Injector Flow Rate Table

[WicketMike]

I just got EFILive and i have a few questions.

1. Should i put my Injector Flow rate table back to stock before doing the AutoVE tuning? I have stock injectors

2. Its a 1998, so do i put the MainVE in Map "A" and BackupVE in map "b"?


I did some practicing and when i left the IFR table like i had it and added 5% to the VE tables. i was running really rich. 10.9-11.2 and sometimes even richer, but when i put the IFR table back to stock it was still running rich but when i would get about 1/2 throttle it would get really lean, like 16-17. I was going to try and raise the VE another 10% but ran out of time.

any help is appreciated.
thanks!

[John]

Yes if injectors are stock put stock #'s back.

Yes the maps are set up like that.

John

[WicketMike]

how about my main VE table? it had been tuned from the 400-2800rpm range to help with my idle.

should i put that back to stock also and then raise it the 5% or 15%? to start autoVE tuning?

also my octane tables are changed? should i put those back to stock also?

thanks

[Blacky]

how about my main VE table? it had been tuned from the 400-2800rpm range to help with my idle.

should i put that back to stock also and then raise it the 5% or 15%? to start autoVE tuning?

also my octane tables are changed? should i put those back to stock also?

thanks

Changes to the IFR table and the VE table effect each other. If you are returning the IFR table back to stock then yes, you should return the VE back to stock as well. Probably best to increase the VE table by around 5-10% across the baord prior to AutoVE tuning.

Once your fueling is correct, then you can use the idle calibrations to dial in your idle.

Don't return the spark tables - unless there is a problem with excessive knock.

Regards
Paul

[WicketMike]

Changes to the IFR table and the VE table effect each other. If you are returning the IFR table back to stock then yes, you should return the VE back to stock as well. Probably best to increase the VE table by around 5-10% across the baord prior to AutoVE tuning.

Once your fueling is correct, then you can use the idle calibrations to dial in your idle.

Don't return the spark tables - unless there is a problem with excessive knock.

Regards
Paul

thanks Paul,

I changed the IFR and the VE tables back to stock and did a short drive to test it out. It is running 9.9-10.1 AFR in the lower rpms and at idle and that was without raising it 5%-10%.

Do you think i should lean out 2800rpm and below and raise the 3200+ by 10% before i start autoVE? Alot of white smoke was coming out with all that fuel dumping in there

thanks again!

[VetPet]

White Smoke? That isn't from running rich. The smoke should be black and your exhaust should really smell nasty. White smoke is more of an indicator of anti-freeze getting into the combustion chamber.

I'm a newbie to tuning myself and haven't attempted the AutoVE process but I'm assuming your car was running o.k. on your previous tune before trying AutoVE. I'd put that tune back in if it was o.k. first off before you damage the cats (if you have them) and find out the source of your coolant leak.

It would probably help if you would list your modifications as this has a direct bearing on the your tuning parameters. LOL.

:cheers:

[WicketMike]

ive never had white smoke before, until yesterday when i put the VE table back to stock and my LM-1 was reading 10.1 afr at idle.

i dont have cats and yes the overtemp is off.

my mods are 231/237 cam with stage II heads and bolt ons

thanks

[Blacky]

thanks Paul,

I changed the IFR and the VE tables back to stock and did a short drive to test it out. It is running 9.9-10.1 AFR in the lower rpms and at idle and that was without raising it 5%-10%.

Do you think i should lean out 2800rpm and below and raise the 3200+ by 10% before i start autoVE? Alot of white smoke was coming out with all that fuel dumping in there

thanks again!

Get it as close as you can estimate before AutoVE. The only reason I said to raise it was to prevent the opposite happening: running at 16, 17 to 1 AFR.
Paul

[Blacky]

Also, check {B3605}, {B3632} and {B3633} to make sure they are not the source of your over rich condition (at startup).

Paul

[joecar]

You may want to check your original IFR table using the IFR calculator spread sheet at http://www.allmod.net/hpt/injectors.xls
(http://www.allmod.net/hpt/injectors.xls)
Also, see http://redhardsupra.blogspot.com/

[WicketMike]

Also, check {B3605}, {B3632} and {B3633} to make sure they are not the source of your over rich condition (at startup).

Paul

b3605 i set like it said on the AutoVE, i should leave that as it says on the AutoVE,right?

b3632 and b3633 are still stock.

I just did a good long drive and took out the cells with 50 or less and then applied it to the tune file and then did another long drive and alot of the cells at lower rpms still are reading around .90 and alot of the cells above 2400 are reading lean, so im gonna richen those up and keep tuning

[VetPet]

Based on the size of your cam you have a lot of overlap at lower rpm's that makes the VE of your engine actually a lot worse below 2000-2500 rpm. With a stock VE table, your AFR between idle and 2500rpm would be a lot richer as the VE values are based on your stock set up. The opposite would be true above 2500 rpm so you would see a lean AFR. Bump your VE values below 2500 down by 10 to 15% and above 2500 up by 10 to 15% and see what your AFR readings are. The reason for upping the VE table by 10 to 15% is to try and make sure you don't run too lean. If your AFR's look pretty good then you need to start collecting data for your BEN factor Map in order to adjust your VE table. From this point on it will be a matter of cycling through the process a few times until your BEN factor is close to 1. The VE values in the 400 to 1200rpm range should probably be a bit higher to help with your idle as large cams need more fuel at idle speeds due to the dilution of the intake charge from overlap during the exhaust cycle.

Keep us informed of your progress and all the best.

:cheers:

[WicketMike]

What i did was reduced the 400-2400 by 20% before i started and 2800+ raised by 15%

I let it idle for about 5mins or so and started to record after it warmed up. I got atleast 50 counts in the 800rpm/60-75map and 1200rpm/55-70map cells.

They all read around .77 (even after taking out 20% before starting), so i copied with labels then pasted with labels and multiplied.

Then i drove it around after lowering it and now all those cells i just fixed are now reading .88, so now i have to lower it again.

is this normal to fix it and then have to fix it again by this much?

Im going to do the .88etc and then on the way home from work ill see how it changes.

[redhardsupra]

stop 'reducing' things and start scanning, doing VE adjustments is trivial. one thing you might wanna take into consideration is to bring the car up to FULL temperature before you make these adjustments. what happened to me for a long time, i'd get most of the idle area VE values from the initial driving (still relatively cold) and after a while (15-20 mins or regular driving) when i'd go into the idle range, all the values would come back 10-15% lean. i couldn't figure out technically what happens, so i changed my methodology: i would only take data into consideration AFTER about 15mins of driving, when everything, not just ECT was up to normal operating temps/pressures. another issue might be that in an automatic, you'll be on different spark table in P/N and Drive, which will alter your fuel trims in the idle cells.

[WicketMike]

stop 'reducing' things and start scanning, doing VE adjustments is trivial. one thing you might wanna take into consideration is to bring the car up to FULL temperature before you make these adjustments. what happened to me for a long time, i'd get most of the idle area VE values from the initial driving (still relatively cold) and after a while (15-20 mins or regular driving) when i'd go into the idle range, all the values would come back 10-15% lean. i couldn't figure out technically what happens, so i changed my methodology: i would only take data into consideration AFTER about 15mins of driving, when everything, not just ECT was up to normal operating temps/pressures. another issue might be that in an automatic, you'll be on different spark table in P/N and Drive, which will alter your fuel trims in the idle cells.

I am scanning. I let the car warm up first for about 5 mins. then i start recording while driving. then i copy and paste.
The spark tables, are you referring to the hi/low? i copied the hi into the low to do the AutoVE. I also try not recording until 15 mins of driving.

thanks

Mike

[redhardsupra]

no, i mean the 'idle spark in drive' vs 'idle spark in p/n' tables (under the spark control menu in HPT, i'm not too familiar with EFI, but the idea should be the same)

[WicketMike]

Maybe there is something im missing.

i added 15% on the 2800+rpm and its running 9.5-10.5, super rich.

Which might be normal, but when i scan and the avg's are showing .75 in a certain cell and then i multiply that cell, it now leans that cell out below stock and now its to lean.

what could i be doing wrong?

here is my excel file, maybe somebody can look at it and see if there something that doesnt look right.

thanks
Mike

[WicketMike]

Something i noticed yesterday.

When i make changes to the backupVE thats when it gets way to rich or way to lean. But if i only change the mainVE its ok.

example, When i lowered the 400-1200 by 20% on both tables it ran to lean 17-18. but if i only lowered the MainVe it was ok.

It is a 1998, Is there times its in both tables? or does it look at both tables all the time?

thanks

[WicketMike]

i think i found the real problem.

when i first upload the new file, it runs super lean 18-19afr. so i turn it off right away because i dont want problems being to lean.

I think the reason is because its not in SD mode because it hasnt done the 1st fail. So when i upload a 2nd file its ok because its now failed a 2nd time and now in SD.

Does this sound right? also, will it harm anything running that lean until it gets the 2nd fail?

thanks

[dfe1]

Running lean shouldn't cause any problems PROVIDED you don't put much load on the engine, you don't run it lean for very long, and you don't run lean enough to cause detonation. The only real problem with running a lean mixture is that it elevates combustion temperatures. Compared to the temperatures created when running wide open throttle at maximum load, those caused by a lean mixture at light load aren't all that bad. Obviously, the longer abnormally high temperatures exist, the greater the risk of engine damage, but a few minutes of idling at 17:1-18:1 shouldn't hurt anything.

[WicketMike]

Running lean shouldn't cause any problems PROVIDED you don't put much load on the engine, you don't run it lean for very long, and you don't run lean enough to cause detonation. The only real problem with running a lean mixture is that it elevates combustion temperatures. Compared to the temperatures created when running wide open throttle at maximum load, those caused by a lean mixture at light load aren't all that bad. Obviously, the longer abnormally high temperatures exist, the greater the risk of engine damage, but a few minutes of idling at 17:1-18:1 shouldn't hurt anything.

ok thanks,

do you know or does anybody else know if the reason it runs really lean the first time after a retune is because of it not being in SD mode because it hasnt had the 2nd error yet?

[dfe1]

I'm not sure about the whole sequence of events, but keep in mind that speed density operation is a back-up/failure mode, not a normal operating condition. I don't believe the custom operating systems address the error handling aspect of speed density operation, they simply enable use of both high and low octane spark maps. That being the case, I would expect that the lean condition after conversion is a result of the PCM trying to work out and adjust for the problem with the MAF sensor. Once it finds that no one is home, it sets the code, goes into back-up mode and determines everything is then temporatily right with the world (pending repair of the MAF, which of course never happens because the system is in the hands of a crazed horsepower freak.

[deezel]

Have you read the AutoVE tutorial? This includes inctructions to disable MAF and set the fail freq and count to 1, which immediately sends PCM into SD mode. No need to wait for 2 failures...

[WicketMike]

Have you read the AutoVE tutorial? This includes inctructions to disable MAF and set the fail freq and count to 1, which immediately sends PCM into SD mode. No need to wait for 2 failures...

then thats not the reason its really lean at idle. My guess is because its not warm yet, ive been watching it and the warmer the car gets the richer it gets. Kinda sucks that you have to sit there for 5-10 mins for it to warm up before you can drive