Problem with my Head/Cam 98 LS1 camaro - files attached

[blackflag]

I finally got efi live tonight and have been playing around with it.

My car idles around 1200 so I set the Idle to 950 under paramaters but it didnt change.

I also corrected my shift points and speedo. I had 3:73 and 255/50 and put on 275/60 and 4:10.

Seems to be shifting better now but the idle still hasn;t come down any and the short and long term seem very high.

Lastly my tccslip max was 1389?


Could someone take a look and point me in the right direction?

The log is backing out of driveway, then going up the road and making a WOT pass 1,2,and into D

[joecar]

Hi blackflag welcome to the forum.


What torque converter do you have...?


I can't look at your files right now, but here's some idle reading material that may help:


Idle Tuning
showthread.php?4661-Idle-Tuning-Helpful-Info-Inside (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?4661-Idle-Tuning-Helpful-Info-Inside)
showthread.php?14439-Idle-Tips-amp-Tricks (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14439-Idle-Tips-amp-Tricks)
showthread.php?14153-scan-tool-wont-log-rafig-or-rafpn (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14153-scan-tool-wont-log-rafig-or-rafpn)
showthread.php?14435-Need-help-Can-Start-Car-but-dies-when-I-give-it-any-throttle-before-going-to-CL (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14435-Need-help-Can-Start-Car-but-dies-when-I-give-it-any-throttle-before-going-to-CL&p=129519&viewfull=1#post129519)
showthread.php?7011-ETC-cars-and-IAC-parameters (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?7011-ETC-cars-and-IAC-parameters&p=61455&viewfull=1#post61455)
showthread.php?14544-Working-on-my-idle-tune (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14544-Working-on-my-idle-tune)
showthread.php?14794-Help-with-open-loop-%28cold-start%29-tuning (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14794-Help-with-open-loop-%28cold-start%29-tuning&p=133446#post133446)
showthread.php?149-Idle-%28Transition%29-Tuning (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?149-Idle-%28Transition%29-Tuning)

More Idle Tuning
showthread.php?t=149 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=149)
showthread.php?t=5866 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=5866&highlight=RAFIG)
showthread.php?p=86553 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?p=86553) post #17
showthread.php?t=2630 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=2630)
showthread.php?t=473 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=473)

Throttle Cracker/Follower
showthread.php?t=3568 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=3568)
showthread.php?t=4081 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=4081)
showthread.php?t=5406 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=5406)
showthread.php?t=5940 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=5940)

[blackflag]

Thanks for the links Joe! I'm trying to learn as much as possible since I have a few weeks off.

I have a TCI 3200 Stall in the car and a TCI Super Street Fighter 4l60e. Cam is a texas speed .581 224/224.

I have an innovate wideband in the car but the 02 is giving me sensor error type*=8 errors so I am gonna replace the 02 and connect it to the EFILive box.

I had problems hitting 2-3 limiter a couple weeks ago so I got the software so I can fix my shifting and spray it again

[blackflag]

After looking at the data in my scan tool, it says the car is idleing at 950 but the tach says 1050-1100.

So I should trust what EFILive RPM PID says vs the tach right?

Now I have to figure out how to tune my STFT and LTFT as they seem to be way off in my logs.

[WeathermanShawn]

Blackflag, it would be impossible to address every area of your concern, but a few comments.

First off, only select 24 Channels MAX. 47 Channels will slow your scan to a crawl and your data will lag. It appears you are running Closed-Loop with MAF enabled. A H/C car will require a lot more Airflow via the MAF/VE and resultant fueling. I.E., your MAF flow is stock..you need to calibrate it.

You should at least read the CALC.VET Tutorial: http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-A-New-Twist-on-CALC.-VE-Table..Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table.

Its not always possible to walk every user through all the complexities of Tuning, so I suggest you at least read the Tutorial and complete thread, and think it over.

Idle is a 8 hour job, maybe more if an auto. Though tailored more toward M6, you might want to look through the Idle Tutorial: http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14439-Idle-Tips-amp-Tricks

Best thing to do is spend some time doing some research and try a few things yourself.

Good luck..

[blackflag]

Thanks a lot for the reply man,

I'm reading as much as I can right now. Just trying to figure out where to start. I have corrected my shift points which was my main problem, not I'm trying to figure out where to go next. I have an Innovate wideband in the car, so I'm hooking it up very soon.

Thanks for the info. I will read the links you listed and keep playing with it. I know there is a lot more power left in my current tune.

Josh

[WeathermanShawn]

Josh, I would probably trust your EFILive Pid over the Tach.

That also matches your Tune Rpm..

I would start with your MAF Calibration first..You are probably going to need to add ~ +20% to all its values. That will get your Trims in line. But do some reading and logging first.:).

[blackflag]

Yeah I figured my factory tach is off my about 100-200 RPM or so based on what my RPM PID is saying.

I'm reading your pdf tutorial and starting to tune the MAF first. I'm going to try to do it without the wideband for now since my innovate O2 sensor is acting up a WOT. I'll order a new innovate 02 sensor and go back through you document again.

[joecar]

With the NBO2's you can do both MAF and VE in one log (the PT/CL sections)...

[blackflag]

So I can do the CALC.VET instructions and this will dial in my MAF and VE using the stock NBO2's right? Basically just follow the instructions in the link http://forum.efilive.com/showthread....tire-VE-Table provided by shawn.

I'm installing a new Innovate o2 sensor tomorrow and ordered a serial cable from http://taquickness.com/taqcables.htm to go from the innovate box to Efi Live. Hopefully that will help me get it dialed in eventually. Its just overwhelming getting started :)

[WeathermanShawn]

I always advise if it gets too overwhelming at first..Just do the MAF Calibration (with LTFTBENS) first..Its really simple. (Once you know how to make the MAP).

From there it is easy to figure out your VE Table..

[blackflag]

I always advise if it gets too overwhelming at first..Just do the MAF Calibration (with LTFTBENS) first..Its really simple. (Once you know how to make the MAP).

From there it is easy to figure out your VE Table..

Can I do this without my Wideband working? Do you have a link to a tutorial on MAF Calibration using LTFTBENS? I'm trying to find a good book on understanding GM EFI so I have a better understanding.

[blackflag]

So I can follow these directions to get my LTFTs corrected?
http://www.bowlingss.com/DownLoads/Tuning%20Doc/ls1tuninginfo.mht

(LTFT First Section)

[WeathermanShawn]

So I can follow these directions to get my LTFTs corrected?
http://www.bowlingss.com/DownLoads/Tuning%20Doc/ls1tuninginfo.mht

(LTFT First Section)

No, thats not my method. Mine is :http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-A-New-Twist-on-CALC.-VE-Table..Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table.

If you select those Pids, make the MAF SELBEN Table (B5001), then you log your LTFTBENS VS MAF Frequency. The Tutorial really helps..there is no other way to explain it..every step is there. Just give it a try..

[blackflag]

No, thats not my method. Mine is :http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-A-New-Twist-on-CALC.-VE-Table..Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table.

If you select those Pids, make the MAF SELBEN Table (B5001), then you log your LTFTBENS VS MAF Frequency. The Tutorial really helps..there is no other way to explain it..every step is there. Just give it a try..


And I can do this without having my wideband working right? If so, I will try this tonight. Thanks again for all the help

[joecar]

Only the portions of the AF and VE tables where CL was present (i.e. where LTFT's were trimming in closed loop).

[joecar]

The one log gives you two things:
- MAF correction multiplier (i.e. the existing MAF is corrected);
- VE absolute value (i.e. a new VE is calculated from the corrected MAF).

If you can do the MAF part of the tutorial, the VE part is right there next to it (but in a different map).


With NBO2 only (i.e no wideband) you can only do that for CL (non-PE).

With a wideband you can also do that for OL/WOT/PE.

[WeathermanShawn]

Mikey, near the end of the CALC.VET Tutorial, I included a method that shows you exactly what you need to do if you do not have a wideband.

So, yes you can do it without a wideband..I show an example of how you can do exactly what Joecar is saying..

From Tutorial..

II. CALC.VE Closed-Loop Tuning Only
NarrowBand Tuning (No Wideband)
For users who wish to Tune with only the Factory NarrowBands (NB) and have no Wideband available,
CALC.VE can be used for the Closed-Loop Trim portion of the Tune only.
1.Select the same PIDS, MAPS, and Data Filters, as indicated for CALC.VET. Perform Identical Logging
and Update Calibrations procedures as indicated for CALC.VET.
2. In Addition apply the following Data Filter to display Closed-Loop Tuning only.

[blackflag]

I;m going through the tutorial now. I added the pids.txt file and see them in the PIDS section of the scan tool. I have a 98 PCM and some of the PIDS are grayed out with an X. Then I click to select, it says PID is not valid, select anyway?

an example is GM.DYNCYL_DMA which is GM.DYNCYLAIR_DMA on my PCM. Should I select it anyway? Or do I need to go into the new PIDS file and make sure the PID names match.

[blackflag]

After right clicking and looking at "more info", I see the PID equation has dependencies. So I will go through the tutorial and select all od the PIDS as listed. If needed, I will try the Validate PID function.

[DrkPhx]

I;m going through the tutorial now. I added the pids.txt file and see them in the PIDS section of the scan tool. I have a 98 PCM and some of the PIDS are grayed out with an X. Then I click to select, it says PID is not valid, select anyway?

an example is GM.DYNCYL_DMA which is GM.DYNCYLAIR_DMA on my PCM. Should I select it anyway? Or do I need to go into the new PIDS file and make sure the PID names match.

You have to use the CALC DYNAIRTMP pid in place of the GM.DYNCYLAIR_DMA for the 98 PCM.

[blackflag]

After adding all of the PIDS in the tutorial, all of the are valid except GM.DYNAIRRTMP_DMA. My OS is 19980100

After looking at the new PID file, GM.DYNAIRRTMP_DMA seems to be a critical calculation so what do I do now?

[blackflag]

Got both maps created now and everything looks good with the exception of the GM.DYNAIRRTMP_DMA not being valid in my PID section. I also used the validate PID tool with no luck.

So I wont be able to log data and update my MAF and VE tables until the PID is valid correct?

[joecar]

For OS id's 19980100, 1998020, 19980400 the pid GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA is not defined... so you use CALC.DYNAIRTMP instead.

You also have to edit the VET calc pid, replace GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA with CALC.DYNAIRTMP.

Also, in the lookup() used for CALC.DYNAIRTMP, check that the values match your own B4901 table (they most likely do).

[ lookup() is explained in the scantool user manual pdf under "Calculated PIDs" ]

[blackflag]

For OS id's 19980100, 1998020, 19980400 the pid GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA is not defined... so you use CALC.DYNAIRTMP instead.

You also have to edit the VET calc pid, replace GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA with CALC.DYNAIRTMP.

Also, in the lookup() used for CALC.DYNAIRTMP, check that the values match your own B4901 table (they most likely do).

[ lookup() is explained in the scantool user manual pdf under "Calculated PIDs" ]

I was trying that night with no luck. I swapped in CALC.DYNAIRTMP in the Calc_pids file . I also see the lookup function

lookup()
Syntax: lookup(x,a1,a2,b1,b2,…,c1,c2)
Arguments: x: a numeric expression
a1,a2,b1,b2,…c1,c2 is a list of pairs of values.
Return value: The value of the second value of the pair whose first value is less than or equal to x.
The list of value pairs must be sorted on the first value of each pair.

B4901 is my charge temp blending table.

I'm getting a better understanding, but not sure how to code this to make it work.
Attached my calc_PIDS. Could someone help me figure this out?

[WeathermanShawn]

The 1998's are a little tricky. The calc-pids.txt and Pid Selection screen-shot has been moved to page 1 of the CALC.VET thread: http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-A-New-Twist-on-CALC.-VE-Table..Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table.&p=135867&viewfull=1#post135867

[WeathermanShawn]

Try the calc_pids.txt file above. Should now work..

[blackflag]

trying now :) thanks!!!

[blackflag]

SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEETTTTT!!!!

I added the calc_pids.txt then restarted my scan tool. CALC.DYNAIRTMP appreared and I have 23 PIDS selected as in the tutorial.

So now I just need to go drive the car for a while and record a log with the selected PIDS, then apply the filters (including CL only since my WB is not hooked up).

Then I should be able to enter this new data to calibrate my MAF and VE right?

Thanks again man for helping me get this far!!

[WeathermanShawn]

Josh, glad it worked. I'll try to work the specific instructions for the CALC.DYNAIRTMP back into the thread on Page 1. It comes up occasionally, and we need it for future reference.

Sorry for the confusion, but yes you can now log. If you notice in your Scan Tool you will also have External Wideband Lambda selected as a Pid. Since you do not have your wideband hooked up yet, what will happen is your Scan Tool will simply record a default value of ~1.6..But don't worry about it. We will filter it out with the attached Filter found in the CALC.VET Tutorial.

Try to do a log of at least 45 minutes - 1 hour if you can. Use steady throttle, try to hit Rpms from Idle to ~ 4000. Try to hit at least 40-50% throttle at times. You may need to use your lower gears 3000-4000 rpms to stay in closed-loop. I'm trying to keep you out of WOT until you get your wideband.

So yes, you can successfully calibrate your MAF, Trims, and VE Table for the closed-loop portion. Once you get your wideband, the Lambda Pid will automatically log..you don't have to change your Pids at all.

Thats it for now..

[blackflag]

Looks like its working. Went out and made a short log and about to start looking at it. Its raining pretty hard and I'm running skinnies/drag radials so I didnt get a lot of WOT pulls. I will go out and get better logs when its not raining

[blackflag]

One thing I found out is, if you have map A using Calculated VE BEN Corrected % then hit the average button all the cells goto 0.0

I changed the data paramater to kPa and the average button worked and calculated the numbers from higher values like 549 down to 1.2.

[blackflag]

I attached screenshots of my Map A.
It shows using data "Calculated VE BEN Corrected" in both kPa and %.

It shows VE BEN percentage averaging to all 0's but kPa averaging to a number.

Now I will start applying filters to see if I got much usable data.

[WeathermanShawn]

You actually have a really good log.

You forgot to do this step: A. Set Displacement: open a Log File, go Edit->Log File Information->Vehicle Options, and next to Engine enter the displacement in cc, click Ok, and save the log file. This matters only if you're planning to use [%] units for VE.

Here is your SELBEN and VE Table. Both are unfiltered (except for closed-loop).

The easiest way to to set your MAF Calibration at this point would be to add +23% to your Entire MAF Table B5001 (all frequencies). Then do another log. Your Trims and VE Table will probably be perfect. We are adding to your entire MAF table to ensure PE Mode/WOT is fueled to the same MAF/Injector Slope as closed-loop.

Once you get your wideband you can verify.

One more log and your done. See, wasn't that easy?

[WeathermanShawn]

One thing I noticed on your Tune.

Since you are hitting close to 6800 Rpms on stock injectors (?) and we are adding to the MAF..

Please take a look at your values in B3618 (PE). Those values are extremely rich, and I am concerned you will run out of injector at this pace.

Try lowering down to a 1.16 EQ .

[blackflag]

You actually have a really good log.

You forgot to do this step: A. Set Displacement: open a Log File, go Edit->Log File Information->Vehicle Options, and next to Engine enter the displacement in cc, click Ok, and save the log file. This matters only if you're planning to use [%] units for VE.

Here is your SELBEN and VE Table. Both are unfiltered (except for closed-loop).

The easiest way to to set your MAF Calibration at this point would be to add +23% to your Entire MAF Table B5001 (all frequencies). Then do another log. Your Trims and VE Table will probably be perfect. We are adding to your entire MAF table to ensure PE Mode/WOT is fueled to the same MAF/Injector Slope as closed-loop.

Once you get your wideband you can verify.

One more log and your done. See, wasn't that easy?



Good to know the data came out good. I was on country back roads and put it in 2 and D a lot to get higher RPM data, The rain made it fairly tricky since the radials are about worn out.

I had the CC set under Edit > Log File Information > Vehicle Information. I closed EFILive Scan and opened it back up to make sure it would load the new calc_pids.txt. I guess it didn't save it when I re-opened the scan tool.

I went back and set the engine CC and I now can average Map A using % as the data source.

It looks like my numbers are slightly different than the ones you had posted, but I haven't applied any filters yet.

How did you determine to add %23 to the entire MAF B5001 table?

Should I just make that %23 MAF adjustment instead of applying the tutorial filters and pasting to the MAF and Main VE tables from the data I got?

Here is what mine looked like after averaging Calculated VE BEN Corrected % (Map A)

[blackflag]

One thing I noticed on your Tune.

Since you are hitting close to 6800 Rpms on stock injectors (?) and we are adding to the MAF..

Please take a look at your values in B3618 (PE). Those values are extremely rich, and I am concerned you will run out of injector at this pace.

Try lowering down to a 1.16 EQ .

It usually doesnt hit 6800 when its dry. That was when it spun hard in the rain and hit the limiter once. The car does have stock injectors, stock MAF, cheap lid, stock TB, K&N Flat filter.

I got my new bosch wideband sensor this morning and ordered a serial cable for the LC1 to EFILive so I will integrate that when the cable gets here.

Looking at the B3618 (PE) table now.

[WeathermanShawn]

Also,(very important) remember to apply the CALC.VET Closed-Loop Filter. You need to filter out the PE Values (filter does it for you). Without a wideband all those numbers like 171% are bogus.

Also, in Map Properties you can set how many digits to display. Mine may look different because I have Precision set to 2.

I took your average SELBENS (or LTFTBENS) for your entire log..they averaged ~+21%. See the problem is if you only hit the closed-loop portion of your MAF Table..and you inadvertently hit PE Mode/WOT..all those MAF Frequencies will have not been altered..You could go extremely lean. So, I am estimating the 'upper-portion' of your MAF curve, based on the closed-loop portion of your MAF curve.

In mathematics they call that the 'slope'. It is crucial when you are tuning without a wideband..and I noticed you did not hesitate to take it to 100% TPS and 6800 Rpms.:).

When you get your wideband you can tweak every MAF frequency you desire..

[blackflag]

Ok- so the PE table is independant of the MAF and VE tuning. This table is what the PCM is going to command when in PE mode. So I'm guessing 90+% or basically WOT.

So I can set the AFR I want under WOT in this table? Since I drag race the car a lot seems like this is a very important table. I will rear more on it, but I'd like to lean it to around 12.8-12.9.

I also spray the car with 100 WET single nozzle and pull 4 degrees timing with an MSD timing twister box but that will soon be taken off and I will do a nitrous tune with EfiLive,

[WeathermanShawn]

No the PE table is not independent of the MAF/VE table. In reality it is an Fuel multiplier Table. Your Airflow is calculated primarily from the MAF Airflow with some correction applied from the VE Table Airflow. More Airflow, more fuel injected, etc..B3618 is a multiplier. Your reads as high as 1.29 EQ. That means MAF Airflow X 1.29..Thats extremely rich.

To hit 12.8- 12.9..thats an EQ of ~ 1.13. In your case (AFR) you are in the low 11's..too rich.

Also, it might be quite difficult to adjust your VE Table without knowing the upper-portions of it. In all honesty, I would omit that step until you totally get the MAF Calibration as close to a 1.00 SELBEN as possible. It takes some skill to merge known and unknown VE Table values without all the data..

Edit: B3616 tells you what TPS initiates PE Mode. Its far less than what you are thinking..

[ScarabEpic22]

Also, if you had a 99-02 PCM you could run COS5 and use the built-in N2O retard tables. Get the tune sorted first, then think about that. :D

[blackflag]

Added 23% to B5001 (MAF Sensor Calibration).

Also modified B3618 (PE Modifier based on RPM). It was really rich so I faded it into 12.61 to see how it does.

I'm going to go log some more data before getting into the VE table

[joecar]

...

I had the CC set under Edit > Log File Information > Vehicle Information. I closed EFILive Scan and opened it back up to make sure it would load the new calc_pids.txt. I guess it didn't save it when I re-opened the scan tool.

...Yes, you have to Save the log file before closing it.

[joecar]

B5001(MAF) and B0101(VE): PCM calculates cylinder airmasss from these.

B3605(OLFA) and B3618(PE): PCM looks up these to know what EQR to command;

B3601(STOICH): PCM uses this to know what is stoichiometric AFR;

PCM uses those 3 pieces of information (cylinder airmass, commanded EQR, stoichiometric AFR) to calculate fuelmass required to meet the commanded AFR...


STOICH converts airmass to fuelmass, and commanded EQR multiplies this to obtain commanded fuelmass
( or another way of looking at it:
commanded EQR multiplies airmass, and STOICH converts this to obtain commanded fuelmass
can you see how this is equivalent...?)


e.g.
- if you increase the cylinder airmass, you cause an increase in fuelmass (can you see why...?)
- if you increase the commanded EQR, you cause an increase in fuelmass.
- if you increase the stoichiometric AFR, you cause a decrease in fuelmass.


So, the idea is to get MAF and VE correct, and set STOICH to the fuel being used... now what ever you set OLFA and PE to is the EQR that the PCM will deliver (as confirmed by wideband).

Edit: you have to start with injector tables that correctly model your injectors.


Some points:
- view all the fuel tables in EQR units; this makes you independent of the stoich AFR for different fuels (E00, E10, E85, and all in between).
- view the VE table in g*K/kPa, because this is what it is; this makes you independent of cylinder volume.
- log GM.EQIVRATIO instead of GM.AFR; this gives you 2 things: independence from fuel stoich, and the correct commanded fueling (see below).
- use the wideband lambda to calculate the BEN correction: e.g. for V2, BEN = GM.EQIVRATIO * EXT.WO2LAM1.

Some of us have observed GM.AFR and GM.EQIVRATIO being slightly different... we're not sure why/how, but GM.AFR seems to be smoothed over.

[rpmauto]

don't forget that on the 98's you will need to do your back up VE table as you get the main ve. (copy)

Forgot about the cos for n2o. I will have to look into that now that I have done the pcm swap.

[DrkPhx]

don't forget that on the 98's you will need to do your back up VE table as you get the main ve. (copy)

Forgot about the cos for n2o. I will have to look into that now that I have done the pcm swap.

Len - The backup VE table in the 98 PCM is worthless for a highly modified car because it's so "coarse" compared to the Main VE. Last year the MAF on my TA failed completely while driving which sent the car to the backup VE. Even though the values in the backup matched the main VE, the car would barely start let alone idle.

[rpmauto]

Gino,
interesting, I know the values were rough on the backup ve, I never even gave that a thought. Would work good enough on a stock engine to limp home, but not on a modified engine.

[WeathermanShawn]

Len & DrkPhx..

Are you guys saying that even if you fail the MAF on the 98 PCM, it is not using the VE Table we are calculating?

Us 1221256 OS's users need a little educating on this..:)

[blackflag]

Hey Guys,

Just got back from making a decent log run using the same CALC.VET PIDs used in the first log file. Only changes made were made in post #46. Added %23 to the MAF table and leaned out the PE table.

Before I started logging I went into DVT > Fuel Trim Reset > Fuel Reset.

How to the logs look? Car seemed to run strong and more responsive but roads were still a little wet. But I did get some good WOT pulls in.

I think max fuel trims were still %25 but I havent looked at them close yet.

[DrkPhx]

Len & DrkPhx..

Are you guys saying that even if you fail the MAF on the 98 PCM, it is not using the VE Table we are calculating?

Us 1221256 OS's users need a little educating on this..:)

The 98 PCM has a secondary backup VE table that is used when the MAF fails. The MAP columns are in increments of 10, not 5 like the main VE. Hence the coarseness.

[WeathermanShawn]

Josh, something seems amiss with your LTFT's. In some places adding +23% to your MAF did nothing..

Well try the following:

1. Make B0120 400 RPM instead of 4000.
2. Drop SAE.SPARKADV Pid.
3. Drop SAE.VSS Pid
3. Add GM.HO2S11 and GM.HOS21 Pids
4. Add GM.IBPW1 Pids.

You should still be at 24 channels or less.

Whenever you are adding that much Airflow to the MAF, normally you see a 1:1 increase in Trim change. +23% = a 23% drop in LTFT's. So, if you do not see that you always worry about 4 things.

1. NB O2 sensors are not switching properly.
2. You're injector flow is not supporting your Mods.
3. Big-time exhaust leak..usually this is the culprit.
4. MAF needs cleaning (are you de-screened..is this a stock MAF?)

Re-set your Trims again..if you really had done this you should have started out at (0) on your Trims. Looks like you were still at +25% when your log started..:confused:.

Sorry for the hassle, but these changes are necessary..

[WeathermanShawn]

Josh, also reset your trims using the following:

With key on (ignition)..

Calibration >> Long term Fuel Cells>> Reset both banks. The Table should now read all zeros. So, when you start logging the LTFT's should not already have a value.

I'm thinking yours did not re-set..you seemed to get richer during the log as your LTFT's learned..

[blackflag]

I made the change to B0120 and set it from 4000 to 400.

Droped SAE.SPARKADV Pid and SAE.VSS Pid

Already had GM.HO2S11 so I added GM.HOS21 and GM.IBPW1 Pids. I now have 19 PIDS Selected.

OK DESCRIPTION CAPTION UNITS SYSTEM CH PARAMETER
Y Absolute Throttle Position TP % Throttle 1 SAE.TP
Y Air Flow Rate From Mass Air Flow Sensor MAF Grams/s,Lbs/Min Air 2 SAE.MAF
Y Air Mass Per Cylinder CYLAIR Grams/cyl Air 0 CALC.CYLAIR
Y Commanded Air Fuel Ratio AFR :1 Fuel 2 GM.AFR
Y Engine Coolant Temperature ECT °C,°F Temperature 1 SAE.ECT
Y Engine RPM RPM RPM Conditions 2 SAE.RPM
Y Fuel System FUELSYS Fuel 2 SAE.FUELSYS
Y Heated O2 Sensor Voltage Bank 1 - Sensor 1 HO2S11 mV O2 1 GM.HO2S11
Y Heated O2 Sensor Voltage Bank 1 - Sensor 2 HO2S12 mV O2 1 GM.HO2S12
Y Heated O2 Sensor Voltage Bank 2 - Sensor 1 HO2S21 mV O2 1 GM.HO2S21
Y Injector Base Pulse Width Bank 1 IBPW1 ms Fuel 2 GM.IBPW1
Y Injector Base Pulse Width Bank 2 IBPW2 ms Fuel 2 GM.IBPW2
Y Injector Duty Cycle Bank 1 INJDC1 % Fuel 0 CALC.INJDC1
Y Injector Duty Cycle Bank 2 INJDC2 % Fuel 0 CALC.INJDC2
Y Intake Air Temperature IAT °C,°F Temperature 1 SAE.IAT
Y Intake Manifold Absolute Pressure MAP kPa,PSI Air 1 SAE.MAP
Y Long Term Fuel Trim - Bank 1 LONGFT1 % Fuel 1 SAE.LONGFT1
Y Long Term Fuel Trim - Bank 2 LONGFT2 % Fuel 1 SAE.LONGFT2
Y Retard Due to Knock KR Degrees Spark 1 GM.KR

MAF is stock but descreened.
Also have stock injectors.]
Also make sure the fuel trims are cleared using both methods before I get logs tomorrow with the new PIDS.

I will clean the MAF in the morning and check everything for exhaust leaks. Also will put in my new bosch 02 sensor for my innovate wideband and get some logs from it to compare. Once the LC1 > Scanv2 serial comes In I can integrate that.

[WeathermanShawn]

To evaluate your CALC.VET Tune & Log, we need to see EXACTLY the Pids as indicated in the following screen-shot.

Total 23 channels. No substitutions please..

http://forum.efilive.com/Total%2023%20channels..No%20Substitutions%20please .http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l609/weathermanshawn/CALCVETPids-2.png

[blackflag]

I have 23 PIDS selected. My tuning laptop is small so I could not fit them all in one screen. So I attached them in two images.

Its nice out today, so I'm going to go clear the fuel trims and get another log. Everytime I reset the fuel trims it doesnt want to idle until it gets a little heat in the motor.

[blackflag]

I went back and double checked, and I still had the first set of PIDS selected. So I removed VSS, Cyl1 Timing as mentioned earlier.

Also selected
Heated 02 Sensor Voltage Bank 1- Sensor 1
Heated 02 Sensor Voltage Bank 1- Sensor 2
Injector Base Pulse Width Bank 1

However, the three of those have red X's on them. I'm going out to the car to see if I can validate them???

[joecar]

See at bottom of PIDs tab it says Selected Channels... you can go up to 24 (don't exceed 24, otherwise the frame rate slows down).

[blackflag]

Just attached Flashscan to the car and it validated all the PIDS we needed. I now have 24 selected.

Also uploaded new tune with B0120 400 RPM instead of 4000.

Going to clear the fuel trims and get some more logs.

[blackflag]

Reset fuel trims and they al are at 0%. Going to let the car warm up and go log now.

[blackflag]

Just got back making a new log w/ the updated PIDS and made sure fuel trims were reset.

How does this look now?

[WeathermanShawn]

Overall, pretty good..

First of all you have to apply the Closed-Loop filter. That gets rid of the bogus data in PE Mode/WOT.

So your SELBENS look pretty good. They start to get a little positive above 6000 Hz, but that can be addressed. Your VE Table looks 'sane'. Your Airflow Models from MAF & VE are very close (which is good).

Your starting to get pretty close on the Injectors. You hit ~6200 Rpms..with an INJPW1 of 18.235. Thats about 90% capacity.

Your O2's look good. Switching normally, plenty of amplitude. During WOT they read >800 mv, which is good.

My only concern is that we have already added +23% to your MAF. By the time we apply your SELBENS, some areas will be close to 30%. I don't know if this is due to your de-screened MAF or air filter setup..:confused:.

But the bottom line is that last log got you really close. I would now follow the MAF Tutorial and apply the SELBENS in Table B5001 and paste your new VE Table into B0101.

When you get your wideband you can blend the remainder of your MAF Table and VE Table into the upper HZ and RPMs respectively.

Good job.

Edit: You can also change B0120 back to 4000 Rpms.

[blackflag]

Overall, pretty good..

First of all you have to apply the Closed-Loop filter. That gets rid of the bogus data in PE Mode/WOT.

So your SELBENS look pretty good. They start to get a little positive above 6000 Hz, but that can be addressed. Your VE Table looks 'sane'. Your Airflow Models from MAF & VE are very close (which is good).

Your starting to get pretty close on the Injectors. You hit ~6200 Rpms..with an INJPW1 of 18.235. Thats about 90% capacity.

Your O2's look good. Switching normally, plenty of amplitude. During WOT they read >800 mv, which is good.

My only concern is that we have already added +23% to your MAF. By the time we apply your SELBENS, some areas will be close to 30%. I don't know if this is due to your de-screened MAF or air filter setup..:confused:.

But the bottom line is that last log got you really close. I would now follow the MAF Tutorial and apply the SELBENS in Table B5001 and paste your new VE Table into B0101.

When you get your wideband you can blend the remainder of your MAF Table and VE Table into the upper HZ and RPMs respectively.

Good job.

Edit: You can also change B0120 back to 4000 Rpms.



Thanks a lot for all your help Shawn. EFILive was a little overwhelming to begin, but I'm getting more comfortable with it now based on the forum guidance.

My filter is a little older, so I will go get a new one today and make one more log before I apply values to MAF/ VE. I actually had a small nitrous backfie through the intake a month or so ago so maybe the heat/flame affected the air filter element in a small way.

2 questions:

#1- When you guy gas should always try to buy the same (10/90) so stoich should be correct? I'm running 10% ethanol 93 octane now. But we do have one station in town that has 100% 93, I just havent gotten any from them lately.

#2- I will apply the CL filter on map A (VET%). However, following the tutorial my column labels are ,15,20,25,30,35,40,45,50,55,60,65,70,75,80,85,90,9 5,100,105.

B0101 Columns in my VE Table are " 2.2 2.9 3.6 4.4 5.1 ... etc"

Do I have to make my Map A column labels match my B0101 Column labels? Or will the cut and paste just know what cell to enter data in?

Images attached:

[WeathermanShawn]

You want your MAP units and Tune Tool units to match..

Looks like your MAP is metric, but your Tune Tool is is Imperial units. You can change your Tune Tool units under Configure Display Units (metric). There may be an easier way to explain it..but I just keep everything metric..in my MAPS and Tune Tool.

If you fill up with E10, B3601 should read 14.124. This is where things can get really tricky. In a previous post Joecar pointed out how important it was to keep fueling units in EQ. When you change B3601 to 14.124 it is imperative that B3618 be in EQ or lamda units..not AFR. Otherwise your PE fueling can be too lean.

You should change your Tune Tool units to EQ. Under Edit >> Properties, EQ.

If you need a full explanation on that Joecar's Summary Notes really help..

[blackflag]

Went and bought a new paper air filter and filled up with the same gas. I'll go out and make another log run and then hopefully use that one to update my MAF and VE tables. After I get the units to match up correctly in the scan and tune tools.

Will post the new log shortly and see how it compares to the older K&N air filter.

[blackflag]

I went out and got about an hours worth of logging trying to stay 40-50% TPS and idle to 4000 Rpm.

I have also applied the Closed Loop filter to tha attached log file. This is with a new FRAM Paper Filter and same 93 Octane E10 gas I have been using.

If this log looks good, I will continue to follow the tutorial and update MAF and VE tables. That is, once I can figure out how to get the VE column numbers to match up. I tried changing the Tune Tool to Metric but I still see 2.2, 2.9, 3.6, 4.4, etc

I will keep playing around with it until my scan map A (VET %) columns match up with my B0101 (VE Table) Columns.

Then I can move onto idle and wideband tuning when I get that hooked after the lc2 to efilive serial cable comes in.

** I also cleared my fuel trims again before recording this log

[blackflag]

I was able to change the B0101 VE Table to Metric through EDIT > Configure Display units. It now matches the VET.CALC (Map A) in my scan tool.

So if the last logged data with the new air filter looks good, I'll go ahead and update the tables as directed in the tutorial.


Image of metric column VE Table Attached

[WeathermanShawn]

Again, overall not bad. You still have a few lingering +SELBENS, but if you keep applying them against your B5001, they should go to near 1.00.

I think you are ready to blend. Until your wideband installation is complete you will just have to manually blend your upper RPMs/MAP of your VE Table.

Your MAF signal looks good, your NB's are good. Just work on those 1.06 SELBENS that are showing in your log.

[blackflag]

I got the values from Map A (VET %) and pasted them into my Main VE Table (B0101) with no problems. This was solved by converting units to Metric.

Problem I'm having now, is getting the SELBEN (Map B) data to match up with the B5001 (MAF Sensor Calibration Table.) The SELBEN values average around .96-1.06 while the B5001 table has a lot higher numbers and seem to progress all the way to 60's @ 11000 Maffreq Hz.

Tried changing units to metric in the tune for MAF Calibration but can't seem to get the values in B5001 looking like my SELBEN numbers.

Ideas? Images of tune ans scan maps attached.

[Taz]

Those numbers (0.96 to 1.06) are a BEN factor - you multiply your MAF frequency values by the corresponding BEN factor.

That's a nice tight range by the way.


Regards,
Taz

[blackflag]

Figured it out. Went back to the tutorial and saw that for the B5001 SELBEN (MAP B) Values that the Paste into B5001 is
PASTE > PASTE AND MULTIPLY WITH LABELS

So we are actully using the SELBEN calculations as a correction multplier of B5001.

Image of table with Map B SELBEN multpliers applied.

* So if SELBEN is a multplier it shouldn;t matter if B5001 is in Lbs/hour or lbs/right?

[Taz]

You got it. BEN is a multiple (or percentage) applied to a value. Doesn't matter what units you are using.


Regards,
Taz

[blackflag]

So its just adding the SELBEN % to the value to the B5001 Maf table. Cool.

What should I expect in my SELBEN once I apply this tune and log close loop again?

[Taz]

No. You multiply your MAF parameters (in whatever units displayed) by the BEN factor. Any cells with a BEN of "1" will be unchanged. Cells with a BEN of less than 1 (eg. 0.96) will be reduced. Cells with a BEN greater than 1 (eg. 1.06) will be increased.


Regards,
Taz

[blackflag]

Here is what the tune looks like now with both maps applied to VE and MAF Tables.

I'm going to upload this tune in the morning and make some more logging runs to see what they look like.

Thanks again guys for all your time and help getting me this far.

[WeathermanShawn]

Taz, thanks for your help.

Josh, overall you have done a pretty good job. Its always good when a problem occurs that the user go back to the Tutorial and figures it out. And you followed all the instructions quite well.

A few things to note on your MAF and VE Tables. First, anytime you have to add over 18%-30% to the MAF Table, you have to ask why. For instance my vehicle is H/C, and I have only had to add an average of 12-13%. Rather than debate screened MAF's vs unscreened, you might want to think that over. When you add that much to the MAF, you will run out of injector once you hit 11,000 Hz. You might seriously think about upgrading your injectors and going to a screened MAF (IMO).

Also, you will need to do some blending of your MAF and VE at some point. The MAF table needs to be relatively smooth, and your <8000 Hz had been hit hard, but >8000 Hz it needs more data and to be smoothed. Same with your VE Table. It should not be spiky or have bigs dips and holes.

Since you have been pro-active and are getting your wideband (serial) hooked up, you can wait. Bottom line, you will need to do some more fine-tuning at some point, but so far you have done quite well!

Later.

[blackflag]

Thanks Shawn. The tutorial was great! but like all computer docs, it needed to be followed down to every detail. A good example was first overlooking to paste SELBENS as a multplier.

Now I just need to buy a couple books on GM EFI/ EFI Live so I better understand each table and what it does.

Here is a list of mods to my car.
Worked/blended 98 LS1 heads
.581 224/224 TSP CAM
Ls6 intake
Long Tube Headers
No cats

Full madman suspension with a 9" and 4:10 gears
3200-3400 TCI Stall

It was running 1.70' 7.59 and 11.98 with that old tune on motor
On a 100 shot its been 1.49 7.11 and 11.11

I'm not going to spray it again until I get the wideband working and the tune figured out at WOT and other sections like the MAF and VE table.

I figured it was close to the limit of stock injectors, so I may look at upgrading them with some GTP ones or something similiar when I put in a new fuel pump and hot wire kit.

I'd also like to log Fuel Pressure off the rail to EfiLive for when I'm spraying it to keep an eye on fuel drop etc.

Great weather today so I'm going to upload that tune and do for a drive to see what the new log looks like.

Here is a video of a 1/4 nitrous pass on the old tune and a 100 shot wet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYezrpdJqRo

[blackflag]

I just got back from logging with the new tune. Drivability seemed to be a lot better than before.

I have attached the new log with CL filtered out.

So should I keep performing the same process of logging and pasting data into the tuning table? I have my wideband 02 sensor in and I thought about wiring the LC1 up to the EFILive v2 box using the two wires ( 0.5v and ground) until my taquickness serial cable gets here. That way I could start tuning WOT since I race the car a lot.

[WeathermanShawn]

Nice video by the way. Thats pretty fast. Good 60' time!

Tune-wise, I can see your change to 14.124 on B3601 got your Trims in even better shape. Here are a few more 'tricks' you can do to fine-tune:

1. Disable DFCO: Change B3313 to 140C. For some reason your LTFTBENS are +22% positive during DFCO. Disabling DFCO should correct that.
2. B4105: O2 switch points..change these to all read 450mv. That may help a bit too.

If you want to hook your wideband up as Analog, thats up to you. You have to configure offsets and add a calculated pid to your calc_pids.txt file. With serial you don't have to do a thing. Its just plug & play.

For PE Mode/WOT Tuning, I might advise adding +5% to your MAF Table B5001 from 7250 -12,000 Hz. This will give you a margin of safety and blend your MAF Table a little better. Your goal is to eliminate all Bens >1.00. So everything below 6000 Hz and below looks perfect.

Hope that all makes sense..:)

[joecar]

We might have to write a few more intro type tutorials:
- matching up units between scantool and tunetool,
- creating a maps (with units shown on axes),
- creating map filters (filter out OL; filter out non-steady conditons)
- pasting maps into calibration tables (paste vs paste-multiply).

[joecar]

...

Now I just need to buy a couple books on GM EFI/ EFI Live so I better understand each table and what it does.

...Also, look at post #4 here for a short summary: Summary-Notes&p=127351#post127351 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14188-Summary-Notes&p=127351#post127351)

[WeathermanShawn]

We might have to write a few more intro type tutorials:
- matching up units between scantool and tunetool,
- creating a maps (with units shown on axes),
- creating map filters (filter out OL; filter out non-steady conditons)
- pasting maps into calibration tables (paste vs paste-multiply).

Yes any help you can give there would be greatly appreciated. I never foresaw how many twist and turns the CALC.VET approach could take. You have Analog wideband, Calculated DYNAIRTMP, requests for AFR in lieu of EQ..you have to be very meticulous in every detail to do successfully follow a Tutorial.

But the popularity and total uniqueness of the approach of this type of tuning is drawing the interest. As far as I know there is no other method that allows for simultaneous tuning of closed and open-loop in one log.

Perhaps we could start a separate page of just CALC.VET summary notes. Page 1 of the main CALC.VET thread gives you the starting point, then you could link to instructions for the issues you presented.

Think it over..

[joecar]

...

As far as I know there is no other method that allows for simultaneous tuning of closed and open-loop in one log.

...Nor of doing both VE and MAF in one log.

[blackflag]

I just put in my new LC1 O2 sensor and got it calibrated and working. In the mean time, I am going to hook it up analog? until the taquickness serial cable comes in.

So the yellow wire from my LC1 will goto Pin C on my efilive box, and the signal ground will goto pin D.

In the Calc VE Tutorial the PID is EXT.W02AFR1.

The efi live install tutorial for LC1 says "add PIDs {EXT.AD1} and {EXT.AD2}.
By logging both {EXT.AD1} and {EXT.AD2}, you can verify correct voltage readings from the LC-1 are being recorded in EFILive. The unconnected {EXT.ADx} may show a voltage, but it will not change as much as the {EXT.ADx} that the LC-1 is connected. After verifying which {EXT.ADx} is used, delete the unused {EXT.ADx} from PID selection."

So I'm guessing for analog I would select EXT.AD1 or EXT.AD2 and use EXT.W02AFR1 when my serial cable comes in?

I'm going to go wire it up now and just log those PIDS to see which one gets analog data for the LC1 when its wired into the box. Guessing its EXT.ADX

Would I need to change anything in my CALC VET PIDS for analog vs serial input for the LC1 wideband?

[blackflag]

Nice video by the way. Thats pretty fast. Good 60' time!

Tune-wise, I can see your change to 14.124 on B3601 got your Trims in even better shape. Here are a few more 'tricks' you can do to fine-tune:

1. Disable DFCO: Change B3313 to 140C. For some reason your LTFTBENS are +22% positive during DFCO. Disabling DFCO should correct that.
2. B4105: O2 switch points..change these to all read 450mv. That may help a bit too.

If you want to hook your wideband up as Analog, thats up to you. You have to configure offsets and add a calculated pid to your calc_pids.txt file. With serial you don't have to do a thing. Its just plug & play.

For PE Mode/WOT Tuning, I might advise adding +5% to your MAF Table B5001 from 7250 -12,000 Hz. This will give you a margin of safety and blend your MAF Table a little better. Your goal is to eliminate all Bens >1.00. So everything below 6000 Hz and below looks perfect.

Hope that all makes sense..:)



Thanks Man, its getting close. hooking up the analog LC1 wideband now and will update my tune with the "tricks" above before I make some wideband logs/testing.

"2. B4105: O2 switch points..change these to all read 450mv. That may help a bit too." <-- is 450mv the same if using 100% gas or E10 (Since I have 4.124 in B3601)

[blackflag]

NEVERMIND on the analog connection to EfiLive box. My serial cable just came in the mail.

So I'm going to go hook it up and see if it starts logging using my existing CALC VET setup.. :)

[joecar]

...
So I'm guessing for analog I would select EXT.AD1 or EXT.AD2 and use EXT.W02AFR1 when my serial cable comes in?
Yes... you use EXT.WO2LAM1.



Would I need to change anything in my CALC VET PIDS for analog vs serial input for the LC1 wideband?Change CALC.WO2BEN to use the lambda from your LC-1...

i.e. WO2BEN will be "{GM.EQIVRATIO} * {CALC.AFR_LC11} / 14.7" as described in the Calc VET tutorial thread.

[WeathermanShawn]

" <-- is 450mv the same if using 100% gas or E10 (Since I have 4.124 in B3601)

450 mv =stoich..which will 'automatically' adjust to the composition of your fuel. B3601 is 14.124. Changing the O2 switch-points just makes for a slightly more smooth BEN pattern.

I.E., Its a small detail..nothing to worry about..

[blackflag]

Got the serial LC1 to EFILive device working. Its showing up on the handheld screen as AFR (Which I'm used to). But I notice that the PID I'm logging is EXT.W02LAM1 (Lambada units). I guess this will be fine for my CALC VET tutorial tuning.

Now I should be able to go out tonight and make a good long log with the wideband logging. Then I can take that data and dial in my MAF and VE tables in open/closed loop.

WOT is my main tuning concern now as the car has great drivability. And once I get the motor tune dialed in I can go back to spraying it at the track.

I'm going to make those suggested tune changes, then go out and get some more data after dinner.

[WeathermanShawn]

You should be good to go.

CALC.VET will automatically compute a SELBEN based on whether you are in closed or open-loop. You won't need the 'closed-loop' filter anymore..

[blackflag]

In my Calc.pids file can I change

*CLC-00-110
factor 0.5 1.5 .4 "{GM.EQIVRATIO}*{EXT.WO2LAM1}"

TO

*CLC-00-110
factor 0.5 1.5 .4 "{GM.EQIVRATIO}*{EXT.WO2AFR1}"

I'd just much more familiar with AFR than lambada and I would like to make a Map C showing AFR across RPM and this seemed to be the easiest way since I'm already logging 24 PIDS from CALC VNET.

I'm guessing the factor numbers should be changed also to use AFR.

OR, I can just leave it alone and make another set of PIDS and a map to show AFR/RPM.

[Taz]

To change the equation from Lambda to AFR requires a change in the range of values (the 0.5 and 1.5 are the current Lambda range). If memory serves the AFR equation would be the WBO AFR PID divided by the GM AFR PID - to produce a BEN factor.

Easiest to work the equations in Lambda or Equivalence ratio (which I prefer) and log AFR to assist with conceptualization.


Regards,
Taz

[WeathermanShawn]

Keep the Pid Lambda.

I think the calc_pids.txt file I gave you also has calculated Pids for AFR (viewing only).

That way you can let the equation work properly and at the same time view AFR. I.E., your wideband will show and log the AFR you are familiar with, but the computer/PCM needs the Lambda Pid to be accurate.

[blackflag]

To change the equation from Lambda to AFR requires a change in the range of values (the 0.5 and 1.5 are the current Lambda range). If memory serves the AFR equation would be the WBO AFR PID divided by the GM AFR PID - to produce a BEN factor.

Easiest to work the equations in Lambda or Equivalence ratio (which I prefer) and log AFR to assist with conceptualization.


Regards,
Taz

Makes sense Taz. I just have AFR stuck in my head and need to learn Lambada and EQ. I'm going to leave it on Lambada and go make an hour or so log to get some good data.

Based on Shawns advice I disabled DFCO, changed the freqs in another table to 450, and added 5% to those values in my MAF table.

So hopefully when I get back tonight I should have some real good data to do all the CALC VNET open/closed loop changes.

[joecar]

In my Calc.pids file can I change

*CLC-00-110
factor 0.5 1.5 .4 "{GM.EQIVRATIO}*{EXT.WO2LAM1}"

TO

*CLC-00-110
factor 0.5 1.5 .4 "{GM.EQIVRATIO}*{EXT.WO2AFR1}"

I'd just much more familiar with AFR than lambada and I would like to make a Map C showing AFR across RPM and this seemed to be the easiest way since I'm already logging 24 PIDS from CALC VNET.

I'm guessing the factor numbers should be changed also to use AFR.

OR, I can just leave it alone and make another set of PIDS and a map to show AFR/RPM.blackflag,

No, do not change it to that, that will give the wrong value.

Also, do not use WO2AFR1 since the LC-1 bases it on stoich being 14.7, but your fuel is E10 which has stoich 14.12...

i.e. WO2AFR1 will not be the correct AFR.

i.e. move away from thinking in AFR, and start thinking in EQR and Lambda (Lambda is simply 1/EQR).


If you set the V2 option to log all serial/digital pids, you should see WO2AFR1, WO2LAM1, WO2EQR1
(you don't need to make any new pids, they are all there, as long as the serial/digital option is set)
they are related as follows (LC-1 assumes 14.7 stoich): WO2LAM1 = 1/WO2EQR1 = WO2AFR1/14.7

If you really must view AFR make yourself a card with some EQR->AFR conversions on it.

[blackflag]

I think I got a pretty good log file tonight using the Innovate LC1 with the serial plug into the flashscan v2 box. When I set it up for the first time in the scanmaster I followed the directions on "serial widebands tutorial". I did not that my version did not provide a COM IN or COM OUT options to change. It also defaulted to Innovate and displayed in AFR.

So I set the scanmaster to display the wideband output and had a passenger that watched my CALC VNET table. We took about an hour and a half with multiple WOT runs. Also had to hold RPMs in lower gears abd watch MAP to fill certain cells.

The only problem we had was the car was going real lean if you just let out to 0% tPS after a 1-3 WOT pass. This in turn, would freak out the LC1 and send it into "error 8" or sensor timing error. This happened 2-3 times during the log. THe passenger paused the scan log then I had to pull over and cut the car off then back to the ON position. The LC1 would warm up and work fine again. (Warming cycle also displays on the scanmaster.) Made more WOT passes but slowly let off throttle in D

So I have attached my PIDS, LOG (unfiltered), and TUNE. I'm going to spend some time to look at the values and try to understand them a little better.

If the Data looks good I will apply filters in the CALC VNET tutorial and apply the results to a new tune.

Then hopefully I should be able to be real close on tune-up and dial the rest in at the track this weekend.

[blackflag]

blackflag,

No, do not change it to that, that will give the wrong value.

Also, do not use WO2AFR1 since the LC-1 bases it on stoich being 14.7, but your fuel is E10 which has stoich 14.12...

i.e. WO2AFR1 will not be the correct AFR.

i.e. move away from thinking in AFR, and start thinking in EQR and Lambda (Lambda is simply 1/EQR).


If you set the V2 option to log all serial/digital pids, you should see WO2AFR1, WO2LAM1, WO2EQR1
(you don't need to make any new pids, they are all there, as long as the serial/digital option is set)
they are related as follows (LC-1 assumes 14.7 stoich): WO2LAM1 = 1/WO2EQR1 = WO2AFR1/14.7

If you really must view AFR make yourself a card with some EQR->AFR conversions on it.

I'm going to make up some conversion charts to help me out and learn the other units. I had a motorcycle dyno 10 years ago and AFR is just stuck in my head since I have a good idea on how engine like AFR.

I agree with you completely leaving the CALC VNET PIDS to use w02 Lambada and just think of it as an equation to tune with. I can always go back and have a whole different set of PIDS to calculate other maps with AFR/RPM, shift points/rpm, and other drag related maps.

Thanks again for the advice/lessons/guiding my research. Let me know if I can contribute to the CALC VET tutorial in any way. ( Lol, I had a lot of mistakes along the by skipping small steps in the tutorial.) I have a lot of screen shots and could help with the dummy sections :)

[blackflag]

Made a quick Lambda conversion chart in excel for E85, E10, and 100% gas

I think the calculation is right? Lambda X stoich value

[WeathermanShawn]

Very nice log! I'm impressed by how much progress you made in just a week.

Disabling DFCO really assisted in 'cleaning' up some SELBEN areas. Your Trims and PE Mode/WOT look really good. Your lucky that on your first WOT Tuning you basically nailed a perfect EQ/AFR.

You did hit close to 95% on your injector flow at 6400 Rpms. Close, but O.K.

I'm not sure why you went momentarily lean on 0% TPS for a frame or two. You can always re-enable DFCO if you want.

One thing you might want to do ASAP. Apply one of the CALC.VET filters and upload your new VE Table. That VE Table is now very accurate. If you need any tips on blending it, eliminating spikes, etc., post it up and we can help.

As far as the Innovate E8 error, ironically I have been getting that more frequently myself. Some have said you might need a heat sink in the bung, but I wonder if their newer Firmware is just more sensitive to voltage changes.

But your log is proof that serial connection is the way to go.

Again, really good job. As far as I can see, you are now successfully CALC.VET tuned.

[blackflag]

Thanks a lot Shawn for all the guidance. I couldnt have done it without you stepping me through it! After I created the Lambada chart it really helped me when analyzing the tune. I agree, that WOT looked pretty good on the last log. I'm going to play with it a little more since it was a "touch" rich in some areas but thats just me being picky.

Not sure either what it would go so lean for a split second after a WOT run, but only if you went right to 0% TPS. I can try to tune that out or just ease back off the throttle when I make a pass at the track.

I have applied some of the basic filters to the log as attached below. After lunch, I plan on applying both the VE and MAF tables to a new tune and do another log tonight when there isn't any traffic out. it REALLY helped to have a passenger watch the logs so I could hit as many cells as possible.

Attached if my filtered log that plan on applying this afternoon.

[blackflag]

Forgot to attach the log and screenshot of the filter. If acceptable as atated earlier, I'll paste the data into the VE and MAF table. Then I just have to play with the shift points and idle a little and it should be good to put back on the nitrous !!! woooo

I have an MSD timing twister so I'm gonna pull 4* on a 100 WET shot and log all that. So now I have a motor tune, I will work on a nitrous tune as well once I have logs. May even end up taking the MSD box off and retarding timing through EFI Live High/Low Timing Tables.

[blackflag]

Here is my new tune file with the VE and MAF table data applied from the last CALC VNET log (filtered).

I am going to a local 1/4 mile track tonight to test out the new tune and get logs.

Also need to figure out why its shifting a little early based on my commanded shift points. Almost like its shifting with the tach (which is 300rpm higher) than the RPM PID.

So once this tune is uploaded, could I adjust B3618 to fine tune my WOT lambda/AFR?

[blackflag]

I removed the LEAN/RICH etc table from the last version. After looking at it today it wasn't accurate and confusing.

I'm trying to figure out how to calculate EQ Ratio and add it to help me tune tables like B3618, and will add that as another table in this chart.

[Taz]

Took a quick look at your tune. I like to "zero out' the Low Pressure Adjust (D1101, D1102, D1103) to prevent the PCM from reducing trans pressure during an upshift. This also helps with tuning a consistent shift "feel". Your D1103 (3>4) already has only zero values. D1101 (1>2) and D1102 (2>3) do not.


Regards,
Taz

[blackflag]

Took a quick look at your tune. I like to "zero out' the Low Pressure Adjust (D1101, D1102, D1103) to prevent the PCM from reducing trans pressure during an upshift. This also helps with tuning a consistent shift "feel". Your D1103 (3>4) already has only zero values. D1101 (1>2) and D1102 (2>3) do not.


Regards,
Taz

So you do this on a built 4l60e? It shifts super hard 1 > 2, and 2>3 feels a little soft to me. Especially when making a pass at the track. ( TCI Super Street FIghter 4l60)

So If I apply those values to the 2 >3 maybe it will shift more solid to to speak? I can apply to 1 >2 as well but it already shifts really hard now ( 1 > 2).

I always race or make WOT runs in D, and hardly ever make WOT runs when it whould shift 3 >4. But obviously I daily drive in OD so I see how that would come into play.

Now I think of it, I dont think I can shift my tranny into OD when WOT. first 1/4 mile pass I made with 4:10s' I tried to bump in OD around 1200' but it wouldnt do it.

[Taz]

Zeroing out those parameters prevents the PCM from reducing the shift pressure that you selected. The idea is shift feel consistency, not necessarily "super hard" shifts. As an example, when operating your car on the street sometimes it may shift just the you wanted (or programmed), other times it may seem a little "off".

So whether its a daily driver, tow vehicle, or competition vehicle I will "zero out" the PCM ability to reduce shift pressure - and then tune shift "feel".

I leave the high pressure adjust (PCM added pressure) active.

Hopefully that makes sense ...


Regards,
Taz

[blackflag]

Zeroing out those parameters prevents the PCM from reducing the shift pressure that you selected. The idea is shift feel consistency, not necessarily "super hard" shifts. As an example, when operating your car on the street sometimes it may shift just the you wanted (or programmed), other times it may seem a little "off".

So whether its a daily driver, tow vehicle, or competition vehicle I will "zero out" the PCM ability to reduce shift pressure - and then tune shift "feel".

I leave the high pressure adjust (PCM added pressure) active.

Hopefully that makes sense ...


Regards,
Taz

Makes total sense now man. I dont want the trans to drop pressure on shifts.

What about D0704. 1 >2 Temp pressure adjust table. When the transmission has more heat in it, do you think this one also modifies the shift pressure too?

Other than this, my focus is to make sure the car is shifting at the right RPM, and not getting up on the limiter in 2 >3. On motor it seems to be doing well right now, just shifting a little lower than the shift RPM I have set.
My car blows through the convertor more so I really need to make sure my 2 >3 is right. (Since I had a problem with this 2 >3 shift once on nitrous, which lead me to buy EFILive.)

Video here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUDHKXt8ylY

[Taz]

I leave the Temperature Press Adjust active. At "normal" operating temperatures the PCM will not make any changes to trans pressure (OEM value is zero). When the transmission gets hot / overheating - the PCM will add pressure in an attempt to keep the trans alive. Winters here are cold - so I also leave the low temperature OEM function active (which reduces trans pressure below 46 F - to prevent parts breakage / excessive wear during the first few minutes the vehicle is driven in cold weather.


Regards,
Taz

[WeathermanShawn]

BlackFlag:

You can adjust B3618 to the EQ you want. I would not go leaner than 1.12 EQ.

You can tweak B5001 as much as you want. I normally try to get it about -1 -2% BENS. You do not want any +BENS or your WOT fueling will be adversely affected.

Normally I smooth the VE Table manually or use strict filtering. When we blend a logged VE Table into an old one, there are spikes and holes that are unacceptable. So it is the one time I use the smoothing tool(s). Then it becomes easier to put new data into it.

1. Take 800 RPM Data (usually good)..copy to 400 Rpm. Deduct -10%.
2. Hit the 'Smooth selected cells without decreasing min/max range'.
3. Hit 'Smooth selected cells' once.

Your stock VE table was so far off..preferably you should manually blend it, but it takes some skill to do it and explain it..

The following attachment has been smoothed. Its a lot better to start there than your previous stock one.

[blackflag]

So in my VE table,

1. Take 800 RPM Data (usually good)..copy to 400 Rpm. Deduct -10%. (Copy the entire row of 800RPM and Copy to 400RPM row then deduct -10% from the 400 RPM rpw)
2. Hit the 'Smooth selected cells without decreasing min/max range'. (Hit smooth selected cells while still highlighting the 400 RPM row?)
3. Hit 'Smooth selected cells' once. ( On the 400 row, or the entire selected VE table?)

Finally, It was OK to paste the SELBENS to my MAF table from the good serial wideband right? (This has been done in tune 006)

I may play around a little with B316 at the track tonight based on logs, after the VE table is smoothed and new tune has been uploaded.

[WeathermanShawn]

So in my VE table,

1. Take 800 RPM Data (usually good)..copy to 400 Rpm. Deduct -10%. (Copy the entire row of 800RPM and Copy to 400RPM row then deduct -10% from the 400 RPM rpw)

Yes, exactly..

2. Hit the 'Smooth selected cells without decreasing min/max range'. (Hit smooth selected cells while still highlighting the 400 RPM row?)

The Entire VE Table

3. Hit 'Smooth selected cells' once. ( On the 400 row, or the entire selected VE table?)

The Entire VE Table

Finally, It was OK to paste the SELBENS to my MAF table from the good serial wideband right? (This has been done in tune 006)

Yes.

I may play around a little with B316 at the track tonight based on logs, after the VE table is smoothed and new tune has been uploaded.

The Blending is hard to explain. If I can ever get my mind around how to do it or explain it better I will. My goal is to someday just take the corrected MAF flow and have a VE Table mathematically draw itself. But for now if you smooth it in the fashion I stated it should be a lot closer to reality. Try it..It should look similar to that screenshot if you do it right.

[joecar]

...

I'm trying to figure out how to calculate EQ Ratio and add it to help me tune tables like B3618, and will add that as another table in this chart.

EQR = 1 / Lambda

[blackflag]

Thanks Joe.

I added it in this version of the Conversion Chart..

I think all the math is right :grin:

[blackflag]

The Blending is hard to explain. If I can ever get my mind around how to do it or explain it better I will. My goal is to someday just take the corrected MAF flow and have a VE Table mathematically draw itself. But for now if you smooth it in the fashion I stated it should be a lot closer to reality. Try it..It should look similar to that screenshot if you do it right.

I followed the directions and the tables look about the same. Image attached.

Saved in 007 .tun file. About to go upload and get ready to go to the track for some testing!! wooo thanks guys

[blackflag]

Well guys, I got to try out the motor tune last night that we made this week and the can ran good. 1.7 60' 7.8 and 12.3 @ 110. This is very close to what it was running on the orig tune.

I created new PIDS to log data for drag racing.

Here is the tune and log file for the first motor pass of the night.

[blackflag]

So I went back to the pits and studied the Lambda logged from the pass above. Decided it was a little rich so I added a little fuel in the PE by RPM Table.

I was planning on making a motor only pass to log data. But I got paired up with a lsx trans-am from a local forum and I really wanted to beat him. I already had my bottle warmed up to temp (1050) and my progressive controller to come on at 3000 and go off at 5750.

SO what I did was leave on the bottle in 1st and reached down and cut it off in second about 500' out then ran the rest of the pass on motor.

Ran ran great and I beat him by about 5-6 cars. ( I went 12.01 and he went 12.50)

Tune and Log attached.

[blackflag]

So 3rd pass off the night, I again got paired up with a huge cam'd TA and this time I figured I'd spray 100 the whole way down the track.

Bottle pressure was 1050, progressive controller set again 3000k to 5750 @ WOT. Single NX nozzle jetted for 100 shot. Ran this same spray setup 10-20 times with no problems on the origional tune. but I has always mixed in 5 gallons of 110 race gas.

This pass and the one before, I had my MSD timing twister pulling 4 degrees timing when the kit was activated.

I had tune 008 in the car.


Left off the line and the car went about 10 feet then started popping, backfiring, blowing flames, etc??? Now it sounds like a bent pushrod on #1 or other valve train damage.

I had videos for all three passes and will put them up sometime today.

But for now I have to pull the driver side valve cover and assess the damage from the ticking. Oil pressure is still good and I drove it home 45 miles.


I was also noticing in the other logs that the car was starting to detonate in 3rd gear for some reason.??

Maybe my MSD isn't pulling timing like it should?? I'm taking it off soon and will do all my timing retard mapping with EFILive so I can see whats going on.

Log attached of the nitrous pass gone wrong :)

[blackflag]

Weird thing is, I made 20-30 bottle passes on the orig .tun with no problems. But I mixed in 5gal race gas. And that was before the MSD timing twister.

After the timing twister, I have just sprayed on race gas and pulled 2 degrees for every 50hp nitrous. Even sprayed 150 5-6 times on orig tune with a little race gas. Car never popped or had any problems. MSD box must not be pulling timing and its going way lean or something? I also have a FPSS that is set to 40 lbs to be *safe* lol

[joecar]

blackflag,

ouch, I hope its something simple like bent pushrod or broken rocker and nothing more serious.

you might consider swapping to the 0411 PCM (requires repinning the PCM connectors, swapping the fuel segment, and a few other things) and running the 2002 Camaro/Firebid file OS 12212156... this lets you easily upgrade to COS5 which has nitrous/boost fuel/timing tables.

The calibrations that run on the 0411 PCM have only a single VE table which makes tuning easier; and they have additional tables over the 1997/1998 LS1 calibrations.

[joecar]

You're logging 26 pid channels which gives you only 5 updates/second instead of 10 updates/second.

Should log at fastest rate (10 updates/second for LS1), especially for racing/tuning.

Remove these pids: SHIFT23, SHIFT23ERR, SHIFTDELAY, LONGFTAV1, AFR.

Add these pids: SHIFTLAST, DYNCYLAIR.

That should bring channel count to 23.

Or if you don't need shift time, replace SHIFTLAST with DYNAIR, this brings channel count to 24.

[joecar]

First Pass: wideband EQR is good (sufficiently rich), but knock shows up with signature sawtooth pattern.

Second Pass: wideband EQR is lean, did PE not enable...? Knock shows up. Both of these makes it very bad.

Third Pass: wideband EQR suddenly drops lean by a large amount, seems to be before anything else happens, but I'm not sure (sample rate is only 5 updates/second).

[joecar]

Second pass shows commanded EQR 1.1309 which is almost the same as 1.129 in B3605... but wideband shows EQR 0.9520, something is wrong here.

[blackflag]

You're logging 26 pid channels which gives you only 5 updates/second instead of 10 updates/second.

Should log at fastest rate (10 updates/second for LS1), especially for racing/tuning.

Remove these pids: SHIFT23, SHIFT23ERR, SHIFTDELAY, LONGFTAV1, AFR.

Add these pids: SHIFTLAST, DYNCYLAIR.

That should bring channel count to 23.

Or if you don't need shift time, replace SHIFTLAST with DYNAIR, this brings channel count to 24.

Thanks for pointing that out joe, I was looking at the number of PIDS selected not the actual channel #.

I was trying to see if my transmission was having some type of slipping or shifting going into 2 >3. It did some some data that I need to look more closely at.

[blackflag]

Here is a video of the first pass (tune 007) on motor.

I think it was 1.7 7.8 12.4 @ 111

http://www.youtube.com/user/BlkFlagMotorsports#p/u/0/1AfC40j2cDc

Car felt good, but when I looked at the logs was a little rich. As mentioned above, I then made tune 008. The videos helped me figure out the logs a little better (IE: Burnout, staging on convertor, shifts, etc)

Remember the in the second pass, I actually left spraying the 100 wet shot and turned the kit off mud 2nd gear.

3rd pass I left on the kit and it went boom.. boom...boom. Almost like the nitrous solenoid was stuck open. THe car kept popping going down the track. When we opened the hood, the intake boot was blown loose and the solenoids were very hot.

I have a FPSS switch so If the fuel dropped, it should have cut bot solenoids off (FJO Nitrous COntroller)

I am making videos of the second and third passes now and will have them up tonight.

I still have to study the logs and lot more in detail to figure out what happened.

If you look at tun 008, I didnt take away much fuel and this explosion/backfire hapenned about 10' off the line.

MSD box may have not pulled timing, and the Innovate may be acting crazy as usual? Just real weird that I made a 300' nitrous pass just before on the sane tune, and the next time it blew just off the line.

When the nitrous is engaged, you should be able to easily notice that since I was logging SAE.MAP.

Also dont know what the car was knocking on the first motor pass when it went into 3rd? Again, maybe the car had too much timing in it and the first tune was just so rich it somewhat compensated??

Only differences in all the successful nitrous passes I had made before I added some race gas and it had the origional tune I posted in it. Never had 1 single problem, even on a 150 shot until I put on the MSD timing twister box(set to pull 4-6*) and didnt' use race fuel.

[Taz]

Regarding the transmission ...... never driven a 1998 Camaro with an auto trans .... do you have a switch for "Normal" and "Performance" mode - like a "Tow / Haul" switch in a truck ? Just looking at your shift pressures ...


Regards,
Taz

[blackflag]

Regarding the transmission ...... never driven a 1998 Camaro with an auto trans .... do you have a switch for "Normal" and "Performance" mode - like a "Tow / Haul" switch in a truck ? Just looking at your shift pressures ...


Regards,
Taz

My car doesnt have a switch, but its a built TCI 4l60e. I did notice tables in the tune for performance and normal also. The car had been feeling like it was a little slower shifting into 2 > 3. Also noticed that the trans wasnt shifting like the RPMs in the tune table. Almost like it was shifting a little early.

[WeathermanShawn]

BlackFlag:

Also I noticed your ECT and IAT were through the roof. Yes, I know when staging it gets really hot.

Have you modified your IAT Spark table or is it stock?

If you can nail down the exact moment it went Boom, it will be easy to know what Spark it was at..what spark is in your tune, and if your Timing 'Box" worked.

Its always possible with a good tune that your power is at its maximum.. your injectors were already near max. And we had to add a lot to your MAF. Maybe your vehicle just ran out of fuel.

Do you know the exact Frame # on your Log that everything went boom?

[Taz]

OK ... the 1>2 shift is the most difficult to tune - it is easily made too harsh. Lots of "room to move" on the shift pressures of the 2>3 and 3>4 shifts.

I generally use a TransGo HD2 shift kit and upgraded servos in all 4L60 transmissions - may (or may not) shift similarly to your "built" transmission.

Will try and repost your tune (hopefully tomorrow) with modified 2>3 and 3>4 shifts - intended as an example of options, not intended as a "will work for you" tune.


Regards,
Taz

[blackflag]

BlackFlag:

Also I noticed your ECT and IAT were through the roof. Yes, I know when staging it gets really hot.

Have you modified your IAT Spark table or is it stock?

If you can nail down the exact moment it went Boom, it will be easy to know what Spark it was at..what spark is in your tune, and if your Timing 'Box" worked.

Its always possible with a good tune that your power is at its maximum.. your injectors were already near max. And we had to add a lot to your MAF. Maybe your vehicle just ran out of fuel.

Do you know the exact Frame # on your Log that everything went boom?

We did have to wait in line about 30 min to make a pass, but it was cold enough out to turn the heater on so I did let me car idle in the staging lanes.

I have not modified the IAT spark table at all. I will attach the origional tune I pulled from car and it could be compared to tune008 that I had the car when it went boom. But also had tune008 in it the pass before when I sprayed off the line and into mid second with any problems.

I will look at log 3 (when it blew) and try to pick out the frame when it first popped. It actually popped all the way down the track even though I cut off the nitrous. I got up on the convertor just a little when staging then went WOT in the logs. (Can you see this a lot better in the video when I get it done).

Since the MSD is an inline box, we can't see if it pulled timing with EFILive can we?

[blackflag]

Very first tune I pulled out of the car when I got EFI Live.

tun0008 is the tune I had in the car when it went boom. Sprayed on the orig tune 100 and 150 20-25 times only added a little race gas and never had a prob.

[WeathermanShawn]

Well obviously the 1998 Camaro runs a lot of Spark at WOT. 28 degrees is a lot for a H/C car. I only run 22-25 total spark.

Also that Commanded EQ of 1.124 is a lot leaner than I ever run. I also keep PE at 1.16, especially if its E10 gas. You leaned it out on the last run didn't you?

As I recall your original Log had +25 LTFT, which meant in normal driving you were pretty lean, but in PE Mode/WOT that +25% would have been added to your fueling. And you're original PE EQ was very rich.

One thing I should make clear to you and any other readers, CALC.VET is tuning method to calibrate your MAF Trims, and VE Table. Racing places additional demands. Nitrous adds a level that really requires a specialized Tune and/or EFILive COS. Personally I would have dropped spark a lot more and added more fuel, but I am fairly conservative.

The only Tune issue might have been your MAF. I have never seen a tune where +30% had to be added to the MAF to maintain normal fueling. I have no knowledge of how nitrous affects MAF and or injector flow.

Your CALC.VET tune is good. When you get the chance to upgrade to COS5, that would be your best bet.

So, did we ever determine what the damage was, or do you have to do some more inspecting?

[blackflag]

Second pass on tune 0008

Sprayed off the line to about mid 2nd then turned kit off. Spun off the line but didn't pop or make any noises.

VIdeo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlNwYxbYoxc

Log attached

[blackflag]

OK ... the 1>2 shift is the most difficult to tune - it is easily made too harsh. Lots of "room to move" on the shift pressures of the 2>3 and 3>4 shifts.

I generally use a TransGo HD2 shift kit and upgraded servos in all 4L60 transmissions - may (or may not) shift similarly to your "built" transmission.

Will try and repost your tune (hopefully tomorrow) with modified 2>3 and 3>4 shifts - intended as an example of options, not intended as a "will work for you" tune.


Regards,
Taz

I really like how crisp and hard 1 >2 shifts. Seems like my car took longer and was much softer in 2 >3. I hardely ever stay in it long enough for a WOT 3 >4 shift.
I have a TCI Super Street Fighter 4l60e. Not sure what all they do to them, but the orig owner paid 4k for it.. lol. I would have went TH350 or 4l80e before spending that much

[WeathermanShawn]

Well at some point, somebody really modified your High-Octane Spark Table.

If you look at the Spark Values from .60 g/cyl -1.20 g/cyl+ they jump 30 degrees of Spark.

Thats not stock..:sly:.

See in your log, you jump from 21-28 Spark (-4 MSD Box) at a very low Rpm. Normally you want Spark to decrease with additional cylinder load. Thats where you went Boom..

Is that your Spark Map, because your original tune says stock..

[blackflag]

Second pass shows commanded EQR 1.1309 which is almost the same as 1.129 in B3605... but wideband shows EQR 0.9520, something is wrong here.

Only have about 100 miles on the new Bosch wideband sensor for the innovate. Calibrated it twice. It may have went into that (sensor 8 timing error mode). THat innovate LC1 has never been consistent for me.

[blackflag]

Well at some point, somebody really modified your High-Octane Spark Table.

If you look at the Spark Values from .60 g/cyl -1.20 g/cyl+ they jump 30 degrees of Spark.

Thats not stock..:sly:.

See in your log, you jump from 21-28 Spark (-4 MSD Box) at a very low Rpm. Normally you want Spark to decrease with additional cylinder load. Thats where you went Boom..

Is that your Spark Map, because your original tune says stock..

That was the tune that came in the car when I bought it. I didn't have any info on it other than when I downloaded it after first getting EFILive.
So you CAN see the MSD timing twister pulling time in the efilive logs?? thats good to know.

I though when I was looking over the log of the nitrous explosion the timing seemed REALLY high. So basically since the timing was so high from who ever tuned it before made it detonate even with the -4 pulled. Just weird that it didn't do that the pass before when I was on the kit. Maybe because I let out so early of the nitrous in second???

[blackflag]

Video of nitrous problem. Even after I turned the nitrous off you could still hear it popping down the track. In the log, at one point after I tirned the kit off I went 100% tps on motor hoping it would clear up and run him down. No such luck..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsXSWojH0Io

[WeathermanShawn]

I'm just trying to understand the Time line.

Sprayed on the orig tune 100 and 150 20-25 times only added a little race gas and never had a prob.

Are you saying you have had that Spark table in that long..or did you recently change it.

Your Spark went from 21-24 then KR, then Boom.

[WeathermanShawn]

See looking at that Spark Table, it was designed to never launch below 2200 RPM's.

Your launch and addition of nitrous was at 1652 Rpms (TPS 88%). Your CALC.Cylinder air was 1.30, which put your car at 28 degrees Commanded Spark. Stock is 18 degrees.

Now if you really ran that Spark table for 150 runs and never had trouble, perhaps you just got lucky. Thats a lot of cylinder pressure for that low of a RPM.

Maybe thats a nitrous Spark table, or someone got sloppy cutting and pasting values into it.

[blackflag]

I'm just trying to understand the Time line.

Sprayed on the orig tune 100 and 150 20-25 times only added a little race gas and never had a prob.

Are you saying you have had that Spark table in that long..or did you recently change it.

Your Spark went from 21-24 then KR, then Boom.

I haven't ever touched the spark table. I had made a bunch of nitrous problems on that same spark table with no problems. I didnt have the MSD box, so I added a couple gallons of 110 or 112 race gas. THis was with 100 and 150 jetting.

I bought the MSD timing twister and set it to retard 4*. So with the MSD pulling time and making so many nitrous passes with no problems. I ran it on just the MSD with timing pulled and pump gas. Car has a BAD nitrous explosion at the top of 2 going into 3. I though it hit the rev limiter, so thats what got me to buy efi live and change shift points.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUDHKXt8ylY

So the race gas was a crutch with all the timing the other guy had in the tune I guess? Obviously pulling *4 wasnt enough.

[WeathermanShawn]

Josh, I'm not sure. People do all sorts of things with Tunes with various rationals.

I'm just saying this would be like playing with dynamite. You can do it 100 times and get away with it, then one mistake and jumping to 28 degrees of Spark at 1600 Rpms is not standard tuning.

I just don't get why you would need to set-up a Spark table this way..:confused:.

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l609/weathermanshawn/High-OctaneSpark.png

[blackflag]

See looking at that Spark Table, it was designed to never launch below 2200 RPM's.

Your launch and addition of nitrous was at 1652 Rpms (TPS 88%). Your CALC.Cylinder air was 1.30, which put your car at 28 degrees Commanded Spark. Stock is 18 degrees.

Now if you really ran that Spark table for 150 runs and never had trouble, perhaps you just got lucky. Thats a lot of cylinder pressure for that low of a RPM.

Maybe thats a nitrous Spark table, or someone got sloppy cutting and pasting values into it.

Sorry- meant I had sprayed 150 WET on the car prob 15 or so times with the same spark tables and race gas. No MSD boc=x to pull timing. My FJO controller was set to only engage at 100% TPS so something is up..

Usually if I'm stalled up around 2200-2400 the convertor will flash to 3400 or so as soon as I go WOT.

So was I just up on the convertor a little harder on the second launch or something and the FJO engaged at less than 100% on the third pass?

[blackflag]

Josh, I'm not sure. People do all sorts of things with Tunes with various rationals.

I'm just saying this would be like playing with dynamite. You can do it 100 times and get away with it, then one mistake and jumping to 28 degrees of Spark at 1600 Rpms is not standard tuning.

I just don't get why you would need to set-up a Spark table this way..:confused:.

http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l609/weathermanshawn/High-OctaneSpark.png

I agree 100%. I am going to need to completely go back through the timing table since that seems to be the problem. I knew the timing advanced seemed really high in the logs. Also seemed real erratic.

Also got to start assessing damage to the engine. That also may explain the KR in 3rd on motor in the first log

[WeathermanShawn]

Yea and on this end I probably look at dozens of Tunes and logs every week with my main attention on the CALC.VET Tuning method. I remember you talking about a Nitrous tune, but somehow thought that was sometime in the future or with COS5.

This is just a hobby on my end. As a courtesy I try to always compare Tunes against stock and normally I would have caught that High-Octane Spark Table. Probably your Tune Title (which says stock) threw me off. I concentrated on your MAF, VE, and Trims.

Well you seem mechanically inclined, so I am sure you can figure out the damage.

So my analysis is that you had Spark-related detonation (too much Spark for cylinder load). More octane and less spark would be the solution.

Perhaps in the future you can write a Tutorial on Nitrous-Tuning..:).

[blackflag]

Yea and on this end I probably look at dozens of Tunes and logs every week with my main attention on the CALC.VET Tuning method. I remember you talking about a Nitrous tune, but somehow thought that was sometime in the future or with COS5.

This is just a hobby on my end. As a courtesy I try to always compare Tunes against stock and normally I would have caught that High-Octane Spark Table. Probably your Tune Title (which says stock) threw me off. I concentrated on your MAF, VE, and Trims.

Well you seem mechanically inclined, so I am sure you can figure out the damage.

So my analysis is that you had Spark-related detonation (too much Spark for cylinder load). More octane and less spark would be the solution.

Perhaps in the future you can write a Tutorial on Nitrous-Tuning..:).

This was my first week of tuning with EFIlive and I have learned SOOO much from you guys. I'm still a newb. But I did own a motor dyno shop for 2 years and have a good idea about correcting A/F to make power. Thats why I made the change from tune 007 to tune 008 at the track.

I did glance over the VE table and was 28 degrees timing, but I figured pulling 4* would be 24 and should be plenty safe on a 100 shot. If I'd pulled a plug I would have known the timing was way high. But I felt so comfortable with the AFR/Lambda that I didn't even think about it.

If your 100% sure that I can see the MSD timing twister pull timing in efilive and its working, I will continue to use it since its on the car already. If I have any doubt about that MSD box I will take it off and just create a EFILive nitrous tune with a completely different timing table thats already retarded based on the size shot. (May have 3 or 4 diff tunes if using that method).

I'd like to have a factory 1998 tune file so I can compare the spark tables. I know holden crazy has them, but the site didnt seem clear on which ones have been modified or not. ( <FIgured this out now so I'll get a stock 98 automatic tune and compare spark)

Good news is. I think we have the fueling real close ;) Wouldn't hurt to upgrade the injectors based on the duty cycle and upgrade the fuel system (Pump,hotwire,PSI Sensor to log)

At least I left comfortable making fueling changes after spening the week on the CALC.VET tutorial :)

[WeathermanShawn]

If your 100% sure that I can see the MSD timing twister pull timing in efilive and its working,
I'd like to have a factory 1998 tune file so I can compare the spark tables.

I am NOT 100% sure on the MSD Box. You would have had to log Spark IAT, Octane Scaler, ECT Spark, to be 100% sure. I see you never exceeded 24.5 degrees of Spark on your Nitrous runs, but it could have been those three modifiers contributing.

Your Tune also has a lot of the Knock Sensors desensitized. Its obvious it is designed as a hardcore racing tune. Everything is set-up to not allow the PCM to pull timing at all.
I used this site to compare your Tune: http://www.tunefiledepot.com/. I used PCM 19980100 to compare.

I would definitely mitigate to the 12212156 OS and use COS5. You'll be so much happier. You can utilize the Pids to see how to modify your timing and fuel.

Good luck.

[Taz]

I only do naturally aspirated tuning (no bottles, no boost) as most of the conversions I do are warrantied. I agree with WeathermanShawn's suggestion to move to a COS5 tune - if I understand this correctly, a nitrous timing retard is "built in" to the COS5 - which should eliminate the need for the MSD box - reducing one of the variables in play.

Also, you mentioned previously mixing racing fuel with the "pump gas" in your tank - and ran with no issues (damage). Depending on the octane rating of this fuel, it would have made a significant difference in the "safe" range for spark timing while using nitrous. If I understand correctly, the damage run was on pump gas only. If you plan on running this type of fuel, I would recommend returning the knock sensors to near stock configuration - as a measure of safety.

As you don't have a switch to select "Normal" or "Performance" transmission shift modes, I have attached two examples of possible transmission tunes below. All 1>2 parameters are unaltered - as you indicated no issues with the 1>2 shifts. The Desired Shift Times (D1109, D1110) and Base Pressures (D0702, D0703) have been altered for the 2>3 and 3>4 shifts.

Example 1 - should produce firm shifts. Example 2 - should produce very firm shifts. Again, these are intended as examples only - I'm guessing that the boost valve and servos are similar - but modifications to your trans separator plate may be different than those I use - which may yield differences in flow (volume) and pressure.


Regards,
Taz

[blackflag]

I only do naturally aspirated tuning (no bottles, no boost) as most of the conversions I do are warrantied. I agree with WeathermanShawn's suggestion to move to a COS5 tune - if I understand this correctly, a nitrous timing retard is "built in" to the COS5 - which should eliminate the need for the MSD box - reducing one of the variables in play.

Also, you mentioned previously mixing racing fuel with the "pump gas" in your tank - and ran with no issues (damage). Depending on the octane rating of this fuel, it would have made a significant difference in the "safe" range for spark timing while using nitrous. If I understand correctly, the damage run was on pump gas only. If you plan on running this type of fuel, I would recommend returning the knock sensors to near stock configuration - as a measure of safety.

As you don't have a switch to select "Normal" or "Performance" transmission shift modes, I have attached two examples of possible transmission tunes below. All 1>2 parameters are unaltered - as you indicated no issues with the 1>2 shifts. The Desired Shift Times (D1109, D1110) and Base Pressures (D0702, D0703) have been altered for the 2>3 and 3>4 shifts.

Example 1 - should produce firm shifts. Example 2 - should produce very firm shifts. Again, these are intended as examples only - I'm guessing that the boost valve and servos are similar - but modifications to your trans separator plate may be different than those I use - which may yield differences in flow (volume) and pressure.


Regards,
Taz

Thanks a lot Taz! I just got home from work, so I'll have a look at these trans tunes tonight. I'm especially intersted in firming up the 2/3 shift. I do drove the car several days a week, but also try to goto the track 2-3 times a week as well. I'll get the nitrous tune figured out, it will just take me some more time.

When I stopped mixing in the 110 or 112 race gas is when I started having nitrous problems. Thats when I put on the MSD box, pulled 2* per 50 shot and ran it on 93.
Thought that would be safe enough for a 100 or 150 shot, but obviously I had too much timing in the tune. I'd guess the guy that tuned before tried to put a lot of timing in since the previous owner never had nitrous on it.

Even though it sucks having some damage to the engine, I have learned a lot from this experience and will continue to learn and use nitrous. I *may* end up doing the 2002 PCM swap, but I will talk to MSD to ask them how the timing twister modifies timing and if I should see it in my PID data.

Other option may be to create a nitrous tune with specific timing tables and just upload that when I'm at the track and going to spray it. I'll probably also end up putting a stand-along fuel cell for the nitrous so its always on race gas. It gets expensive putting 5 gal of race gas in at the track to a 1/4 tank of 93 (My usual mix).

I'm still not ruling out that the MSD box didn't pull any timing like it should have. I have heard other people having problems with them too. Plus if I can't see the logged timing then that just makes it harder to tune.

But I will eventually get it figured out! :)

[blackflag]

One thing to note.. the MSD Box is setup as a step retard. It only pulls timing (was set to pull -4*) when the nitrous is activated. THe nitrous is controlled by an FJO nitrous controller that only activates the solenoids/nitrous at 100% TPS.

So say I have the nitrous button activated, it wont turn on the kit or retard timing at anything less than 100% TPS. Also has to be within 3000-5750 RPM.

Knowing this, I can compare the first motor run and look at the timing etc and that may help determine if I can see the MSD pulling timing or not.

Another thing I thought about, was the innovate sensor would have went into that (error 8- sensor timing) because it looks way to flat in the last log especially.

I think it logged correctly on the first motor pass.

[joecar]

In the log SPARKADV is the timing as computed by the PCM... the PCM has no knowledge of the external timing retard box.

[blackflag]

In the log SPARKADV is the timing as computed by the PCM... the PCM has no knowledge of the external timing retard box.

Thats what I was dreading. The MSD box is inline the crank and cam sensor so it must modify the timing inbetween the PCM and the plug. I definately going to take that box off.

I'm making excel calculations right now of B5913 High Octane Spark. Basically taking the stock value with labels, taking my 008 B5913 with labels and putting them into a spread sheet. Then I took the stock and subtracted my values. I'm checking now to see if the math is correct. Seemed like EFILive Tune would show 28 and excel would be something like 27.992635. (Copy with Labels option to select data)

The MSD box pulls the same amount to timing across the entire curve over 1800 RPM. I had it set to 4*. If I wanted to pretend it worked, I guess I could also calculate another spreadsheet of my current B5913 table and subtract -4 in every cell over 1800.

[blackflag]

Here is the spreadsheet I made. It shows my current B5913, stock 98 auto B5913, a calculated table with my current spark table minus the stock table, and finally the last table which would be if the MSD box did in fact pull -4* over 1800 from my current tune.

[blackflag]

Also noticed the LC1 "locked up" in both the 2nd and 3rd logs if you look at the channel data. second log was in the burnout and third was just after launch.

(Around frame 480 in the second log)
(Around frame 490 in the third log)

[blackflag]

Attached is a screenshot of the motor pass tuneup in the scan tool. I am playing around with creating dash pages.

How can I select the data like in the screenshot and save into a new log without using filters? I have the launch frames highlighted and just want to save those into a new log.

[blackflag]

Other than the KR in third/timing issues, this seemed like a close motor tune. This was tune007 before I changed any of the PE values.

[joecar]

Attached is a screenshot of the motor pass tuneup in the scan tool. I am playing around with creating dash pages.

How can I select the data like in the screenshot and save into a new log without using filters? I have the launch frames highlighted and just want to save those into a new log.Look at the buttons at bottom of scantool to the right...

you want the Crop button (deletes any frame that is not selected)...

after cropping, you should go File->Save As and save the cropped log with a new filename (i.e. do not overwrite your original log file).

[blackflag]

Look at the buttons at bottom of scantool to the right...

you want the Crop button (deletes any frame that is not selected)...

after cropping, you should go File->Save As and save the cropped log with a new filename (i.e. do not overwrite your original log file).

Worked Perfect Joe thanks again. I literally looked at every other button. This allowed me to save just the WOT 1/4 pass.

Also making my own dashboard/charts it helped see that even through a certian EQ is commanded in the PE table, doesnt mean its going to be exactly what you put in that table. Also relationships to other pids.

I made a screenshot with an arrow pointing to it.

[blackflag]

One thing I noticed in the log was the serial wideband (LC1) showed 14.7 stoich setting. I though about to using the LMProgrammer and setting LC1 stoich for e10 like in the screenshot attached.

Just wondering if this would change the LC1 values to me more accurate if one used e10 or other custom fuels. I know I did this when I had a methanol drag car last year.

What do you think Joe?

[joecar]

Yes, when you use AFR, you have to program the LC-1 to the stoich of your fuel... when you use EQR and/or Lambda, you don't have to program it.

Always set B3601 to the stoich of your fuel.