5.9L ECM limits have been conquered

[GMPX]

It's been a very productive week in Cummins Beta. Whilst the work involved trying to hunt down all these limiters hasn't really stopped from day one, we have had some major breakthroughs in the last few weeks.

The first was announced last week with a new calibration to stop the pulse width disappearing in the higher RPM's. However, in further testing there was still a problem from about 4,000RPM up with the final injector pulse time being dropped back by at least 20% from commanded, so whilst the fuel limiting was nowhere near as bad as it's been it was still there, enough to annoy me that I was going to have to beat this thing.

Just last night in conjunction with Starlite Diesel and his customer Derek Parker, we had a break through. I had found some more things that could be changed to help hold pulse width in the upper RPM's, it worked!!
Looking over Derek's log he sent he now has as much fuel as they are commanding all the way to the set RPM limiter at 5,000RPM. I know Zach will be working with Derek on this tune further now this final hurdle has been overcome, so we can't wait to see how Derek goes at he's next competition event. I don't know what RPM limit Derek is planning on using in he's final tune, but there is now nothing to suggest he can't take this beyond 5,000RPM with all the fuel he needs.

If you look at the log below from Derek's truck you can see this ECM was giving full fuel to just before the desired 5,000RPM limiter kicked in, the tune is written in a way that commanded fuel will start to fall a little a few hundred RPM before it hits that set 5,000 RPM limiter.
This just proves that all the 'experts' that told Cummins owners that their factory ECM was not capable of this are wrong. Maintaining pulse times of 2,500uS+ all the way to 5,000RPM, it can be done on the factory ECM...well, it can be done if tuned with EFILive :sly:
EFILive will release another update with this final modification next week, however, there is a number of people who will be wanting this for events that are on this weekend, contact Cindy (you know her over at CompD etc) so we can get you set up.

Thanks to everyone involved and sorry to all those people not running EFILive tuning, you are about to get crushed by your EFILive competitors :hihi:.

Cheers,
EFILive


http://download.efilive.com/Software/Images/log5000b.png

[comnrailpwr]

Amazing work. Thank all

Jake

[FUBAR]

"That'll do pig..that'll do." Job well done.

[FUBAR]

I'd just like to hear a sound clip when they recorded that log!

[comnrailpwr]

X2

Jake

[zfuller123]

I'll do you one better :-)

Derek took this video for me while data logging some seperate logs from those Ross posted above.... click below to have some video with your audio:

First Cummins Common Rail to fully fuel to 5000 RPMs with EFILive (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Y6PnaNLyeY)

[vortecfcar]

Solid, Nice work guys!

[Duramax 6.6L]

Great news

[THEFERMANATOR]

I'll do you one better :-)

Derek took this video for me while data logging some seperate logs from those Ross posted above.... click below to have some video with your audio:

First Cummins Common Rail to fully fuel to 5000 RPMs with EFILive (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Y6PnaNLyeY)

That don't even sound like a CUMMINS anyore turning those kinds of RPM's, sounds more like an old straight 6 JEEP or something.

[AFTERMATH DIESEL]

Hats off to everyone.

[Dmaxink]

Congrats Efilive!! Great work...Efilive has changed things around in the Diesel performance world once again

[olboyowl]

awesome job fellas. that thing sounds pissed off!

[killerbee]

Ross et al, am glad to see that you are doing something rewarding again! Keeps the therapy bill manageable. :)

[Duramax 6.6L]

What are the table numbers that were unlocked to achieve this.

[zfuller123]

I don't think they are publicly released (new tables) but they will be published as Ross gets them updated and ready I believe.... They said next week they should have a public release available...

[Duramax 6.6L]

I don't think they are publicly released (new tables) but they will be published as Ross gets them updated and ready I believe.... They said next week they should have a public release available...

I know that they are not released yet, but I was wondering if one of the beta testers would let us know what table numbers.

[GMPX]

Ross et al, am glad to see that you are doing something rewarding again! Keeps the therapy bill manageable. :)
As in not Bosch, yes :grin:


I know that they are not released yet, but I was wondering if one of the beta testers would let us know what table numbers.
They aren't tables, more like options disabled.

[Duramax 6.6L]

They aren't tables, more like options disabled.

I have been paying close attention to this, Mind stating exactly what options were disabled.

[comnrailpwr]

The upper RPM pulswidth limiter I'm guessing.

Jake

[GMPX]

As comnrailpwr stated, it's a pulse width limiter option.

[comnrailpwr]

Any news on the new PW limiter public release?

Jake

[GMPX]

I'll have to check with Paul when he plans on doing another update, however, he has been rather ill this past week so things have ground to a halt in that area.
On the additional pulse width, what is out there now (D0511 set to minimum) will get you sorted to about 3,300RPM, the new addition that was given to the beta testers is for RPM's beyond that whilst requesting 3,000uS+ injection times.

[comnrailpwr]

Sounds good. Thanks Ross. Hope Paul gets better.

Jake

[The Neens]

Congradulations to EFI Live & Starlite Diesel...Good work guys...

[ScarabEpic22]

I missed this one, awesome news!

That thing sounds nasty, how much defuel are you running for the shifts? Looks like a lot! Sounds a little like the 4.2L I6 in my TrailBlazer, probably because they're both I6s. Mine revs to 6500 with EFILive, but I know it doesnt make half the power that Cummins is making...

Guess anyone who wants to be competitive with a 5.9L Cummins needs to be running EFILive otherwise they have no chance. Have fun at the track this weekend everyone. :D

[zfuller123]

I missed this one, awesome news!

That thing sounds nasty, how much defuel are you running for the shifts? Looks like a lot!

It's a manual 6 speed - not auto.... so the defuel is commanded by right foot :-)

[ScarabEpic22]

It's a manual 6 speed - not auto.... so the defuel is commanded by right foot :-)

Ah, I forgot some of the 5.9s are manuals, the Duramax lost that option after the LB7 so its not something that registers all the time lol.

Can the stock 6 spds handle the power you're making now, or are they a fully built trans?

[zfuller123]

Well so far the 6 speeds seem to be holding up much better than the autos - provided they have a good clutch in them. The stockers arent much good for anything too far beyond stock power levels apparently... but the transmissions really seem to take a beating on all the trucks i've worked on so far....

[comnrailpwr]

Stock dodge nv5600 are good to about 900hp pretty reliably. The stock g56 are good to about 600hp reliably, these are aluminum housed and are only good if proper gear is selected. They hate being lugged. Stock autos are carp as usual.

Jake

[THEFERMANATOR]

Ah, I forgot some of the 5.9s are manuals, the Duramax lost that option after the LB7 so its not something that registers all the time lol.

Can the stock 6 spds handle the power you're making now, or are they a fully built trans?

The DURAMAX was available with a stick all the way up to 06 with the LLY(the detuned LBZ engine). They are rare, but out there.

[comnrailpwr]

Their bad a$$ too!

Jake

[ScarabEpic22]

The DURAMAX was available with a stick all the way up to 06 with the LLY(the detuned LBZ engine). They are rare, but out there.

Really?! I had no idea, they must be really rare then!

I wonder how many more Cummins guys will start swapping built Allisons into their trucks to hold the power the Dodge autos cant hold. Then tune everything with EFILive! :D (I know you need adapters, etc)

[icemanjc1]

Really?! I had no idea, they must be really rare then!

I wonder how many more Cummins guys will start swapping built Allisons into their trucks to hold the power the Dodge autos cant hold. Then tune everything with EFILive! :D (I know you need adapters, etc)

If I had the cash (building a house at the moment) and could figure out how to get the Allison TCM to talk to the V2, this would have been my summer project. Why spend $1600 on a stand alone when you've got EFI live. Hmm, maybe this winter.

[2007 5.9]

Really?! I had no idea, they must be really rare then!

I wonder how many more Cummins guys will start swapping built Allisons into their trucks to hold the power the Dodge autos cant hold. Then tune everything with EFILive! :D (I know you need adapters, etc)

Not gonna happen!!! Lol!!

Heck, high power dmax guys are now running a DuraFlite...47RE adapted to fit the GM bellhousing.

You can make a Dodge slushbox easily handle 1k hp....longevity is the concern.

~Les

[Truck Source]

The new additions have been awesome. thanks to Cindy for getting me the tables over so fast. We have full fuel up to 4k now (havent tried further due to a single s475 and stock bottom end). Also been finding a way around some of the tq management. Went from 11.7s@116.7 to 11.4@119 with the new tables. Ran a small shot w/ 600psi bottle pressure and went 11.0@124. 60 foots were 1.65 to 1.68. Race weight was 7100lbs for anyone curious. Thinks are getting fun!

Started tuning on a balanced/built motor w/ twins so hopefully soon ill have feedback to how the rpm limititions (or lack there of) really come into play in a drag racing scenario.

[GMPX]

Excellent news on the improvement with those new additions. 7000lbs running 11 flat! :shock:

[ScarabEpic22]

If I had the cash (building a house at the moment) and could figure out how to get the Allison TCM to talk to the V2, this would have been my summer project. Why spend $1600 on a stand alone when you've got EFI live. Hmm, maybe this winter.

And why cant the Allison talk to the V2? EFILive's been tuning the Allisons for about 5 years now. I cant remember if the latest 6spd is fully supported yet, but it might be by now.

We've heard all Allison 1000s use the same TCM for different applications but are still year-specific. ie a 2006 Allison 1000 6spd uses the same TCM in a Silverado HD as in a motorhome chassis.


Not gonna happen!!! Lol!!

Heck, high power dmax guys are now running a DuraFlite...47RE adapted to fit the GM bellhousing.

You can make a Dodge slushbox easily handle 1k hp....longevity is the concern.

~Les

Hmmm interesting, didnt know that. I remember a year or two back where everyone was hot and heavy on swapping an Allison behind a Cummins and a company made all the adapters to do it including the TCM.


Excellent news on the improvement with those new additions. 7000lbs running 11 flat! :shock:

Gotta love that, and Truck Source says is a pretty stock truck! It sucks, I really REALLY want a diesel now (Dmax or Cummins) to tune and see these huge gains with. Dang, not in the cards currently.

[icemanjc1]

The high HP Dmax guys that run 47 & 48re do this for quick shifts (no defuel), less gears, and they are much lighter. Rebuild/inspect them every 3rd race probably. Not very hard for me to pick up a 48re and set it on my bench, unbelievable Dodge would put something like this behind Cummins and expect it to live.

When I think about programming an Allison behind a Cummins, I think about TPS, Torque load %, speed input communication to the TCM. And of course wiring the OBDII port for it to communicate.

As I drag this even more off topic... Sorry.

[skneeland]

.... Also been finding a way around some of the tq management.......

pm me with an email address & ill send you a smarty base tune with all the torque management and transmission protect turned off ;)

[FUBAR]

pm me with an email address & ill send you a smarty base tune with all the torque management and transmission protect turned off ;)

You will get into multiple problems creating scripts and trying to manually copying values off other tunes into and from the smarty tune. You will also get a false sense of tuning when you go back to a fresh file. I KNOW!! And somebody else can verify this as well.

[THEFERMANATOR]

And why cant the Allison talk to the V2? EFILive's been tuning the Allisons for about 5 years now. I cant remember if the latest 6spd is fully supported yet, but it might be by now.

We've heard all Allison 1000s use the same TCM for different applications but are still year-specific. ie a 2006 Allison 1000 6spd uses the same TCM in a Silverado HD as in a motorhome chassis.

Yes the V2 can talk to the ALLISON TCM for any 1000, 2000, or 2400 series TCM up to about 08(5 speed and A40 6 speed TCM's).

Hmmm interesting, didnt know that. I remember a year or two back where everyone was hot and heavy on swapping an Allison behind a Cummins and a company made all the adapters to do it including the TCM.


DESTROKED is the one making the adapters, but they only supported teh 5 speed TCM's. They got PCS to make a program that would allow a PCS fuel box work as an interface box to provide a TPS signal for a stock ALLISON TCM from an 03-04 LB7 GM truck. They still make them, but haven't made a 6 speed set-up yet as the 5 speed TCM used a more generic J1939 protocol whereas the 6 speed TCM's use teh GM CCAN based protocol only. The 6 speed TCM can be made to work though as MAXPF has been playing around with it. If somebody would make a CAN based emulator though, one could swap a 6 speed ALLISON into most anything(or if ALLISON would lift there restrictions off of there programming, one could make a custom OS using the ALLISON DOC program).

Gotta love that, and Truck Source says is a pretty stock truck! It sucks, I really REALLY want a diesel now (Dmax or Cummins) to tune and see these huge gains with. Dang, not in the cards currently.

Not to go OT here, but figured I would clear up some things here.

[Truck Source]

pm me with an email address & ill send you a smarty base tune with all the torque management and transmission protect turned off ;)

Ive seen a smarty tune and looks like they basically juice up the pedal and disable all the tqmanagement from what i can see. Not exactly the smoothest way imo. My email is buhidar@trucksourcediesel.com however if you need it.

Im gonna guess there are tables we dont have yet (as the efi guys have been concentrating on the rpm limitations) that have to do with torque management. I played with the pedal and some rail pressure and a few things in the tq management tables and went from hitting a "limiter" around 20psi on the line w/ mid 1.8 60 foots to being able to massage the pedal enough on the line and build as much boost as wed like and cut some mid to high 1.6s. Ill bet when they find it (and if its there im sure they will!) well be able to make tq management a total thing of the past.

Anyone else played w/ this kind of thing in a drag racing scenario much?

[ScarabEpic22]

Not to go OT here, but figured I would clear up some things here.

Thanks for clearing that up, yes DESTROKED was the guy/company now I remember.

Back on topic now, gotta love no defuelling at high RPMs with the 5.9s now! :D

[FUBAR]

I have. I'm sure there are tables that EFI hasn't come up with yet (publicly.) I can tell you that a good friend of mine compared the popular tune you're speaking of against an EFI tune in HEX format and came up with a sizable chunk of data that was not in EFI's tune. Whether that be "X" programmer's way of writing files to flash ECM, or their way of tuning, or it may be exactly the missing link to torque management, I can't say because it's hard to decode the HEX format into something that's understandable. I can tell you having the torque tables opened up with what you're trying to do DOES make a difference.

Now, trying to tune around it without cheating with a box tuners base file? You can, somewhat. But it kinda negated the whole principle of getting the truck to run how I wanted it to on the streets and all around. Until we have some type of better control over torque management alone, it's kinda of a tradeoff.

Oh, FYI, it took me several phone calls and 3 OS's to finally get my tuning to take effect like it should. I.e. Pulse limiting option had no effect (always limited no matter what setting) with other tables even using files that the box tuner didn't touch. I'd copy, script, update you name it from the base tuner file into a fresh untouched file, and it'd run like crap. Partly due to some files were nit being copied or written right, and partly due to tuning with tables that I couldn't see had dramatic effect on the tuning with it. Im just trying to save somebody else running into the problems I did. But we're all big boys. I won't EVER try to cheat again! What I've got now is good enough, better than everything I've had before, but with torque tables supported via EFI, I really don't see anything else to be had.

[Truck Source]

I have. I'm sure there are tables that EFI hasn't come up with yet (publicly.) I can tell you that a good friend of mine compared the popular tune you're speaking of against an EFI tune in HEX format and came up with a sizable chunk of data that was not in EFI's tune. Whether that be "X" programmer's way of writing files to flash ECM, or their way of tuning, or it may be exactly the missing link to torque management, I can't say because it's hard to decode the HEX format into something that's understandable. I can tell you having the torque tables opened up with what you're trying to do DOES make a difference.

Now, trying to tune around it without cheating with a box tuners base file? You can, somewhat. But it kinda negated the whole principle of getting the truck to run how I wanted it to on the streets and all around. Until we have some type of better control over torque management alone, it's kinda of a tradeoff.

Oh, FYI, it took me several phone calls and 3 OS's to finally get my tuning to take effect like it should. I.e. Pulse limiting option had no effect (always limited no matter what setting) with other tables even using files that the box tuner didn't touch. I'd copy, script, update you name it from the base tuner file into a fresh untouched file, and it'd run like crap. Partly due to some files were nit being copied or written right, and partly due to tuning with tables that I couldn't see had dramatic effect on the tuning with it. Im just trying to save somebody else running into the problems I did. But we're all big boys. I won't EVER try to cheat again! What I've got now is good enough, better than everything I've had before, but with torque tables supported via EFI, I really don't see anything else to be had.

Great info! i havent tried to "cheat" w/ a box tuner tune either, as there were too many downsides i didnt want to deal with. the only reason to "cheat" would be to take advantage of what we cant see yet in the tune, as its already in there. The files we've been running are built from scratch off the stock file. With small adjustments i was able to get around some of the tq management to get a decent 60 foot without having to sacrifice too much. Its a fine line you have to walk. but like you said once we get the other tables, if they exist, itll be way better.

People will soon discover w/ the dmax and ford world already know, custom tuning will be the BEST option out there, bar none.

Wonder what itd take to convice the EFI guys to provide software for the powerstroke world? haha. IMO its far superior product and customer service compared to what is offered in the powerstroke world for customer service.

[GMPX]

pm me with an email address & ill send you a smarty base tune with all the torque management and transmission protect turned off ;)
I have been told that doing this has some negative side effects (gear position indicator stops working), is that right?

[GMPX]

I can tell you that a good friend of mine compared the popular tune you're speaking of against an EFI tune in HEX format and came up with a sizable chunk of data that was not in EFI's tune.
Wonder how he got he's EFILive tune in Hex format? :shock:
What we have found is the Cummins ECM seems to have a lot of tables that do nothing, or better put, not used on the 5.9L. So whilst he might see lots of differences in 'hex', don't assume that something changed is even used. 'If in doubt, max it out' seems to be the way of thinking for some.

[skneeland]

I have been told that doing this has some negative side effects (gear position indicator stops working), is that right?

yes, no gear indicator light, but the tires light up from a dead stop with a touch of the throttle.

is it possibly some form of a manual tune allowing this?