info Joe, I need to start saving my tunes and logs that way.

I went back and loaded the tune that I know is good and made 2 short logs. Both logs were about 10 mins long because they were on the way to and from coaching my basketball team, but everything is looking better.

10412

10413

[WeathermanShawn]

GJ, it is better, but something is still wrong. Your AFR's actually go leaner and leaner as you increase TPS, RPM, and MAF Freq.

I.E., your SELBENS are still +15% > 8000 HZ. I don't know if it is your MAF, injectors, or fuel pressure. According to CALC.VE you still need to add +15% above 8000 Hz.

[WeathermanShawn]

Its possible your MAF may be 'bad'. Its very worrisome your fueling goes that lean.

I just want to make clear though on the MAF scale. What does Table B5001 Value for 10,000 Hz read on your current Tune. Stock is 290 g/s. If you made the appropriate changes yours should read 354 g/s.

If it does not we still have not calibrate the % differences correctly.

Any way you post a screen-shot of your current MAF Curve from say 6000 Hz-12,000 Hz?

[joecar]

Yep, something is going wrong, let see your MAF table (as Shawn asked).

I'm wondering if your wideband needs attention.

When did this start to happen, do a compare of tune files before/after.

[Gjohnson]

Sure, I'll post the MAF table this evening when I get home from work. I left the laptop at home today. I'm not sure when this started, I'll have to wait until I get home to review the other logs.

[WeathermanShawn]

GJ, I have been mulling over a few issues.

First we have to make absolutely sure your wideband reading is valid. The readings appear valid around stoich, but we are basing 100% off those readings. Can you calibrate it, or 'worst' case find another?

Based on your wideband it appears your MAF is under-reporting Airflow. See high IAT's affect MAF Freq (higher IATS = Lower MAF Freq) which means less airflow. Extremely high IATS may make Tuning virtually impossible. Are those IAT's valid? Its a pretty cheap sensor, so perhaps a new one is in order.

We may be able to 'fix' this by just upping the reported MAF Airflow, but I am concerned that may be a fudge.

The last option is to by-pass the MAF Tune-wise. You just run a closed-loop SD Tune. All your airflow values will come directly from the VE Table, but you still get Trims etc. I have attached Page 9 of the AUTOVE Tutorial that describes what you need to do.http://download.efilive.com/Tutorials/PDF/AutoVE Tuning Tutorial.pdf (http://download.efilive.com/Tutorials/PDF/AutoVE%20Tuning%20Tutorial.pdf)

Let us know what you want to do. My preference might be to try 1-2 more logs with your MAF Table adjusted correctly, and if that does not work proceed with one of the other options..

[Gjohnson]

Alright, well I do know that the LM1 does have a calibrate button on it, so I should be able to do some calibration. Do you think I could be having an issue with the sensor, because it's located in the tailpipe and not a bung closer to the manifolds.

Curently, I'm planning on working with my neighbor sometime this weekend to build a air box, so I wasn't planning on logging again till then.

[WeathermanShawn]

Alright, well I do know that the LM1 does have a calibrate button on it, so I should be able to do some calibration. Do you think I could be having an issue with the sensor, because it's located in the tailpipe and not a bung closer to the manifolds.

Possible. Do a 'Free Air Calibration'. I would move it away from the tailpipe. You might need a heat sink type bung if working with manifolds ( I'm not sure on that one).

Curently, I'm planning on working with my neighbor sometime this weekend to build a air box, so I wasn't planning on logging again till then.

Cool. I'll be interested in the results..

[Gjohnson]

Ok, here's another pic of my table. This is the original Maf table that I did all the adjusting per Shawn's post #140.

GJ, I meant +17%-+22% based on your original stock MAF table.
Based on your current Table, that would be: (Use these--current table changes).

All Approximate Changes
-4% from 1500-6000 Hz
-2% 6000-7000 Hz
+/- 0% 7000-8000 Hz
+2% 8000-9000 Hz
+4% 9000-12,000 Hz



10426

[WeathermanShawn]

Well I can see we had a little communication problem. Percentages can be tricky.

Attached is a 2002 Chevy Camaro OS 12212156. The only parameter I have changed from stock is the MAF Calibration Table B5001.

I altered Table B5001 + 18% 8000 Hz and below. Above 8000 Hz, I added +22%. I then smoothed the curve twice. Notice at 10,000 Hz it reads 354 g/s.

This Table should eliminate all your Trims and if your MAF is good eliminate your Lean PE Mode. Copy with labels B5001 and paste with labels into your current tune.

This is adding a lot to the MAF, so I would not go above this. Its somewhat of a interim patch until we can figure out the real problem.

On your next log, if you can hit 10,000 Hz on the MAF..that would be really nice. You'll probably need to hit over 4000 Rpm's to do it..:).

[Gjohnson]

Shawn, thanks for all your work on the MAF log, I really appreciate it.

Quick log with the new MAf pasted in. Not sure if I made it to the 10,000 hz I just made it to work and can't view the log on work computers.



10429

[WeathermanShawn]

GJ, it does not look good.

MAF changes made no difference. I.E., you made the correct changes but according to your wideband you still get leaner and leaner as you open the throttle. Dangerously lean.

We just tuning in circles here. Your closed-loop portion of CALC.VET is working..Your NB's look good. I think you need to try another wideband.

You have done everything right tune-wise, but mechanically there has to be an issue. I would not try any more PE Mode Tuning until we can verify these wideband readings.

Running your engine if these AFRS are correct will not be good..

If anybody else has some suggestions, let us know. His fueling never changes regardless of MAF changes (in PE Mode/WOT).

[Gjohnson]

Alright, well I do have another W02 sensor I can try to swap out for the LM1 or my tuner was even saying he could send me his LC1 if that might help. I guess I need to figure out where my promblem lies.

[Gjohnson]

Ok, Shawn I think you may be right about the MAF malfuntioning. My check engine light came on, on the way home. I pulled over to see what the issues was, I didn't have a code reader with me, but I used the scan tool to find out that there were a few MAF malfunction codes.

Also, when I'm driving around I try to keep an eye on the LM1 display and it does seem to lean out pretty often, but I don't recall see some of the high AFR numbers that the dashboard is showing. Although that could be because I have to see what's going on in front of me too.

How do I bypass the MAF and rely soley on the Ve table, would that be safer considering the MAF mabybe on the fritz.

[WeathermanShawn]

Well we are moving a little out of my specialty..but:

1. Set C2901 to 1
2. Set C2903 to 1

If your transmission or IAT sensor fits this description, then read this post: http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15813-Noob-needs-help-with-Roadrunner&p=142408&viewfull=1#post142408

Make sure you actually throw a DTC (this is imperative to fail the MAF). If the MIL light bothers you, you can disable it via P0101-P0103.

I suppose you can log the same PIDS, and then you want to construct a MAP like the attachment below. You would then paste and multiply the SELBEN vs Table B0101.

Again, this is not my specialty so your not going to find an exact Tutorial like CALC.VET.

If after failing the MAF, if your WO2 readings are still off, then all along it has probably been the wideband or wideband location..

[joecar]

Sanity check the wideband: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mb4VmDd0ao

to do that, the wideband has to be powered (e.g. from vehicle battery) and on V2 go Scan Tool -> Data Logging -> Display WO2 Data where you can view the AFR.

[Gjohnson]

Joe, remember I don't have a V2. Is there a way for me to check it without it?

Nevermind, just watched the video and I should be able to use the LM1 display to test.

[Gjohnson]

Alright, well I did the sanity test on my W02 and everything seems to be fine. I still haven't been able to get with my neighbor to get a cold air box built, so that's what I'm still waiting on.

[WeathermanShawn]

Hi GJ:

Joecar and myself discussed your case in great detail (off-line). One thing that you should highly consider is re-locating the wideband location from the tailpipe to a bung location (manifold or header).

The reasons are numerous which we can get into greater detail if necessary.

Can you locate the wideband bung within 1-3" of the NB location?

[Gjohnson]

I can work on that this weekend. I talked to my tuner a little about that last week and it looks like I have 2 options. I can figure out how to get my W02 to simulate my N02 signal for the PCM or I can have my tune reconfigured to adjust air and fuel based on a single N02 reading. Which do you guys think would make the most sense?

[WeathermanShawn]

I'll let Joecar comment on the wideband simulation. I know it can be done, but is that just because it negates having to weld in another bung?

As long as you have valid wideband readings..thats all were after. Personal preference is 2 NB's and a wideband, but you know most about your set-up..I would just hate for you to pursue another CALC.VET and still not know for sure if your AFR readings are valid.

Let us know. We can decipher your log regardless. Any word on your MAF? That MAF signal was pretty jumpy at WOT. Like you said perhaps getting more fresh air into the MAF will help.

We will be standing by..:).

[mr.prick]

Have a bung welded in. :bangin:
At most it will cost $50.00 and is worth the effort.

Neither option you were given is good for CL tuning.
Let the stock NBO2s do their thing w/LTFTs and use the WBO2 for WOT.

The NBO2s will tell you whether your WBO2 is configured and working properly too.

[joecar]

If you have cats, wideband in tailpipe is only accurate at WOT... for PT tuning this will not give the right lambda since the cats store/release oxygen.

Also, a lot of exhaust systems have leaks at each joint (especially band clamps), so at the tail pipe the wideband will read leaner.

[joecar]

The LM-1 and LC-1 have the ability to provide a narrowband signal (in addition to the wideband lambda)...

you wire the signal/ground wires of the wideband to the NBO2 signal hi/lo in the NBO2 harness connector.

An extra bung like mr.prick said is the best solution.

[Gjohnson]

Thanks for the info Joe. My setup doesn't have Cats and with my current work schedule I can't see making it to an exhaust shop to have a bung welded in anytime soon. I'll try the narrowband signal from the LM-1 when I get a chance tomorrow.

[WeathermanShawn]

Gj, just that we are all on the same page here. Based on your last log there is nothing wrong with your NB's..so I am a little confused.:confused:.

Are you going to have one WO2 reading and one NB?

[Gjohnson]

I was planning to remove one of my N02's and replace it with the W02. Like Joe was saying above, "The LM-1 and LC-1 have the ability to provide a narrowband signal (in addition to the wideband lambda)... " From what I understand, there a 3 outputs on the LM1 analog signal. A ground, a W02 signal and a N02 signal. I plan to use the N02 signal from the Lm1 for my missing N02 so that the PCM will have all the readings it needs and I will have the W02 much closer to the source.
:

[WeathermanShawn]

Cool..

Now I get it..:grin:.

[Gjohnson]

Alright, well I made a quick log with the W02 moved to the passenger N02 bung, the only problem is I don't remember exactly which of my modified tune files I'm running. Oh, well, I guess I can figure that out later. Anyway, here's the log

10496

[WeathermanShawn]

GJ, I don't know what it wrong.

In normal operation your wideband and NB's look fairly normal. Under PE Mode/WOT you are going seriously lean..:confused:. Even your NB at WOT reads below 100mv indicating extremely lean.

I am not an mechanic, so I do not know if this is an injector or fuel pressure problem. But, one thing I noted was the following:

Frame: MAF (Hz) MAF (g/s)
2713 9103 227
2714 8292 170
That is a serious drop in MAF frequency and airflow.

I know the MAF is 'bad', I just don't know if the internals of your car is creating a loss of airflow, or if it is the MAF itself.

[joecar]

Alright, well I made a quick log with the W02 moved to the passenger N02 bung, the only problem is I don't remember exactly which of my modified tune files I'm running. Oh, well, I guess I can figure that out later. Anyway, here's the log

10496You're now using 25 pid channels, this slows the sample rate to 5 samples/second... delete say SPARKADV for now.

[joecar]

Alright, well I made a quick log with the W02 moved to the passenger N02 bung, the only problem is I don't remember exactly which of my modified tune files I'm running. Oh, well, I guess I can figure that out later. Anyway, here's the log

10496Ok, in CL your two HO2Sx1 voltages indicate both NBO2's working (one is the wideband emulated NBO2 signal).

Which bank is the LC-1 emulating the NBO2 signal on...?

At part throttle CL, VET and VEN diverge, and LTFT's indicate fuel is being added to maintain CL stoich... looks like the MAF table is too low... apply the MAF correction and log again... if VET and VEN still diverge then we have to find out what is going wrong.

At WOT, the MAF signal seems unsteady, i.e. has a ±30 g/s swing... as RPM increase during WOT, MAFFREQ seems to stay almost at the same value... something is wrong with how the MAF is measuring, or with the MAF itself... this is causing the leaness as Shawn said.

You MAF is under-reporting airflow at PT and WOT, this is causing SELBEN to be positive thru-out your log.

[Gjohnson]

Alright, well I just for refrence it looks like the tune I am currently running is from a few weeks ago when we originally thought the tables were correct. It does not include the 20% MAF table change that Shawn had directed. If I remember right, I swapped back to this tune for testing purposes to see if the lean issue would correct, apparently I never swapped back. I will swap over the newer tune with the 20% corrected Maf table and re-log to see if there are any changes.

Oh, sorry I forgot to remove the H02 pids. I started logging them the other night to make sure I wiring the N02 signal from the LM1 to the correct bank, apparently I forgot to change that also. Bank 2 is receiving the emulated N02 signal from the LM-1.

[WeathermanShawn]

If loading in the correct Tune does not work, I would suggest a test run by-passing the MAF.

1. Change C2901 to 1
2. Change C2903 to 1

You should immediately get a MIL (thats good). You can still log the same Pids for ease and convenience. That will run your fueling based on the VE Table Airflow (closed-loop). Hopefully the values are correct or close.

Does the car 'feel' normal power-wise? Any misfires at all?

[WeathermanShawn]

Also a precautionary note to you and to others following this thread.

If during Power Enrichment Mode you do not see your fuel enrichment..cease the test immediately. This would be analogous to having zero (0) oil pressure while driving.

GJ, not to be an alarmist..but an engine can not tolerate that degree of leanness for long.

I suppose next step would be investigating rail pressure (fuel)..

[joecar]

You can leave the HO2Sx1 pids, I like to watch them... instead remove VSS or SPARKADV.

[joecar]

+1 on what Shawn said:


...
If during Power Enrichment Mode you do not see your fuel enrichment..cease the test immediately...
...

At any significant load (which includes WOT), do not run lean.


Even if no knock is heard, there will be sharp rise in combustion chamber temperatures, enough to cause damage.

[Gjohnson]

Man, I really hope I didn't mess anything up. Do I need to inspect anything to make sure there was no damage?

Well, I'm not sure what these last logs are telling me. I loaded the corrected tune from a few weeks ago, that we shawn had adjusted the MAF table on and made a few logs. As you can see from the logs, the car runs really rich with some of these changes. Sorry, because I was on the wat to practice and then on the way to pick up my kids the logs are ony 10 to 15 mins long.

1051010511

Now after reviewing these logs I decided to correct some of the tables using the directions in the VET tutorial, pasting the VE table and pasting and multiplying the MAF table and it seems the results even seem worse. At one poing the car almost stalled when coming to a stoplight. Here's the log after the changes:

10512

[WeathermanShawn]

The results are getting worse because the MAF Airflow table and VET tables are diverging instead on converging. You see when you get ridiculously high BENS like 1.44..you will get a VET ~ 140%. And when you apply that BEN against your MAF..its just gets worse and worse. Thats why the 'tight' CALC.VET filters out Lambda >1.06. It does not allow for bogus data.

Like anything else the CALC.VET is a model of airflow. If bad data goes in, bad data comes out. Your closed-loop looked decent on Log 0003, but your wideband continues to read extremely lean. No adjustment to the MAF is working.

Depending on what Joecar or your Tuner thinks, I would by-pass the MAF (see above posts on instructions). That is the only 'cheap' way to tell if it is the MAF. I might start with your stock VE Table..with all entries multiplied by 15%. If you get your MIL and a MAF DTC, then proceed with a closed-loop SD Tune. If during PE you still go lean, shut it down..There will be no way to properly tune it if the fuel is not reaching the cylinders.

Thats my best advice..

[joecar]

At this point I would not trust the MAF, so I would disable it too.

[Gjohnson]

Should I use the existing tune with the MAF disabled or should I revert back to a previous tune or the original tune???

Ok, shawn I some how missed your section about using the stock Ve table plus 15%. So I'll give that a try.

[WeathermanShawn]

I would just go back to your original (or stock) Tune. Almost all your fueling has come from MAF changes..and they did not work under load.

Depending on what B0101 originally looks like..As a precautionary measure add +15% to all values. You will still get Trims, so closed-loop should work as before.

You can post it up again (B0101) , but if you start getting BENS of 1.44 again, it will be one step closer to figuring out if it is fuel starvation..

[joecar]

Might be a good idea to check fuel rail pressure... check it at idle, and then what it does when you quickly snap the throttle open.

Edit: snapping open the throtte blade places a momentary high load on the engine (and then the load drops as the revs quickly catch up, and on an LS1 the revs catch up very quickly); you have to view the gauge reading during the moment that the throttle is snapped open, the gauge reading is useless after the load drops (i.e. as the revs catch up). See post # 237 below.

[Gjohnson]

Alright, may have to pickup a fuel pressure kit from the local parts store.

Ok, well I've got the orginal tune all setup now and I'll take get another log first thing in the morning.

[WeathermanShawn]

Good deal!

Make 100% sure you get a MAF DTC (MIL preferred) for low performance. We need to make absolutely sure the MAF is failed via the software.

Good luck..:).

[Gjohnson]

Ok, please take a look at this for me. I wanted to get this setup properly since I have to leave the house by 6:30am. Ok so I changed the MAF fail values to 1 like you said and I also pulled pin 31 from the red PCM connector which is MAF signal, but I'm not getting a MIL. I took a really quick log and it seems the MAF is not reporting, but again no MIL.

Log: 10515

[WeathermanShawn]

Your O.K. GJ.

You are getting a DTC (current) for low MAF (according to your log). Sometimes the MIL is not set to off, or it takes two trips..it does not matter in this case.

You did everything right..MAF is failed and you are still getting Trims.

Your all set to go..Keep an eye on that wideband..should be very interesting to see what happens..

[Gjohnson]

Awesome. Thanks again. I'll keep you posted.

[Gjohnson]

Ok, got a fresh log. I haven't had a chance to review it yet since I just made it to work.

10516

[WeathermanShawn]

NO, same problem.

Under load as your RPM increases your AFR goes to 19.232 or a BEN of 1.6354.

Ironically your Trims look pretty decent (closed-loop).

Well, we are still putting the entire diagnosis on the wideband reading, but that has been tested several times. Plus on your last log even your NB readings at WOT were less than 100 mv.

It appears to be an issue of extreme fuel starvation. I would try that fuel rail pressure test next.

Does it feel like it has lost power or is it misfiring?

[Gjohnson]

Ok, well I'll see about picking up a fuel pressure test kit asap. Just for refrence, I'm running stock LS1 injectors, stock LS1 fuel rail and a corvette fuel filter/regulator. I changed my fuel setup about 4 or months ago and relocated the fuel filter next to my fuel tank and I have about a 12 foot stainless steel braided fuel hose that runs from the fuel filter above the fuel tank to the fuel rail. Do you guys see any issues with the actual design of this fuel setup?

I have felt some changes in the power level as well as some misfiring but I thought it was due to the tuning changes or even the car running rich at times.

So are you thinking that my MAF and W02 may actually be good and I've been dealing with a fuel pressure issue or is the MAF still in question?

[WeathermanShawn]

I'll let Joecar comment of the fuel set-up. He may want to see some of your Injector Flow Rates etc., to see if it is software or hardware related.

Its hard to say 100% if the MAF is 'bad'. IMO, the actual location is in question. The F-body has the MAF an inch away from the TB..I never get a MAF signal like you do, but I have never seen AFR go progressively lean under load.

Joe, does he need to pull a spark plug to check for combustion damage or gets his fuel delivery fixed first before worrying about any engine damage?

[Gjohnson]

Joe, does he need to pull a spark plug to check for combustion damage or gets his fuel delivery fixed first before worrying about any engine damage?

Oh man don't say that. That's all I need. I hope to God there's no damage. I've really never been heavy on the throttle at all in this setup, because I've still be trying to get use to the power and because the car hasn't been running due to paint and body work. So hopefully I'll be ok. Actually, the last few weeks of tuning have been the first and only times I can remember actually going completely WOT.

[WeathermanShawn]

GJ I apologize if I have overly concerned you.

I do all my logging thru BBL-pass through. So, I set-up my Laptop with all sorts of audible and visual alarms. If I get KR, my alarm goes off. Same with the wideband. I set up a threshold of 1.06 Lambda. In my world every vehicle would come automatically with a wideband. Just like oil pressure. Its that important.

When you first started tuning your LTFT's were +20%. You were already extremely lean. Without tuning you would have been extremely lean even at part-throttle.

I am just suggesting a precautionary inspection. I mean we are talking an AFR of 19.4 at 84% TPS at 4700 Rpm. That is a lot of heat on those pistons...

[Gjohnson]

Well, I appreciate the concern Shawn, but I am stressing a little about this now. I hope I didn't damage anything, I really can't afford to replace the engine at this point. I've had the project running for almost 2 years now, but I've only driven about 4,500 miles on her so far. Hopefully I'll be ok. When I started the build I replaced the fuel pump with a new Walbro 255, I wonder where my issues start. Shouldn't my log show warnings from the knock sensors?

[WeathermanShawn]

Luckily it looks like your Spark Advance at higher loads has been pretty low..which in retrospect may have saved you. Also when when we by-passed the MAF, the spark went to the Low-Octane Table.

So, your KR has been minimal and your cylinder pressures from Spark have been conservative. I'm no expert on detonation..just wondering if a simple compression check and pulling some plugs might actually make you feel better..

[joecar]

GJ,

Your description of the fuel system sounds ok... see what the pressure gauge says.

If you have difficult access then just pull only 1 or 2 plugs and check them... damage/overheating if present will be apparent;
if access is easy then pull of them, but take care with the plug wires to avoid damage.

Two possibilities:

- wideband sensor is good: this points to what (think about MAF and VE grams/cylinder, and CL trimming (to stoich), OL commanded fuel (to B3605/B3618), and IFR).

- wideband sensor is bad (happens): replace just the sensor, and do heater calibration followed by free air calibration.

I know you can't post your tune file, but maybe since you've been modifying it yourself then your tuner might be ok with it...?

Or start from the stock file, and apply only your changes...

[Gjohnson]

Guys, if you PM me you email address I can email you the tune I'm working with. My tuner is OK with you guys reviewing it, I just don't want to post his work online for everyone to see.

[WeathermanShawn]

GJ:

My own personal policy as an 100% unpaid tuning enthusiast is solely to help people. I do very little via PM or E-mail because I believe it is the interest of all to see and learn. This thread has been very educational and has had a lot of viewers. It would not be fair to them to not share a solution.

So, I prefer to solve this online. To respect your Tuner's privacy, how about the following; Take a Stock Tune, make your own changes and post it up. What if your Injector Flow has been wrong, or your Knock Sensors desensitized. Personally I would want as much help as I could in solving it.

Let me know, but I prefer sharing tunes and results..:).

[slows10]

Guys, if you PM me you email address I can email you the tune I'm working with. My tuner is OK with you guys reviewing it, I just don't want to post his work online for everyone to see. Not to be a jerk or anything, but I bet there aint one person who would be interested in your tune from that tuner. Other than making sure you are safe with it. Sounds like a bunch of wasted time with that tuner. He sounds a bit proud to me, esp when he cant perform high school auto shop diagnostic work. Again I dont mean to sound harsh, But engine mechanical condition comes before tuning. A fuel filter and a pressure check should be done prior to tuning. when doing a pressure test it should be done with a gauge with a long enough hose that can be taped to the windshield for pressure at WOT. A simple check on the rail at idle is not enough.

[joecar]

I agree, reading at idle is not sufficient, he needs a reading at load.

[Gjohnson]

Ok, well I checked with my Tuner and he doesn't have a problem with me posting the tune. I just wanted to check with him first before I took the liberty of posting something that I did not create. And for the record my tuner has been a great help durning this process there's just really isn't a whole lot he can do long distance considering I live in OK and he is in PA. I'm sure if I was local a simple fuel pressure test and filter check would have been accomplished.

Here's another log on the way home, but I stayed out of the throttle as much as possible.

10522

And the tune for any tha would like to take a look at it. Now this is my original tune with +15% to the VE table and all the MAF values set to DTC.

10523

[Gjohnson]

Ok, well I pulled the 1st 2 plugs on each side and the plugs them self look fine, no issues at all. I don't have a ton of room, but I tried to get a light into each cylinder and inspect. I can't see much at all, but I don't see anything out of the ordinary. (But again I really can't see) I don't have my compression gauge at the moment, I let my dad borrow it a few weeks ago.

[WeathermanShawn]

Nothing in your Tune looks out of the ordinary to me. I am assuming your Injector Flow Rate is proper for your fuel pressure.

I am thinking two things here. One is check the rail pressure. Two would be the wideband sensor need replacing or calibrating. I mean we are making an entire diagnosis based on one instrument reading (WO2) which in science is never a good idea.

Maybe we should check your Analog voltage offset also. Even at stoich it seems to be reading more in the 15.0-15.5 AFR's range than at 14.7.

Wideband and injectors. Not much else left..:).

Thanks for sticking with it. Must be stressful at times..

[Gjohnson]

I belive the injector flow rate is proper but I guess I need to check that. How would I go about checking the flow rate? I'm running stock LS1 injectors.

I stopped by a local parts store tonight but they didn't have a fuel pressure kit for rental, so I'll have to check another parts store tomorrow on my lunch break. Would you guys say it's safe to hook the MAF back up or should I just continue to roll around in SD mode?

Yeah, I was thinking about the issue about relying solely on the W02 readings, but I think the N02 voltage from the first log this morning coresponds with the W02 readings. (I could be wrong, but I think Joe said that was true.)

Well, thanks again Shawn. This has been pretty stressful, mainly because I'm only grasping certain parts of the entire equation, but you have no idea how much help this forum has been. I can't imagine how stressful this would be trying to blindly figure my way through this ordeal.

[WeathermanShawn]

You could go back to MAF-closed loop. That way you have a High-Octane and Low-Octane Spark etc..

Why not just stay in the closed-loop portion of the Tune until we figure this out. Look at B3616 and just keep the TPS under those thresholds.

I forget which MAF Calibration gave you the best trims. I.E. +/- zero (0) Trims. Maybe that is the one that was +18% over stock.

I agree even your NB's showed lean during WOT.

Drive conservatively for awhile (probably like you did before Tuning)..:grin:..

[joecar]

Fix these out of range values:



Engine Calibration.Torque Limiting
{B6615} Max Torque, Front Axle, was out of range when loaded.
{B6616} Max Torque, Rear Axle, was out of range when loaded.
{B6617} Max Torque, Front Prop Shaft, was out of range when loaded.
{B6618} Max Torque, Rear Prop Shaft, was out of range when loaded.
{B6619} Max Torque, Trans Input Shaft, was out of range when loaded.
{B6620} Max Torque, Trans Output Shaft, was out of range when loaded.


These threads show how to fix OOR tables:


Fixing Out Of Range Cells:
showpost.php?p=87052 (http://forum.efilive.com/showpost.php?p=87052&postcount=14) post #14
showthread.php?14119-3000-RPM-max-and-setting-codes-03-Z06-with-Magnuson-at-150kPa (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14119-3000-RPM-max-and-setting-codes-03-Z06-with-Magnuson-at-150kPa) posts #14, #17
showthread.php?14654-I-need-help-getting-the-most-out-of-my-car (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14654-I-need-help-getting-the-most-out-of-my-car) post#2

[joecar]

Set B3609 to all zeros.

I don't see anything wrong with the tune file other than the OOR cells.

[Gjohnson]

You could go back to MAF-closed loop. That way you have a High-Octane and Low-Octane Spark etc..

Why not just stay in the closed-loop portion of the Tune until we figure this out. Look at B3616 and just keep the TPS under those thresholds.

I forget which MAF Calibration gave you the best trims. I.E. +/- zero (0) Trims. Maybe that is the one that was +18% over stock.

I agree even your NB's showed lean during WOT.

Drive conservatively for awhile (probably like you did before Tuning)..:grin:..

Will do.:angel_innocent: It's funny to think about, but when I initally did the swap I used the flywheel and clutch that came with my tranny to save money. Well, within the first week of install the clutch started slipping. If I got on the throttle anything over 3500 Rpm's I was burning the clutch. So I drove like a grandma for about 5 months. Then I borrowed my moms car for about 9 months while I completely tore the car appart to do body work and paint. When I reninstalled the motor, I got a new Z06 clutch. But I had to baby it for 500 miles for break in. Three weeks after I got past the 500 miles we started tuning with the roadrunner.


Fix these out of range values:



These threads show how to fix OOR tables:


Set B3609 to all zeros.

I don't see anything wrong with the tune file other than the OOR cells.

Ok, I'll start working on those issues. Are these things anything that actually affect the tune?

[joecar]

After you fixed the OOR, take another log and apply the Calc VET tutorial.

[joecar]

...

Ok, I'll start working on those issues. Are these things anything that actually affect the tune?They may or may not affect the tune...

in this case most likely not.

[mr.prick]

FYI the log in post #226 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15813-Noob-needs-help-with-Roadrunner&p=143256&viewfull=1#post143256) shows DTC P1336 (http://www.gearchatter.com/viewpost14379.php)
Swapping in the RR would not cause this.

{CALC.CYLAIR} is totally out of sync with {GM.DYNCYLAIR_DMA}. :doh2:

[WeathermanShawn]

{CALC.CYLAIR} is totally out of sync with {GM.DYNCYLAIR_DMA}. :doh2:

Hi mr. prick.

I think he has been carrying DTC-1336 in every log. Are you saying that is causing his problem or he just needs to fix it?

I'm not sure what you meant by the last statement. The two Airflows have been pretty divergent up to this point. But on that log, he failed the MAF and CYLAIR & DYNCYLAIR are the same. Thats normal when you fail the MAF.

What are you saying?