E37 anti theft disable

[MisterBill]

So we are trying to get a 2007 HHR to run on a 2010 ECM/TCM combo (yes we have a good reason for doing this)...and I have taken care of the wiring differences between the two, but we're not sure if the anti-theft is being disabled. It seems that the EFILive software says that a full re-flash must be performed (for a OS "patch"?), yet the software doesn't seem to allow us to do this...only the engine calibration data. We have checked the appropriate "disable VATS" boxes and re-programmed the 2010 ECM...the security lamp goes off but the starter will still not turn over. (and yes I am aware that both the starter relay and P/N switch signals are on different pins and changed polarity in 2008, this has been accounted for).

Is it a true statement that if that security light is out then VATS is unquestionably not causing a no crank/no start condition? Would there be anything else to account for other than VATS and the wiring differences introduced in 2008?

Thanks...we're pretty new with the EFILive software and still learning!

Bill

[ScarabEpic22]

Close everything down, then plug your V2 into the car and laptop. Once it is on the normal screen, go ahead and open the tune file in V7.5. The big red arrow for full flashing (far right arrow) should be available now.

If you want to use V8 (not sure if you can full flash E37s in V7.5...), open the tune file in V7.5 and save it as a .ctd file. Then open V8 S&T, click F3 Tune. Click open at the bottom, open the tune file. Then click F9 Full Flash.

[gmh308]

So we are trying to get a 2007 HHR to run on a 2010 ECM/TCM combo (yes we have a good reason for doing this)...and I have taken care of the wiring differences between the two, but we're not sure if the anti-theft is being disabled. It seems that the EFILive software says that a full re-flash must be performed (for a OS "patch"?), yet the software doesn't seem to allow us to do this...only the engine calibration data. We have checked the appropriate "disable VATS" boxes and re-programmed the 2010 ECM...the security lamp goes off but the starter will still not turn over. (and yes I am aware that both the starter relay and P/N switch signals are on different pins and changed polarity in 2008, this has been accounted for).

Is it a true statement that if that security light is out then VATS is unquestionably not causing a no crank/no start condition? Would there be anything else to account for other than VATS and the wiring differences introduced in 2008?

Thanks...we're pretty new with the EFILive software and still learning!

Bill

The VATS patch is not intended to get your starter circuit to work. You will need to direct wire the starter motor. The crank command comes into the ECM via the CAN.

[samgm2]

Which module sends the crank command into the ECM?

[MisterBill]

Close everything down, then plug your V2 into the car and laptop. Once it is on the normal screen, go ahead and open the tune file in V7.5. The big red arrow for full flashing (far right arrow) should be available now.

If you want to use V8 (not sure if you can full flash E37s in V7.5...), open the tune file in V7.5 and save it as a .ctd file. Then open V8 S&T, click F3 Tune. Click open at the bottom, open the tune file. Then click F9 Full Flash.

Thanks we will try that.

[MisterBill]

The VATS patch is not intended to get your starter circuit to work. You will need to direct wire the starter motor. The crank command comes into the ECM via the CAN.

So what is the intention of the VATS patch then?

Bill

[GMPX]

Since about 2006 GM's production ECM's can't have the theft disabled via the calibrations, theft is always activated. The OS 'patch' cures this restriction by altering the theft processing in the ECM so it allows the engine to run even if the rest of the theft system on the vehicle is not fitted (eg hotrod conversion).

[gmh308]

Which module sends the crank command into the ECM?

Body Control Module normally. After it decides the vehicle is not being stolen via authentication of secret keys etc etc.


So what is the intention of the VATS patch then?

Bill

^^^ As GMPX says :). If VATS wasnt patched by the EFILive wizardry, then when the engine started cranking the ECM wouldnt turn the ignition coils on for spark and start firing injectors so no run. With the patch, when the crank and cam sensors see the engine turning over the ECM allows the engine to start and run.

[MisterBill]

lol there is no wizardry here...this is not magic just hardware and software.

Ok so you all are saying that the anti-theft system does not disable cranking, only running (fuel, spark...etc)?

Since there are "disable VATS" options in 7.5...and that requires an OS patch...I would assume then that setting these "disable VATS" options and re-flashing will apply the appropriate OS patching?

I still want go to back to the security light question...if that is off does that mean that the anti-theft system is without a doubt out of the picture? (either by disabling or providing the system what it wants).

In our setup, the light goes off with the "VATS Disable" option(s) checked, and Sam found a "Starter Relay Diagnostics" disable or something to that effect, and we can get the vehicle to crank over, but it still will not start.

Bill

[gmh308]

lol there is no wizardry here...this is not magic just hardware and software.

Ok so you all are saying that the anti-theft system does not disable cranking, only running (fuel, spark...etc)?

Since there are "disable VATS" options in 7.5...and that requires an OS patch...I would assume then that setting these "disable VATS" options and re-flashing will apply the appropriate OS patching?

I still want go to back to the security light question...if that is off does that mean that the anti-theft system is without a doubt out of the picture? (either by disabling or providing the system what it wants).

In our setup, the light goes off with the "VATS Disable" option(s) checked, and Sam found a "Starter Relay Diagnostics" disable or something to that effect, and we can get the vehicle to crank over, but it still will not start.

Bill

ROFL :) just hardware and software and the answers come in Cornflake packets too. :) And any shadetree mechanic can disable anti theft. ROFL. :)

Anti theft is a distributed function. Its about the right key in the right ignition lock with the right BCM, right instrument cluster, right ECM, right anti theft module etc etc etc. Anti theft does control cranking, but it does not do it in any one module.

The purpose of the VATS patch in ECM is to enable the ECM to run an engine in a conversion without all the other anti theft bollox that comes with a regular production car. Set VATS patch to applied, save, full flash. VATS patched. Why do you want to patch VATS out?

In some calibrations GM tests for presence of the starter relay. If it is missing then no start. i.e. crank but no start. Normally disabling the starter relay check and or setting relay type to none will work. Or use a resistor to ground the starter relay pin on the ECM.

What security light?

[joecar]

Yes, just hardware/software that you can't see, this makes it magic... and it being convoluted makes it black magic. :)

[gmh308]

I'm with Joecar. :) The EFILive team are wizards. If they werent, everyone would be doing it. :)

[Taz]

lol there is no wizardry here...this is not magic just hardware and software.


If it is just hardware and software then yourself and samgm2 should be able to figure it out with asking the rest of us for help - unless you don't understand the "hardware and software".

The intent of the "wizardry" comment (which the rest of us understood) was to pay a little respect to the folks at EFILive that have the ability to combine computer science with art (or generating solutions by thinking outside of the box).

You and samgm2 have "big plans" for your ethanol project - but as of yet, you can't even get the vehicle to start.

When you have your "hat in hand" and are asking others for help, arrogance is never a good approach.


Regards,
Taz

[MisterBill]

Anti theft is a distributed function. Its about the right key in the right ignition lock with the right BCM, right instrument cluster, right ECM, right anti theft module etc etc etc. Anti theft does control cranking, but it does not do it in any one module.

And just what determines if a ECM, cluster...etc etc is "right"? This is where research seems to return conflicting information...nobody seems to know.


The purpose of the VATS patch in ECM is to enable the ECM to run an engine in a conversion without all the other anti theft bollox that comes with a regular production car. Set VATS patch to applied, save, full flash. VATS patched. Why do you want to patch VATS out?

Why we want to do it is irrelevant.

The "full flash" button is not enabled, but I don't know if Sam as tried Version 8 yet as Erik mentioned earlier. Why would the "full flash" button be disabled in 7.5?

Aside from the starter relay check are there any other steps required to enable the engine to start?


In some calibrations GM tests for presence of the starter relay. If it is missing then no start. i.e. crank but no start. Normally disabling the starter relay check and or setting relay type to none will work. Or use a resistor to ground the starter relay pin on the ECM.

So you're saying disabling the starter relay check does not always work.

The resistor may need to be to 12V depending on the year...some pull it down, some pull it up.


What security light?

The one in the instrument cluster of course

[MisterBill]

If it is just hardware and software then yourself and samgm2 should be able to figure it out with asking the rest of us for help - unless you don't understand the "hardware and software".

The intent of the "wizardry" comment (which the rest of us understood) was to pay a little respect to the folks at EFILive that have the ability to combine computer science with art (or generating solutions by thinking outside of the box).

You and samgm2 have "big plans" for your ethanol project - but as of yet, you can't even get the vehicle to start.

When you have your "hat in hand" and are asking others for help, arrogance is never a good approach.


Regards,
Taz

Oh there is definitely a sufficient level of not understanding a lot of this! No question about that. My comment was in no way shape or form intended to convey arrogance, if anything I am an overly modest person. If that is how it came off then I do apologize. I just hate when engineering is referred to as magic...it is not.

[gmh308]

And just what determines if a ECM, cluster...etc etc is "right"? This is where research seems to return conflicting information...nobody seems to know.

The "full flash" button is not enabled, but I don't know if Sam as tried Version 8 yet as Erik mentioned earlier. Why would the "full flash" button be disabled in 7.5?

Aside from the starter relay check are there any other steps required to enable the engine to start?

So you're saying disabling the starter relay check does not always work.

The resistor may need to be to 12V depending on the year...some pull it down, some pull it up.



For all the modules to be right, the need to have the same VIN. They need to be VATS learned. This enables all modules to determine that they have agreed on the same security code. They go through a nominal process of exchanging secret key etc so that they cant be hacked. If you have a 2010 ECM, and you have not run VATS learn, then that explains a no start and maybe the security light. The 2010 ECM may not even be compatible with the earlier VATS sequence. GM makes changes often every year. All this is pretty well documented by GM in their publications.

Full flash button normally arcs up when tune tool is started with the V2 plugged in with the tune tool authenitcated to the V2. Pretty straightforward.

Sometimes the starter check is used by the calibration, sometimes not. The Efilive option always seems to work. The check type if used is defined by whether the relay connects to ground or to 12V. If its to ground then the ECM pin may want to see current to ground.

[gmh308]

You and samgm2 have "big plans" for your ethanol project - but as of yet, you can't even get the vehicle to start.

Regards,
Taz

Thats the 2nd funniest quip I read tonight :).

[joecar]

The reference to magic is a euphemism for the convoluted or unknown portion of a system and that the system functions in spite of being convoluted/unknown... it no way implies magic in the traditional meaning of the word.

When an engineer refers to magic he/she means any of the following:
- conditions are just right and everything connects/clicks/functions and generally comes/falls together very nicely (when you design a board to carry high speed signals you will know magic and antennas)(skiiers also use upon being able to perfectly carve snow),
- a subsystem which is so simple and functions so well/flawlessly is magic (e.g. 555 timer chip),
- a subsystem whose detail is hidden/obscured/protected from view so it is magic,
- a subsystem whose detail is so convoluted/difficult to understand so it is magic that it works without bugs.

There is a famous quote: "Engineering is a mixture of art, science and [black] magic"... I think Robert Pease quoted/requoted this.

[MisterBill]

I design high speed printed circuit boards and microwave antennas for a living...do not tell me it is magic, it is NO such thing. Granted RF is a different animal that doesn't tend to play by the normal rules...but there is no magic involved. Building anything that "magically" works is NOT engineering.

My simple joke of a comment was in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM intended to undermine the efforts of the EFILive engineering team. If it was taken that way, well it was not in the slightest intended that way. I KNOW the effort it takes to develop anything intended for a system developed by someone else, been there done that. Granted that was with older TBI systems...but believe you me I completely appreciate the amount of effort!

With that said yeah I can see where the term may be used in a completely different context...guess I just don't agree with the humor in it.

Anyway I'm done with the useless silly stuff. Moving on...

All I care about is why this <explicative> engine won't start with the 2010 ECM/TCM combo. Sam said he was able to do a VATS-disabled full flash with the V8 software but that made no difference (and regardless of how straightfoward anything should be...the full-flash button IS NOT enabled in 7.5, for whatever reason I don't know). Speaking of the VATS disable...there are something like three options (forgive me I don't have the software in front of me at the moment) and we are not finding anything that explains very well just which one of these options we are supposed to be using. I think it was different "Types" maybe? (Type 1 VATS, Type 2 VATS..etc) How do we know which one is appropriate?

It could also very well be that VATS has been disabled all along and there is still a problem with the starter relay diagnostics (or whatever that is called). In studying the wiring diagrams I discovered that the starter relay signal is not only on different ECM pins between 2007 and 2010, but is of different polarity (2007 ECM pulls the relay coil down, 2010 ECM pulls it high). In addition to that, in 2007 the P/N safety switch is in series with the starter relay, where as the 2010 P/N switch is not. I have rewired the P/N switch signal to the correct pin on the 2010 (and inverted with a relay to match what the 2010 ECM is expecting for the P/N signal), but I think wiring the starter relay to the 2010 diagrams was a mistake, since the BCM is going to send a "start command" to a 2007 ECM, not a 2010 ECM.

Seems the next step is to provide the ECM with an appropriate starter relay signal. As long as VATS is disabled there really shouldn't be anything else preventing this thing from starting, right?

[joecar]

I think my point was completely lost... but anyway, carry on with starter relay diagnostics. :)

[ScarabEpic22]

Bill, good to hear V8 was able to full flash the E37. Dont know why V7.5 cant, but Id try to use V8 as much as you can because V7.5 is deprecated and only being used until the full V8 tune file editor and scan tool are released.

If VATS are set to Type 1, try using Type 2 or 3. I think there is a note in the VATS patch description that suggests using Type 2 or 3. Ive found usually most vehicles are Type 1 from the factory, honestly not sure what Type 2 or 3 are/do. Try changing them and flashing it again (dont believe a full flash is needed for this part, but double check in the table description).

[samgm2]

ScarabEpic, Bill and I are working together. I believe we may be a bit confused here. All along we had believe that the VATS Patch is applied automatically. I now believe there is another procedure for applying the patch.

Is there something that we have to do to apply the "VATS PATCH"? If so, what is it. I have searched through the documentation and cannot find it. Any help with how to "APPLY THE VATS PATCH" would be appreciated.

[ScarabEpic22]

Yup I read that somewhere ha! To apply the VATS patch, you need to actually apply the patch to the tune file (just click Apply VATS Patch), change the VATS Type to 2 or 3, save the file, then full flash the file to the ECM. It sounds like you've done all of this except changing the VATS Type, give that a shot and full flash it for kicks to see if it works. Not sure if you'll need to adjust the starter relay diagnostics or not.

[GMPX]

Bill, good to hear V8 was able to full flash the E37. Dont know why V7.5 cant
Because we are trying to retire V7.5 at some point, this is also why V7.5 won't read / flash the E39, E78, E83 ECM's that V8 can.

[samgm2]

First, I want to thank you for all the help.

...but, I am not seeing this option, anywhere. Exactly where is the button or option to "APPLY VATS PATCH"???

Is it in V7.5, or is it in V8? Which menu? What button?

Here is what I have done so far:

In the "Navigator" menu
Under the "Calibration" Tab,

The "System" folder
Subfolder: "VATS"
The following parameters are configured as follows:

{G1204} VATS Enable: No
{G1205} VATS Auto learn Enable: Yes
{G1206} VATS Required to Run: No
{G1208} VATS Fail Diagnostic: Disabled
{G1209} VATS mode: Yes
{G1210} VATS Type: Type 2
{G1214} Relearn Count: 3
{G1215} Relearn Timer: 60

In addition, I also have the following set:

In the same calibrations tab, under the System Folder, subfolder: "Cranking", the following parameters are set:

{G1213} Clutch Depress To Crank: Yes
{G1217} Maximum Cranking Time: 15
{G1219} Starter Relay Diagnostic: Disabled
{G1220} Starter Relay Type: Apply to 12V

I have been a programmer for many years. I've done a lot of system's programming (Everything from VAX to Windows and Linux) as well as device driver development and applications development. Perhaps I am being too literal. To me a "PATCH" is a section of code used to overlay a binary, object or executable file at a specific location with the intent of altering data, executable code, or both...

I have not been able to find anything that says: "Apply VATS Patch". Does one of the above options apply the patch automatically?

Really appreciate your help.

Thanks again,



Yup I read that somewhere ha! To apply the VATS patch, you need to actually apply the patch to the tune file (just click Apply VATS Patch), change the VATS Type to 2 or 3, save the file, then full flash the file to the ECM. It sounds like you've done all of this except changing the VATS Type, give that a shot and full flash it for kicks to see if it works. Not sure if you'll need to adjust the starter relay diagnostics or not.

[GMPX]

If you go to calibration G1210 you should see in the description a link to '{B9903} "Disable VATS Patch"', this is the VATS patch everyone is talking about.
You might also notice the folder group that is coloured red called "Operating System Patches", the VATS Patch can also be reached going directly to there.

Cheers,
Ross

[ScarabEpic22]

Make sure you have your V2 plugged in prior to opening the tune file. This is done to ensure no one can access proprietary information without owning an EFILive product.

The patch is applied simply by changing a table, just like changing the VATS type from 1 to 2 to 3 by selecting the appropriate button, the VATS patch is a simple Applied/Not Applied.

[samgm2]

These options are not coming up for me. I made sure the FlashScan V2 was plugged into the usb bus prior to bringing up the Tune Program (V7.5). I also made sure that no tune file was open. The last sub-folder under the engine folder for me is Electronic throttle.

When I open the tune file, none of the things you point to are present.

How new is the V2? Is it possible this is a bug for the V2?

Thanks for your help. I thing we are getting close to an answer now...

I am sending the tune file to EFILive Support. Perhaps there is a bug there...

[samgm2]

I have done that. The V2 is plugged in prior to my opening the file. No tune file is open and still no joy. The options don't appear.

Interestingly, I spent a few hours earlier trying to get the VIN Relink function to be active (not grayed out) and nothing I did would make that come up either. This is bizarre.

Thanks for the all of your help by the way. I was beginning to think that both Bill and I were going crazy. There was simply no place in the documentation that showed what GMPX just showed so we had no idea what to look for.

I appreciate your patience and I owe you one.


Make sure you have your V2 plugged in prior to opening the tune file. This is done to ensure no one can access proprietary information without owning an EFILive product.

The patch is applied simply by changing a table, just like changing the VATS type from 1 to 2 to 3 by selecting the appropriate button, the VATS patch is a simple Applied/Not Applied.

[GMPX]

Sam, what is the operating system of the E37 file you have there? I just checked and we have the VATS OS patch available for all known production cars using the E37.
Can you try opening up the E38 tune that is installed when you install the software and see if the same patches are available for it? It's called '2009_Holden_E38.tun', located in \Documents\EFILive\V7.5\Bins

[samgm2]

The OS is 12635399. It is one of the supported OS's.

I tried the Holden file... No good. The VATS OS Patch options don't come up.

Andrew (from support) spent some time connected remotely to it last night. He tried a fresh reinstall of the system, he also tried purging the registry.

This is a fairly basic error. It can only be one of the following:

1. A bug in the application program. I believe Andrew ruled that one out by reinstalling.
2. The USB bus or drivers under windows 7 starter. I just ruled that one out a few minutes ago by installing the software on a large laptop and my desktop. The Desktop is a speedy Quad Core (I7-950) with Windows 7 Professional. These were also fresh installations of the software. No difference.
3. The FlashScan V2 Firmware. (Willing to try an older revision, but I believe that Andrew is running the same version that I am).
4. The FlashScan V2 Hardware. (We do have a problem with our unit. There appears to be a problem with the low speed CAN bus interface in our connector).

The problem is in the V2. My firmware version is: 2.07.14

Can anyone confirm that this firmware version works?


Sam, what is the operating system of the E37 file you have there? I just checked and we have the VATS OS patch available for all known production cars using the E37.
Can you try opening up the E38 tune that is installed when you install the software and see if the same patches are available for it? It's called '2009_Holden_E38.tun', located in \Documents\EFILive\V7.5\Bins

[gmh308]

Do the lamps on the V2 flash when the tune tool is opening? i.e. tune tool signal for a response from V2 to establish license status...

[samgm2]

Yes, there is clearly communication taking place. Best guess is that the firmware is responding with the wrong data. I could try sniffing the data traffic over the USB bus during this boot sequence. Perhaps that would yield some useful information but probably only to the developers. I will keep that open as an option.


Do the lamps on the V2 flash when the tune tool is opening? i.e. tune tool signal for a response from V2 to establish license status...

[gmh308]

Yes, there is clearly communication taking place. Best guess is that the firmware is responding with the wrong data. I could try sniffing the data traffic over the USB bus during this boot sequence. Perhaps that would yield some useful information but probably only to the developers. I will keep that open as an option.

Thats a PITA wierd one. Is your software registered with the key? I dont know if that makes any difference, but worth mentioning.

[samgm2]

Here is one possibility.

I brought up the licensing data on the FlashScan and found that both the serial number and the license number are the same. Could this be the problem?


Thats a PITA wierd one. Is your software registered with the key? I don't know if that makes any difference, but worth mentioning.

[gmh308]

Here is one possibility.

I brought up the licensing data on the FlashScan and found that both the serial number and the license number are the same. Could this be the problem?

Thats normal. So your V2 plugged in to the USB port, not plugged in to CAN, and start up the tune tool, lights blink on the V2 - right most two from memory, dont have one in front of me, but when the tool is fully booted the full flash icon is still grayed.?

[samgm2]

Yes, believe me I know the difference. I have written USB interface drivers, both low level (micro-controller side) and high level (operating system side) (HID, CDC, Storage, etc). It is absolutely connected to the USB interface. Yes, the right most LEDs on the FlashScan blink indicating a query from the application when it first comes up.

Moreover, Andrew was remotely connected to the system last night. He would have noticed if I had done something overtly stupid. He was able to query the device.

Too bad about the serial and the license number. I really thought I'd found the problem.

I keep going back to the fact that we have a bad diagnostic connector (an error in how the connector was made). The low speed bus connector (pin 1) had a problem. Bill and I were told to bend it out of the way. I know that this is on the wrong side but is it possible that this is somehow interacting with the firmware to cause this problem?

...or could it, by being shorted internally have caused this problem - perhaps causing a miswrite to internal flash?

Thanks for your persistent help by the way.

[gmh308]

Yes, believe me I know the difference. I have written USB interface drivers, both low level (micro-controller side) and high level (operating system side) (HID, CDC, Storage, etc). It is absolutely connected to the USB interface. Yes, the right most LEDs on the FlashScan blink indicating a query from the application when it first comes up.

Moreover, Andrew was remotely connected to the system last night. He would have noticed if I had done something overtly stupid. He was able to query the device.

Too bad about the serial and the license number. I really thought I'd found the problem.

I keep going back to the fact that we have a bad diagnostic connector (an error in how the connector was made). The low speed bus connector (pin 1) had a problem. Bill and I were told to bend it out of the way. I know that this is on the wrong side but is it possible that this is somehow interacting with the firmware to cause this problem?

...or could it, by being shorted internally have caused this problem - perhaps causing a miswrite to internal flash?

Thanks for your persistent help by the way.

Apologies...wasnt asking whether you had it plugged into the right hole at the right time :). Though one could interpret that I guess.

[samgm2]

Sorry, I didn't answer one of your questions. Yes, the full flash icon is fully greyed. We can only fully flash by saving as a ctd file and then bringing up V8 and using that to write the file. Moreover, the buttons to do a VIN Relink are also greyed.

So frustrating... We have been dealing either with the bad connector issue and this problem for 10 days now.

[Taz]

Because we are trying to retire V7.5 at some point, this is also why V7.5 won't read / flash the E39, E78, E83 ECM's that V8 can.

Hello Sam,

The intent of this post was to inform you that given the controller you are using (very new), any edit work or modifications are done via V7.5, but any reading / flashing of the controller are done via V8. Make sure you are working in *.ctd file types - these are compatible with both V7.5 and V8 - alleviates the need to use the "save as" function in V7.5 - should save you some time.

I received your PM - I will respond when I get some free time in the evening - booked solid here this week.


Regards,
Taz

[samgm2]

Thanks, Taz

I've made the switch on all the files and saved them in the new format. Looking forward to V8 being released. It looks like a significant improvement.

Sam


Hello Sam,

The intent of this post was to inform you that given the controller you are using (very new), any edit work or modifications are done via V7.5, but any reading / flashing of the controller are done via V8. Make sure you are working in *.ctd file types - these are compatible with both V7.5 and V8 - alleviates the need to use the "save as" function in V7.5 - should save you some time.

I received your PM - I will respond when I get some free time in the evening - booked solid here this week.


Regards,
Taz

[MisterBill]

Progress!

Sam sent his file to the folks at EFILive, they performed the VATS patch and sent the file back. That seems to work as the engine will now crank with the wiring modifications I did to make it compatible with the 2010 ECM (I added a DPDT switch to go back and forth between the 2007 and 2010 ECM). However for whatever reason it seems the fuel pump is not running, which seems to me really shouldn't have anything to do with VATS (?) so shouldn't be that difficult to track down.

Thanks to the EFILive folks for working so diligently to solve this VATS thing, and to the forum members for the helpful posts! We WILL get this thing going!

Bill

[samgm2]

Bill, I just want to make sure that while there has been "progress", the car still doesn't start. The fuel is clearly being disabled (most likely the injectors).

The car attempts to start, perhaps runs one second and then dies. The lock indicator is not lit.

I remain confused. Even though the patch is applied and the the crank signal is going out, VATS is clearly still active.

I have tried both type 2 and type 3 vats and changed pretty much every other parameter to try and find a combination that works.

I still have a couple of questions that I really hope someone on this list can answer:

1. What must be done in order to initiate a VAT Relink? I've tried everything and this option remains greyed out.
2. Exactly what does the VATS patch do? Clearly it is allow the engine to crank and perhaps even run for a second. But there appears to be much more to getting past vats than the patch is doing.

To be perfectly frank, I am not sure why we even needed the vats patch. I honestly think all that we needed to do was the VAT Relink, since all we did was replace the ECM with another unit and we still have a TDM and a BCM. We just needed to marry them altogether. For the life of me however, I am unable to get this function to become active. Is there a secret to this or is this just one more function that my software is refusing to perform due to some sort of weird licensing bug?

Is there a manual procedure for the Relink (assuming my V2 or software are broken)? Key on for 30 minutes, then off for 12 or some other equally painful procedure I can endure to get past this problem? :-)

Sam


Progress!

Sam sent his file to the folks at EFILive, they performed the VATS patch and sent the file back. That seems to work as the engine will now crank with the wiring modifications I did to make it compatible with the 2010 ECM (I added a DPDT switch to go back and forth between the 2007 and 2010 ECM). However for whatever reason it seems the fuel pump is not running, which seems to me really shouldn't have anything to do with VATS (?) so shouldn't be that difficult to track down.

Thanks to the EFILive folks for working so diligently to solve this VATS thing, and to the forum members for the helpful posts! We WILL get this thing going!

Bill

[GMPX]

1. What must be done in order to initiate a VAT Relink? I've tried everything and this option remains greyed out.
VATS relink will initiate the auto relearn process in the ECM, however, that is assuming the ECM is in a compatible car with the same theft system.
The 'greyed' out option is also affected by the same problem Andrew was working with you on.



2. Exactly what does the VATS patch do? Clearly it is allow the engine to crank and perhaps even run for a second. But there appears to be much more to getting past vats than the patch is doing.
The VATS patch simply changes what the ECM does when the theft codes are not correct. For example, in the engine transplant world, an LS3 in to a 68 Camaro, there is no theft system on the 68 Camaro so the ECM will not allow the vehicle to run, what the patch is make the ECM think that it got the correct theft code and therefore allow the engine to run. There was no global theft disable calibration in the late model ECM's.



To be perfectly frank, I am not sure why we even needed the vats patch.
Se above.


I honestly think all that we needed to do was the VAT Relink, since all we did was replace the ECM with another unit and we still have a TDM and a BCM.
But wasn't your vehicle originally equipped with a different ECM to the E37?

Cheers,
Ross

[Taz]

Hello Sam & Bill,

Just want to recap a little to make sure I have the details correct. Your test mule is a 2007 HHR ? (not sure if it has an auto or manual transmission). As a disclaimer, I have never worked on an HHR.

If memory serves the original HHR ECM would have been an E67 ?

You have transitioned to an E37 ECM ?

You have disabled the VATS system and have succeeded in getting the engine to turn over (crank), but not start - as the fuel pump is not activating ?

If the above is true, then I have a couple of suggestions. Firstly, you are fighting this battle on too many fronts at the same time - VATS / BCM / FPCM / etc. I would recommend getting the engine running (to confirm E37 functionality & the VATS patch settings) - with an old school (crude) intervention. Provide the engine with the proper fuel pressure / volume either by manually activating the in tank fuel pump, or but using a small portable external fuel source.

If this results in a successful start / run condition then you will know your E37 & VATS settings are functional. Secondly, after this you could then decide if you wanted / needed to refine the fuel pump activation system to operate as original - not sure of the control path (ECM / BCM / FPCM / etc.) on an HHR.

On many of the Gen III engine conversions I have done, the fuel pump is a "stand alone" unit - powered when the ignition key is placed in the "run" position - and not under the control of any "module".

Not sure if this is of any assistance ...


Regards,
Taz

[MisterBill]

Ross and Taz, both the 2007 and 2010 HHR ECMs are E37s.

I spoke with Sam this evening and he got the engine started on the 2010 ECM by performing the 30 minute VATS-Learn procedure (I believe with the original unmodified binary file). Of course it ran poorly, in need of the CASE relearn procedure (at least, maybe others). I remember seeing that procedure performed at a dealership and reading about it on the forums here, and he did find the tool in 7.5 Scan to run this procedure, but it apparently only listed E38 and E67 ECMs, not the E37. That was a few hours ago so this might be outdated already. I'll talk to him in the morning.

Bill

CORRECTION: Sam says the engine started after disabling the Variable Valve Timing feature of the 2010 ECM. I believe he said that was with performing the VATS relearn on an unmodified bin file.

[GMPX]

Ross and Taz, both the 2007 and 2010 HHR ECMs are E37s.
So why did the theft need to be disabled?
For some reason I thought all this came about because the original ECM was a Bosch with no Flex Fuel abilities.

[MisterBill]

[QUOTE=GMPX;151403]So why did the theft need to be disabled?
For some reason I thought all this came about because the original ECM was a Bosch with no Flex Fuel abilities.

Hi Ross,

Well no matter WHAT we did this silly thing just refused to start. Disabling the anti-theft system was a troubleshooting tool, to eliminate that "feature" as a cause for the no-start condition. However, I don't think we ever really accomplished disabling the anti-theft system.

Not sure where the Bosch thought came from...a different thread maybe? The FFV abilities part is true...2010 has it, 2007 does not and that is the driving factor behind this swap.

[MisterBill]

Ok I did the crank relearn procedure this morning (some instructions would have REALLY helped here) and it starts and runs fine now. Still throwing some variable valve timing related codes...P0016 I think (crank-cam relationship...obviously VVT related) and P0365, cam position sensor problem (also seems to be VVT related according to some research). Had no issues disabling the P0016 (forgive me if this is incorrect, its from memory), but we could not disable the P0365 DTC...doing so caused the engine to not start (crank but no start). We were however able to disable the MIL with this code, and Sam will report this to EFILive support (probably already has).

We still do not have the full flash function available in the software. As of this morning support thought they had solved it with a licensing fix, but that did not work. Oddly enough it seems to work with some other sample binary files. Sam will follow up with support on this as well.

The FlexFuel feature did indeed work in the 2007 HHR with the 2010 HHR FFV ECM (programmed with the 2007 VIN).

At least it's running now!

[gmh308]

The FlexFuel feature did indeed work in the 2007 HHR with the 2010 HHR FFV ECM (programmed with the 2007 VIN).

At least it's running now!

Cool! :cool: That's great to hear that VFS will run when it sees all the right sensors. How long did it take before the learn started and it settled on an ethanol content %?

[Taz]

Ok I did the crank relearn procedure this morning (some instructions would have REALLY helped here) and it starts and runs fine now.)


Hello Bill,

Generic CKP system variation learn procedure instructions are included in the Scan Tool User Manual - pages 152 and 153. When you downloaded the EFILive software, user manuals and about a dozen tutorials would have also been downloaded - these are generally downloaded to C:\Program Files\EFILive\V7.5\Doc.

The CKP variance instructions are also included in the OEM service manuals - available from Helm Inc. - the only manuals worth owning in my opinion.


Regards,
Taz

[joecar]

+1 on the GM service manuals. OP could probably benefit from the electronic version (covers all years/models).

[MisterBill]

Cool! :cool: That's great to hear that VFS will run when it sees all the right sensors. How long did it take before the learn started and it settled on an ethanol content %?

Sorry for the late reply...been out of civilization range (Nebraska) for the weekend.

It happens pretty darn quick...within a minute probably it is very close and within the next minute, maybe two, has completely settled. Switching from E~85 to E~10 seemed to go quicker.

Couple of things to note...cruise control doesn't work and the brake pedal doesn't release the TCC (thought lifting throttle does). This is due to a difference in how the system processes brake pedal signals...2007 uses two individual switches, one for lighting (to the BCM) and one for TCC/cruise (to the ECM) whereas 2010 uses a single Brake Pedal Position Sensor (potentiometer) to the BCM. 2010 ECM has no dedicated brake pedal signals. (maybe these are programmable...haven't really looked yet)