PCM lifespan?

[Rich Z]

This is probably going to sound like a really dumb question, but if you all knew the background, you would likely understand why my brain has been rendered mostly non functional.

I have a C5 Z06 Corvette that had a custom 427 installed. The guy tuning it right now (He's had the car since September. Prior to that the car was in another shop for 11 months.) Been one problem after another.

The latest problem was a 1514 code, which they were working on Tursday. When I called later in the day to see how things were going, the guy told me that it appeared that the PCM had died. Getting all kinds of odd results, and wouldn't take a new flash correctly, apparently. He said that perhaps the PCM had reached it's useable lifespan for the number of flashes it would take. So a new PCM is on order and will be there on Friday.

That sounds bogus to me, but what the heck do I know? So I'm asking here, is that even remotely possible? If so, how many flashes would it take to reach that point?

Let it be noted that they were pulling the PCM out of the car to program it on a bench. So is it possible the PCM just got zapped somehow?

[ScarabEpic22]

I believe the PCM flash usually has a life expectancy of either 10,000 or 100,000 flashes. They do fail, Ive seen a few on here where people report weird issues and then they swap the PCM and its just fine.

They could have mistakenly fried the PCM by using too high of a voltage on a bench harness or the harness was improperly ground. Unlikely, but possible.

Sounds like you're trying to keep a level head, 18mo without your ride must be frustrating beyond belief.

Why has it taken so long to tune, just issue after issue or what?

[joecar]

The flash chip used in the typical 0411 is rated to still function for 100,000 to 1,000,000 flash cycles... it may or may not fail after the rated number of cycles.

At 100,000 cycles, a PCM flashed 10 times per day would still be good for 27 years.

Having said that, it is also true that things fail (either by co-incidence or by mis-adventure); most flash devices will go past the rated cycle count, but as you know from the study of statistics, some devices would fall to either end of the bell curve (the low end representing premature failure).

If the tuner reads out the tune and compares it to what was flashed in, that would show if the flash wasn't taking.

What will the tuner say when he installs the new PCM and the same problem persists...?

[joecar]

If it's taking too long to sort out, then you might minimize your losses and shop for another tuner...

this has two benefits:
1. you get your car tuned properly and in a timely manner;
2. the tuner gets you out of his shop so he can deal with his backlog;

this is a benefit to both parties.

[joecar]

Also, if the tuner continued working on your car, and then eventually returned it to you, you have to ask yourself "will the tuner be able to support me in case I need further adjustments, and how long would that take".

[Rich Z]

I believe the PCM flash usually has a life expectancy of either 10,000 or 100,000 flashes. They do fail, Ive seen a few on here where people report weird issues and then they swap the PCM and its just fine.

They could have mistakenly fried the PCM by using too high of a voltage on a bench harness or the harness was improperly ground. Unlikely, but possible.

Sounds like you're trying to keep a level head, 18mo without your ride must be frustrating beyond belief.

Why has it taken so long to tune, just issue after issue or what?

Yeah, been one thing after another. Didn't help matters that the guy who did the original install (not the one where the car is now) not only didn't really know what he was doing, but he also ripped me off in a number of parts I paid for that he was supposed to have installed, but did not. Been a genuine nightmare that feels like it will never be over with.

I did not hear back from the guys doing the tuning, so I have no idea what is going on at this point. Talked to the main guy this morning and he said they are having problems tracking down the source of that 1514 error.

Been a bitch suffering this 18 month headache...

[Rich Z]

If it's taking too long to sort out, then you might minimize your losses and shop for another tuner...

this has two benefits:
1. you get your car tuned properly and in a timely manner;
2. the tuner gets you out of his shop so he can deal with his backlog;

this is a benefit to both parties.

Well, I'm in Tallahassee in north Florida, and to be perfectly honest, tuning expertise on the Corvettes seems to be very tough to come by. Matter of fact, the guy doing the actual tuning comes up from Orlando to work on it.

Options seem to be limited....

[ScarabEpic22]

Tuning a Vette isnt really that different than any other LSx powered car, certain tuners who have more experience with say a Vette, TBSS, GTO, etc know what to look for more than "normal" LSx tuners.

Do you have a stock MAF sensor? Is it descreened? Check out this thread I found: P1514 code (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?10332-P1514-Reduced-Engine-Power). Have your tuner check it out, look at Engine Diagnostics-> ETC ->ETC Predicted Airflow. Table {C6101}, have them double all the values in there (or make them 200% of original). Then have them adjust {C6102} as well if it needs it.

Most of the P1514 errors are resolved (AFAIK) from adjusting these tables because the tune is setup for a stock 5.7, but now you're running a 7.0L 427 so those predicted airflow values are way low.

[L31Sleeper]

Why the heck would it be pulled out for each flash ??

[minytrker]

Why the heck would it be pulled out for each flash ??

That would be throwing up red flags to me in the first place.

[minytrker]

Well, I'm in Tallahassee in north Florida, and to be perfectly honest, tuning expertise on the Corvettes seems to be very tough to come by. Matter of fact, the guy doing the actual tuning comes up from Orlando to work on it.

Options seem to be limited....

IMO I would look for a new tuner. Unless there is mechanical problems no car should take more than a day or two to tune.

[L31Sleeper]

IMO I would look for a new tuner. Unless there is mechanical problems no car should take more than a day or two to tune.

I agree and I reserve that statement for times that it is really necessary, I would hate for
someone to tell my customer that on a whim. Maybe Lorenz could set you up with a AutoCal.

[Rich Z]

Well the guy is a retired GM engineer from what I understand. He is using a Tech II to do the tuning.

The latest issue is a 1514 error code that happens pretty much at startup. They replaced the larger (I think around 97mm) TB with a stock one and the error goes away, so they are saying that the ComTech throttle body I have is bad. The guy I got the tb from says they are flubbing the tune and not compensating for the higher air flow.

I've been looking around in EFILive and see the C6101 table that is used to compare to actual airflow and triggers the 1514 error code when the actual airflow exceeds the values in this table. Unfortunately I don't have the current tune the guys are working with to see what values they have in that table. So here's my question.... Can I just max out that 6101 table to get rid of that 1514 error? Is that the ONLY circumstance that will trigger that error code? If I have to, I'll run out to that shop and capture the tune that is in there so I have something to look at. But I'm a raw noob at this, and will get over my head REAL quick, I'm sure.

If you guys get bored sometime and want to read about the absolute nightmare I am going through with my car, take a look at this thread -> http://www.corvetteflorida.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44697. Make a BIG bowl of popcorn before you start reading, though.

So right now this 1514 error code is apparently gumming things up. If it is merely a matter of maxing out that table, then I would hope those guys would know about it. Seems to me I even mentioned it to them myself when I first researched this error code. The actual tuner (Jim Smith) seems to be competent, and I certainly can't say I know even a fraction of this tuning stuff. But I do need to get this figured out if I want to get my car back in my remaining lifetime. :(

[GMPX]

Why the heck would it be pulled out for each flash ??
Rich Z, do you know what software they are using for tuning? Days gone by that used to be necessary when using LS1Edit.

Edit, missed the last post where he said TechII was programming it. There is a number of tuners on here from Florida :sly:

[L31Sleeper]

Well the guy is a retired GM engineer from what I understand.
He is using a Tech II to do the tuning

How does this work ??

[ScarabEpic22]

I was curious about that as well, I thought Tech IIs could only flash GM approved (and provided) files?

[GMPX]

The TechII can act as a pass through device, I guess if he's using GM's tuning tools still then it just needs a pass through device to flash.

[Rich Z]

Beats me.... Based on the cost of the Tech II, I knew I was never going to own one, so I didn't pay any attention to the product name he mentioned. He just said it is much more comprehensive than what is available in other products.

I believe the reason he has Aaron Scott pull out the PCM is because Jim Smith is a big guy and getting up there in age, so jumping in and out of a Corvette is hard on him.

Anyway, can someone give me a hand getting this 1514 error code resolved? I'm willing to run up there and capture the tune file to take a look at it.

This is all taking place at South Georgia Corvette in Thomasville, GA, by the way... It's about an hour and a half drive for me, so it's not too bad.

[minytrker]

This don't help your problem BUT from what your posting I would find a new tuner!!!!!!! Buy an auto cal from myself or one of the many other people on here who can do remote tuning and be done. Without seeing a copy of the tune no one can really give you advice on what to change in the tune. When I used to own my shop (sold in 2009) I did ALOT of tuning for dealerships because I could adjust many things with EFI Live that you can't with a Tech II. Unless they have something new with the Tech II or something different than the dealerships tech II's I used (up till 2009) you can't really tune with one.

[L31Sleeper]

The TechII can act as a pass through device, I guess if he's using GM's tuning tools still then it just needs a pass through device to flash.

BOY would I like to get my hands on that !!


This don't help your problem BUT from what your posting I would find a new tuner!!!!!!! Buy an auto cal from myself or one of the many other people on here who can do remote tuning and be done. Without seeing a copy of the tune no one can really give you advice on what to change in the tune. When I used to own my shop (sold in 2009) I did ALOT of tuning for dealerships because I could adjust many things with EFI Live that you can't with a Tech II. Unless they have something new with the Tech II or something different than the dealerships tech II's I used (up till 2009) you can't really tune with one.

It's not new the Tech II can be used as a Pass-Through device like the FlashScan V1
But you need the right software on your PC. The dealerships don't have the tuning software
they are stuck getting cals from GM, Like an AutoCal customer.
If this guy was a GM engineer he probably kept a copy for himself.

-Justin

[GMPX]

If this guy was a GM engineer he probably kept a copy for himself.
That's what I was thinking too. But, who in their right mind would use a TechII, that thing is slow as molasses, on the E38 it's about 18 minutes to program it!!

[minytrker]

The software I have seen that GM uses was nothing like EFI Live it was all done using code, why would you spend hours in code and pulling the pcm all the time vs just using EFI Live? Also how are they data logging, with a tech II?

[Mr. P.]

I wonder if the tuner actually has the proprietary tools to program/customize the actual OS, in addition to modifying the calibration tables/params? Without hearing more, I cannot speculate as to why someone would choose to develop a calibration this way.

Mr. P.

[driver456]

I have been following this on the vette forum,Now that I'm thinking,Are you or the tuner sure its a 1514 code and not a 1516 or 1518 code? The only reason I ask is I was getting a 1518 code and it has to do with the TAC module and my car would go into reduced power mode once in awhile on start up,Long story short,My TAC module is fine, It had something to do with my TB and a table in the red folder in EFILive(ETC table's).I posted all over EFILive and got no answer's,No offense anybody :) But I figured it out myself and everything is fine now.Just a thought...........Paul

[joecar]

Paul, I saw your posts regarding B2713, I'm sorry I do not know the answer.

[L31Sleeper]

I also saw your post and did not have an answer, I have never modified those tables in
any of my tunes. I don't see how they would cause you a problem unless you changed
them to begin with ??

-Justin

[goldbergv95]

One thing I learned from experience, NEVER update your PCM's OS. Keep the OS orginal. Doing that will affect a lot electrical problems on your vehicle including a bad pcm from what you experience. Lesson learn...

[ScarabEpic22]

One thing I learned from experience, NEVER update your PCM's OS. Keep the OS orginal. Doing that will affect a lot electrical problems on your vehicle including a bad pcm from what you experience. Lesson learn...

Only for the P10s....LS1s are just fine updating OSs, pretty much everyone on here with a 99-02 LS1 PCM is running an 02 OS...