Lots of questions (mostly on sensors)

[johnmaster]

My plan is to front mount turbo and blow through a carburetor while retaining most of the factory electronics/engine controls on a 99 Silverado 1500 5.3L. I have some ideas on engine controls but need some tips so I don't start heading down a path that is obviously (to more experienced tuners) not going to work. I have V2 up to date.

Current plan uses bone stock long block as GM put it in the frame, replaces intake with an edelbrock LS style Performer RPM dual plane aluminum intake, knock sensors stay, ect sensor stays, MAP sensor is replaced by either a 2 bar or 3 bar GM, TPS is the Innovate Carb TPS kit earlier GM style TPS, stock coils and ignition, Oxygen sensors for tuning as Needed, I have a new AEM UEGO wideband gauge/sensor and can use 1 or 2 NB sensors if for some reason they are needed. I would like to eliminate the Maf if possible if nothing else for more of a simplistic approach, I would then use a separate IAT sensor and would need to figure out which one is best to use and where is best to put it (before or after the carb). The PCM will not be handling fuel and I want to kill all DTC's related to removing all the injectors and pulling that chunk of harness. I want spark to be adjusted for Boost, IAT, ect, heat soak and any other variables that will effect optimum timing. The goal is for the 4l60 to still shift properly, cruise to work, IAC to stabilize idle and coast rpm. The Air pump/egr will go and I want to turn off all DTC's related to that as well.

The goal is to push the limits of the stock assembly to put down track times, knowing that a boost adjustment and minor retune is all thats needed to make it more of a DD. I have been asked why I don't use the MSD ignition controller box for the LS intake and one of the reasons is that I want all of the other stuff on this truck to work. In an old muscle car it might be an option, but I think this way it will also be able to adjust for boost much more accurately.

Here are the problems I am currently trying to solve,
Do I need to run a MAF or can I run MAFless or create a SD tune?
Will the maf be able to accurately read airflow under boost of 10/15/20lbs without error if I determine I need to run a MAF?
Once that's figured out how do I rebuild the VE table (assuming I would even need to?)

I find that to use a 2 bar or 3 bar map sensor I need a install a COS?
How do I go about getting it from EFI Live, will it cost me anything, what is involved in installing it?

Do I zero out the TPS manually by adjusting it in the bracket it mounts on or can I set zero and 100 percent electronically somehow? I assume the latter but how?

Those are some of the big problems I am worrying about right now. Hope you guys can help me get started on this. As you can see I love to dive in head first and then see if I can swim:)

[WeathermanShawn]

Lots of good questions.

I will handle one of your questions.

No, you do not need a MAF. Many people have successfully tuned without one. The only issue I might debate is that not having a MAF makes it more simplistic. A MAF has a lot of resolution frequencies to work with, and Airflow is also a function of vehicle speed. So its not a worthless Tuning parameter. But, if your airflow exceeds ~ 512 g/s with a Turbo..then going SD or COS is appropriate.

Maybe for practice you can try the CALC.VET Method of Tuning: http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-A-New-Twist-on-CALC.-VE-Table..Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table. Closed-Loop Tuning (with NB's) is a good place to start. Closed-Loop is very forgiving. Get that wideband hooked up ASAP. V2 allows for a serial connection..then its just Plug & Play for the most part.

I'll let others handle your other questions..

..Good luck..

[johnmaster]

Thank you! I agree, I am thinking the airflow will prevent me from trying to run a MAF on this one. I will get that wideband mounted and start messing with this thing stock before I try to get even more over my head than I am.

[joecar]

You mention blowing thru a carburetor... this make things very complicated and isn't necessary, the PCM running a COS has sufficient fuel control; if you peg the MAF then go SD.

With boost, a manifold-referenced FPR will make the IFR table very easy to set.

[schwoch1]

I have to ask, why do you want to use a carburetor??????????? Use the EFI system that GM gave you, it works quite well and is fairly easy to tune when it is all up and running. I was kinda paranoid about tuning my first turbo EFI project, but after about 4 hours of tuning in one day, it was pretty much spot on. If you really want to use a carburetor and use the factory ignition, it can be done, just basically shut off the codes for injectors, program it to be in speed density, and go from there! I recomend though sticking with the EFI...... but tha tis just my opinion....
Hope this helps

Mike

[johnmaster]

Thank you Mike, that was kind of what I wanted to know. If ditching the electronic fuel injection, then closed loop (and any reason to keep a Maf sensor) are out the window. After that, I am now wondering how to make an SD tune out of the parameters I can still determine, knowing that all the pcm is controlling is timing, idle air control, and shift (and perhaps the other factors I am still too green to know). It should be simple since I no longer have to worry about anything related to controlling fuel injectors, the carburetor will simply mix fuel according to airflow. My main concern is providing the correct timing for this application as well as drive-ability and shift control that the PCM provides.

Can anyone help with creating a SD tune from the inputs left as well as using a custom operating system with a 2 or 3 band MAP sensor?

Also any help with dialing in a new TPS sensor? I havent had to mess with that yet and will need to on this project for sure since the new "throttle body" (carb base) range of motion is different than stock?

[MarkR8]

Hi guys, i'm a noob here. Done heaps of reading and can't seem to find the answers to my problems.
I am trying to do a CALC.VET tune on my LS1-B using FS V2 and LC1 WB02.
I have gone over the tutorials religiously, rewritten/copied my Calc.pids etc and log maps.

When I log and follow the tutorial I get data in the range of 0.9 but my main VE table data has data in the range of 46-98 (ish).
My FS was giving the WB02 data out as AFR and the calc.pid selected is for lamba. If this wasn't the problem I am lost for answers.

I am hoping for a summary response on the settings for FS V2 using LC1 WB02 as the tutorial is obviously correct and I am following it. I am certain the response I seek would help other noobs, I am sure it is a small misunderstanding on the configuration with FS and my WB02.

My Main VE table is in % as per the CALC.VET tutorial but could do with an insight as to the correct units to utilise Tune tool also (to be sure).

My WB02 gives a pretty constant 11.0-12.8 AFR when cruising so I am eager to get this set up so I can correct it.

Thanks in advance for your replies and thanks for all the tireless work you people have done in the tutorials and development. I am glad I went with EFILive as the HPT forums don't seem as much as a helpful community.

[WeathermanShawn]

Hi Mark..welcome to the Forum.

You might want to start a new thread. While your topic is similar to johnmaster, you usually get more responses when starting your own new thread.

Once you start your new thread, let us know all of your modifications, OS, current tune, any logs you have, etc. Sounds like you are just having trouble with setting up your Units properly.

Talk to you later.

[johnmaster]

I am also glad that I went with EFI live so far, sounds like they work tirelessly to keep up to date and solve their users problems.

Is there a link to info about obtaining the COS I will need for a SD tune and a 3 bar map sensor? The cos page of the website talks all about the various operating systems they offer but doesn't say how to obtain or use them... I don't want to start messing with my tun file only to find out I need a different one.

[joecar]

+1 start a new thread and post tune file and any log files.

There is a COS5 thread, at the end of it is a COS5.txt file which summarizes what you have to do: Custom-OS-5 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?2599-Custom-OS-5&p=145263#post145263)

All the COS's are included when you install the V7.5 software.

[johnmaster]

Sweet, that will give me something to keep me occupied for awhile...32 page thread!!! Awesome man, I'll dive into it probably later tonight.

Turbo showed up today, makes me hate this bathroom remodeling project even more that I could be test fitting stuff and ogling my shiny new toy. Drywall sucks.

[joecar]

house remodeling = :bawl:

fuel/spark remodeling = :cheers:

[johnmaster]

Aughhh I know. Was up til 2:15 drywalling so the flooring could go in today but still managed to stay up another hour after that reading up on COS upgrades.

Trying to get a logical train of thought going for how to change this PCM over to the OS I need. Sounds like on my 99 I need to first upgrade to the 02 GM OS 12212156. Then once it is running good bone stock on that I can upgrade to Cos5 and get it running good again on that COS bone stock n/a. Then before I tear it apart I believe I should change the MAP sensor and adjust it so it reads correctly and THEN finally I can tear it apart and install my parts and build the calibration how I think it needs to go, hopefully just good enough to make it run and do some logging to start working out the bugs.

What do you think, sound like I am on the right track?

[joecar]

Yes, correct, that is the right track, step by step, checking that engine still runs after each change.



Copy your 1999 tables to the 2002 12212156 file (a little tedious, double check often, use copy-with-labels/paste-with-labels); full flash this into the PCM (and read back and save to file), and make sure engine runs at least same as before.

Then upgrade to 02020005/COS5 (and read back and save to file) and again make sure engine runs at least as good as before.

[johnmaster]

Ok, Cool. Now, building the new calibration for after the installation, that will be a whole different story:)

[johnmaster]

Working on the TPS bracket. Wondering if I adjust for zero throttle position manually and hope my carb has the same degree of swing as the throttle body it was originally intended for? Or can I adjust the voltage for zero and 100 percent throttle in my calibration to get it to where it needs to be?

[Mr. P.]

Working on the TPS bracket. Wondering if I adjust for zero throttle position manually and hope my carb has the same degree of swing as the throttle body it was originally intended for? Or can I adjust the voltage for zero and 100 percent throttle in my calibration to get it to where it needs to be?
Well, thinking about this out-loud, I would guess this to be a non-issue: a carb baseplate has 90-ish degrees of travel from idle to WOT, as does a throttle-body; so I would think since they have the same range of travel, you should be able to use a TPS sensor off a LS1 (which had a cable-driven TB) without issue. I would craft/adjust the bracket so that at carb WOT you get 98+% TPS reading and just run with it, because when the primaries of the carb return to idle the TPS sensor will still show a reading of anywhere between 8-15%, I imagine that would be good enough to work well. I don't think you'll have to "recalibrate" anything, just make sure at WOT the sensor reads 98+%.

Mr. P.

[johnmaster]

10-4, Sounds like I need to build in adjustability to get the closed voltage under .5V or so. I will have to design slots into my bracket and work with it once it is on the throttle body. Yes it has about the same travel, maybe within about 5 degrees or so, I think I am worrying about a non-issue but I still want to learn before I get to that point so I know.

Lots of progress on this in the past weeks. Since then i have acquired a jig (a 2000 short box plow truck) that I have torn apart to fit all of this on before i install it on the actual truck it is going to live in. Most of the hot side is tacked together and 4" exhaust is dangling there (it needs some tlc to fit correctly), cold side is waiting for a few parts coming this week, intake and fuel system are sitting in place but need quite a few hours r&D before they are ready. I ordered the Bov and wastegate from synapse... lots to do but lots of stuff done already. Oh yeah the bathroom is painted and has a toilet and shower working now so that stress is reduced:)

Dumb question but why would I need a narrow band O2 on this application? Computer will not be controlling fuel so closed loop is out of the question. Emissions controls? what emissions? :) Wide band will be used for tuning purposes. I am trying to think of a reason why me or the pcm needs to know what the NB 02 sensor is reading and I can't think of any for this application. Anybody? the wiring harness is getting smaller and smaller as I chisel away unnecessary components.

Another seemingly dumb question, why would I need to know VE or have my VE chart accurate? What role does the ve value play in Transmission shifting, ignition timing, IAC or any of the other things I need this pcm to do for me when the fuel system is taken out of the equation?

Thank you as always!

[Mr. P.]

...why would I need to know VE or have my VE chart accurate? What role does the ve value play in Transmission shifting, ignition timing, IAC or any of the other things I need this pcm to do for me when the fuel system is taken out of the equation?...
I would like to know these same answers - one thing I do know for sure is that the PCM does estimate how much torque the engine is producing (from air mass calculations) and thus increases or decreases the line pressure in the transmission to suit - i.e. when you are ingesting more air, the harder the trans shifts. In my own truck I scaled the IFR and VE table down 20% specifically because my transmission kicked like a mule when upshifting at 8-mph idling through the walmart parking lot!

Narrow bands - I would think you can completely omit them after changing your tune calibration to 100% open-loop speed-density.

Mr. P. :)