Idle Problem and more

[etmotorsports]

I have been running this tune in this car for months, updated software and had to install a TCM module tuned the tranny left the ECM alone not car will idle just fine, turn it off and restart it won't idle a/f fuel goes so lean 18:1 it will hardly idle and if you give it gas it almost dies and will die in gear. IF you let the car sit for about 4-7 minutes it starts up again idles and all is good with the a/f. I have upgraded to the newest firmware and software other than that the ecm tune is the same tune. I Even installed the stock tranny tune again. Anyone have and ideas as to what might be causing this. Here is the tune it is mafless, i might be missing something in the idle tuning but i don't see how it goes from fine to won't run just with a key cycle.

11372

[swingtan]

A log would also help.....

I'm going to guess that it's not a straight "key off / key on" issue but more like a 5 min turn off, then a restart.

What I think is happening is that the fueling is going off as the IVT drops. Normally you would expect IVT to be in the 130'C to 170'C range, but once the engine is turned off, the IVT drops quickly to ECT. That's nearly half the normal running temps. Once started again it takes 3 min to 5 min for the IVT to come back up to normal temps unless you have some load on the motor ( driving it rather than just idling ).

I'm thinking that if you log IVT on the hot restart, you'll see the AFR's reacting with the IVT, as IVT rises, AFR's start to richen.

Simon.

[etmotorsports]

I thought it had something to do with IVT too i watched it while it was running and restarting, Yes after you leave it key off for a few minutes it idles find and a/f is normal. What tables would affect that i only know of one?

[swingtan]

I'd want to look at a log, but it may be the dynamics if AFR's are leaning out a huge amount. I think there was an after start "heat soak" table as well, but maybe I'm thinking LS1.

Simon

[etmotorsports]

Here is a quick log and a file i tried while this log was in the car. I put the ivt and air temp tables and 1.0 and still the same result won't run on restart.

11379
11380

[swingtan]

There's no WB data there :(

From what I can see though.....


You seem to be commanding a rather large amount of cranking airflow. This is causing the surge at firing to push the RPM up to 1700. When hot I'd guess you could be running half the initial cranking air, maybe even 1/3rd of what you have set. This may be causing an over reaction as the ECM tries to manage the surge.
You have zeroed out all your idle airflow correction tables. In the drag car, this is possibly OK but it won't help a lot if you have a daily driver, especially not if it's manual. I'd return some Integral correction to help with idle control


This may help, but some WB data would be good.

Simon

[etmotorsports]

Yeah i don't have it hooked to the laptop just one in the car there it is simple it idles at 13.5:1 at 1st and on restart it shows 18:1 but it smells like fuel odd. I have not played with the cranking air flow as you were talking about that was done somewhere else but i will take a look that makes sense what you are saying.

[swingtan]

Oh, I just thought of something. Have you tried logging LTFT's ? Try it, just to confirm they are not coming in to play.

Simon

[etmotorsports]

I will try can't hurt

[etmotorsports]

No sign of LTFT or STFT here is a log and the tune used on the log, no mater what i change it seems to act the same, flash cranks and starts idles fine a/f 13.5:1 turn off crank starts for a few seconds a/f is 18:1. If i turn the key of for about 1 min it will start and act just fine, if you try to restart right away it does the same things that is in the log i might need to see some different pids but not sure what is going on for which ones to look at. I am lost something with the ecm or engine is all i can figure now take a look let me know what you all think.11391
11392

[swingtan]

OK, a few other things that may help.


You are running around 25gm/S of idle air flow. This is massive and leads me to think that you have either drilled a hole in the TB blade or it's a result of the idle airflow correction tables being zeroed out. The average commanded spark advance is only 9.9' while the commanded in the tune is 13'. This also indicates the engine is getting way too much air at idle. The commanded idle air is only about 7gm/S, which is a bit low IMO, so I'm assumiong there is a 6mm hole in the TB blade.

Unless you have a lumpy cam in there, I wouldn't have a hole in the TB blade. I am assuming you have a couple of turbos, though these should not alter the required idle air by much.

The Idle spark correction is not going to help until the engine speed has gone too far off. Then it's going to add way too much timing in a single hit and probably cause over correction swings. Going from 0' correction to -12'/+15' correction in the space of 16RPM change is not going to help anything. Even at your quite stable idle settings, the spark is going from 0' to 14' in the space of one frame. Much too much change IMO

Idle Integral steps. I know that Hymey has run with these zeroed out, but I think that was on a very large cam, NA setup. I've never done this as I found it caused the idle to hang on deceleration and hunt badly unless everything else was absolutely perfect. I'd put some values back in there.

The lean idle is interesting, especially for a fast restart. Can you keep the restart going to a point it idles OK? I'm wondering how long the lean condition lasts for. Actually, I just looked at your VVE. It's pretty bad, that's putting it very nicely..... The VVE shows that the engine will be running really rich just before the stall, at a guess, going from the information at hand, I'd say you were getting about a 4:1 AFR as it stalls. No wonder it smells like fuel.



So basically, I think there is no one magic bullet here. I'd start with making the VVE a bit more sane, then move on to base idle air and then corrections. I'd probably guestimate the VVE for starters, pulling 10% of the 400 RPM to 1000 RPM cells over 55kPA MAP. Then use stock values in the base idle air, Integral steps and Idle spark correction. Then fine tune from there making small adjustments.

Simon

[etmotorsports]

There is a large cam in this car, as far as i know there is no hole in the throttle body, i zeroed out the corrections a while back to dial in the a/f at idle. Here is the odd part about this, the car ran and drove for about 2 months until the tranny broke, not put a new one in and it is doing this stuff. Granted it didn't drive great much better that it was on the maf tune when i got it. It would die now and then coming to a stop but no every time. Before i had a chance to work it out the tran blew. I agree with what you are saying the ve needs work and spark correction i noticed is not correct imo either. I actually leaned out the ve table where it was dieing and it didn't seem to help but i am gonna try that some and maybe it will lead somewhere. i am gonna smoke test it to for an intake leak i am wondering about that but i haven't touched any of that while doing the trans. Thanks for the opinion swing always helpful

[etmotorsports]

Swing where are you seeing the 25 g/s of idle air flow?

[swingtan]

I have a calc PID to get air flow "gm/S" from RPM and SD-gm/Cyl. It's showing that at idle, you are moving 25gm/S of air flow. This of course assumes that idle fueling is correct ( which I think it's a bit off, but not a huge amount ). I also used the IBPW to rational the fueling before the stall. At 1000 RPM, you had an IBPW of about 2.8 mS, then as the stall occurs and the RPM drops to say 200, the IBPW is still close to 2.8 mS. So I'm thinking it's flooding as the stall occurs and the ECM can't correct for that condition.

Simon

[etmotorsports]

OK i checked no holes in throttle body or vaccum leaks all is good there. I have changed the ve and other thing and i am sure that is the correct numbers when it is at idle. When i changed the ve to some more reasonable numbers at 73 kpa and 800-1500 rpms it seems to help a bit it will still die. Here is the million dollar question after a flash it starts up fine after shutting it off and starting again right away it acts this way i cannot find any tables that would make it fuel off of something else, i am at a loss i will post up the latest tune and log later

[swingtan]

Post the latest tun and log, I'll have a look.

[etmotorsports]

sorry had other things to fix some other broken cars, since this is one has a bad attitude it is on the back burner

Ok here are the latest logs and file from yesterday.

11397

11398

[swingtan]

OK, try this for starters. Please note that I simply had to mess with the VVE, it was really, really bad and I'm sure would have caused massive issues if it was taken out to the red line of a "big" camshaft. Of course, the changes I've made are pretty blind and could be just as bad. Run it up on the dyno with a WB in place and check the fueling. I don't think it could be any worse than the previous one though....

I've played with idle control, min idle air and cranking tables. All should help with the idle, but I think the kicker for this one is {B1847} and {B1848} which are new calibration tables with the latest update. They seems to control the idle speeds, just after starting and before the "default" idle speed settings are used. Hopefully I'm reading it correctly and the idle control should be better.

11404

Simon.

[etmotorsports]

Thank you swing, it looks way to lean to idle but i will gladly give it a try, and see. I am at such a loss on this car it is not even funny. The fact that you think it has way too much fuel at idle i am wondering if the injector calibration is right for what is in the car. I never checked that when i tuned it on the vve map. I was told there were 60lbs injector but i don't remember if i every actually ran the part number to see what they were.

If your tune still acts the same way i am thinking it is the ecm but i need to confirm that 1st before i spend the money thanks again i will let you know what happens

[etmotorsports]

0280158117 This is the part number of the injectors in the car shows to be a 52 lb/hr bosch injector. here is the table for the injector flow rate i am not familiar with the e38 i am not sure if this is right.

see next post messed up the copy paste

[etmotorsports]

LABELS Injector Flow Base (Grams/Second)
Delta MAP kPa Value
128 6.874511
148 7.098388
168 7.307861
188 7.504882
208 7.691894
228 7.869872
248 8.040527
268 8.204101
288 8.361816
308 8.514159
328 8.661620
348 8.804687
368 8.943603
388 9.078856
408 9.210692
428 9.339355
448 9.464843
468 9.587890
488 9.708007
508 9.825927
528 9.941405
548 10.054686
568 10.166015
588 10.275390
608 10.383056
628 10.488768
648 10.592772
658 10.695311
688 10.796386
708 10.895751
728 10.993895
748 11.090819
768 11.186278

[etmotorsports]

Thank you very much swing for the file unfortunatly it didn't let the car idle at all. I looked at other maps for the vve and i have never seen one that need this much fuel to idle. I am still stuck trying to figure this out i have confirmed it was fuel.

I loaded back the last tune that allows the car to idle on the initial crank, shut it off, had someone restarted it and soaked the air filter down with brake clean and it will idle as long as i am spraying the air filter with brake clean stop and the car dies. So it is defiantly fuel related or possibly with injector drive in the ecm.

[etmotorsports]

1 more thing that i don't see how but might be causeing something is while the trans was being rebuilt we installed some racing seats the connectors under the seats are unpluged any one have an idea if that causes an issue with any modules?

[swingtan]

The seat connector is probably the seatbelt pre-tensioner, so shouldn't bother the fueling. Here's another try, basically the same as before but with a VVE pretty much the same in the idle cells as the original. I also tried adding more fuel just after a hot start, using the injector temp table. Some WB data would really help though.

11410

[etmotorsports]

Found the problem its the update firmware or the new 7.5. Used a buddies old version works just fine.

[joecar]

Which build versions and which firmware version are you seeing the problem with...?

[etmotorsports]

I updated last week to the most recent I will post exactly what it is when I get back to my laptop and tuned

[etmotorsports]

the software is 7.5.7 build 170 firmware 2.07.14 bootblock 2.07.02

I used a friends efi that wasn't updated since feb or march he says and reflashed the same file and the restart issues went away complete just like the car was before i flashed it last week.

Is there a way to go back to another version to fix this for now?

[swingtan]

Now that is interesting. Did you remember to format the config file system in the V2 and reload all the config files after the update?

Simon

[etmotorsports]

That might be a problem I have never done that before please explain more

[swingtan]

Ahh, there's an interesting point. Whenever you update the firmware on the V2, you "should" format the config file system ( I use EFILive explorer to do this ) then reprogram the V2 using the BBL function in V8 Scan&Tune. The config filesystem holds all the script files and calibrations for the individual controllers and is very specific to the firmware version in the V2. Having these out of sync usually results in an error but I guess it's possible that something slipped through.

[etmotorsports]

OK i found the format config file using the explorer but i cannot find the bbl function

[swingtan]

In V8 Scan& Tune, select "BBX"......

[joecar]

Look at the pics in these links:

showthread.php?14351-BBL-PIDs-V2 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14351-BBL-PIDs-V2&p=128782&viewfull=1#post128782)
showthread.php?13841-What-is-BBL (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?13841-What-is-BBL)
showthread.php?13836-New-V2-help-find-exlporer (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?13836-New-V2-help-find-exlporer&p=123595&viewfull=1#post123595)
showthread.php?15492-V2-BBL-saving-log-data (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15492-V2-BBL-saving-log-data&p=136965#post136965)

[etmotorsports]

Have followed all of the other processes and will give it a try asap hopefully that is all the problem is.

[etmotorsports]

OK very stupid question you have to use ver 8 to do the configs but you cannot edit the tune using it am i correct?

[etmotorsports]

I have tried everything listed by joecar and swing. Still the same result on restart it dies if i flash it back with a unit that isn't updated it works just fine on restart. I am using 7.5 to flash and edit with that is all there is correct? I am lost what can be done?

[etmotorsports]

going to try and uninstall all efi programs and reinstall maybe that will work i am out of ideas

[swingtan]

Have you tried both a laptop flash and a BBF ? I wonder if one works and the other doesn't.

[etmotorsports]

What is a BBF? That is in the v8 software correct.

[etmotorsports]

On the v8.2 i cannot edit tunes or flash from what i have seen are you supposed to be able too

[swingtan]

I've never tried.....

I almost exclusively BBF and sometime use V7.5 from the laptop. Once I read a tune using V8, but have never tried flashing.

For BBF, I copy the *,ctd file to an SD card and then just use the menu system on the V2.

Simon

[etmotorsports]

I only flash from the laptop. Who else would know about fixing this problem i need to get this car to the track ASAP

[ScarabEpic22]

David, currently you need to use V7.5 to edit and scan, you can continue to read and flash PCM/ECMs with it but I would suggest starting to migrate that over to V8. To flash a PCM/ECM using V8, you need to open the existing .tun file in V7.5 then click File->Save As, then in the filetype select EFILive V8 .ctd. If the tune file is not saved as a .ctd, V8 cannot flash it. Hope this helps.

[etmotorsports]

Yes that help clear up about what the v8 is for, I need to find some reason why my unit all of a sudden cannot tune this car is it the unit the software, firmware or what I am lost on where to go from here i can get an sd card and try to flash from v8.

[joecar]

Can you post some screenshots of what is happening.

[etmotorsports]

Nothing is happening it is flashing just fine there is no indication of a problem that i can see, everything is flashing just fine. After the flash the car starts and runs fine, shut the car off and start again it is really lean and dies. I used a buddies efi live unit that was is not up to date on software and firmware the car doesn't have the restart issue i don't know what firmware and software it is all i know it was lasted updated in September of last year.

[Tordne]

Are you flashing the exact same tune file (.tun/.ctd) with both FlashScan devices and software? If so then it seems extremely strange! In your updating did you upgrade both V7.5 and V8 software, and FlashScan V2 firmware? Please see these knowledgebase articles if not:
- Software (http://support.efilive.com/kb_article.php?ref=5404-IJZV-0820) DO NOT PERFORM AN AUTO UPDATE
- Firmware (http://support.efilive.com/kb_article.php?ref=7243-SFGL-2949)

Cheers,

[etmotorsports]

I am flashing a .tun file with the laptop through the flashscan device using v7.5 and the latest firmware update and 7.5 update. I will read trough the info again i might have updated something i shouldn't have my firmware and software versions are list here in the post thanks for the info.

[joecar]

So you have V7.5.6.170 and V8.2.1.160 installed...?

[snax]

Im having a similar problem with a 2010 camaro also. I downloaded the stock tune with a new to me laptop with all of the latest EFIlive software and when the tune is opened in EFILive tune it comes up with B1848 out of range. I thought this was odd so i just copied the b1847 (afterstart idle speed, in gear) and replaced the out of range b1848 (afterstart idle speed, in p/n) with it. That was my only change and when I flashed that to the ecu the car would run very rough, it had a misfire and when it did misfire all the gauges would drop to 0, CEL would flash, airbag light would flash...I loaded the stock tune back to the ECU and it would run perfectly again. I decided to leave b1848 out of range and just proceed with tuning the car. I followed swingtan's VVE guide and had the car running in speed density, all was good. I then swapped out the stock injectors for 65lb/hr injectors and scaled them via table b4001.

Now once again the car is acting up, running lean and it has a misfire. I have messed with the injector scaling and VVE table to try and correct this but it does not seem to be responding properly. let me get on my laptop and upload a couple tunes for you guys to look at.

[snax]

11484
11485
11486
11487

Stock is the stock tune
stock_corrected is the idle table corrected
stock_swingtan is stock injectors speed density
stock_swingtan_injectors is same as above but with 65lb/hr injectors and b4001 scaled

car runs perfect with the stock injectors on the stock and stock_swingtan tunes but barely runs on the swingtan injector tune.

[etmotorsports]

Snax any luck what have you tried lately. I haven't messed with the car again going to try a flash from the v2 using the v8 software

[swingtan]

snax,

assuming the injector flow rate is accurate ( it seems to be from a quick glance ) I'd guess your VVE is too rich at idle. Do you have logs to match the tunes above ?

Simon

[etmotorsports]

I am trying to configure the BBF and i get an error $0194: write failure when i try to program is that an issue i am not sure what this means or what is going on. I am still having the problem of the car not idling right away on restart. I flashed from the v8 software and the car will not idle now if i flash from the 7.5 it works for the 1st start but not immediate restarts any ideas?

[Tordne]

The $1094 "usually" means that the config filesystem is full. You could try formatting the Config Filesystem to make sure there are no redundant/unnecessary files on there, and then [Program] your device with the BBX settings. Failing that you may need to reduce the number of controllers you have selected, which reduces the number of files that are to be copied to the device.

[GMPX]

EFILive tune it comes up with B1848 out of range.
Sorry I missed this message, B1848 was not defined correctly in some 2010 ECM OS's, this was fixed on July the 8th though and a release was put out with that fix.

Cheers,
Ross

[etmotorsports]

GMPX

If i have downloaded the file since july 8th it should be fixed then? What do i need to download firmware or 7.5 or 8.2? Need to try something Please advise GMPX

[joecar]

David,

Download/install V8.2, then run EFILive Explorer (EE), goto the Firmware tab, click Home, you will see new firmware, click Browse and select the filename for the firmware (FSxxx is for FlashScan, ACxxx is for AutoCal) and Program it into V2.

Then close EE and run S&T, goto BBx Settings and reprogram the BBL pidlists.

[etmotorsports]

Joecar

I have just gone through and done all you said again just to be sure it was done, and i have the same exact result, after flashing car starts and idles, cut car off and restart will not idle, let sit about 1 min and starts and idles, i am just out of ideas.

[etmotorsports]

Maybe this will help, after i reloaded firmware and bbx setting, i flashed from the 7.5 software and got the same results as i always do. I tried to flash from the 8.2 i read the tune in the car that worked, saved the tune and tried to flash it in using the 8.2 and go this error "Scrpted exited with code $0322: Conditions not correct or request sequence Error ($22)." what does this mean and if it is fixed could that be the problem i have flashed from 8.2 before with no issues so i am confused.

[Tordne]

Hi David,

Can you please email me (support@efilive.com) the trace files from the flash attempt, as described here (http://support.efilive.com/kb_article.php?ref=8254-QOGC-9586)?

Cheers,

[etmotorsports]

Tordne

I changed the file name and it worked fine from 8.2 but i still have the same issue apoun restarting before the 1 minute or so. Is there something else that i could send you or even that

[swingtan]

What's names of the original tune file and the new tune file? I wonder if there is something in the file name that's causing issues ?

Simon

[etmotorsports]

even if i flash to the original tune file posted at the beginning i still have the same issue

[etmotorsports]

I have watched the throttle blade on the 1st crank and the 2nd crank and you can see on the 2nd crank the throttle body doesn't open as far, that seems to explain why the injectors are pulseing less on the 2nd crank too. Any ideas someone

[etmotorsports]

I am now using the v7.5.7 build 165 and firmware 2.07.18 bootblock 2.07.03. I can flash from 8.2 build 175 and it has the same result. Here is the latest tune.

11704

[Chevy366]

Have the same issue on a LS1B PCM , refuses to idle after using new software to flash , and yes bootblock , firmware, and config files are updated correctly , it is as you have noticed the new software has introduced a fault into the file somewhere . .ctd of .tun does the same flashed different tunes from past to present , all .tun idled correctly until update . Engine idles fine until any load is applied , gear selector change , a/c engaged . Have checked DTCs and nothing (U1000 aftermarket radio) . Engine went from idling to no idle with just a flash .

[etmotorsports]

Something is defiantly going on i just hope we can get it fixed ASAP i am at a loss my software and firmware is so out of date and messed up i hope andrew can help me out tonight and we can try something new tomorrow that will fix this and i can finish tuning this car and make some money.

[Tordne]

Just sent you an update through the help desk. Hopefully we can do something for you, we'll give it a shot anyway :/

[etmotorsports]

No luck errors, cannot flash car now, customer is very upset wants their car back i am at a loss this problem to date has cost me about 30 hours in time and 4 tunes that i could have done but didn't cause i didn't want to mess up another car so total about 2k dollars not to mention the frustration of knowing that I updated the unit causing the problem if i would have left it alone and not updated all would be good still and i would have more money in my pocket.

If anyone knows of a fix or has something to try please pm email call something open to all options.

[etmotorsports]

thanks for the help andrew just sent you an update unfortunaly still same issue

[etmotorsports]

Anyone able to get a stock file i would like to flash it back with a new file and start over with tune and see if that help worth a try, below are the os and cal id

2G1FK1EJ9A9115630

OS 12635863

Cal 12633055

[GMPX]

David, I don't have an Auto file for that OS, however below is an update from GM for that OS you are running that will full flash in ok.

Cheers,
Ross

[etmotorsports]

Thanks paul i will keep that and try it if the problem pops up again.

Well for all who have helped me thank you very much, some how it works now, i flashed it with a tune for a manual trans thinking it might help remove some corupt data in the ecm and of course the car wouldn't even crank no surprise there, but i am not sure if that is what fixed it for sure, i then loaded in an older tune with the old calibration and it worked i kept trying tunes that i had for this calibration and they all worked up untill the date of april 27th 2011 which was right around the time i updated the unit and software, i did this a few times last week and the week before but i never loaded in a different calibration 1st so i am not sure all i know is the problem is better cause i can tune the car still have an issue with connecting with the scanner and flashing from 7.5 but i can work with that. Thank you all who have assisted me the last few weeks if you ever need some thing just pm me.

[etmotorsports]

Ross,

if i do the full flash with that file i will have get another vin is that right, that is ok i just want to be prepared.

[joecar]

After you do a full flash, use the scantool to edit the VIN... go Bidirectional->Change VIN.

[etmotorsports]

Both of the tunes crank up and idle in park. One of these tunes will not idle if you restart the car, same issue i have had before the problem seems to come back after a while not sure why i only changed minimum idle air you can see in the difference of the tunes, i used a new OS that Ross posted up for me, i loaded it and started to make changes only 1 or 2 at a time then trying to see if any one thing would start this issue to resurface take a look at the two i don't think that change would cause the issue but i am not 100% sure. The tune ending is 0016 works just fine on every restart 0017 will not restart...:sly:

11875

11876

[etmotorsports]

Swing you have any ideas?