09 G8 GXP Twin Turbo, 65lb Injectors, Zr1 MAP, Speed Density. Help?

[Cody@LoveFab]

Hey guys,

This is my first EFILIVE experience. What a learning curve!

I have been tuning with a wide variety of AEM products since 2004 with great success on a multitude of vehicles. I was just beginning to consider myself a decent tuner. EFI Live has humbled that thought to say the least.

Where to start?

First, setup.

Stock LS3 in 2009 G8 GXP
6L80 Trans
65lb/hr Precision Injectors
ZR1 MAP sensor
AEM UEGO
Twin 58/62mm Precision chargers
No MAF as I have always tuned SD with AEM products.

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/264643_183184335067945_146390618747317_442320_8296 723_n.jpg
http://tapatalk.com/mu/611e3d78-88f6-b653.jpg
http://tapatalk.com/mu/61b26012-0877-b231.jpg
http://tapatalk.com/mu/61b26012-0844-8a4e.jpg

Problems:

I can't get a Custom OS to populate the "Upgrade OS" table. I have followed the sticky instructions multiple times, plugged, unplugged Flashscan2, tried over and over. Nothing shows up in the CustomOS tab. This has me concerned. Ideas? I hope its me doing something incorrectly.

Where I'm at thus far:

Since I cannot load a COS, I decided to move forward.

I have followed the VVE setup Tutorial and now have a good IAT reading. I have also scaled the MAP according to values I have found online.
The car starts great, runs pretty well. I have not driven it. I have found a few different charts to compute these values, but they spit out different values. Which do I use and trust?

What I'm struggling with is that I can't "see" where the engine is running at in specific maps that I'm viewing. Something is missing as I can't Upgrade 0S, nor can I "track the linked scan tool" in the Tune software.

This is a general plea for help. I really wanted to learn this tuning platform for future endeavors, but bills need paying, and I don't want to make costly mistakes on a customer's vehicle.

Tune currently loaded into vehicle:

11280

[ScarabEpic22]

OK, first off only the LS1B PCMs and E40 ECM for the gassers need to run a COS for boost. The E38/E67s are just fine using the factory OS, the only reason to go with a COS is for running dual fuel or N2O. You simply need to use the 2 or 3 Bar VVE table instead of the 1 Bar VVE table. It will recalculate the coefficients and let you run boost just fine.

If the linked tables dont work, then you need to edit the correct .txt file (unfortunately I reformatted my laptop last wed and didnt install EFILive before I went on vacation and am using my phone for slow internet so I dont know exactly what file it is).

Why are you anti-MAF? It is a very good instrument for measuring airflow, unless you are outflowing it (doubtful on a stock engine) it should give better results than pure SD.

[Cody@LoveFab]

Thanks for your fast response on a Holiday weekend!!!

Thank you for also confirming the VVE tables that I need. You confirmed that everything I had read pointed to the 2bar and 3bar tables. I am assuming that primary timing is still adjusted via the Spark "High Octane Spark Table" ? Would I just copy and past the values into the low octane tables as well? Or will the low octane tables actually be beneficial?

Finally, the "Injector Flow Base" Table values are not what any calculator online spit out. They are what enabled the car to start and idle at a decent AFR. Now that I know I'm tuning off of the 2b/3b VVE tables, I assume I would input more "proper" Injector Flow Base values, and then pull fuel out from the main table?

I decided to ditch the MAF because I have always ditched them as practice. Most of them either ran MAP stock, or had tiny MAFs to begin with(my tuning experience is mostly Import related). I built the turbo setup around running maffless. It can be redone to accomodate the MAF again, but will cost me a lot of time to change everything around(12 hours or so).

[Cody@LoveFab]

Took the car for a drive last night. Seeing/feeling the differences in tweaking with the tables really helps.

One of the main issues that I think I may have a beat on is that no matter now much fuel I had added to the 3bar table, the car would still stay ~14:1 in boost(less than 2psi, peddling it). I have since disabled Long Term Trims via B1510, as I'm pretty sure the 02s were pulling fuel. I'm testing this out shortly.

[Cody@LoveFab]

Car is going into a reduced power mode. It pulls -25 degrees of timing at anything above 100kPa. For kicks, I copied and pasted b5101 into b5157. Whoah, got power back!! Luckily I had plenty of fuel. However, this doesn't feel like the "right" way to go about it, I have to find out why the car is in a reduced power mode.

It has to be related to the speed density conversion(or lack thereof). Any thoughts?

[slows10]

No expert here, but I dont see a log with some of your issues posted. You might get some more help if you posted one up.

[gmh308]

You still have torque management in full operation. Any knock causing this?

[slows10]

Also im not sure you can just expect to use 2 or 3 bar ve tables just because they are there. wouldnt you have to enable it first? It is not a factory boosted car is it? Might have to enable B8028.

[Cody@LoveFab]

Thanks guys!

I wasnt sure if I should completely disable torque management. Anything to keep the actual spark table where it should be operational would make my life a lot easier. As far as knock, I'm having a hard time trying to figure out where the timing actually IS right now. With so many background trims, how am I supposed to know? lol. I took a best guess...it seems to be low.

The B8020 Table looks like it's spot-on!!! I kept running out of fuel at 4000rpm. Makes sense, as thats all that the RPM read up to. In the file I attached below, I had already made changes and saved them.

Also, the most recent log. I had added fuel to cure the 4000rpm leanout(therefore its now rich), but she still leans out. It will probably cure itself after the above changes. I finally cracked a beer for the 4th, no more datalogging tonight. Thank you guys for the help. The car is getting to be very fast. Baby Steps....

1129511296

[ScarabEpic22]

First off, NO to the copying high and low ocatane tables!! Big no-no, it is ok when you have it strapped to a dyno and are figuring out the best spark values, but I usually take my high octane table and pull anywhere from 4-6* out of it and use that as a baseline low octane table for street driving. That way the knock sensors can do their job and also it helps compensate a little for bad gas.

What are you using for your IFR, should be using the info that came with your injectors. That should be "known" data (hopefully!), then you tune according to them. Trying to fudge IFR usually ends up with a lot of wasted energy and time, set it correctly then the rest of the fueling should be a lot easier to dial in.

Why are you only running like 8* of timing? From the other FI LSx motors Ive seen they usually run 14-18*. Also you're running 10.5:1, seems a little rich for a FI motor to me (thought most are closer to 11:1), but use whatever the engine likes for power!

Looks like ~4400rpms is when it started leaning out, by 4700 you're running 11.5:1, at 5000 its up to 12:1. Hmmm, are you running out of injector then? (Log injector duty cycle, not in that log) Or is the fuel pump not able to feed the injectors at those RPMs?

[Cody@LoveFab]

Oh, I've already wasted days in trying to just learn my way through EFILIVE. In the AEM systems I've tuned, there are "wizards" that run you through everything. I took those for granted as leapfrogging through hundreds of tables setting things up takes forever!!!

IFR...I have no solid data on these specific injectors, which are high impedence Precision 65lb/hr units. I used a best-guess approach. I have seen some calculators out there, but you make it sound as if the manufacturer should supply these numbers?

FYI, my base fuel pressure is set to 50psi. Walbro's don't flow well at higher pressures so I figured I would leave some room for the FPR to bump up another ~10psi with boost pressure. Thank you for advice on high/low octane spark tables. I have pulled 5 degrees globally from the low octane table.

Finally, timing. I want somewhere around 15 degrees at 8 psi(assuming knock is in check). I can't get UP anywhere near that. See log below. This was early on, during one of my first drives. No WB02 on this one(couldn't get it working yet)...it was rich though.

11299

A background table(s) is REALLY pulling timing; it approaches -20 degrees! Nowhere in the General high/low octane tables is the value anywhere near here. The problem is, I don't know which tables are pulling so much timing, therefore I don't know which to log. Burst knock? Torque Management?

How did I get UP to 8 degrees? By raising the minimum tables, B5157 and by B5144. Those values(were set at 10 degrees) is about where my timing was ending up under boost. I have replaced stock graphs and values, back to -25 as the transmission shifts terribly(doggy).

What PIDs am I going to want to add for datalogging so you guys can better assist?

Inj Duty - to monitor fuel pump.

What else?

I cant stress how thankful I am for your guys help!! Once I'm profficient at EFILIVE, I will be on here daily passing on my knowledge to others.

[joecar]

Does your FPR use manifold/boost/vacuum referencing...? If it does then your IFR table B4001 is wrong.


The GM ECM is a very complex and busy entity... it performs many simultaneous functions (e.g. calculates combustion chamber temperature and catalytic converter temperature and applies protection as required, it does that while counting CKP/CMP pulses, calculating airmass/fuelmass, advancing ignition, and reading/writing data from/to the TCM and other modules)... very busy compared to aftermarket controllers... the GM ECM can't be compared to aftermarket controllers (Space Shuttle vs Cessna).

:)

[Cody@LoveFab]

Thanks joecar! Obviously, this is a complex system.

Yes, I'm referencing boost on the FPR. What should my IFR table look like? Decreasing values based on MAP?

Here is a log I just took. I reinstated the minimum spark tables. AFRs are rich, but I would rather have them rich at this point as a buffer.

Based on my High/Low Octane tables without any background influence, I should be no lower than 10 degrees. Its almost -10.

It feels like the car goes into a "limp mode" under boost. What other tables influence spark during SD tuning?

[joecar]

For MAP-reference FPR, the IFR table should be flat (same value in all cells) since the FRP will keep pressure difference across an injector constant as MAP varies (i.e. the MAP reference causes MAP to be cancelled out)...

i.e. pressure above injector = FP + MAP; pressure below injector = MAP; difference = FP; therefore IFR is constant (single valued).

[joecar]

There are MAP/MAF/ETC sanity check tables, when these are exceeded you get reduced engine power mode of which I know very little.

[Cody@LoveFab]

I think you may have found my issue!

*Thinking aloud warning*

The spark tables only go to 1.2g/s. I'm pretty sure at 8psi, I'm WELL above that. Therefore, the timing table is totally bottoming out, and the said "sanity check tables" are catching this, and throwing the car into "limp mode" of sorts.

You can scale the spark tables up to 8g/s, the only question is, I'm unsure how much air is in the motor at 170 kPa; or at 256kPa. I know there is a formula out there, I just haven't found it yet. Since I'm tuning the 3bar VVE table, I assume I would want the Spark table to match the potential airflow at 256kPa? This way the spark table matches closely with kPa?

So. Much. "Stuff. Getting closer...

[Cody@LoveFab]

There are MAP/MAF/ETC sanity check tables, when these are exceeded you get reduced engine power mode of which I know very little.

I do know that you can control the timing of the engine in "reduced power mode". When I put that table at 10 degrees(instead of -25 for default), I had power. Otherwise, the timing seems to go completely negative down to whatever value is in the Max Retard table(B5153).

[Tre-Cool]

I think you may have found my issue!

*Thinking aloud warning*

The spark tables only go to 1.2g/s. I'm pretty sure at 8psi, I'm WELL above that. Therefore, the timing table is totally bottoming out, and the said "sanity check tables" are catching this, and throwing the car into "limp mode" of sorts.

You can scale the spark tables up to 8g/s, the only question is, I'm unsure how much air is in the motor at 170 kPa; or at 256kPa. I know there is a formula out there, I just haven't found it yet. Since I'm tuning the 3bar VVE table, I assume I would want the Spark table to match the potential airflow at 256kPa? This way the spark table matches closely with kPa?

So. Much. "Stuff. Getting closer...

your not getting a limp error due to the high g/cyl values. i can exceed the factory tables by alot! it's calculated off the fuel map numbers.

attached is an old tune i did for my brother's twin turbo VE commodore. it has 2871r's, 212/212 cam, 2bar map, 60lbs injectors

11307

[Cody@LoveFab]

Looking at it now, thank you.

[Cody@LoveFab]

Torque Control!!! I know it was mentioned earlier in this thread, but I wasn't sure how to disable it. Thanks to Tre-Cool's tun file, I was able to figure it out and I NOW HAVE TIMING!!!! Thanks a ton guys!! I have learned SOOO much in the past week its rediculous.

[gmh308]

I think you may have found my issue!

*Thinking aloud warning*

The spark tables only go to 1.2g/s. I'm pretty sure at 8psi, I'm WELL above that. Therefore, the timing table is totally bottoming out, and the said "sanity check tables" are catching this, and throwing the car into "limp mode" of sorts.

You can scale the spark tables up to 8g/s, the only question is, I'm unsure how much air is in the motor at 170 kPa; or at 256kPa. I know there is a formula out there, I just haven't found it yet. Since I'm tuning the 3bar VVE table, I assume I would want the Spark table to match the potential airflow at 256kPa? This way the spark table matches closely with kPa?

So. Much. "Stuff. Getting closer...

You dont need a formula to calculate cylinder air. It is a loggable parameter. It can be calculated though by MAF*15/rpm.