EFI Live T43 Shift Time tune strategy

[mowton]

As I use both of the top 2 tuning tools :), Wondering what the programming strategy is for the EFI Live T43 tuning of A6 Shift times. In the "other" tool, you get several layered timing adjustments as well as the ability to modify the various Normal/Performance values and Down shifts. EFILive seems to only give you a base value for 2009 and earlier and in all cases only a single table to adjust shift times? Are the other shift times (Performance A/B, Downshifts etc) "calculated" (hardcoded) based on the single table? If so, does any one know what the interelationships are between the table and the "hidden" parameter to offer better understanding into the values used in the single table.

Thank you and look forward to your responses.

[mowton]

34 views ....no replies :(

[TBMSport]

Good luck getting an answer. Either no one knows or no one is sharing. Simply because I took the plunge and had my own two trucks converted to A6 (6L80 and 90 using 3 different model year OS's between them, I have the advantage of tweaking this and that to monitor a difference, if any, that changes make. My conclusion....only a ZF knows what the hell these calibrations actually do and how they work with one another. I've spoken with GM calibrators, tuners, and other alleged experts and everyone simply holds one or two pieces to the puzzle. The calculations and algorithms that these new CAN Bus systems has is truly immeasurable. I'm talking measurements and calculations to the .00001+ level. So to bring what we traditionally are used to in terms of 'tuning' up to these levels would require a a significant mathematical background AND extensive understanding of how an entire powertrain system works.

The reason I love EFILive is that they give us raw access to these tables, rather than "compressed" tuning of say HPT. The reason I hate EFILive is because only a handful of people on this earth understand how to use these tables and they are not accessible or interested in our petty performance issues. You have to understand that most of the tables that we have access to via EFILive are not necessarily because the programmers build performance cars and determined that this is what we need to make our vehicles perform better, but rather because they are computer programmers who are responding to the outcry of the tuners who use the software and claim that is needed.

That all said, my experience in cross matching engine/trans OS, model years and vehicle platforms has shown me that some parameters have greater significance depending on the combination of components and vehicle platform. More applicable to your question, there are no simple guidelines or explanations of how the TCM tables that we have access to interacts with any other given table. You will have to do the trial and error thing like the rest of us....or at least specify your question and objectives and hope that someone out there has done it already with great success.

[gmh308]

34 views ....no replies :(

Whats the point of the question? Does the "other" tool give the same window into the ECM that EFILive does?

Cheerz :)

[mowton]

The question is based on one tool providing more tables (functions/control) for the A6 Shift timing and I was wondering if EFILive "bakes in" the control of the other parameters like Performance mode and Down shifting timings. If so, what are they so I can understand how setting the one table in EFILive effects the full operational capabilities of the TCM/Tranny.

As far as do they provide the same tables, the answer is no, but it isn't like one gives you access to MAF and VE while the other only VE.

Ed M

[gmh308]

The question is based on one tool providing more tables (functions/control) for the A6 Shift timing and I was wondering if EFILive "bakes in" the control of the other parameters like Performance mode and Down shifting timings. If so, what are they so I can understand how setting the one table in EFILive effects the full operational capabilities of the TCM/Tranny.

As far as do they provide the same tables, the answer is no, but it isn't like one gives you access to MAF and VE while the other only VE.

Ed M

Apart from Virtual VE in the ECM which does "bake in" conversion to/from coefficients/VVE surface, would guess its WYSIWYG in the T43. :)

[TBMSport]

Apart from Virtual VE in the ECM which does "bake in" conversion to/from coefficients/VVE surface, would guess its WYSIWYG in the T43. :)

Precisely. As I've been told and since confirmed, get your ECM tuned perfectly bc the T43 makes split second decisions on what the ECM is or about to do.

[mowton]

I am confused with your repsonses as it doesn't tell me what I asked nor seem to be relative? I understand things like TPS%, Torque, RPM etc will "assist" the TCM in its calculations and controil. But that still doesn't help in understanding how the EFILive TCM file, when flashed, programs the TCM relative to say Closed Throttle Down Shift or Performance mode 1-2 upshift timing. That is my question and what I am seeking.......

Ed M

[TBMSport]

Ahh...I THINK I understand what you're asking. No one table is a central hub or reference from a calculation. The TCM looks at several tables in an (relative) instance to constantly double check its decision based upon the request given. Exact what are all the tables, what order does the program reference them, and what weight/priority is given to each table...I have NO clue. Again...I think only ZF knows this. Is the TP at the correct WOT percentage value, are the RPMs and Speed at the appropriate table values, has the TCM learned a new shift adaptation based on clutch wear, let alone what the air flow values in the ECM are indicating. I can tell you that if any of those values are off, the trans will hesitate.

I personally am still trying to figure out what Pattern A, B, C mean and how they are referenced. Not to mention what Cruise, Trailer, Warm Up, etc do.

[turbo_bu]

mowton,

Do you know if the other tool happens to have the ability to show what the adaptive cells are doing? I have played with the LS1 PCM and tried to out think what it's doing by watching and logging the trans data, but only kinda got it figured out. Some of the things that I wished I could see were how the torque channel was calculated (it appears that this is what had a significant impact on the shifts) and what the TAP cells were. Thus you could start off with the adaptive cells at zero and watch them move based on the tune in the PCM.

For what it's worth, similar questions have been raised regarding the Allison TCM's as well and the ability to try and "figure them out". So far, not too many people seem to know ... or are sharing ...

[mowton]

mowton,

Do you know if the other tool happens to have the ability to show what the adaptive cells are doing? I have played with the LS1 PCM and tried to out think what it's doing by watching and logging the trans data, but only kinda got it figured out. Some of the things that I wished I could see were how the torque channel was calculated (it appears that this is what had a significant impact on the shifts) and what the TAP cells were. Thus you could start off with the adaptive cells at zero and watch them move based on the tune in the PCM.

For what it's worth, similar questions have been raised regarding the Allison TCM's as well and the ability to try and "figure them out". So far, not too many people seem to know ... or are sharing ...

turbo_bu et al,

I haven't been able to work on this but what I can tell you (and anyone else interested) is that when you tune via the EFILive tuning software (Normal up-shift time), and pull the file with the "other" software, only the Normal Upshift Timing tables were changed, all others (up-shift special, down shift, down shift special) remain stock. So per above, I quess WYSIWYG :(, unless I am missing something?

I have scanned the normal TCC parameters, shift times etc. I will be in the shop on Friday and hook up to a car to see the exact parameters in the scan library.

Ed M

[gmh308]

mowton,

Do you know if the other tool happens to have the ability to show what the adaptive cells are doing? I have played with the LS1 PCM and tried to out think what it's doing by watching and logging the trans data, but only kinda got it figured out. Some of the things that I wished I could see were how the torque channel was calculated (it appears that this is what had a significant impact on the shifts) and what the TAP cells were. Thus you could start off with the adaptive cells at zero and watch them move based on the tune in the PCM.

For what it's worth, similar questions have been raised regarding the Allison TCM's as well and the ability to try and "figure them out". So far, not too many people seem to know ... or are sharing ...

EFILive can scan these PID's in the Allison trans - maybe they are available in the T43 but just not included...

TSTATE14 [2] Upshift Adaptive Shift Converge Flags for Pattern 0
P056R2 Pattern 0 - 5-6 Adapt Region 2 (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P056R1 Pattern 0 - 5-6 Adapt Region 1 (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P056R0 Pattern 0 - 5-6 Adapt Region 0 (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P045R2 Pattern 0 - 4-5 Adapt Region 2 (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P045R1 Pattern 0 - 4-5 Adapt Region 1 (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P045R0 Pattern 0 - 4-5 Adapt Region 0 (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P034R2 Pattern 0 - 3-4 Adapt Region 2 (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P034R1 Pattern 0 - 3-4 Adapt Region 1 (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P034R0 Pattern 0 - 3-4 Adapt Region 0 (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P023R2 Pattern 0 - 2-3 Adapt Region 2 (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P023R1 Pattern 0 - 2-3 Adapt Region 1 (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P023R0 Pattern 0 - 2-3 Adapt Region 0 (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P012R2 Pattern 0 - 1-2 Adapt Region 2 (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P012R1 Pattern 0 - 1-2 Adapt Region 1 (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P012R0 Pattern 0 - 1-2 Adapt Region 0 (NotCnvrg,Convrged)

TSTATE15 [4] Downshift Adaptive Shift Converge Flags for Pattern 0
P065PS Pattern 0 - 6-5 Adapt Preselect (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P065CT Pattern 0 - 6-5 Adapt Closed Throttle (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P065ST Pattern 0 - 6-5 Adapt Step-Through (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P065PT Pattern 0 - 6-5 Adapt Part Throttle (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P065FT Pattern 0 - 6-5 Adapt Full Throttle (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P054PS Pattern 0 - 5-4 Adapt Preselect (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P054CT Pattern 0 - 5-4 Adapt Closed Throttle (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P054ST Pattern 0 - 5-4 Adapt Step-Through (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P054PT Pattern 0 - 5-4 Adapt Part Throttle (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P054FT Pattern 0 - 5-4 Adapt Full Throttle (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P043PS Pattern 0 - 4-3 Adapt Preselect (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P043CT Pattern 0 - 4-3 Adapt Closed Throttle (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P043ST Pattern 0 - 4-3 Adapt Step-Through (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P043PT Pattern 0 - 4-3 Adapt Part Throttle (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P043FT Pattern 0 - 4-3 Adapt Full Throttle (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P032PS Pattern 0 - 3-2 Adapt Preselect (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P032CT Pattern 0 - 3-2 Adapt Closed Throttle (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P032ST Pattern 0 - 3-2 Adapt Step-Through (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P032PT Pattern 0 - 3-2 Adapt Part Throttle (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P032FT Pattern 0 - 3-2 Adapt Full Throttle (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P021PS Pattern 0 - 2-1 Adapt Preselect (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P021CT Pattern 0 - 2-1 Adapt Closed Throttle (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P021ST Pattern 0 - 2-1 Adapt Step-Through (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P021PT Pattern 0 - 2-1 Adapt Part Throttle (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P021FT Pattern 0 - 2-1 Adapt Full Throttle (NotCnvrg,Convrged)

TSTATE16 [1] Garage Shift Adaptive Shift Converge Flags for Pattern 0
P0R2A Pattern 0 - N-R Adapt (Fast,Slow)
P0R1A Pattern 0 - N-1 Adapt (Fast,Slow)
P0DRA Pattern 0 - N-2 Adapt (Fast,Slow)
P0N2A Pattern 0 - D-R Adapt (Fast,Slow)
P0N1A Pattern 0 - R-1 Adapt (Fast,Slow)
P0NRA Pattern 0 - R-2 Adapt (Fast,Slow)

TSTATE17 [1] Upshift Adaptive Shift Converge Flags for Pattern 1
P156R2 Pattern 1 - 5-6 Adapt Region 2 (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P156R1 Pattern 1 - 5-6 Adapt Region 1 (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P156R0 Pattern 1 - 5-6 Adapt Region 0 (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P145R2 Pattern 1 - 4-5 Adapt Region 2 (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P145R1 Pattern 1 - 4-5 Adapt Region 1 (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P145R0 Pattern 1 - 4-5 Adapt Region 0 (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P134R2 Pattern 1 - 3-4 Adapt Region 2 (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P134R1 Pattern 1 - 3-4 Adapt Region 1 (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P134R0 Pattern 1 - 3-4 Adapt Region 0 (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P123R2 Pattern 1 - 2-3 Adapt Region 2 (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P123R1 Pattern 1 - 2-3 Adapt Region 1 (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P123R0 Pattern 1 - 2-3 Adapt Region 0 (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P112R2 Pattern 1 - 1-2 Adapt Region 2 (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P112R1 Pattern 1 - 1-2 Adapt Region 1 (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P112R0 Pattern 1 - 1-2 Adapt Region 0 (NotCnvrg,Convrged)

TSTATE19 [1] Downshift Adaptive Shift Converge Flags for Pattern 1
P165PS Pattern 1 - 6-5 Adapt Preselect (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P165CT Pattern 1 - 6-5 Adapt Closed Throttle (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P165ST Pattern 1 - 6-5 Adapt Step-Through (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P165PT Pattern 1 - 6-5 Adapt Part Throttle (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P165FT Pattern 1 - 6-5 Adapt Full Throttle (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P154PS Pattern 1 - 5-4 Adapt Preselect (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P154CT Pattern 1 - 5-4 Adapt Closed Throttle (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P154ST Pattern 1 - 5-4 Adapt Step-Through (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P154PT Pattern 1 - 5-4 Adapt Part Throttle (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P154FT Pattern 1 - 5-4 Adapt Full Throttle (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P143PS Pattern 1 - 4-3 Adapt Preselect (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P143CT Pattern 1 - 4-3 Adapt Closed Throttle (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P143ST Pattern 1 - 4-3 Adapt Step-Through (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P143PT Pattern 1 - 4-3 Adapt Part Throttle (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P143FT Pattern 1 - 4-3 Adapt Full Throttle (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P132PS Pattern 1 - 3-2 Adapt Preselect (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P132CT Pattern 1 - 3-2 Adapt Closed Throttle (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P132ST Pattern 1 - 3-2 Adapt Step-Through (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P132PT Pattern 1 - 3-2 Adapt Part Throttle (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P132FT Pattern 1 - 3-2 Adapt Full Throttle (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P121PS Pattern 1 - 2-1 Adapt Preselect (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P121CT Pattern 1 - 2-1 Adapt Closed Throttle (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P121ST Pattern 1 - 2-1 Adapt Step-Through (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P121PT Pattern 1 - 2-1 Adapt Part Throttle (NotCnvrg,Convrged)
P121FT Pattern 1 - 2-1 Adapt Full Throttle (NotCnvrg,Convrged)

Paul, Ross, are these available in T43?

And there is also a PID on some trans controllers that shows values from adapt cells. Like mowton mentioned, it would be great to get visibility into T43 adapt/learning so you knew whether you were tuning a fully learned trans, or a yet to complete learn cycle.

ADAPTCELL [1] Adaptive Shift Cell Number (Count)

Incidentally the torque number is calculated in the ECM based on an MBT map that GM sets up on the dyno. It gets transmitted to the trans on the CAN.

FWIW... :)

[joecar]

turbo_bu et al,

I haven't been able to work on this but what I can tell you (and anyone else interested) is that when you tune via the EFILive tuning software (Normal up-shift time), and pull the file with the "other" software, only the Normal Upshift Timing tables were changed, all others (up-shift special, down shift, down shift special) remain stock. So per above, I quess WYSIWYG :(, unless I am missing something?

I have scanned the normal TCC parameters, shift times etc. I will be in the shop on Friday and hook up to a car to see the exact parameters in the scan library.

Ed MHi Ed,

AFAIK the EFILive tunetool is WYSIWYG except where noted (like the VVE tables).

[mowton]

Hi Ed,

AFAIK the EFILive tunetool is WYSIWYG except where noted (like the VVE tables).

Joe, Hi back at you....based on my expereince above, have to agree with you. Wonder why that is?....oh well there are pluses and minues for both software packages so using both gives you the best of both worlds.

Have a great weekend

Ed M

[turbo_bu]

gmh308,

Those PID's appear to only be in the 6 speed Allison ... not the 5 speed.

Do we know if something like those are available for any of the other GM transmissions? Example 4L80E in the LS1 PCM? Maybe just the newer TCM's have those for viewing?

[joecar]

No, the 4L80E/4L60E LS1 pids only go up to TSTATE12.

[mowton]

1135811356
mowton,

Do you know if the other tool happens to have the ability to show what the adaptive cells are doing? I have played with the LS1 PCM and tried to out think what it's doing by watching and logging the trans data, but only kinda got it figured out. Some of the things that I wished I could see were how the torque channel was calculated (it appears that this is what had a significant impact on the shifts) and what the TAP cells were. Thus you could start off with the adaptive cells at zero and watch them move based on the tune in the PCM.

For what it's worth, similar questions have been raised regarding the Allison TCM's as well and the ability to try and "figure them out". So far, not too many people seem to know ... or are sharing ...

Turbo_bu,

Here are the Supported PIDS for a 2007 A6 Corvette.........

[zbadestz]

Anymore info on this?

[slowhawk]

I pretty much get what your saying, There is a serious lack of tuning adjustments with this software for T43 transmissions.
I completely agree. My 11 Camaro has no means to do anything with TM.Frigging thing pulls out stupid amounts of timing on shifts.You can band aid it with tuning but not hit the spots you need to. Add a high stall converter and it turns into complete crap.

Hopefully SOON this will be adressed.

[Longslyde]

I pretty much get what your saying, There is a serious lack of tuning adjustments with this software for T43 transmissions.
I completely agree. My 11 Camaro has no means to do anything with TM.Frigging thing pulls out stupid amounts of timing on shifts.You can band aid it with tuning but not hit the spots you need to. Add a high stall converter and it turns into complete crap.

Hopefully SOON this will be adressed.

I feel your pain slowhawk, I got a 2010 GMC Sierra with Blower and Built 2500 stall 6l80e and this thing is giving me headaches. I too feel that there aren't enough tuning adjustments for the T43. There isn't even a base shift timing table in the software that I can find. Only Input torque modifiers, and those have to go off of a base timing I would figure. I've been messing with this transmission for a month now and it still isn't right. I'm so sick of intermittent shift flare, slow shifts, bang shifts, DELAYED bang shifts. I'm convinced the stall is messing with the load tables just not positive on how to overcome that. If I could see Base Shift Timing tables at the very least, I might get somewhere faster.
So amen to better T43 tuning adjustments SOOOOON! :rockon: