Calc VET

[pormgb]

I'm doing a second Calc VET and am having trouble pasting map values to the VE table, it worked first the first time but the values get pasted as shown in the map.
Any ideas what I'm doing wrong? SELBEN Factor map works correctly.

[Taz]

As long as you are certain your calc_pids.txt, as well as the SELBEN and VET maps were properly constructed - and you have applied appropriate filters - then apply your results.

The results in the VET table map above appear to be a BEN factor - so to apply these would you select all, then choose the "Copy with Labels" function - then in your VE table select all, then choose the "Paste and multiply with Labels" function.


Regards,
Taz

[pormgb]

As long as you are certain your calc_pids.txt, as well as the SELBEN and VET maps were properly constructed - and you have applied appropriate filters - then apply your results.

The results in the VET table map above appear to be a BEN factor - so to apply these would you select all, then choose the "Copy with Labels" function - then in your VE table select all, then choose the "Paste and multiply with Labels" function.



Regards,
Taz


Ok, that worked!! am I missing something when reading the tutorial, for the VE table it states you just copy with labels.

[Taz]

The tutorial was a work in progress by our late friend WeathermanShawn. It is not the final product that would have been submitted for publication - he was sharing it with us while under development - both for our benefit and to help improve the final document.


Regards,
Taz

[pormgb]

I read about Shawn's passing, he was a very bright guy!!

I just realized you are a Canadian, I'm located in Oakville and have a 1986 Porsche 944 with LS1/6, I plan to eventually take the car to Champion Motor Sports to have it tuned + Dynoed.

The car is running quite well after applying Calc VET but I'm having some vibration from idle till around 3K, it feels like the motor is pulsing but goes like hell once over 3K RPM. The motor also appears to cut out when I go hard on the gas, almost like going into second gear instead of 4th, if I rev up slowly I don't have any problems. I'm looking for some help with these issues so if you have any ideas, please let me know.

Thanks!!

[Taz]

Do you have the misfire diagnostic routine active in your tune ? I find using the misfire diagnostic can assist in sorting out the type of issue you are describing - either inclusive or exclusive. In a "cammed" engine I will generally set the misfire diagnostic to be active well above idle - such that any camshaft "lope" is not erroneously detected as a misfire.

Post your tune if you wish - will take a look for anything that stands out as contributory to the above described issues.


Regards,
Taz

[pormgb]

Do you have the misfire diagnostic routine active in your tune ? I find using the misfire diagnostic can assist in sorting out the type of issue you are describing - either inclusive or exclusive. In a "cammed" engine I will generally set the misfire diagnostic to be active well above idle - such that any camshaft "lope" is not erroneously detected as a misfire.

Post your tune if you wish - will take a look for anything that stands out as contributory to the above described issues.


Regards,
Taz

I'm not familiar with misfire diagnostics, ill take a look in to that feature. I'm running a 226/229 .575/.578 116 LSA cam, I didn't think this was large enough to cause problems.

I've also posted a copy of my latest tune, I'm building this tune slowly as I get a better understanding of the PCM and motor.

[Taz]

I took a quick look at your tune - all segments are 2002 Camaro - but the tune has been highly altered. A little more information about the engine and parts used would be helpful before recommending any changes - i.e. stock 2002 LS1 longblock with the above camshaft, stock LS1 injectors, Camaro or Truck MAF / IAT ...etc.


Regards,
Taz

[pormgb]

Yes, that would make sense. I bought the PCM and harness from a speed shop in the US, they used a basic tune that didn't run very well. Since receiving the PCM, I've been enabling and changing things based on what I've read and recommendations from others.

Here are the specs;

LS6 Block with DIY ported 806 Heads
LS6 Intake
85mm TB
226/229 .575/.578 116 LSA cam
2000 up PCM
MSD Blaster Coils
Hooker Shorty Headers
No CATS
85mm Professional Products MAF
30lb Injectors
Fuel Pressure set to 58PSI, external FPR with return.

Thanks !!

[pormgb]

I took a quick look at your tune - all segments are 2002 Camaro - but the tune has been highly altered. A little more information about the engine and parts used would be helpful before recommending any changes - i.e. stock 2002 LS1 longblock with the above camshaft, stock LS1 injectors, Camaro or Truck MAF / IAT ...etc.


Regards,
Taz

Yes, that would make sense. I bought the PCM and harness from a speed shop in the US, they used a basic tune that didn't run very well. Since receiving the PCM, I've been enabling and changing things based on what I've read and recommendations from others.

Here are the specs;

LS6 Block with DIY ported 806 Heads
LS6 Intake
85mm TB
226/229 .575/.578 116 LSA cam
2000 up PCM
MSD Blaster Coils
Hooker Shorty Headers
No CATS
85mm Professional Products MAF
30lb Injectors
Fuel Pressure set to 58PSI, external FPR with return.
15904068 LS1 MAF with IAT
Corvette C5 K+N Filter


Thanks !!

[Taz]

Thanks, that information helps. Are the injectors GM products or aftermarket ? The reason I ask is that a lot of the injector related parameters have been altered. If this data is accurate (based on supplied data) - then no problem - if not, it will make tuning difficult to impossible.


Regards,
Taz

[pormgb]

Thanks, that information helps. Are the injectors GM products or aftermarket ? The reason I ask is that a lot of the injector related parameters have been altered. If this data is accurate (based on supplied data) - then no problem - if not, it will make tuning difficult to impossible.


Regards,
Taz

They are Ford Racing M-9593-BB302 30lb, I used an IFR spreadsheet to get the current IFR table settings.

I have also posted the initial tune file, you can see where I started, this was based on information I sent via Email.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Ford+Racing/397/M-9593-BB302/10002/-1

[Taz]

Just going through your tune .... the front O2s and one knock sensor diagnostic were turned "off". Couple more questions so I can appropriately finish up some changes to the tune:

did you conduct a CKP learn ? (the DTC is turned off - as are the misfire DTCs) - this is common with a "mail order" tune
what temperature thermostat are you using ? (those DTCs are also turned off)
Once I we get the base tune squared away, you can try the CALC VET technique again.

If the injector data you are using is not accurate, the CALC VET technique will probably not work out. I have worked on tunes were the injector data was questionable. As the saying goes you end up "baking in" errors into the tune. When I have this type of issue / concern - I will try to tune using the AutoMAF and AutoVE techniques.

If you are not content with the ultimate results of the CALC VET process - you may wish to consider these tuning options - but we are not there just yet.


Regards,
Taz

[pormgb]

Just going through your tune .... the front O2s and one knock sensor diagnostic were turned "off". Couple more questions so I can appropriately finish up some changes to the tune:

did you conduct a CKP learn ? (the DTC is turned off - as are the misfire DTCs) - this is common with a "mail order" tune
what temperature thermostat are you using ? (those DTCs are also turned off)
Once I we get the base tune squared away, you can try the CALC VET technique again.

If the injector data you are using is not accurate, the CALC VET technique will probably not work out. I have worked on tunes were the injector data was questionable. As the saying goes you end up "baking in" errors into the tune. When I have this type of issue / concern - I will try to tune using the AutoMAF and AutoVE techniques.

If you are not content with the ultimate results of the CALC VET process - you may wish to consider these tuning options - but we are not there just yet.


Regards,
Taz

The disabled diagnostics would make sense, I enabled the items I could figure out, its seems I'm still really lacking.

* did you conduct a CKP learn ? (the DTC is turned off - as are the misfire DTCs) - this is common with a "mail order" tune

No I didn't do a CKP, i didn't see any codes so i suspected the motor was fine.

* what temperature thermostat are you using ? (those DTCs are also turned off)

I'm using a stock thermostat so that would be 180 degree.

Thanks for this input, my problems are beginning to make sense.

[Taz]

OK ... to reply to your comments above ... stock thermostat is generally 195 F (which works fine) .... you should perform a CKP learn any time you mix and match an engine and a PCM. The tune I attached below will now set a DTC until the CKP learn is completed.

As I stated previously, this tune has been highly altered. I returned the spark tables to stock LS6 (Z06) parameters. Spark is generally the last parameter to be tuned, and is best tuned on a dyno.

The commanded PE was highly irregular and has been set to 1.17 EQ - this may explain some of the fueling issues. I left the airflow parameters and injector data unchanged - again these are somewhat irregular, but may well be appropriate - impossible to know definitively by reviewing the tune remotely.

If you are able, attempt to confirm:

B4001 - injector flow rate
B4003 - minimum injector pulse width
B4004 - default minimum pulse width
B4005 - small pulse adjust
These injector values differ from "stock" - which means they have been altered. If they were altered correctly - no problem. If not, these could very well cause you to "chase your tail" during tuning.

The tune attached below may not work any better than the previous tune - give it a try and see. Remember to do the CKP learn. It is set up for CALC VET tuning - B0120 has been reduced to 400 RPM - so that the PCM defaults to the MAF for fueling calculations.


Regards,
Taz

[pormgb]

OK ... to reply to your comments above ... stock thermostat is generally 195 F (which works fine) .... you should perform a CKP learn any time you mix and match an engine and a PCM. The tune I attached below will now set a DTC until the CKP learn is completed.

As I stated previously, this tune has been highly altered. I returned the spark tables to stock LS6 (Z06) parameters. Spark is generally the last parameter to be tuned, and is best tuned on a dyno.

The commanded PE was highly irregular and has been set to 1.17 EQ - this may explain some of the fueling issues. I left the airflow parameters and injector data unchanged - again these are somewhat irregular, but may well be appropriate - impossible to know definitively by reviewing the tune remotely.

If you are able, attempt to confirm:

B4001 - injector flow rate
B4003 - minimum injector pulse width
B4004 - default minimum pulse width
B4005 - small pulse adjust
These injector values differ from "stock" - which means they have been altered. If they were altered correctly - no problem. If not, these could very well cause you to "chase your tail" during tuning.

The tune attached below may not work any better than the previous tune - give it a try and see. Remember to do the CKP learn. It is set up for CALC VET tuning - B0120 has been reduced to 400 RPM - so that the PCM defaults to the MAF for fueling calculations.


Regards,
Taz

Thanks very much for you input and work!!

With regards injector tables, SVO EV6 30lb injectors seem to be quite common on LS1s, can I just copy these tables from some one that has the same injectors?

I was also looking into CKP learn, how do you tell the PCM the brake is being applied?

Thanks !!

[Taz]

An LS1-B PCM with a manual tune will be "looking" for input from a brake pedal switch and a clutch pedal switch - you require both of these if you want the best from your tune (idle / coast down / DFCO). Both of these are "normally closed" switches - they conduct current (from a 10 amp fused source) to the PCM when the pedals are NOT depressed. Applying either pedal "opens" the switch and cuts off the current (voltage) supply to the PCM.

The brake switch connects to the C1 (Blue) connector pin 33. The clutch switch connects to the C1 (Blue) connector pin 32 (Camaro OS) or pin 35 (Truck OS).

For the purpose of the CKP learn process you could hook up a simple ON / OFF switch within reach of the drivers seat position - use a 10 amp fused battery source (always hot). Before inserting the key into the ignition - turn this switch ON. Before starting the engine check to see if DTC 0719 has been set (it will not turn on the MIL - so you have to check manually) - if it was set, clear it before starting the engine.

Start the engine and let come up to operating temperature. In the CKP learn procedure - when you are required to apply the brake - turn this switch OFF. Execute the CKP learn with the switch off.

Leave the engine OFF for a few minutes - but turn the "brake" switch back on. Clear any DTCs, then restart the engine (keeping this switch on) - and confirm the CKP learn was successfully completed.

FYI ... if there is constant power to the PCM from the brake switch during a drive cycle (i.e. the brakes were never used) the PCM will set DTC 0724 ... so permanently supplying power to the brake circuit will not work - a proper switch is required.


Regards,
Taz

[pormgb]

An LS1-B PCM with a manual tune will be "looking" for input from a brake pedal switch and a clutch pedal switch - you require both of these if you want the best from your tune (idle / coast down / DFCO). Both of these are "normally closed" switches - they conduct current (from a 10 amp fused source) to the PCM when the pedals are NOT depressed. Applying either pedal "opens" the switch and cuts off the current (voltage) supply to the PCM.

The brake switch connects to the C1 (Blue) connector pin 33. The clutch switch connects to the C1 (Blue) connector pin 32 (Camaro OS) or pin 35 (Truck OS).

For the purpose of the CKP learn process you could hook up a simple ON / OFF switch within reach of the drivers seat position - use a 10 amp fused battery source (always hot). Before inserting the key into the ignition - turn this switch ON. Before starting the engine check to see if DTC 0719 has been set (it will not turn on the MIL - so you have to check manually) - if it was set, clear it before starting the engine.

Start the engine and let come up to operating temperature. In the CKP learn procedure - when you are required to apply the brake - turn this switch OFF. Execute the CKP learn with the switch off.

Leave the engine OFF for a few minutes - but turn the "brake" switch back on. Clear any DTCs, then restart the engine (keeping this switch on) - and confirm the CKP learn was successfully completed.

FYI ... if there is constant power to the PCM from the brake switch during a drive cycle (i.e. the brakes were never used) the PCM will set DTC 0724 ... so permanently supplying power to the brake circuit will not work - a proper switch is required.


Regards,
Taz

Got it!!

It seems like the brake and clutch signals are similar to VSS, I installed VSS and the car ran much better. I going to permanently install brake and clutch, ill use micro switches to provide the correct switch signals.

By the way, I installed the tune and the car started and idled fine, I also notices significantly less shudder between Idle and 3K RPM. Later this week ill install the brake and clutch switches, do the CKP learn and see how the car runs.

Thanks !!

[joecar]

I updated the Calc.VET tutorial to say "copy-with-labels" at steps 4 and 5.

I also added this note to post #1 of the Calc VET Summary Notes:


Note: when copying a map from the scantool, always use copy-with-labels, and then in the tunetool use paste-with-labels or paste-multiply-with labels (whichever is appropriate) to modify the target table.

[pormgb]

I updated the Calc.VET tutorial to say "copy-with-labels" at steps 4 and 5.

I also added this note to post #1 of the Calc VET Summary Notes:

Thanks!!

[pormgb]

An LS1-B PCM with a manual tune will be "looking" for input from a brake pedal switch and a clutch pedal switch - you require both of these if you want the best from your tune (idle / coast down / DFCO). Both of these are "normally closed" switches - they conduct current (from a 10 amp fused source) to the PCM when the pedals are NOT depressed. Applying either pedal "opens" the switch and cuts off the current (voltage) supply to the PCM.

The brake switch connects to the C1 (Blue) connector pin 33. The clutch switch connects to the C1 (Blue) connector pin 32 (Camaro OS) or pin 35 (Truck OS).

For the purpose of the CKP learn process you could hook up a simple ON / OFF switch within reach of the drivers seat position - use a 10 amp fused battery source (always hot). Before inserting the key into the ignition - turn this switch ON. Before starting the engine check to see if DTC 0719 has been set (it will not turn on the MIL - so you have to check manually) - if it was set, clear it before starting the engine.

Start the engine and let come up to operating temperature. In the CKP learn procedure - when you are required to apply the brake - turn this switch OFF. Execute the CKP learn with the switch off.

Leave the engine OFF for a few minutes - but turn the "brake" switch back on. Clear any DTCs, then restart the engine (keeping this switch on) - and confirm the CKP learn was successfully completed.

FYI ... if there is constant power to the PCM from the brake switch during a drive cycle (i.e. the brakes were never used) the PCM will set DTC 0724 ... so permanently supplying power to the brake circuit will not work - a proper switch is required.


Regards,
Taz

Making sure I understand the wiring.

Do I just add a switch to pins 32+33 that connects to a permanent 12v source?

[Taz]

Making sure I understand the wiring.

Do I just add a switch to pins 32+33 that connects to a permanent 12v source?

If you are mounting proper switches to each pedal (brake and clutch) - these can use a common 12 volt 10 amp source. This source should be "Hot" when the ignition key is in the "ON" or "RUN" position. Power one side of each switch (brake and clutch) with this circuit.

The other side of the brake switch then connects to C1 pin 33. The other side of the clutch switch then connects to C1 pin 32.

To use a hand held switch to facilitate the CKP learn (to mimic brake switch input) - connect one side of this switch to a 12 volt 10 amp source - can be an always hot (battery) or hot in run (keyed) source. Connect the other side of this switch to C1 pin 33.


Regards,
Taz

[pormgb]

If you are mounting proper switches to each pedal (brake and clutch) - these can use a common 12 volt 10 amp source. This source should be "Hot" when the ignition key is in the "ON" or "RUN" position. Power one side of each switch (brake and clutch) with this circuit.

The other side of the brake switch then connects to C1 pin 33. The other side of the clutch switch then connects to C1 pin 32.

To use a hand held switch to facilitate the CKP learn (to mimic brake switch input) - connect one side of this switch to a 12 volt 10 amp source - can be an always hot (battery) or hot in run (keyed) source. Connect the other side of this switch to C1 pin 33.


Regards,
Taz

Ok,

So both 32 and 33 are not needed for CKP relearn, just 33.

[pormgb]

Ran the car today with new tune and CKP, the car ran very well but still had surging when going hard on the gas as low as 2K RPM, there were no DTCs. I also ran another Calve VET, implemented both map changes and will run the car tomorrow.

[slows10]

Have you checked fuel pressure? A good way to do it is by getting a gauge with a long enough hose that you can tape it to your windshield while driving.

[pormgb]

Have you checked fuel pressure? A good way to do it is by getting a gauge with a long enough hose that you can tape it to your windshield while driving.

That has crossed my mind, I have a gauge on a piece of braided line, ill turn it around and stick out from under my hood. Another option I've been thinking about is to get an electrical gauge with a sender, I could then log fuel pressure.

Thanks!!

[slows10]

I think there is a tutorial around here somewhere for logging fuel pressure. I think joecar has the calc pid for converting the voltage to a pressure.

[joecar]

See post #7 of this thread: Day-3-trying-to&p=149454&highlight (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?16742-Day-3-trying-to&p=149454&highlight=#post149454)

Also see here for more info on the sensor: Digital-30-trans-PSI-sending-unit-works-great (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?16736-Digital-30-trans-PSI-sending-unit-works-great%21&highlight=fuel+pressure)

[pormgb]

Guys,

I have a log when the surging/bucking occurs, if its a fuel pressure issue wouldn't my AF go crazy?

[slows10]

You would think it would go lean, so yes you should see it in the WB. But imo it should be checked anyway. I looked at one of your logs and there was no pid for spark advance. If you have a surging problem,I would check spark timing as well.

[pormgb]

You would think it would go lean, so yes you should see it in the WB. But imo it should be checked anyway. I looked at one of your logs and there was no pid for spark advance. If you have a surging problem spark timing should be checked as well.

Ok, just to clear on what happens!!

I'm in third gear, go hard on the gas and the motor begins to rev but halts throwing me forward in my seat, I ease off the gas then go hard again the same thing happens, I ease of the gas for the third time shift down to second go back on the gas, the motor then picks up and a can shift through all gears. This is unpredictable, if go easier on the gas the problem does not seem to happen, it seems to be related to how hard I accelerate.

[joecar]

Loose wire or bad connection...?

[pormgb]

Loose wire or bad connection...?

Yes, beginning to thinks so!!

My harness was made by a racing outfit in the US, it really good quality so I don't think its connectors. Ill double check all connections and make sure power sources are good.

Thanks!!

[joecar]

What vehicle is it...?

( for example, on the 4th gen F-car, if the battery hold down is loose, during hard acceleration the battery tilts back and shorts out on the AC accumulator. )

[pormgb]

What vehicle is it...?

( for example, on the 4th gen F-car, if the battery hold down is loose, during hard acceleration the battery tilts back and shorts out on the AC accumulator. )

I have the LS1 in a Porsche 944, I don't loose power because my electrical accessories are all still functional, I'm wondering if the PCM's power source gets interrupted under load. Ill have some time to check the wiring and test the car tomorrow, thanks for the guidance!!

[pormgb]

Guys,

The car is running much better, I copied all injector settings from another tune that had SVO 30lb Injectors, the vibration/shudder has almost gone away. I also just done another calc VET, I'm going to take a look at the log file and see how my LTFTs are doing. The vibration/shudder must be something to do with how the injectors are pulsing at lower RPM's, I still think I don't have optimal injector tables but the car is running much better.

[pormgb]

Still working on tuning the car, I fixed the bucking/surging problem by smoothing a large spike in the VE table.

I'm still trying to do a Calc VET after receiving my new tune due to positive trims, in post #2 it was recommended I do a paste and multiply with labels but when I do this my VE table doesn't look right. All PIDS seem to be working fine, I have attached a copy of my latest tune file plus some screen shots of my VE table. Does this VE table look right?

[joecar]

Calc.VET tutorial:
- paste CALC.VET into B0101 VE table (i.e. VE is calculated from other parameters),
- paste-multiply CALC.SELBEN into B5001 MAF table (i.e. MAF is corrected using BEN),


i.e. VE table is pasted, and MAF table is paste-multiplied.


edit: updated with color.

[joecar]

Calc.MAFT: this is the opposite of Calc.VET (VE is paste-multiplied, MAF is pasted).

[pormgb]

Calc.VET:
- paste VET into B0101 VE table (i.e. VE is calculated from other parameters),
- paste-multiply SELBEN into B5001 MAF table (i.e. MAF is corrected using BEN),


i.e. VE table is pasted, and MAF table is paste-multiplied.

Ok, when I paste the contents of table A to B0101 I get the following results, I see very low values, nothing like the rest to table.

[joecar]

Are you matching units...?

Are the units of the CALC.VET map (map A) the same as the units of your B0101...?

Map A should be CALC.VET x RPM x MAP, is this what you have (post a screenshot of this)...?

Your map A should look like this (after hiding low count cells and applying the filter):

11812




Note:
map of CALC.VET [% or g*K/kPa] pastes into B0101 [same units].
map of CALC.SELBEN [factor] paste-mulitplies into B5001.

i.e. the Calc.VET tutorial performs these two things:
- calculates the VE table (using paste into B0101),
- corrects the MAF table (using paste-multiply into B5001).