problem with calc.vet

[loganlewis]

i have all the pids selected. both the calc.vet map map vs rpm and the selben map. the selben map shows data from 1-1.4 is that right? i dont see a calc.vet filter tho for it. and also, when i look at map a which is my calc.vet map, it shows cell counts but when i click on the large x to show average cell values its all 0's. any ideas what im doing wrong? thanks

i can post up a log if anyone thinks that will help

[Taz]

Hello loganlewis,

Refer to the CALC VET sticky by WeathermanShawn for complete details ......

The SELBEN values are a factor, or multiple - your values of 1.00 to 1.40 will be used to multiply the current values in the corresponding MAF cells. Make sure to use at least 2 decimal places.

If you used percent as your VE units, no data will be displayed until you input your vehicle data ("Edit" menu ... "Log file information" submenu) ... then save the file and close. When you reopen the file the data will be displayed.

You need to setup a data filter ... can use the same one for VE and MAF adjustments .... take a look at the above mentioned sticky.

It takes a little while to get the CALC VET system setup for the first time ... but the tuning method works well once you get it configured.


Regards,
Taz

[loganlewis]

I referred to it as you said and got it to show the data. It feels better. Can this be done for the whole tables or just under 4000rpm? I have an aem uego wideband hooked up and I have a aem picks and have to activate the ad1 external 0-1 pod and it shows afr. My question is the calc.vet pids show an external lamba cable but I don't know what good it does me as it doesn't show the voltage like the aem pid does. Any ideas taz?

[Taz]

CALC VET can be used for the entire RPM range - as long as PE mode does not occur - when using the CALC VET method I disable PE - but this means you have to keep a close watch on the A/F mixture and also not overheat the catalytic convertors.

Don't completely understand your WBO question. Is the AEM WBO you are using an analogue or serial WBO ? PIDs for analogue WBO will be manufacturer specific - that is, you will need to write an appropriate CALC PID if using an analogue WBO.


Regards,
Taz

[loganlewis]

Well the converters are off the truck. I have a calc pid for the aem it logs properly but does the wideband even contribute to calc.vet? Or just go off of ltft. Or do I need to just watch it to make sure it's not too lean? Sorry for all the questions I appreciate your help

[Taz]

No worries my friend ... the Forum is dedicated to questions ....

The CALC VET method uses an "iff" statement in the CALC PID to select LTFT or WBO data as the "BEN" factor for tuning. WeathermanShawn or Joecar would be able to explain how the if / then statements operate in the CALC PIDs - not an area I claim any expertise !

If memory serves, there was an issue with how some "iff" statements were selected in previous software versions - I think this has been remedied. The CALC PID(s) can be rewritten to "force" the selection of the WBO data (i.e. not use the LTFT data)


Regards,
Taz

[loganlewis]

Now my selben table is only showing 1.0 and 1.1 does that seem right? I am just annoyed been tryin to do it all day with nothing but failure lol

[Taz]

If the SELBEN values are 1.00 (remember at least 2 decimal places) - that means no change to the MAF values of that particular cell (i.e. these would be multiplied by 1.00). SELBEN values of 1.10 indicate the MAF values of that particular cell should be increased by 10% (i.e. multiplied by 1.10).

Setting up a good filter (see the sticky) will help remove transient events (i.e. engine cold, in PE mode, rapidly changing TP, etc.) from the SELBEN and VE data.


For best results:

confirm DFCO has been disabled
operate the vehicle at steady TP at the RPM values used in B0101
these include 1200 / 1600 / 2000 / 2400 / 2800 / 3200 RPM
steady state at RPM values that fall between these (i.e. 1800 / 2200 / 2600) - may end up being "averaged" to the next closest cell - potentially causing increased variation in the recorded data
Your values of 1.00 to 1.10 are pretty good for an initial run. I have had initial test drives where the BEN factor exceeded 25% - in those cases it is unwise to drive the vehicle very far (lean damage may occur) - stop and add the required safety margin to the target table before continuing.
Sounds like you are making progress - it will take a little while to get use to the tuning technique. Remember to set your precision to at least 2 decimal places (I use 4), and set up a good (reasonable) filter.

Once the shape of your VE and MAF tables are getting close - consider disabling PE for the last (or last few) drive cycles - to obtain more data for the upper RPM / higher load (kPa) cells (VE and MAF).


Regards,
Taz

[joecar]

Post screenshots.

[loganlewis]

Of what?

[joecar]

Of the VE map and the MAF SELBEN map.

[joecar]

I referred to it as you said and got it to show the data. It feels better. Can this be done for the whole tables or just under 4000rpm? I have an aem uego wideband hooked up and I have a aem picks and have to activate the ad1 external 0-1 pod and it shows afr. My question is the calc.vet pids show an external lamba cable but I don't know what good it does me as it doesn't show the voltage like the aem pid does. Any ideas taz?Without lambda then you cannot apply calc.vet for open loop since you will not know that the correction is.

[loganlewis]

Well I'm not sure how to do screen shots or what u want them of? and I did everything under 4000rpms and it drives alot better and before I started the afr cruising would jump all over the place now it hangs between 14.3-15.0 and is smooth. The lambda thing does not show anything that's what I was wondering about as well. Is it because I use the aem 0-5v wire and hook it into the ad1 port on the v2. And now that the 4000 and under tuning is done, I have no positive fuel trims that I saw. And the things I changed to tune (change u2 switchpoints to 450, change dfco, and change other table from 4000 to 400), do they need to be changed back now that I'm done tuning for a few days or change them back?

Like I said I really appreciate the help. Taz helped me in the beginning maybe you can help me finish!

[WeathermanShawn]

LL:

Are you just using LTFT corrections or correction from your wideband also.

We need screenshots to verify the results. Thanks..

[loganlewis]

Just ltft that's why I stayed under 4000rpm I'm not sure how to incorporate my wideband even though I have te calc pids for it and log it and the logs show my afr the whole time

[WeathermanShawn]

Can you at least post up your calc_pids.txt file?

Keeping the Rpms under 4000 Rpm will not necessarily keep you in closed-loop. So you are not getting as accurate of a tune that way. It only takes 34% TPS at 4000 RPM's to initiate PE.

Its totally up to you. People who post up, but won't share their results helps no one. There may be a dozen other readers who could benefit from your helping others out.

But, if you are totally happy with your Tune..enjoy your ride..:)

[loganlewis]

I'll have to get screen shots tomorrow but just wondering how I'm going to use my wideband to do 4000+rpms with pe disabled. Like I said I searched and found a guy who posted the pids to use for an aem gauge and I select the pid aem wbo2 afr and external voltage ad1 pid and it all works. Need to figure out how to incorporate the aem afr pid into calc.vet I guess. Screen shots will be posted tomorrow if I figure out how

[WeathermanShawn]

I suspect you are not using the correct calc_pids.txt file.

Taz is an experienced Tuner who disables PE, but incorporates other methods to tune.

CALC.VET allows both closed-loop and PE mode simultaneously.

Let us know if we can help..

[loganlewis]

It's not that I don't want to post it up I am in bed I'm replying back on here off my phone. So tomorro I'll get that stuff up. How do you take a screenshot

[WeathermanShawn]

It's not that I don't want to post it up I am in bed I'm replying back on here off my phone. So tomorro I'll get that stuff up. How do you take a screenshot

..http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?3064-Hosting-an-Image&highlight=hosting+an+inamge..:)

[joecar]

I take it you're using the wideband analog 0-5V connection...?

The AEM UEGO supports serial connection, this is highly recommended over the analog connection if you have a V2.


V2 serial/digital AFR input (AEM):
showthread.php?15748-AEM-compatibility (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15748-AEM-compatibility)
showthread.php?16636-Installing-an-AEM-Wide-Band-02-and-logging-afr (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?16636-Installing-an-AEM-Wide-Band-02-and-logging-afr)

[loganlewis]

here are the screen shots:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f346/mdmigr8r/selben.png

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f346/mdmigr8r/pids2.png

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f346/mdmigr8r/pids1.png

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f346/mdmigr8r/calcvet.png

there is 2 pics of the pids because 1 screenshot could not get them both in 1.

and yes im using the analog 0-5v connection. im guessing thats wrong then

[WeathermanShawn]

There is a problem.

You are using an Analog wideband, but your Pid you selected (External Wideband Lambda) is for a Serial Connection.

Your Map of your VE Table (check units and make sure they match your Tune) show erroneous readings at 14.5 Psi. This is also probably inferring your MAF Table B5001 is wrong.

It might be more productive if you simply attach your Tune & Log, as the screenshots lack the full range of data and are a little hard to see.

My advice would be to slow down..There should never be a rush to Tune. I would first read up on getting a Serial Wideband connection. Then re-read the CALC VET Tutorial many times and any other thread that relates to it. Take care when making your Maps that they show units and preferably metric.

I would not use the current Tune from this log..It is inaccurate...

[loganlewis]

Well I am buying a cord today to hook it up via serial. Iv read this thing so many times I get headaches. I set up the tables like it said. My tune is in % not gpa that's how I selected tables. It's aggrivating

[loganlewis]

Where it's 14.5 I did not use those high numbers I just blended it from the cells around it. I mean you all are the professional tuners not me that's why I'm asking for advice. But now just driving normal my ltft are 0 and rarely hit a positive number anymore. That's why I'm curious as to how getting the serial lambda thing going is going to affect my results. I kno I'm full of questions I appreciate the help once I figure out I'll feel a lot better I guess

[WeathermanShawn]

I am not a 'Professional Tuner'. This is just a hobby/pursuit that I really enjoy doing. I understand its 'aggravating', but Tuning is a multi-step process that requires a certain amount of exactness.

With units, I meant using metric instead of imperial..I.E., not using Psi in your VE Table, but kPa. The calculations work regardless of whether you use metric or imperial, but metric is far superior for comparing results and sharing them with a worldwide audience such as EFILive.

Its good you are hitting +/- 0 LTFTS when driving normally. What are you hitting when you apply throttle? Don't you want to tune that also?

I am more interested in seeing your MAF table, B5001 (from 1500-12,000 Hz). I would post up your Tune & Log. I would not want to see you use inaccurate data for your PE Mode/WOT.

[loganlewis]

you may not classify yourself as a proffesional tuner but i read on here who is GOOD at what their doing. either ways, your better than i am.

11227

11228

[WeathermanShawn]

Thanks..

Logan, the closed-loop portion of your Tune looks pretty good. As you said your LTFT Trims are really good, and I do not see any knock retard on your log..which is excellent.

Pid-wise there is just a slight problem with your picking a Serial Wideband pid when you are utilizing an Analog Wideband. We can either give you a workable Analog Wideband Pid, or preferably wait until you hook up a Serial Wideband connection.

In any case I would just leave your current Tune as is. Don't cut and paste any of the MAF/VE Table updates just yet.

I'm sure we can figure out a workable solution. Joecar may be able to help us on your Pid selection. That may require you post up your calc_pids.txt file. We may be able to edit it, and then you would just overwrite a new one into your computer.

Let us know..

[loganlewis]

Well the tune I sent you has that log already incorporated into it. I am going to get a phone cord today and make the cable to do serial logging. Once I get that set up where do I go from there as far as a standpoint on how much iv done on my tune already? Thanks

[joecar]

On the PIDs tab, on MAP do rightclick->Metric.

On the two maps, under each of the Data, Row, Col tabs checkmark Show Units.

[joecar]

The pid CALC.WO2BEN uses EXT.WO2LAM1 from the serial connection... you have an analog connection which provides CALC.AEM_AFR.

You have to edit CALC.WO2BEN in calc_pids.txt to read "{GM.EQIVRATIO}*{CALC.AEM_AFR}/14.7"

but instead of using 14.7 you have to use whatever stoichiometric AFR the AEM assumes (see AEM user manual).


This is explained in more detail post 1 of this thread: A-New-Twist-on-CALC.-VE-Table..Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-A-New-Twist-on-CALC.-VE-Table..Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table).




. . .

II. ANALOG WIDEBAND AND/OR V1 USERS

There are two methods of obtaining analog lambda which are identically the same thing. The first method has the user pre-calculate two constants (i.e. the user pre-calculates this: AFR pid divided by stoich AFR); it evaluates in one step (it evaluates lambda directly in one calculation). The second method evaluates two steps (it evaluates the AFR pid first, then divides it by stoich AFR to obtain lambda).

Method 1:
Using NGK AFX as example:
Define CALC.LAMBDA to be ({EXT.AD1}*0.096)+0.62
Define CALC.WO2BEN1 (CLC-00-110) to be {GM.EQIVRATIO} * {CALC.LAMBDA}

You could also reduce those two pids into a single pid:
Define CALC.WO2BEN1 (CLC-00-110) to be {GM.EQIVRATIO} * (({EXT.AD1}*0.096)+0.62)

Method 2:
Using LC-1 as example:
Define CALC.LAMBDA to be {CALC.AFR_LC11}/14.7
Define CALC.WO2BEN1 (CLC-00-110) to be {GM.EQIVRATIO} * {CALC.LAMBDA}

You could also reduce those two pids into a single pid:
Define CALC.WO2BEN1 (CLC-00-110) to be{GM.EQIVRATIO} * ({CALC.AFR_LC11}/14.7)

. . .

[joecar]

Like Shawn said, go slowly... print post #1 of the tutorual and the summary notes, and with a marker check off each step as you go. :)

[joecar]

Shawn and I are amateurs/hobbyists... we have been exposed to many tunes and tuning questions here on the forum, and we practice a lot. :cheers:

[loganlewis]

What's this going to do for me? Just curious

[loganlewis]

I mean what is clicking show units going to do...and I'm just going to wait till I hook it up serial this afternoon. After I hook it up serial and get it all working what's my next step?

[WeathermanShawn]

Its extremely important that your Scan units match your Tune, or the data will not be accurate.

Its also makes it very efficient for us on this end to verify your data when we know what units you are using..:)

[joecar]

What's this going to do for me? Just curiousWhat, Shawn's and mine's suggestions, or the Calc.VET tutorial...?

The Calc.VET tutorial does this (in a single log):
- correct MAF table,
- calculate VE from corrected MAF table,
- zero your LTFT's.

It uses LTFT's to do for CL, and requires a wideband to do for PE/OL/WOT.

[joecar]

The immediate problems I saw in the images above:
1. MAP units in scantool did not match MAP units of table B0101 (solution: change scantool MAP pid units to Metric).
2. WO2BEN does not factor in Lambda from your analog wideband (solution: either edit calc_pids.txt or use a serial cable (may have to make one)).

[joecar]

Its extremely important that your Scan units match your Tune, or the data will not be accurate.

Its also makes it very efficient for us on this end to verify your data when we know what units you are using..:)+1

It allows sanity checking.

[joecar]

Also note PE can trigger below 4000 rpm.

This means: if not using wideband, then filter out (exclude) data for which EQIVRATIO is not 1.00; otherwise get wideband lambda correctly factored into WO2BEN.

[loganlewis]

ok well as soon as i get off work im getting the phone cord to turn into my serial cable. you said that calc.vet can do open loop, wide open and pe mode is that correct? or does it just take into consideration all of those when the wideband is hooked up correctly to do the higher throttle portions of the maf and ve tables?

[loganlewis]

and you all are pure genius's to me lol i only wish after all this and practice i can be as good!

[WeathermanShawn]

Thanks for the compliment. Joe and I have a slight advantage since we both have a background/working knowledge of physics. But, I am learning something new almost every day!

The CALC VET 'automatically' knows whether you are in closed-loop or PE. When you switch off of LTFTS (PE Mode) it recalculates based off the wideband. I will admit it is pretty unique in that regard.

I am hoping you get the serial connection going. We have helped 'tutor' many new tuners on this forum. Its gratifying when they see how 'easy' it ends up being..
Let us know..:cheers:

[loganlewis]

and also joecar you said my MAP units did not match my b1010 table and turn it to metric but when i look at the map in scantool under map a it reads in % and my tune in the tune tool shows %. just curious on that thanks

[joecar]

In the scantool SAE.MAP can have Imperial units (psi) or Metric units (kPa)... your pic above shows SAE.MAP having Imperial units... on this pid do rightclick->Metric.

In the tunetool, SAE.MAP is the horizontal axis of B0101, it has units kPa.

[joecar]

ok well as soon as i get off work im getting the phone cord to turn into my serial cable. you said that calc.vet can do open loop, wide open and pe mode is that correct? or does it just take into consideration all of those when the wideband is hooked up correctly to do the higher throttle portions of the maf and ve tables?
Yes, correct, as long as wideband is providing the correct value for lambda.

You can either:
- use analog connection provided you edit the WO2BEN pid to use this.
- use serial connection provided you connect using a null modem serial cable.

Analog connection has the disadvantage of voltage offset error.

Serial connection has the advantage zero voltage offset and noise immunity... serial is recommended, but for your AEM you may have to make a cable (refer to the threads I listed).

[joecar]

lol... we're not geniuses, we're just car guys in the age of the flashable rom... :)

[loganlewis]

Basically it looks like I need to get a regular rj12 phone cord, cut one end off and wire it to my gauge thru the serial wire of my gauge and ground the other wire for ground like the thread you mentioned above and the other end plugs into the rs232 plug right

[joecar]

Basically it looks like I need to get a regular rj12 phone cord, cut one end off and wire it to my gauge thru the serial wire of my gauge and ground the other wire for ground like the thread you mentioned above and the other end plugs into the rs232 plug rightYes, correct.

[loganlewis]

Ok well I'll get back to you tuning gurus later once I get it set up

[loganlewis]

failure on setting it up. bought the phone cord. followed taqcables site on setting it up and the controller was never found. i hooked the red wire to the blue serial wire off the gauge and the orange wire to ground and nothing happened. but when you look at the plug those wires are side by side. maybe you can help me choose which wires i need...if the clip of the phone cord is at the top, it from left to right the colors proceed as so: light blue, yellow, red, green, black and white. any ideas which ones need to be hooked up then? mayeb my cord is not the same colors as taq's cable.

[joecar]

Did you look at these threads. especially the second one:


...

The AEM UEGO supports serial connection, this is highly recommended over the analog connection if you have a V2.


V2 serial/digital AFR input (AEM):
showthread.php?15748-AEM-compatibility (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15748-AEM-compatibility)
showthread.php?16636-Installing-an-AEM-Wide-Band-02-and-logging-afr (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?16636-Installing-an-AEM-Wide-Band-02-and-logging-afr)

If you can't get serial comms going then just stay with analog, but in the file calc_pids.txt edit CLC-00-110 to uses the correct lambda which you will have to lookup in your AEM user manual.

[loganlewis]

Iv been messing with it for an hour I can not get it to work serial. So analog it is sorry guys! U said I have to change that to look at the aem gauge but not use 14.7...what am I looking in the owner manual the closest thing to 14.7 it shows is 14.68. The lambda for that is 1.003 the voltage is 2.34. So do I put 1.003 is instead of where 14.7 is?

[joecar]

Iv been messing with it for an hour I can not get it to work serial. So analog it is sorry guys! U said I have to change that to look at the aem gauge but not use 14.7...what am I looking in the owner manual the closest thing to 14.7 it shows is 14.68. The lambda for that is 1.003 the voltage is 2.34. So do I put 1.003 is instead of where 14.7 is?Does the owner manual show an equation relating AFR to V...?

Which model AEM UEGO do you have...?

[loganlewis]

Aem uego 30-4100

And no it just shows a chart with o2 volts, lambda, gas afr, meth afr etc...
2.03v-14.06
2.18v-14.36
2.34v-14.68
2.50v-15.00

That is some of the volts and what they relate to to afr. I kno that I enable the ad1 external volt pid and it shows my volts. The one calc.pid in there actually shows my afr how come it can't be left at 14.7? Just throwing ideas out lol

[joecar]

Ok, the AEM 30-4100 has the equation AFR = V*2+10 which is the same as the PLX...

so you can use the pid CALC.AFR_PLX1....

can you post your calc_pids.txt file here...

[loganlewis]

11235

[WeathermanShawn]

Looks like you have a few redundant calculated pids we can clean up too..

[loganlewis]

like what?

[WeathermanShawn]

Logan:

No biggie. Joecar is the expert on calc_pids.txt file. I just spotted a couple of calculated pids that are not necessary or are repeating.

I know Joecar will spot them..I was just getting a few code issues I saw on the record.

Don't worry, we will get it straightened out..:)

[loganlewis]

im guessing joecar is going to make a new pids list for me from what i understand lol

[WeathermanShawn]

He almost always does..give him a little time.

[loganlewis]

Blackbear just sent me my tune for my 8.1 injectors I wish I'd own know that's all that had to be changed. I full flashed an 02 os in this truck 6 months or so ago off a buddys flashscan and had to change injector flow rate etc then. I thought going to bigger injectors would new more changed. I was wrong! So I'm goin to put them in this afternoon and sed him a log. But I want to keep messing with this tune to see how much I can learn. Maybe I'll compare the tune you all are helping with to his at the track.

[WeathermanShawn]

Changing the injectors obviously requires a change in the injector flow parameters. That is a totally different issue, separate from CALC.VET.

CALC.VET is tuning of the MAF/VE Airflow and Trims required for a good tune. You have to tune that yourself. No one else can do that for you, as that is unique to your own vehicle.

I am sure we can help with a 'practice' tune, but you will need to adjust your own MAF/VE table and Trims.

[loganlewis]

I kno it didn't have anything to do with calc.vet tuning but I was just saying that as a sidenote lol

[WeathermanShawn]

I don't like working on tunes where an OP is using multiple tuners or combing tuning methods. Its just leads to confusion and errors.

Maybe I misunderstood your 'side-note'. Do you now have a tune for your vehicle?

[loganlewis]

I'm not combining tuning methods. The first gas truck I messed with years ago all I did was up timing, has no TM or abuse mode and shift timing is zero'd. The only reason I got a tune through Blackbear is because that's who I got efi through but if I can log and adjust my own stuff id rather run my tune that way I can say I did it no body else. If one day I knew as much as you as Joecar I'd be happy. The only thing done to my tune in there now is what I mentioned at the beginning o this post. And your saying my tunes would be better off if I did it not anybody else because I have to adjust ve and MAF.

[loganlewis]

Like I said this gas tuning is new to me. If someone wanted a duramax to run 12s that's no issue just gas tuning is so much more critical

[joecar]

Use this calc_pids.txt file (attached).


The AEM 30-4100 AFR:V function is the same as the PLX (AFR=V*2+10).

The AEM 30-4100 user manual contains the following table:

Gasoline AFR = Lambda x 14.65
Methanol AFR = Lambda x 6.47
Propane AFR = Lambda x 15.7
Ethanol AFR = Lambda x 9.00
CNG AFR = Lambda x 14.5

[joecar]

When you change injectors, you need to recalculate table B4001 using the spreadsheet http://www.marcintology.com/tuning/injectors.xls

If your FPR is at the fuel rail and has a manifold reference hose, then your B4001 will be flat horizontal (use first cell of spreadsheet for all cells).

Otherwise your FPR is un-referenced in which case B4001 will be sloped (use spreadsheet values).

Before using the spreadsheet measure your rail pressure with engine running (if manifold reference FPR, then temporarily remove reference hose from FPR before measuring).

You should also copy all the other injector tables from the tune file that matched the injectors, if you have it.

[WeathermanShawn]

Blackbear just sent me my tune for my 8.1 injectors I wish I'd own know that's all that had to be changed.

I was just pointing out you need to change more than that for a good tune.

As Joecar pointed out, there are a number of exact changes that need to be made to the injector parameters for them to be accurate. I am trying to avoid new tuning problems while in the middle of a CALC.VET.

Just post up your new tune when you get it..

[loganlewis]

I My fpr is on my driver side fuel rail and has a vacuum line connected to it going into the top if the intake manifold

[loganlewis]

what pids should i use now since im looking at afr though the plx pid?

[WeathermanShawn]

You choose the Analog pid applicable to your wideband.

As soon as you load up the calc_pids.txt file Joecar published you can find your pids under Calculated or Tuning.

[joecar]

Yes, you just use the pids mentioned in the tutorial...

if you want to view AFR use CALC.AFR_PLX1, but this is for viewing only.

[loganlewis]

Thanks. So now i can tune high rpm ve and MAF correct? What's next step to tuning after that?

[WeathermanShawn]

Oh, there is always something new to Tune.

Most of us fine-tune Spark and AFR/EQ. Spark will take some dyno-time.

[loganlewis]

i cleared trims, drove around with the new pids and logged and man my trims were negative. like -7% and -14% is that good? i have made no changes or logged since last time i posted it on here

[WeathermanShawn]

Logan:

Can you post your latest log. Might be good to re-post your latest Tune.

No way of telling until then.

[loganlewis]

11245

here is the most recent log. the tune it was logging was when i posted the tune and first log. that tune had already been updated with the last log a few pages back.

i drove a boys truck earlier that had a nelson tune, it was an 05 5.3 4x4. he said he logged his 3 times and sent it back and forth to nelson to get it dialed in and his seems to accelerate SO much easier than mine. not for the fact its 5.3 i know. like his pedal is so much more responsive i really liked it. mines drive by cable his is drive by wire i dont know if that makes a difference but i feel like i get in mine and its a dog compared to his even just accelerating easy.

[joecar]

11245

here is the most recent log. the tune it was logging was when i posted the tune and first log. that tune had already been updated with the last log a few pages back.

i drove a boys truck earlier that had a nelson tune, it was an 05 5.3 4x4. he said he logged his 3 times and sent it back and forth to nelson to get it dialed in and his seems to accelerate SO much easier than mine. not for the fact its 5.3 i know. like his pedal is so much more responsive i really liked it. mines drive by cable his is drive by wire i dont know if that makes a difference but i feel like i get in mine and its a dog compared to his even just accelerating easy.After you apply the MAF correction and VE calculation from that log (remember to filter out transients), set PE B3618 to 1.16 all across... that may improve throttle response a little... the next thing to log is SPARKADV (this should bring the pid channel count to 24 which is still good; don't exceed 24).

What fuel are you running...?

[joecar]

Also, you need to operate the throttle more progrssively/smoothly (use the brakes to hold vehicle back), this gives better data.

[loganlewis]

I run 93 everytime I put gas in it

[WeathermanShawn]

One thing this proves is that you can have nearly perfect LTFTS in closed-loop, but have inaccurate fueling in PE Mode.

You are actually quite lean in PE Mode/WOT. As Joecar stated apply the Filters, and re-read the Tutorial on how to apply your new SELBENS.

Edit: Running too lean or even too rich really cuts power.

[loganlewis]

the way im applying them is applying the filters, gettin rid of cells with low cell counts. then i select the whole table and copy with labels. i go to my tune to the maf frequency table b5001, and select all, paste and multiply with labels. i just looked at the calc.vet pdf that is exactly how it says to do it? am i missing something?

and when i log SPARKADV, is there going to be a map to make that can adjust timing as well or will we get into this after i figure out why im lean in pe?

[loganlewis]

wow never mind i think i may have found out why. i went back to shawns thread about calculating calc.vet in reverse. i read it once but ever since iv been refeering to the pdf that was wrote. you wont beleive what i didnt do! i havnt failed the maf since iv been doing this!! talk about an idiot. that probably could lead to why pe is lean you think? so back to step 1....once i log 2 or 3 times with the maf table, ill post a log up i guess and the current tune to see what you think. after the ve and maf are configured, do you re-enable the maf or leave it disabled?

[WeathermanShawn]

Logan, you are really getting yourself confused.

There is absolutely no need to fail the MAF in order to do CALC.VET. In fact, if you do the method will not work. This is why I ask new Tuners to please slow down. Sometimes it is best to simply do nothing but read Tuning books, old threads, Tutorials..everything you can prior to tuning.

CALC.MAFT is an SD Tuning method for advanced Tuners. You are doing CALC.VET, which utilizes the MAF. You must follow the Tutorial exactly! Literally hundreds of others have successfully done it, but they all followed the Tutorial.

Try applying the CALC.VET Tutorial exactly as is. Don't worry about "why am I lean", correct it using the method.

Report back your results..:)

[loganlewis]

Well if I was doing it correct then I still don't get why it's lean.

[WeathermanShawn]

Because you never had your wideband working before. You never tuned PE mode.

Until now you only tuned the closed-loop portion of your tune. Speaking of that, the Tune you posted looks like a lot of PE Mode has been 'disabled' (is B3616 really supposed to be 70% TPS). So you have never tuned PE Mode before.

You need to take that last log you did..Filter, remove low counts, and then apply all the changes from that log into a new tune. You have not done that yet. this was the first log you did where your wideband Pids were working.

You need to study what closed-loop means and how the MAF works with the VE Table. Its very hard to tune without those basics. The SELBENS correct the MAF..which then corrects the VE Table and Trims. But you need to apply the changes.

Do another log with the changes we talked about. Then repost your new log.

[loganlewis]

IS the normal pe mode enable supposed to be at 70%? iv never changed it

[WeathermanShawn]

Differing OS's may have different PE TPS Enablers. I am asking you to double-check it. My vehicle enables as low as 34% at some RPM's. I am saying you should know the basics of Tuning at this point, and that is one of the most important features of PE tuning.

Just because you 'have not changed it', does not mean it is correct. Double-check it by searching the threads, comparing against stock, asking on a new thread etc. We can tune PE Mode via CALC.VET with it at 70%, but you need to be happy with that high of an enabler.

Research it..

[Taz]

Gentlemen,

Trying to stay out of this thread ... as I now realize I had made some incorrect assumptions about comfortability with this technique, and / or preparedness ... and had made some suggestions that would have been best left to future discussion.

Regarding B3616 (Normal PE Mode Enable) - a 2002 Camaro OS will generally enable PE from 64% TP (at low RPM) to 34% TP at higher RPM. Truck tunes - in general - enable PE at 90% TP at all RPM levels. The truck tune PE approach is not optimal for performance - as it keeps the engine out of PE as long as possible. In a truck tune, the PE parameters are an area of opportunity to "sharpen" throttle response.


Regards,
Taz

[joecar]

Taz has a good point...

Logan, please post a pic of your B3616.

[WeathermanShawn]

Taz, your contribution is always welcomed.

As more and more forum readers utilize CALC.VET we are encountering more trucks, boosted vehicles, etc. Not only are they new challenges, but their experience can tell us a lot about how successful we may be in expanding its uses.

Logan, I am only trying to encourage you to learn as much background information as possible, but we really appreciate your effort. Taz, as always feel free to jump in. There are many areas we just do not have the expertise in yet..:)

[Mr. P.]

...Truck tunes - in general - enable PE at 90% TP at all RPM levels. The truck tune PE approach is not optimal for performance - as it keeps the engine out of PE as long as possible. In a truck tune, the PE parameters are an area of opportunity to "sharpen" throttle response...
+1. You will also find the PE delay is a lot longer in truck tunes (versus car tunes).

Mr. P.

[joecar]

Mr.P also has a good point... set B3608 and B3609 to zero.

[loganlewis]

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f346/mdmigr8r/b3616.png

[WeathermanShawn]

Regardless of the OP's PE TPS %, I think he might have thought that utilizing CALC.VET in his first few attempts (No wideband, No Lambda, No PE Mode tuning) was enough.

His last log showed +/- 0 LTFTS for closed-loop, but had SELBENS of +15% when he did engage PE. Regardless of tuning methods, when he smashes the throttle, he is very lean.

Logan, regardless of our PE Mode sidebar..you need to now apply the SELBENS from your last log into your Tune. Then, barring any mechanical issues or wideband error, your next log should have significantly improved.

When you do that, post up your corrected Tune and your new log..

Again, don't worry about ' why am I lean', you have some work to do..:).

Thanks..

[loganlewis]

I must say I feel bad for my truck for all this hard driving on it lol. I can already tell it gets better mileage and I have not exactly been easy on it this week doing all this logging

Logging wide open is easy just stick it on the floor but what about the cells around it? Just off some? Sometimes when I have it in 1st gear is still shifts to second...and my truck as 2.5" true duals with single chamber flowmasters no cats and it makes a lot of ruckus doing this tuning as well hahaha...poor neighbors

[WeathermanShawn]

I hear you. I have done about 50K of logging..sometimes 6 tunes in one day. I always keep fresh oil, plugs, O2 sensor, tires, etc. on it. Luckily I live in pretty wide-open spaces, so I don't bother any neighbors..just antelopes.:grin:.

Merging cells takes some practice. Read this when you can: http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?16280-CALC-VET-Summary-Notes

[loganlewis]

You all are like an encyclopedia. Never stop coming with info lol

[loganlewis]

How do I get the linear version of the ve table to show? I can't find the button for it. I feel as if it will help me blending greatly

[Taz]

With B0101 open in the Tune Tool ... "Calibration" menu at the top ... click on "Show 2D chart" ...


Regards,
Taz

[loganlewis]

Thanks. I'll post back in a few days with updates

[loganlewis]

Well guys I did the calc.vet tuning about 3 more times and got everything dialed in great. Saturday I put my walbro255 in, CAI, and a nitrous outlett wet kit on. It's set up for 50 shot currently but I need to change my plugs. I'm going to go with br7ef's. It currently has tr5's in. BUT....of course i always hit a bump in the road.after I put the fuel pump in and CAI on, I noticed my afr on my wideband seemed a lot more jumpy. Ok no big deal I'll just do calc.vet 2 or 3 times and get it dialed back in. Now if I'm at a stop and just tap the throttle and let up it will jump to 12.0 then in the 16s and then settle. The worst thing is, now at wide open the afr is staying between 12.2-12.5 after doing it about 5 times I gave up. In the wide open cells the counts were over 50. commanded PE eq ratio is 14.67 (1.16 eq ratio) across the board.

I'll gladly post up most recent log and the tune updated with it in the am as I left my computer at home and am using my gone to write this. Does anybody have any ideas on why I can't hit 12.8-13.0 like I was?

[WeathermanShawn]

What is B3601 set to?

1.16 EQ is ~12.5 AFR if using a B3601 of 14.63.

F.Y.I. its only ~ a 2% difference from 12.5-12.8 if dealing with AFR. Thats actually pretty close.

Post up your Tune & Log. As long as you are doing everything 'right'..it actually sounds fairly close.

[WeathermanShawn]

commanded PE eq ratio is 14.67 (1.16 eq ratio) across the board.

Did you really mean to say that?

[loganlewis]

Well computer wasn't in front of me hold on I'm going to get my computer now so I can post log and tune up

[loganlewis]

I meant table b3618 is set to 1.16 all the way across. About to post up log and tune

[loganlewis]

the title of the tune the 8.1 part is just for when i put the injectors. its still a 4.8 dont worry lol

11377

11378

[WeathermanShawn]

Logan there still seems to be an issue with you mixing and matching serial wideband pids and Analog.

I can't see any SELBENS being logged..:confused:.

Can you please post your latest calc_pids.txt. If using Analog Wideband, you need to redefine your WO2BEN.

[loganlewis]

My computer shows selbens being logged? When you go to the pid or data list scroll down I have 26 channels open. The 5th pid down shows BEN from analog WB. I still have the same calc.pid list that made for me earlier in this thread. Unmodified

[loganlewis]

If your referring to the 17th PID down, WO2LAM1 serial, it was taking out of my pid list and instead used w02ben. The last two PIDs at the bottom are wideband afr 1 - plx afr and wideband afr 1 - Plx VOlts

[WeathermanShawn]

I think I found your correct calc_pids.txt file on Page 4 of this thread.

I don't see the problem. Those SELBENS are nearly perfect. At worst they are 2% off. Thats very good. leaning it up another 2% while possible, won't give you any more power.

IMO, your Tune & Log look real good.

[loganlewis]

My selben table shows data that is 0.99-1.02 give or take. No 2s. I have turned my computer off for the evening Shawn. I'll post up my calc.pids and a screenshot of my selbens screenshot tomorrow a.m.

[loganlewis]

Shawn I appreciate you taking time to help me with this. I spent a lot if time hand blending tables. So my ve and MAF tables look good then. I'm going to change plugs and hit a 100 shot. My max timing at WOT is 18* as i Havnt messed with it a whole lot. Joecar told me I should consider upgrading to cos5 to spray but I'm leary on trying to have to set that tune up

[joecar]

Hi Shawn,

Logan's calc_pids.txt file is in post #69 calc_pids.txt (http://forum.efilive.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11244&d=1309271248) is this the one you're referring to...?

After you load his log file, you can select SELBEN and any other calc pid

(his WO2BEN uses AFR_PLX1/14.65).

[WeathermanShawn]

I found it Joe.

Post # 115 contains his SELBENS via the PLX.

His Tune & log look real good.

[joecar]

Yes, they look quite good.

[loganlewis]

Can you guys help me on where I need to add timing at for n/a? I want to shoot a 100 shot tomorrow night at the track. Not spraying through shifts, gonna spray from 3000-5500. Max timing only hits 17.5-18 degrees right now is that safe enough for a 100 shot?

On a side note, I read that it's not safe to spray before 3000rpms. But... I see alot if people spray off the line and can cut 1.7-2.0 60ft times. How come they can spray off the line? Is there some way they set their trucks up for it or just taking a chance?

[WeathermanShawn]

Usually for spark I recommend a Dyno. You can tune for street by doing it 'old school'. No KR -2 degrees, but for track and especially spray..a dyno is worth the bucks.

N/A timing depends on heads, cam, CR. My heads are 11:0.1 CR, and I run about 22-25 degrees max. A lot of the LS1 heads can take 26-28 degrees.

As far as Spray..I am not a lot of help. There was one other forum member who had some pretty bad luck spraying from the line. I am sure you can find his thread if that helps.

My final recommendation is to to tune spark on the dyno if possible.

Good luck.

[joecar]

It depends on various things, you will not need much timing because a nitrous burn proceeds quicker than a gasoline burn; make sure AFR is sufficiently rich and make sure the RPM's are up (to avoid spraying while bogging/lugging), but I'm not an expert... you might ask on LS1tech.

[WeathermanShawn]

The worst thing is, now at wide open the afr is staying between 12.2-12.5 after doing it about 5 times I gave up. In the wide open cells the counts were over 50. commanded PE eq ratio is 14.67 (1.16 eq ratio) across the board.

Does anybody have any ideas on why I can't hit 12.8-13.0 like I was?

LL, I just noticed you still have B0701 Catalytic Converter Protection Enabled. You need to change that to Disabled. That is causing your AFR to be way too rich (EQ=1.25)!