Does anyone use Table A0014?

[kostelacd69]

Just wondering if anyone has opinions on the pros and cons of table a0014 in a cos3? If so what values are you useing?

[kostelacd69]

Another question off topic. What are the PID's for logging lamba? I've always logged for AFR due to only useing Gas. I want to learn how to setup for Lamba but cant seem to find all the right PID's for it. Thanks again.

[minytrker]

I have never really been in a situation where I needed to use that table and I use COS all the time.

[kostelacd69]

So your saying that you leave them at 1? Have you done cos on turboed stuff and not use a0014?

[WeathermanShawn]

Another question off topic. What are the PID's for logging lamba? I've always logged for AFR due to only useing Gas. I want to learn how to setup for Lamba but cant seem to find all the right PID's for it. Thanks again.

Depends on if your Analog or Serial Connection. Serial is really the way to go. Look in Pids>>WO2Serial>>WO2LAM1...

[kostelacd69]

If I select the W02LAM1 and deselect my AFR my ben factor lines out. Its been awhile since Ive messed with setting up PID's.

[joecar]

Log GM.EQIVRATIO and EXT.WO2LAM1 (you need a null modem serial comms cable connecting wideband to V2),
your BEN will be {GM.EQIVRATIO}*{EXT.WO2LAM1}.

Look at the calc_pids.txt file in the Calc.VET tutorial.

[kostelacd69]

I have a LM-1 WB. I connect the serial directly to the V2. Cant I just go into the WB and tell it to go Lamba and not AFR?

[Mr. P.]

Lambda and EQR are the "inverse" of each other:

Lambda = 1 / EQR
EQR = 1 / Lambda

So "commanded Lambda" would be 1 / GM.EQUIVRATIO.

Personally I do all my thinking in EQR, since this is how the PCM thinks; I take the Lambda from the WB02 and convert it to EQR to compare against GM.EQUIVRATIO.

Mr. P.

[joecar]

You can define the BEN pid like this (which is identical/equivalent): {GM.EQIVRATIO}/{EXT.WO2EQR1}


{EXT.WO2LAM1} is just a shortcut for 1/{EXT.WO2EQR1} and vice-versa.

[joecar]

I have a LM-1 WB. I connect the serial directly to the V2. Cant I just go into the WB and tell it to go Lamba and not AFR?Yes, in the V8 S&T software, go into Device Settings, and tell it to automatically log all the serial/digital pids...

this will get you the following wideband pids:
- EXT.WO2AFR1 (based on the wideband's assumed stoich)
- EXT.WO2EQR1
- EXT.WO2LAM1
- EXT.WO2ST1

Note that WO2EQR1 and WO2LAM1 are related as Mr.P showed above.

[kostelacd69]

Ok cool. What about the "Null Modem"?

[joecar]

Look at the calc_pids.txt file in this thread: A-New-Twist-on-CALC.-VE-Table..Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-A-New-Twist-on-CALC.-VE-Table..Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table).

[joecar]

Ok cool. What about the "Null Modem"?The serial cable needed to a serial-capable wideband to the V2 requires a null moden Rx/Tx wire swap...

You can:
- buy a ready-made LM-1 serial cable from TAQuickness,
- make your own null modem cable,
- use a null modem adapter with the cables that came with, see post #3 here (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?9340-serial-port-cable-that-goes-to-v2&p=81205&viewfull=1#post81205).

LM-1 and LC-1 are similar.

[joecar]

And, of course, you have to set the V2 serial port to wideband, and select Innovate (can do this directly via the V2 LCD menus, or via V8 S&T software to program the V2).

[kostelacd69]

Oh ok, I have that already. Thats how Ive been tuning my AFR for 3 years now. Basicly this whole thing is how to log Lamba or EQ and is there a benifit with one of those compared to AFR. Also the table A0014, is that something people use alot with out nailing down the VE and spending a day trying to firgure out how much fuel needs to be added or taken from that table. Thanks everybody!

[kostelacd69]

Yall some smart mo-fo's haha, hints why I bug you!

[minytrker]

So your saying that you leave them at 1? Have you done cos on turboed stuff and not use a0014?

I tune turbo and pro charged cars pretty often and I always use COS when I can, I still leave that table alone. I have not had a need to use the table. Are you having a problem when your IAT's get high or something?

[kostelacd69]

No sir, just bored going through the tune and seeing if there is anything I am missing. Thank you for your help. I will leave it at one.

[joecar]

Wideband assumes some stoich AFR which probably does not match the fuel you're running. Lambda is regardless of stoich AFR, i.e. can be used on any fuel.

GM.AFR is based on B3601... but when comparing GM.AFR and GM.EQIVRATIO some of us have seen that GM.AFR is missing a few squiggles compared to GM.EQIVRATIO, the squiggles being correct according to the fueling table being used (verified using the scantool->tunetool cursor linkage feature).

So, it becomes safer and easier to avoid stoich AFR and think/work in Lambda and EQR... this is also what Greg Banish recommends in his books.

Edit: added a note.

[kostelacd69]

So what do you guys think, log in Lamba or in EQ? Whats best? When you say Lambda can read afr regardless of fuel type, how? If I run say E20 and log in AFR's then switch to 100% Gas and log again the VE numbers are going to be different right.? So if I do the same test but logging in Lamdba or EQ what will be different? Either way the PCM wont know a differences in fuels, only what I tell it stoich is (i.e. 14.68 gas or 14.07 E10). I understand how 3601 works and how B3647 is efected by it. I run a COS3 semi CL most of the time in OL, so trims really are not a worry for me. Sorry if these questions dont make sense! Thanks again for all the help.

[WeathermanShawn]

This topic can really test your brain. It took me about 3 weeks, thinking about it for a few hours a day to really get it.

The best advice I can give you is to drop AFR from your brain for a while. In most OS's, you only need it in B3601. Personally I then just use EQ. The percentages work perfectly then (from stoich). You can just use a 3 X 5 card with simple EQ conversions to AFR if you want..but you just have to change the way you view it.

Hope that helps. Simplify it..EQ does that!

[kostelacd69]

I understand how to view it, I guess my question is how is viewing these 3 differently going to effect anything. If 3601 is say 14.00 and my B3618 is .78 how is that any different then viewing it as 11 AFR. Except the fact that if 3601 goes to 14.5 now 3618 has to be .75 to keep the 11 afr.

[kostelacd69]

Same thing goes for Logging how does it change anything when logging it in EQ or Lamdba vs AFR. Either way with either fuel the WB is going to report back to you what is sees. right?

[kostelacd69]

Oh one more thing, If you are viewing EFI Live in AFR and your 3601 is set to 14.68 and b3618 is set to 11. Now change 3601 to 14, save, close, and reopen the tune you will see that 3618 has gone down about .6 as well. So if my tune is perfect and is set for 100% gas. When you want to run E10 knowing that it is 14.07 Stoich, when you change 3601 down to 14.07 now all the other tables have droped with it making it not go lean Right??? How is this bad.

[WeathermanShawn]

I'm somewhat following your questions, though I am a little confused as to what you are asking.

Changing B3601 does have a direct effect on your Injector Flow Rate (IFR). A change from 14.68 to 14.124 (E10) is ~ +4 % increase in IFR. If B3618 is set to an EQ of say 1.16, then during PE the IFR will increase +16%. If you are trying to equate that to AFR, that is ~ 12.17.

This also has an effect on Trims if using Closed-Loop. Try filling up with E10, vs gasoline without changing B3601 and you will see your Trims adjust (+/- 4% depending on how B3601 is set-up).

In all your examples, the only time you would run into problems is if you try to set B3618 using AFR alone. If B3618 was set to 12.6 AFR, and you change B3601 to E10..your B3618 AFR of 12.6 in EQ now would be only 1.09. You would be lean!!!

Somewhere there is an old thread that is about 30 pages long that discusses this to near exhaustion. I'll try to find it..I guess the bottom line is that as long as you are using EQ or Lambda and get B3601 correct, all is well. Introducing AFR into B3618 will leave you lean. What your wideband and Pid settings are set in is not controlling any of what we are discussing.

Hope that helps..

[joecar]

So what do you guys think, log in Lamba or in EQ? Whats best? When you say Lambda can read afr regardless of fuel type, how? If I run say E20 and log in AFR's then switch to 100% Gas and log again the VE numbers are going to be different right.? So if I do the same test but logging in Lamdba or EQ what will be different? Either way the PCM wont know a differences in fuels, only what I tell it stoich is (i.e. 14.68 gas or 14.07 E10). I understand how 3601 works and how B3647 is efected by it. I run a COS3 semi CL most of the time in OL, so trims really are not a worry for me. Sorry if these questions dont make sense! Thanks again for all the help.The LS1B PCM provides no commanded Lambda pid, but it does provide a commanded EQ pid (GM.EQIVRATIO).
V2 provides both wideband Lambda and EQ from a serially connected wideband (EXT.WO2LAM1, EXT.WO2EQR1).
With an analog wideband, you have to create Lambda and/or EQ pids.

Lambda does not read AFR... it reads the ratio/fraction relative to stoichiometry of the mixture's resulting exhaust oxygen content (stoichiometry has Lambda 1 for all fuels).

No, VE will remain the same for different fuels, i.e. cylinder airmass does not change when you change your fuel.

EQ is the reciprocal of Lambda, i.e. EQ = 1/Lambda.

For example:
- light throttle cruise you will be in closed loop so Lambda is 1.00 (EQ is 1.00), regardless of fuel used;
- you open the throttle wide, PE enables, Lambda goes to 0.855 (EQ goes to 1.17) which is suitably/safely rich for making power, regardless of fuel used.

[joecar]

I understand how to view it, I guess my question is how is viewing these 3 differently going to effect anything. If 3601 is say 14.00 and my B3618 is .78 how is that any different then viewing it as 11 AFR. Except the fact that if 3601 goes to 14.5 now 3618 has to be .75 to keep the 11 afr.This is why it gets you messed up.

When the the fuel is different (stoichiometric is different), the PE AFR should also change;
e.g. AFR 12.5 is suitable for PE with E00, but is too lean for E10;

E00 has stoich 14.63
E10 has stoich 14.12
E85 has stoich 9.78

say PE is set to EQ 1.17 (i.e. 17% richer than stoich), then: for E00 this is AFR 12.50, for E10 this is AFR 12.07, for E85 this is 8.36.

17% richer than stoich: this tells you whether PE is suitably/safely rich for making power regardless of fuel.
12.50, 12.07, 11, 8.36: doesn't tell you that unless you know/remember the stoich of the fuel you're using.


The PCM does all its fueling calculations in EQ, and only uses B3601 at the very end to calculate fuelmass grams so it can calculate IPW.

[joecar]

Same thing goes for Logging how does it change anything when logging it in EQ or Lamdba vs AFR. Either way with either fuel the WB is going to report back to you what is sees. right?The wideband assumes you're using gasoline (stoich 14.7) so it will report an incorrect AFR for E10, E20, E85...

but it will report the correct Lambda.

[joecar]

Oh one more thing, If you are viewing EFI Live in AFR and your 3601 is set to 14.68 and b3618 is set to 11. Now change 3601 to 14, save, close, and reopen the tune you will see that 3618 has gone down about .6 as well. So if my tune is perfect and is set for 100% gas. When you want to run E10 knowing that it is 14.07 Stoich, when you change 3601 down to 14.07 now all the other tables have droped with it making it not go lean Right??? How is this bad.The EFILive tunetool allows you the option to view commanded fueling in AFR... when it does this, it adjusts the commanded fueling tables based on B3601.

If you view commanded fueling in EQ, then the tables do not change when you alter B3601.

[joecar]

Oh one more thing, If you are viewing EFI Live in AFR and your 3601 is set to 14.68 and b3618 is set to 11. Now change 3601 to 14, save, close, and reopen the tune you will see that 3618 has gone down about .6 as well. So if my tune is perfect and is set for 100% gas. When you want to run E10 knowing that it is 14.07 Stoich, when you change 3601 down to 14.07 now all the other tables have droped with it making it not go lean Right??? How is this bad.When viewing commanded fuel in AFR units, the tables B3605, B3647, B3618 display in AFR units... when you drop B3601 then B3605, B3647, B3618 also drop, the new values are in the same ratio to the new stoich as the old values were to the old stoich... can you see why...?

[joecar]

Oh one more thing, If you are viewing EFI Live in AFR and your 3601 is set to 14.68 and b3618 is set to 11. Now change 3601 to 14, save, close, and reopen the tune you will see that 3618 has gone down about .6 as well. So if my tune is perfect and is set for 100% gas. When you want to run E10 knowing that it is 14.07 Stoich, when you change 3601 down to 14.07 now all the other tables have droped with it making it not go lean Right??? How is this bad.When you change B3601 from AFR 14.68 to 14.00, B3618 will now go from AFR 11.00 to 10.49...

Or, speaking in terms of EQ, when you alter B3601 to a new stoich, B3618 will remain at EQ 1.3345 regardless of the value in B3601.

The problem comes in when attempting to alter the tables to maintain the same PE AFR when stoich is changed (like you said in post #23 above).

:)

[joecar]

Yall some smart mo-fo's haha, hints why I bug you!LOL, thanks, that's the best compliment I've had in about 10 years.

[kostelacd69]

The LS1B PCM provides no commanded Lambda pid, but it does provide a commanded EQ pid (GM.EQIVRATIO).
V2 provides both wideband Lambda and EQ from a serially connected wideband (EXT.WO2LAM1, EXT.WO2EQR1).
With an analog wideband, you have to create Lambda and/or EQ pids.

Lambda does not read AFR... it reads the ratio/fraction relative to stoichiometry of the mixture's resulting exhaust oxygen content (stoichiometry has Lambda 1 for all fuels).

No, VE will remain the same for different fuels, i.e. cylinder airmass does not change when you change your fuel.

EQ is the reciprocal of Lambda, i.e. EQ = 1/Lambda.

For example:
- light throttle cruise you will be in closed loop so Lambda is 1.00 (EQ is 1.00), regardless of fuel used;
- you open the throttle wide, PE enables, Lambda goes to 0.855 (EQ goes to 1.17) which is suitably/safely rich for making power, regardless of fuel used.

This makes more sence!

[kostelacd69]

The wideband assumes you're using gasoline (stoich 14.7) so it will report an incorrect AFR for E10, E20, E85...

but it will report the correct Lambda.

Once again makes sence.

[kostelacd69]

When viewing commanded fuel in AFR units, the tables B3605, B3647, B3618 display in AFR units... when you drop B3601 then B3605, B3647, B3618 also drop, the new values are in the same ratio to the new stoich as the old values were to the old stoich... can you see why...?

So if viewing in AFR all the tables change together keeping the "ratio" the same, why would this be wrong? This would also be close to the same thing as as the percentages of EQ or Lamdba (14.6/1.17 or 14.0/1.17). Either way the values move down as 3601 moves down.

[kostelacd69]

So for all the post its hard to gather all my thoughts at once and try to put them down and have them all make sence. Ok so now Im starting to understand that logging this in Lamdba is better than AFR (as stated above). As far as viewing the tune the only reason I can see that you would want to view in Lamdba is because it would get confusing reading it in AFR and logging in Lambda. Regaurdless of how you are viewing it in your tune the results are the same. (EX. AFR-3601 is 14.6 and B3618 is 11. Now change 3601 to 14 and 3618 also drop .6. Same with Lambda- 3601 is 14.6 and 3618 is .75 now change 3601 to 14 and 3618 will not change from .75 but the end result will still frop as far as AFR did.). Ok with all that said I am with the reason why to tune in Lamdba. I hope that everyone follows what I was trying to get at in the EX. I need now to set up my scan tool to AutoVE in Lambda. So I am going to go into my PIDS and select W02LAM1 and EQIVRATIO. then Change my existing MAPs from AFR to Lambda right?

[joecar]

So if viewing in AFR all the tables change together keeping the "ratio" the same, why would this be wrong? This would also be close to the same thing as as the percentages of EQ or Lamdba (14.6/1.17 or 14.6/1.17). Either way the values move down as 3601 moves down.It's only wrong if B3601 is not correct for the fuel being used.

Also, it is not wrong, but it is mentally hard to keep track of... when you're at the drag strip your opportunities are limited so you have to think quickly.

Or, another way to look at it:
Can you answer this quickly: is AFR 9.4 sufficiently rich for PE when stoich is 10.4 (quickly without calculating)...?
How quickly can you answer this: is EQ 1.175 sufficiently rich for PE...?

[kostelacd69]

I agree with your question. No you can not answer it quickly and have an exact number. You could guess and say that it needs to be 3 points richer haha. So with all that said How do I set up my Auto VE in Lambda not AFR. Its been awhile since Ive done BEN's.

[joecar]

I agree with your question. No you can not answer it quickly and have an exact number. You could guess and say that it needs to be 3 points richer haha. So with all that said How do I set up my Auto VE in Lambda not AFR. Its been awhile since Ive done BEN's.Look at the calc pids file in this thread: Calculating-MAF-Airflow-From-VE-Table..CALC-VET-In-Reverse (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?16413-Calculating-MAF-Airflow-From-VE-Table..CALC-VET-In-Reverse)

AutoVE is a special case of the Calc.MAFT tutorial where CL/LTFT is disabled and only wideband BEN is used (i.e. SELBEN = WO2BEN).

[slows10]

This is great information from Joecar and the weatherman. Thanks for taking the time to post all this up.

[joecar]

Thanks.

I added a note post #20 above... (see the green part).


Wideband assumes some stoich AFR which probably does not match the fuel you're running. Lambda is regardless of stoich AFR, i.e. can be used on any fuel.

GM.AFR is based on B3601... but when comparing GM.AFR and GM.EQIVRATIO some of us have seen that GM.AFR is missing a few squiggles compared to GM.EQIVRATIO, the squiggles being correct according to the fueling table being used (verified using the scantool->tunetool cursor linkage feature).

So, it becomes safer and easier to avoid stoich AFR and think/work in Lambda and EQR... this is also what Greg Banish recommends in his books.

Edit: added a note.

[kostelacd69]

Great guys. I got it all figured out, I will try it when I get home. Another random question. Is EFI Live ever going to come out with something that will control boost through the pcm (2001 silverado pcm). I know that they have it for the newer PCM's but what about the older stuff like mine? One more, are they going to come out with something like on the fly tuning like the HP Tuners stuff or are we stuck with buying a 600 dollar Moates unit?

[ScarabEpic22]

What do you mean control boost? Isnt that exactly what the COS3 and COS5 let you do? Im pretty sure LS1 COSs arent going to be revisited anytime soon unless there's a bug in them causing issues, the 512kb ones havent been used for 9 years and the 1MB ones for 4.

To do on-the-fly tuning, yes you will need a RoadRunner. I cant comment on their development plans but I doubt any new LS1 PCM features will be added, the calibration definitions havent been updated since 2008 I believe.

[joecar]

I think he means electronically control a BOV.

[ScarabEpic22]

I think he means electronically control a BOV.

Ah, you can only do that on factory-equipped boosted E67s, if you take a regular tune and then setup the VVE and spark tables for boost you cant control a BOV as that code doesnt exist for non-boosted OSs (or is dormant behind the scenes and not available to us).

[kostelacd69]

Ok, I mean the WG. I want to be able to control boost by gear and so on. Thanks for everything.

[kostelacd69]

Ok guys another question. Looking for a simple answer. Say you take a car that is tuned perfect in OL for 100% gas. If you are reading the AFR on a WB and it is saying 14.7 and Lambda is reading 1. You now take that same car with no changes and nothing helping trim anything cause of being OL and you put e85 in it. What will the WB read out in AFR's and what will the read out be in Lambda?

[WeathermanShawn]

The wideband assumes you're using gasoline (stoich 14.7) so it will report an incorrect AFR for E10, E20, E85...

but it will report the correct Lambda.

Usually the wideband will convert 1.00 Lambda to 14.7 if programmed to gasoline. So, lambda will be correct, but the AFR displayed incorrect. (what Joecar said..:grin:). The wideband would still read 14.7, but would not be correct. Lambda would be 1.00

B3601 would be incorrect..hence your fuel mass incorrect..IPW would not be correct.

You would need to re-program the wideband to E85 or use a Calculated Pid.

[kostelacd69]

I understand that my question was not reprograming anything knowing that the readings would be wrong, what would the readings be (AFR 14.7 and Lambda reading something like 1.3)?

[WeathermanShawn]

I understand that my question was not reprograming anything knowing that the readings would be wrong, what would the readings be (AFR 14.7 and Lambda reading something like 1.3)?

The wideband would still read 14.7, but would not be correct. Lambda would be 1.00.

[kostelacd69]

Why would the Lambda still be 1 if the combustion was extremely lean?

[WeathermanShawn]

[COLOR=green]Lambda does not read AFR... it reads the ratio/fraction relative to stoichiometry of the mixture's resulting exhaust oxygen content (stoichiometry has Lambda 1 for all fuels).


If you are still commanding an EQ of 1.00, it will always read a Lambda of 1.00 (stoich)..

Lambda will read 1.00 regardless of fuel used. For example, I use E10 in Colorado, but I leave my wideband settings to gasoline. So, I am cruising around at a Lambda of 1.00, AFR 14.7..Lambda is correct, but my true AFR is 14.12..

[kostelacd69]

If you put e10 in a tuned 100% gas motor and change nothing at all with no trims your WB will still read Lambda 1 even though you new fuels Stoich is lower? Maybe im not explaining myself well enough haha IDK

[WeathermanShawn]

Yes, that is absolutely true. Thats why we say to use Lambda or EQ for calculations. The stoich is 1.00 Lambda for all fuels. I can switch from E00 to E10 3 times a week and my wideband will always read a Lambda of 1.00. If I leave the widebands internal settings to gasoline it will also always read 14.7 Thats what Joecar meant when he said..the Lambda will be correct, but the AFR incorrect.

You almost have to just try it to get it..I did just what you did for three weeks..Lambda stoich is 1.00 for all fuels..

[WeathermanShawn]

If you put e10 in a tuned 100% gas motor and change nothing at all with no trims your WB will still read Lambda 1 even though you new fuels Stoich is lower? Maybe im not explaining myself well enough haha IDK

This is where you are confusing yourself. The stoich is never lower. Its always 1.00 regardless of fuel. Only the stoich AFR changes..

[kostelacd69]

hmmm even if you dont change your VE table or anything to adjust for it needing more fuel due to being a lower stoich?

[WeathermanShawn]

Again, it does not have a lower stoich..It still is 1.00 Lambda for all fuels..

Now, without trims or changing B3601 your fueling would be hosed. But, if you changed B3601 to the proper AFR, and kept your Tune all in EQ or Lambda life would be good.

[kostelacd69]

haha I hate typing. I understand that Lambda in sence measures how much o2 is in the exhaust or how well everything burned regaurdless of fuel type to determine Lambda. I also understand that in a tune the only thing you change in AFR is 3601 to dictate stoich for what ever fuel you are useing. This is no longer the question. My question is simple. Take any car that is setup for 100% gas with no triming turned on and put E10 in it. Your WB will no longer say Lambda 1 right? Due to the fact that the tune is not adjusting for the fuel type.

[WeathermanShawn]

I understand that Lambda in sence measures how much o2 is in the exhaust or how well everything burned regaurdless of fuel type to determine Lambda.

Your wideband will read 1.00 lambda. See you said it yourself in the statement above.

[WeathermanShawn]

Here is a recent screenshot of an Open-Loop Tune & log, I did a few days ago.

I filled up with certified E10 fuel. I left my wideband settings on gasoline.

Look in the upper-right portion of the Log (Labels). See it shows Lambda of 1.00 and an AFR of 14.7 (from wideband). The Lambda is correct, but the AFR would be incorrect.

Sometimes you just have to do dozens and dozens of logs before one can 'get it'.

Thats the best example, I can show you..

[joecar]

Ok guys another question. Looking for a simple answer. Say you take a car that is tuned perfect in OL for 100% gas. If you are reading the AFR on a WB and it is saying 14.7 and Lambda is reading 1. You now take that same car with no changes and nothing helping trim anything cause of being OL and you put e85 in it. What will the WB read out in AFR's and what will the read out be in Lambda?


If you put e10 in a tuned 100% gas motor and change nothing at all with no trims your WB will still read Lambda 1 even though you new fuels Stoich is lower? Maybe im not explaining myself well enough haha IDK


haha I hate typing. I understand that Lambda in sence measures how much o2 is in the exhaust or how well everything burned regaurdless of fuel type to determine Lambda. I also understand that in a tune the only thing you change in AFR is 3601 to dictate stoich for what ever fuel you are useing. This is no longer the question. My question is simple. Take any car that is setup for 100% gas with no triming turned on and put E10 in it. Your WB will no longer say Lambda 1 right? Due to the fact that the tune is not adjusting for the fuel type.
Are you saying in OL...?

The PCM used B3601 to convert commanded EQ to fuelmass.

If B3601 is incorrect (i.e. still at 14.63), then in OL the fuelmass is under-calculated, so Lambda will be greater than 1 (i.e. lean) in OL...

E10 (stoich 14.12) with B3601 still at 14.63:
CL: the PCM will trim to Lambda 1.
OL: the PCM will command Lambda 14.63/14.12 = 1.036.


E85 (stoich 9.78) with B3601 still at 14.63:
CL: the PCM will trim to Lambda 1.
OL: the PCM will command Lambda 14.63/9.78 = 1.496.

Otherwise in both cases, with CL/trimming the wideband reports Lambda 1.

[WeathermanShawn]

Clarification..

There are some important premises and conditions we must know to answer your question accurately. Are you saying with no change to B3601? That will certainly change your fuel mass, which will change your BENS and yes your wideband reading of the actual fuel mass.

I answered your question with the premise you led with..[ my wideband AFR still reads 14.7}. I thought you were referring to the Wideband/Lambda conversion.

Ask your question again. I think I know where you are going with it now..:)..

[joecar]

With B3601 at 14.63, running E10 (14.12), the wideband will report as follows:
CL: Lambda 1.000, AFR 14.70 (but actual AFR is 14.12 which is stoich),
OL: Lambda 1.036, AFR 15.23 (but actual AFR is 14.63 which is leaner than stoich).

With B3601 at 14.63, running E85 (9.78), the wideband will report as follows:
CL: Lambda 1.000, AFR 14.70 (but actual AFR is 9.78 which is stoich).
OL: Lambda 1.496, AFR ~22 (but actual AFR is 14.63 which is much leaner than stoich).

(the wideband assumes the stoich AFR is 14.7).

[joecar]

kostelacd69,

Weatherman is saying it here:

Usually the wideband will convert 1.00 Lambda to 14.7 if programmed to gasoline. So, lambda will be correct, but the AFR displayed incorrect. (what Joecar said..:grin:). The wideband would still read 14.7, but would not be correct. Lambda would be 1.00

B3601 would be incorrect..hence your fuel mass incorrect..IPW would not be correct.

You would need to re-program the wideband to E85 or use a Calculated Pid.



Again, it does not have a lower stoich..It still is 1.00 Lambda for all fuels..

Now, without trims or changing B3601 your fueling would be hosed. But, if you changed B3601 to the proper AFR, and kept your Tune all in EQ or Lambda life would be good.
i.e. Weatherman is saying that in OL the Lambda will be higher (leaner) because B3601 is leaner than the stoich of the fuel being used.

[kostelacd69]

With B3601 at 14.63, running E10 (14.12), the wideband will report as follows:
CL: Lambda 1.000, AFR 14.70 (but actual AFR is 14.12 which is stoich),
OL: Lambda 1.036, AFR 15.23 (but actual AFR is 14.63 which is leaner than stoich).

With B3601 at 14.63, running E85 (9.78), the wideband will report as follows:
CL: Lambda 1.000, AFR 14.70 (but actual AFR is 9.78 which is stoich).
OL: Lambda 1.496, AFR ~22 (but actual AFR is 14.63 which is much leaner than stoich).

(the wideband assumes the stoich AFR is 14.7).

Thank you! That's what I was looking for.