Schematics for E67 & E38 hardware

[NateD4]

Does anyone have a circuit board schematic of an E38 or E67?

I would be interested in seeing one so I can understand the hardware we are working with in terms of customization.

For that matter does anyone know what part number PowerPC chip they use?

[GMPX]

NateD4, I'm not sure you understand how companies like EFILive and our competitors come to exist. All the technical ECM data you ask for on the forum is not publicly available, it's not available through Delphi, Bosch or GM, reverse engineering is how we all came to be. What I can tell you is inside the E38 it uses flip chip technology, meaning majority of the IC's inside are unknown custom Delphi made components with no part numbers to be found.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip_chip

Cheers,
Ross

[joecar]

1. GM will never release schematics, source code, or anything related (lots of R&D invested).
2. The companies that reverse engineer the GM stuff would also not release (lots of R&D invested).

[NateD4]

I figured that would be the case. Thats why I asked. To me EFI Live seems a much more open group then HP Tuners.

In any rate I suppose I'm struggling to understand the reason we can't do more with these OSs (perhaps we are and I'm not aware of it).

My primary interest is in figuring out how they work and possibly adding a VGT control algorithm to them.

I would think if you have a complete ROM / flash dump you can figure out what is going on inside the system pretty readily. I could be wrong... However knowing that these are 44 Mhz PPC processors is a good jump. The question is which architecture.

In any rate if this proves too difficult I'll just design my own VGT controller using micro controllers. It shouldn't be too difficult (though a bit time consuming).

[GMPX]

I figured that would be the case. Thats why I asked. To me EFI Live seems a much more open group then HP Tuners.
It is, but it's still a commercial product, not open source.


In any rate I suppose I'm struggling to understand the reason we can't do more with these OSs (perhaps we are and I'm not aware of it).

My primary interest is in figuring out how they work and possibly adding a VGT control algorithm to them.
If you wrote the ECM code from scratch, or could recompile the code then maybe you could, but when neither of those is possible then it makes OS operational changes (big or small) quite difficult, maybe bordering on not possible.


I would think if you have a complete ROM / flash dump you can figure out what is going on inside the system pretty readily. I could be wrong... However knowing that these are 44 Mhz PPC processors is a good jump. The question is which architecture.

In any rate if this proves too difficult I'll just design my own VGT controller using micro controllers. It shouldn't be too difficult (though a bit time consuming).
E38 uses a MPC561, E67 uses an MPC565.
Google search for 'Fleece Performance Turbo Brake", it's a VGT controller for the Duramax Turbo's. Might be just what you need, it hooks on to the CAN bus and controls the turbo vanes.

Cheers,
Ross

[Taz]

Ross, you are a better man than I. It was nice of you to respond at all, but you also provided some information. This Forum is dedicated to EFILive users assisting each other with using the tuning product.

NateD4, you have posted many threads of late, asking for technical information only, not in anyway related to using the EFILive tuning product. I suspect you don't even own an EFILive product.

Further, I suspect your intent is to gather whatever technical information you can (whether it be the intellectual property of another or not), and use it for your own material gain.

I would suggest you disclose your intentions, so that there could be an honest and considered exchange of information (if warranted) or go elsewhere to "fish" for confidential information.


Regards,
Taz

[GMPX]

Taz, I know exactly where you are coming from, but giving out some part numbers is only going to save him 5 minutes searching on Google.
The overall picture on what is happening here is EFILive is standing on top of Mount Everest watching NateD4 at base camp with the mindset all he needs is a few ropes and a bottle of Powerade to make it to the summit. :grin:
I wish him luck in he's pursuits on adding VGT controls for the E38/E67, but I don't think he appreciates what lies ahead.

[gmh308]

Taz, I know exactly where you are coming from, but giving out some part numbers is only going to save him 5 minutes searching on Google.
The overall picture on what is happening here is EFILive is standing on top of Mount Everest watching NateD4 at base camp with the mindset all he needs is a few ropes and a bottle of Powerade to make it to the summit. :grin:
I wish him luck in he's pursuits on adding VGT controls for the E38/E67, but I don't think he appreciates what lies ahead.

ROFL...with all due respect, thats the funniest snippet I have read in weeks. Brought tears to my eyes. :) And 1 in 4 fully prepared and experienced climbers doesnt make it on Everest. :(

[gmh308]

In any rate if this proves too difficult I'll just design my own VGT controller using micro controllers. It shouldn't be too difficult (though a bit time consuming).

Try Horace at MAST Motorsport. He might work with you. :)

[gmh308]

What I can tell you is inside the E38 it uses flip chip technology, meaning majority of the IC's inside are unknown custom Delphi made components with no part numbers to be found.
Cheers,
Ross

Are there many of those flip chips in there? What do they do?

[NateD4]

Maybe true..... But you don't get anywhere if you don't set some lofty goals and try..... Failing a few times is all part of the journey.

I'll eventually get where I'm going even if I end up reinventing engine management I suppose.

Googling hasn't turned up much.... Figured I'd ask the experienced before retracing their steps or blazing a new trail.

[GMPX]

Are there many of those flip chips in there? What do they do?
There is seven, the functions of them I am not sure. I suspect some will be output drivers, maybe input buffers, a power supply regulator, I'm not really sure.

[Taz]

Figured I'd ask the experienced before retracing their steps or blazing a new trail.

Given that you neglected to state your intent from the outset (that's called dishonesty or misrepresentation), the above statement equates to "stealing someone elses ideas and hard work, so I can profit from it".

I suggest you go somewhere else for your "research" ... I for one will not look favourably on any further posts from you.


Regards,
Taz

[NateD4]

Taz,

I think you've misunderstood this thread.

[Taz]

I understand just fine ... you've been exposed for what you are ...


Regards,
Taz

[NateD4]

And what exactly am I?

I certainly don't see where you think I'm being dishonest.

I'm building an engine project as many other people on these forums do. I don't see that as being dishonest. I certainly see no harm in asking the questions I have.

Again you seem to not understand something but I'm at a loss for what that is.

[NateD4]

GMPX,

What you've described in your previous post sounds essentially like BGA ICs.

What I am trying to get a feel for is the type of I/Os available. Of course I figured the first place to start is to ask if anyone else already knew. A schematic of the E38 and E67 would have answered all my questions as far as what the hardware can do. Second to that a block diagram would have been helpful also.

My question is now one of the available I/Os and drivers. I'm curious what bit rate the A/D and D/A blocks are. I'm also curious about the amplifiers that are used to drive things. Are they all analog or are they mixed analog and digital.

I thought maybe someone might know already. If not I guess I'll have to try to figure it out.

[Taz]

This Forum is dedicated to enthusiasts assisting enthusiasts with the direct application of the EFILive software - that's not you.

You are correct, there is "no harm" in asking any question - but people with shred of morals or integrity would not ask certain questions of others.

By the same logic, there is also "no harm" in responding to your questions with phrases similar to "get lost" or "go elsewhere" - similarly to an unwanted interloper.


Regards,
Taz

[NateD4]

Enthusiasts helping enthusiasts. It sure sounds like it. I'm not sure why I don't qualify as 'a direct application of the EFI Live software'. Also I certainly saw nothing so far in the forum that said it is limited to 'cookie cutter' uses of the software. It even appears to me that custom OSs aren't that uncommon with EFI Live members.

Additionally I don't see how you can question my moral integrity, you really don't know me that well. I also find it slightly ironic that you are so concerned with integrity. This is after all a forum for a product which essentially has reverse engineered another company's intellectual property. On top of that they are profiting from it (or at least charging money). Does that make it more legitimate or having more integrity.

Ironically I picked EFI Live because the people on the forum seemed more cooperative and knowledgable than other competing products.

I also don't see why certain questions shouldn't be asked. This is a forum for people using EFI Live and for those that wish to tune engines with it. I'm sure the idea of a custom OS that adds functionality isn't new. I'm merely asking about adding VGT to the OS and discussing things I consider pertinent to it.

Again I don't see the problem it is within the spirit of what has already been done....

[joecar]

GMPX,

What you've described in your previous post sounds essentially like BGA ICs.

What I am trying to get a feel for is the type of I/Os available. Of course I figured the first place to start is to ask if anyone else already knew. A schematic of the E38 and E67 would have answered all my questions as far as what the hardware can do. Second to that a block diagram would have been helpful also.

My question is now one of the available I/Os and drivers. I'm curious what bit rate the A/D and D/A blocks are. I'm also curious about the amplifiers that are used to drive things. Are they all analog or are they mixed analog and digital.

I thought maybe someone might know already. If not I guess I'll have to try to figure it out.It seems that you are over-thinking this...

is your intended project the vehicle or the ECM...?

get an engine controls schematic and use the ECM in the same manner as shown on the schematic.

:)

[GMPX]

NateD4, perhaps your posts are not coming across the way you intend. Your point of EFILive being formed from reverse engineering an OEM product is true, however, what you are asking would be no different to getting on a Playstation forum and asking how it's copy protection system can be hacked and expecting one of the mod chip companies to tell you. Just because a companies IP is formed from reverse engineering that doesn't put them at some sort of obligation to share said information.
I don't think you are going to get the answers you are looking for as far as what is going on inside the ECM down to the level you want. I have been dealing with Delco/Delphi controllers for near on 15 years and I can tell you most of the parts (apart from the CPU and Flash) are custom design with no commercial equivalent and nobody but the designers of the ECM would understand it fully.

[holden77]

what make and model is it in

[NateD4]

Joecar,

The vehicle is the project (engine specifically) but the ECM is part of the deal. Since GZm has never sold a gas engine with VGT it's not part of the ECM to my knowledge. That makes the ECM part of the project.

I have the entire engine harness and computer from the donor car. I also have GM wiring diagrams. At present that isn't a huge issue. VGT control algorithms are higher on the list.

[NateD4]

GMPX,

You certainly are right. Asking has a higher probability of returning results than not asking.

Now that I know what others have uncovered and not uncovered I can focus my efforts where they need to go.

I certainly didn't set out to offend anyone or walk on anyone's hard work.

I figured few were interested in VGT and the chances of it being added low. So I figured I'd have to develop it on my own.

[NateD4]

GMPX,

Another dumb question....

If they are using COTS processors, flash and controllers that pretty much leaves A/D, D/A, amplifiers and communication buffers to be put into their custom silicon.

My next question would be how hard it is to estimate via I/O to the outside world to see what the intermediary custom silicon is doing.

I guess it's time to fire up my E38 on the bench and a scope to see what's happening.

As it appears the board has a large processor and a small one. 16 bit. I'm guessing that handles ETC or communication. I guess the pinout will tell for sure.

[GMPX]

I guess it's time to fire up my E38 on the bench and a scope to see what's happening.
Yep, looks like it is.

You might be approaching this as a fun project, but if I were you I'd just buy an external VGT controller and be done with it. If time is not money then all I can do is wish you luck on your venture.
The Fleece Performance VGT (http://www.fleeceperformance.com/product/44b8429c-9713-4893-b2f9-d46b5acea96e.aspx) controller just sits on the CAN bus and controls the VGT from the CAN messages, couldn't be simpler.

[gmh308]

Yep, looks like it is.

You might be approaching this as a fun project, but if I were you I'd just buy an external VGT controller and be done with it. If time is not money then all I can do is wish you luck on your venture.
The Fleece Performance VGT (http://www.fleeceperformance.com/product/44b8429c-9713-4893-b2f9-d46b5acea96e.aspx) controller just sits on the CAN bus and controls the VGT from the CAN messages, couldn't be simpler.

And even if one didnt want to buy one, it would be easier to build the same thing than mess with ECM internals. :)

[joecar]

Nate, post up some scope waveforms.

[NateD4]

It sounds like the Fleece unit is similar to alternative option. However for nearly $1000 maybe I can get an industrial micro controller up and running and programed for less.

What kind of scope waveforms are you looking for? Or do you want bus snoops from a logic probe?

[joecar]

Logic analyzer waveforms.