Stock ls7 with procharger 6psi 65# injectors tune help

[robertryan23]

Hello everyone. I am putting a P-1sc procharger tuner kit on my 07 Z06 w/ 65# injectors and wanted to see what suggestions you all might have for how to go about tuning it. Any information would be great. Thanks.

[L31Sleeper]

Buy an EFI Live V2, Buy and install a wide band oxygen sensor, buy some dyno time.

-Justin

[robertryan23]

Yeah no doubt. I already bought efi and it is set to be here tomorrow. I've played around with the demo program and just wanted to see if anyone had some example tunes or any ideas

[L31Sleeper]

Once you get your v2 you can read out your stock tune, until then check out Tune file depot.com/ (http://www.tunefiledepot.com/)

Innovate Motorsports - Wide Band Oxygen Sensors/ (http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/)

[J.Abbott]

Yes, sign up for Gregs next GM class and attend it. Until then don't touch your car. You can get the videos also, they will start you in the right direction, but you are playing with a combination that will not be very tolerant of mistakes, so do all the above before you try to actually do anything. (Calibrated Success) search that in google and it will get you what you need.

[robertryan23]

Well I actually switched to ID850's and meth injection and was able to figure it all out. I learned a ton of things about the E38 along the way that many people watching Greg's DVD's would get confused and cause problems. Like for instance him saying that every table in grams, grams/second, or grams/cylinder need to be scaled. Doing this can cause many issues. For instance, halving the minimum idle airflow table. This table actually has nothing to do with airflow/fuel delivery and everything to do with throttle position. I plan to post an informative report on everything I have learned along the way. As far as telling someone to not go for something they are interested in and capable of without taking a several thousand dollar class or two 250 dollar dvd's, I disagree. All depends on a person's background and knowledge of controllers and systems. So glad I went for it and gained the knowledge I did. If only one senior member was willing to help, I probably wouldn't have learned as much as I did. So from one non senior member to another, he is right that those classes and dvd's will help you tremendously if you have no knowledge of these systems. But if you have a very technical background, just study the tables and go for it.

[slows10]

Thanks for posting back. Sounds like the dvd is pretty good, I am going to purchase it soon. Look forward to you posting up some more of what you learn along the way.

[joecar]

RR23, thanks for posting back :cheers:

[J.Abbott]

I think you may have missed something. Those tables are directly related. In the base running airflow table you are telling the PCM what it is so that it will adjust accordingly. If you scaled your system you need to scale everything with air/fuel that is based in g/sec. When you don't fix that you are reporting that way more air is coming through then it actually is, remember when you scale you have also changed the size of your engine for the purpose of scaling. I have scaled several E38 and I have not had an issue by scaling that table. I will say this though, just because someones title says Senior Tuner, don't take that as anything. That is how many times they have posted. Corvette Forum does the same thing, you have guys on there all day posting who don't know a rocker arm from a pushrod but they are considered experts because of the amount of posts they have. Yet when a Corvette Engineer from the plant logs on for the first time and gives someone some great info he is looked down on because he is a newbie on there, like that makes his imformation worthless or something. You will never see allot of posts from me, and I will probably not ever make it to senior tuner, I am here working and clibrating cars, not surfing forums. So I am not trying to take anything aways from some of those senior tuners who are very good, but all I am saying is don't take that title as having any actual meaning. I know Greg and ot trying to jump on a band wagon, but he has been doing this for a long time, and was a calibrator for GM, he knows what those tables are. I went through his class and the explanation was very clear of what tables need to scaled when scaling and which ones don't, the table you mentioned, needs to be scaled.

[J.Abbott]

I will say this, the video can be confusing the first time through because there is allot of information, I watched it a couple of time and then went back to different sections if I had a question. It is obviously easier in the class because if you have a question or are not sure about something it can get answered right then.

[L31Sleeper]

J.Abbott I'll try to get you to 40...........LOL

I try to have straight forward advice, buy a v2, buy a WBO2

Why would you have to scale everything unless you max out your injector value ?

-Justin

[J.Abbott]

Justin,
Wasn't really going after you so to speak.
The only reason you would ever want to scale is if you run out of air on the MAF or injector sizing is too big for the PCM to recognize. When you scale you lose resolution and resolution helps keep everything smooth. So you only want to scale if you have to, and really now that is on the older E38's. The newer 09 up has more room to work with.

[slows10]

It looks like he did max his injector value. Looks like 7.999 g/s is it.

[J.Abbott]

I have not looked at his cal, but if he maxed the injector value then he will have to scale it. When you scale it anything with g/sec has to be scaled, don't forget to look in transient fuels, it has to be done also. Remember you are tricking the PCM about how much mass is moving through it, so all of it has to jive.

[slows10]

J Abbott, If you know your stuff please stick around lol. Dont know if you are a pro or not. Doesnt really matter. Ive read a ton of great posts from 2005-2008 here from some really good guys who knew their stuff. Dirk Diggler, DFE1, RHS etc etc. It was great to read what those guys wrote. They dont come around anymore, wish they would. So if you are in their league stick around.

[J.Abbott]

I am not going anywhere, I am just not on here much because of time. There are plenty of great guys that are still on here. I am sure Howard from Redline is posting also. I did not mean for it to sound as if I am leaving or anyone else, just very busy with work. I was only on here now because someone else had called and asked me to look at something. I don't mind helping anyone, I just don't like getting caught up in he said she said and this guy has tons of post so he knows what he is talking about. I hear that on a daily basis, this guy tunes for $149 so he must be allot better then you since you charge so much more. You know the drill.
Justin

[L31Sleeper]

I am not going anywhere, I am just not on here much because of time. There are plenty of great guys that are still on here. I am sure Howard from Redline is posting also. I did not mean for it to sound as if I am leaving or anyone else, just very busy with work. I was only on here now because someone else had called and asked me to look at something. I don't mind helping anyone, I just don't like getting caught up in he said she said and this guy has tons of post so he knows what he is talking about. I hear that on a daily basis, this guy tunes for $149 so he must be allot better then you since you charge so much more. You know the drill.
Justin

x10

I've helped people with tunes before and get criticism up the ass, even if the guy I'm helping is happy.

[robertryan23]

Yeah I maxed out the Inj flow rate with the ID850's. But through many tests, I found that on this 07 Z06 with an E38, the min idea air and cranking idle air tables do not need to be scaled. I tested this over the course of 15 or 20 flashes. If you max out min idle airflow table and set the min idle area to say 1.2, you will get a throttle postion of around 19%. With the min idle air table maxed out you can directly find the throttle position and air value that causes the correct amount of spark with little adjustment. If you scale the stock min idle airflow table by 50%(i did a 50% scale) it will cause the engine to bog on start bc the throttle position adjusts to low. After fighting with the min idle airflow table on this scaled tune i found that it will only adjust what the throttle position is during idle. When you do not scale it, it does not cause over fueling. this table needs to be left at what the actual, true value of airflow is bc it is setting the min throttle position. so leaving this table about 8 g/s (rather than a scaled 4) allows the min throttle position to be at around 19%. then add at least 3% to the min idle area and you will have a sufficient min and max idle throttle positon range. Also the cranking idle air doesnt need to be scaled either. A scaled value gives this car a hard start. returning it to normal produces a perfect start every time. Also after spending many hours scaling this tune and losing resolution in the process, I decided to try a different approach to the scaling. I simply doubled the stoic afr that is in the ecu. combine that with the 50% fuel injector data and bam, car runs perfect (with the calibrated mass airflow transfer function of course). No other tables have to be changed. The 02 sensors still function perfectly bc they still switch at the same voltage. which is in correlation with stoic of 14.68. So, as of right now I dont see a problem with scaling with this method. all of the lambda values remain the same and the wideband is producing the same results as with a 50% scaled entire tune.

[robertryan23]

So basically what i am saying is, i scaled it. I went that route. Thats what caused me to do all of this testing. It did not work when those two tables were scaled(min idle airflow, cranking idle airflow). This is bc they are controlling throttle position and not fuel schedule.

[L31Sleeper]

Would you be willing to post the files using both methods ??

-Justin

[robertryan23]

here they are....including the original

[robertryan23]

i also have a file where i didnt use the g/cyl scaler in the spark tables. I just found through testing that you didnt need to interpolate and to use this scaler instead. either way you still will lose the resolution.

[robertryan23]

and with both of those scaled tune files i havent turned closed loop back on. so nobody use those and run with them bc they are not put back together

[joecar]

Thanks for posting tune files :cheers:

Do you have any log files we can look at...?

[L31Sleeper]

Thank you, most people (particularly pro tuners) aren't willing to share.
I'm always interested in learning.

-Justin

[J.Abbott]

Sorry I have not been back in a couple of days.
L31Sleeper, I am not arguing, but what you are saying does not make sense. If you scaled the size of your engine then your airflow numbers are accurate. I end up working mostley on E38's just because most of the Corvettes being modified have E38's in them. I don't have idle issue or start up issue. I make sure my injector data is correct becuase that will mess you up in the idle and low speed area if it is. I can't see where scaling my injector data and then setting my stoich twice what it should be makes any sense. I think there is something you are forgetting in the scaling, I don't think the video shows everything but is more of a summary, he says you need to look at anything with g/sec and that is allot of tables. I wish you luck and hope it all works out for you, but I don't or can't understand how that method is going to have good results.

[L31Sleeper]

Sorry I have not been back in a couple of days.
L31Sleeper, I am not arguing, but what you are saying does not make sense. If you scaled the size of your engine then your airflow numbers are accurate. I end up working mostley on E38's just because most of the Corvettes being modified have E38's in them. I don't have idle issue or start up issue. I make sure my injector data is correct becuase that will mess you up in the idle and low speed area if it is. I can't see where scaling my injector data and then setting my stoich twice what it should be makes any sense. I think there is something you are forgetting in the scaling, I don't think the video shows everything but is more of a summary, he says you need to look at anything with g/sec and that is allot of tables. I wish you luck and hope it all works out for you, but I don't or can't understand how that method is going to have good results.

I'm cornfused, what didn't make sense ??

[J.Abbott]

Your airflow data. If you had decreased your engine volume, then all air tables are doubled, not the same as being accurate or actual air.
So I guess by doing what you did you found another way around a problem that may be working for you, but it does not make sense to make it more difficult. Example, if you take your car before you modify it. You have you "tune" that is running just right and then you take and scale that "tune" and reload it, the car should have not changed hardly any. The only thing you are really going to see is in the timing table, you may have to smooth the boundry points a little more since you have lost allot of resolution, but the car should run just fine with no quirks. If you have an issue then there is something else wrong, either a table that did not get scaled or a actual hardware piece that is a problem. Anyways it is nice to think outside of the box but I don't think was the right way to do it even if you are making it work. What happens when you turn closed loop on?

[L31Sleeper]

Still confused, this isn't my car nor my tunes nor my technique ?

[J.Abbott]

Sorry, I was quickly replying to you. Are you saying your confused about what I said or what they said.
I don't like having a Stoich of 29.36 which is what I was referring too.

[L31Sleeper]

You are not arguing, but what I'm are saying does not make sense..................The only thing I said was buy a V2 and a WBO2 ???
are you talking to Robertryan23 ??

[robertryan23]

Abbott.....Heres why scaling using just stoich AFR and Injector flow rates make sense...

If you double the air to fuel ratio, you are saying that the fuel you are using takes twice as much air as previously needed. The computer sees that you need twice as much air per amount of fuel and then cuts fuel in half(compared to normal stoich). The computer will command the amount of fuel (based on the IFR table) needed to complete the combustion process at this doubled afr. Now if you are reporting (tricking) the computer into thinking the flow rate is half of what it really is, then the combustion will come out to be at a true stoich of 14.7.

ie....tricking the computer to think it needs half the fuel it really does.....also tricking the computer to think it is delivering half the fuel it really is.

[robertryan23]

example....

Normal 14.7 stoich....at 14.7 g/s of airflow the computer needs to deliver 1 g/s of fuel.....

now for the scaled 29.4 afr...at 14.7 g/s of airflow the computer delivers .5 g/s of fuel....buttttttt with a 50% scaled injector flow rate table it is actually delivering 1 g/s of fuel

[robertryan23]

oh and i dialed in the tune over the weekend at the dyno. Ran out of fuel pump at 540 rwhp...so on to fixing that and it will finally be good to go