Stock vs Smarty vs EFi Live

[2007 5.9]

Here is a dyno graph from Friday night...this was on a STOCK 2006 Dodge Quad Cab. Truck has a Air Dog 150, and a built tranny. Stock airbox with stock filter...stock everything, even catalytic converter and muffler.

All runs were made the same night, same load % and same driver and dyno operator.


There is more in her, but without a functioning EGT gauge i wanst comfortable adding more fuel. The is with 45* main timing (no Pilot over 2600) and no post past 1500, and a 3100PW.

Also ZERO smoke.

Truck is beast to drive!!! Cant wait to get a EGT gauge in and really see where we can end up...also with this PW; FPD and FPM were perfect 160MPA, So I know the rail can support more PW and with ZERO smoke it can take more PW.


Light blue is stock...dark blue is Smarty TNT sw7, and red line is EFI.


~Les

11811

[andrewjamesbond1]

B-e-a-utiful!

[GMPX]

That is a fantastic and fair comparison Les because this is what a lot of people are asking for, how was the smoke on the TNT?

[2007 5.9]

That is a fantastic and fair comparison Les because this is what a lot of people are asking for, how was the smoke on the TNT?

Smoke on the TNT was pretty smoky...customer was complaining of having to pedal around it.

I'm waiting for a mid-week update from the customer on driving manners, smoke, MPG etc...

~Les

[GMPX]

That's great Les, it's stories like that I wish people could comprehend rather than the "EFILive will blow your engine up" rubbish you see posted elsewhere by people who obviously don't get what it's all about.

[2007 5.9]

EFI wont blow it up...the IDIOT behind the keyboard can.

Thankfully I like my customers and refuse to push the limits on their trucks without first trying them on mine.

~Les

[1chevy02]

Thats what I like to see. Now I almost want a CTD to play with. Looks like they are going to be real close to what a duramax can do on tune only. I can't wait till the 6.7 is released as I have always felt like nobody has truly unlocked the potential a stock 6.7

[FUBAR]

Good job Les! You're exactly right, the tool's only as good as the man behind it. For that, pat yourself on the back.

Ross, Paul, and the rest of the EFI crew; the man behind the tool can only showcase his true talent with the proper tool. And for that, you all can pat yourself on the back too!

-Andrew

[GMPX]

EFILive is just a modern day equivalent of a set of spanners and screwdrivers, I wonder how many people were told not to buy spanners in the 60's because they might blow their engine up. :grin:

[Swayse]

Cool!! :)

[Blacky]

EFILive is just a modern day equivalent of a set of spanners and screwdrivers, I wonder how many people were told not to buy spanners in the 60's because they might blow their engine up. :grin:

Me!!! :(

Regards
Paul

[Dmaxink]

I'm on my 2800pw hot street tune with28* timing and minding my own business just now as a Smokey cummins ext cab with a Smarty sticker dumped smoke all over me and I'm in my.Mega cab and pulled the mess out of him with hardly no smoke and he flashed his lights at me and I pulled over to him demanding me to pop the Hood...I said you see that sticker you have on the back...that's why I just pulled you! Lol needless to say he is coming to the shop in the.morning for Efilive! Lol just thought I would share

Edit:excuse the typos and run-ons!!! Typing and driving not safe lol

[GMPX]

Nice story Kory, almost as good as Jesse from Wait4Me selling a tune to the driver of the Hummer limo we were riding in a few years back at Vegas.

[FUBAR]

Glad to see you're diggin' the Mega Kory. I love people's expressions when they see the "big slow truck" light up like Ferrari...lol, ok maybe not the best analogy but ya get the picture.

Oh, and Kory's NOT exaggerating about his tune, IT HAULS the mail for sure!

My $0.02
-Andrew

[cumminsDK]

I talk to the guy the other day on the phone who supposedly build a 120 percent over cp 3 for the cummins I'm working on. the reason I called him was because after only adding a little bit of fuel it started to drop rail pressure. when I told him this he ask me how I added fueland I said with EFILive. And he said oh you have to stay away from that you'll blow your engine up. I said what do you use and he said I stack a bully dog with an mp8. I said that's funny the last engine i saw melt down had 1 of those as Nick @ duramaxtuner says "smoking rattling day to spool up death stacks". he then proceeded to tell me that you don't add fuel by increasing duration you add fuel by increasing pressure. Guess I should have bought a pump elsewhere!

[GMPX]

he ask me how I added fueland I said with EFILive. And he said oh you have to stay away from that you'll blow your engine up.
It's pretty sad isn't it. It'll take a while, but they'll come around.

[FUBAR]

It's pretty sad isn't it. It'll take a while, but they'll come around.

I don't care so much anymore trying to correct and inform the mis-led...I just let the spanking do the talking..

[Dmaxink]

Give it a year and everyone will know what the deal is...justtt like the dmax world

[THEFERMANATOR]

EFILIVE can melt an engine down as fast as anything in the wrong hands, BUT in the hands of somebody with some patience it can make an engine into what it SHOULD be. I've helped a few people with tuning that have melted em down, and it seems when they do this it normally begins with them using a boxed tuner and just adding more fuel to it rather than just build a tune from the ground up. I know I tried this as well and I was unimpressed with the results, but with alot of help from somebody on the forums I learned a little bit and now have some good running tunes. It's just like back in the 60's alot of cars got melted down because of too much timing and not enough fuel by people who didn't know what they were doing. In the right hands it's great, but in the wrong hands it can be an engine killer. It pretty much all boils down to who is doing the tuning.

[comnrailpwr]

Agree 100%

Jake

[olboyowl]

what kind of egts are u guys seeing with your stock trucks?

[FUBAR]

I can peg my 1600* pyro gauge in no time if I want to. But I'm slowly working my fuel down to get a better air/fuel ratio to cool it down and it's actually running smoother and power hasn't suffered.

[mstordahl]

With a 3200 main puls and post disabled I can get to 1500* by midway through OD on a pull from a stop. I am experimenting like FUBAR, taking it down a little at a time to get it a little cooler.

To the OP, do you know if there was any added pressure to your tune?

[olboyowl]

just makin sure i wasnt the only one. by 90mph its hittin 1600. thats were i let out. im messin with the timing now. was at 38* and pumped it up to 40*. seemed to help some. changed it to 42* today but didnt get a chance to drive it. you takin duration or pressure out of it? im only runnin a 2700 pw, so im thinking pressures what needs to come out. thanks for the feedback guys.

denny

[FUBAR]

Pressure and duration kinda go hand in hand. I am cutting both back, but more so duration. I like to run as much pressure as I can to get the utmost atomization per quantity of fuel so it will completely burn and get the most cooling. One can flip that statement on it's head though. When Sled pulling, we can dump so much fuel that 1: we're getting all the power we can get from flooding fuel (black smoke due to getting a little extra power from the fuel atoms partially breaking down) and 2: (here's where it flips the statement I made earlier) the extra fuel almost has a cooling effect up to a certain saturation point, so down the pull, we're cheating to keep from melting the motor down along with all our other tricks.

Oh, and the most timing I've run on a 2700uS is 47* (27*) without rattling.

[FUBAR]

Oh, but, BIG but, I'm running a single injection event throughout the whole tune. So I believe I can get away with more than others. I dont like phasing pilot out either. It rattles a bit when it signs off and on (I could fix that, but I don't want pilot anyways) and I'd rather focus on just the Main event. Makes it simpler to tune and provides me with the biggest window to make my truck run as powerful and smooths as possible (minus the 24 valve sound idling, which I love!) Just talk to Ben Strader a EFI guru and listen to his philosophy.

[olboyowl]

cool, thanks for the breakdown. i did what les and some others have done with pilot and cut it out after 2600rpms. havnt noticed any rattling but will listen tomorrow. i could tune it out i guess. did u just add the timing that pilot was calling for to the main event or just add timing, see how it reacted and make changes? im also runnin 180mpa at 3500rpm for pressure. dont want to go above 3500 with the stock top end. again, thanks for the info. just makin sure im in the ballpark. first time tuning and still learning.

denny

[comnrailpwr]

FUBAR, I know this can be individually biased and on a per truck basis but how much max timing do u think could be run on a 900-1000RWHP pulling truck. say 50-55 degrees in efilive values with. 2700-2800us, 3500-4000 RPM, single injection event, 180 Mpa. Just don't want to chance anything blowing up before some logged runs on the rollers.

Jake

[FUBAR]

I found what minimum timing I needed to run without getting the side effects of running it. White smoke, stumbling etc. It definitely helped doing so hand in hand with another guy on here.

And I know our rail sensor is not totally accurate at high pressures and fining out truly what pressure we are running is not entirely possible (just call Todd up at TC Diesel) but 180 mpa?? How is your CP3 keeping up? Hint, tune to keep desired to actual pressure the same and the truck shall reward you. I only run 164 mpa max. And that's just at a small portion of the table.

[FUBAR]

Jake, I would say 28*-32* BTDC. Which equates to 48*-52* in EFI values with 20* added in. Remember to adjust shut off to rpm too.

[olboyowl]

actual stays with desired, but does drop off around 1k psi give or take after 3k rpm. dost go below 24k psi though. i'll try the lower pressure and see how it likes it tomorrow. if i get ballsy, i'll kill pilot injection. will post results tomorrow. thanks for the help man.

denny

[comnrailpwr]

Thanks for your honest opinion.

Jake

[FUBAR]

Denny, pay attention to pulse width when its coming on...

Les, sorry for derailing.

[olboyowl]

ok, thanks again man. yeah, sorry for getting the thread off topic guys.

[TCDiesel]

I believe It was My Pump...And as I mentioned You need to build a Tune..Regardless changing duration and adding HP it must be accompany by other changes..PIDs,Voltage, Max Values,ETC...You can command what You want..But unless you change the max threshold's it has NO value..that's Why its called tuning..And I said YOU NEED to Be-careful OR you will burn-down Your Motor...By the way that same Pump has burn-down 3 Motors. One engine was Beans..So don't you think he knows how to tune his Machines? it was a standalone. So do as You wish..NONE were running EFILive..If you like we have a 0 volts switch that you can flip at WOT if the Pump Does not produce over 28K+ you are welcome to return it, or Exchange for the NEW 120% FCA..Or 150% Pump..If it blows Your solenoids off or O-rings this will prove the Pump will produce whatever it is commanded to do, You know My # I am committed to helping you. Just like any statement When You hear the other side.. that's when the controversy begins.

[cumminsDK]

Listen i have tuned close to a thousand trucks with several having more power than the truck in question, and as of yet have not melted an engine down, I might know how to "build a tune". To much timing advance, and extra long duration is what destroyes engines due to extreme cylinder pressure or high heat. Pressure is not the issue, a stock pump if disconnected will go to whatever pressure the relief valve is set at, at idle if everything is working properly. Huge horsepower gains are not had by raising rail pressure. Flow is the issue. With the new pump installed, and only increasing duration slightly as it was less than stock because of the size of injectors, the truck responded. Great! i thought. Then added a little more fuel (little at a time) and rail pressure began to drop. Desired which is what the ECM is commanding was 26,101 psi. Actual or what the pump is maintaining was dropping to 10,000 and as rpm came up the gap would close to about 21,000 or 5000psi difference at 3600 rpm. Remember this was barely more duration than the stock cummins CP3 would handle without dropping rail pressure. Also the regulator commanded duty cycle was at zero the whole time pressure was dropping so the ECM was commanding the FCA to 0 or max flow. As far as beans melting down an engine, Too many variables to say what caused it, i won't comment

[cumminsDK]

P.S. The exhaust only hazed under a WOT run once the turbo was spooled up, And the truck in question has been sold by the owner for other reasons and is no longer my problem as it now resides is TX

[DoghouseDiesel]

I believe It was My Pump...And as I mentioned You need to build a Tune..Regardless changing duration and adding HP it must be accompany by other changes..PIDs,Voltage, Max Values,ETC...You can command what You want..But unless you change the max threshold's it has NO value..that's Why its called tuning..And I said YOU NEED to Be-careful OR you will burn-down Your Motor...By the way that same Pump has burn-down 3 Motors. One engine was Beans..So don't you think he knows how to tune his Machines? it was a standalone. So do as You wish..NONE were running EFILive..If you like we have a 0 volts switch that you can flip at WOT if the Pump Does not produce over 28K+ you are welcome to return it, or Exchange for the NEW 120% FCA..Or 150% Pump..If it blows Your solenoids off or O-rings this will prove the Pump will produce whatever it is commanded to do, You know My # I am committed to helping you. Just like any statement When You hear the other side.. that's when the controversy begins.

Todd,

Please, don't comment on what you don't know.....

I was standing AT THE STARTING LINE, IN ATLANTA when he burned that motor up. Helped him push the truck up on the trailer.

When you run big injectors and a lot of nitrous, you make a lot of heat, REAL fast.....pretty simple.

Just stop commenting on the tuning part....you don't know anything about it. Sorry, I'm not even gonna be nice about it, YOU DON'T! You made this clear on the thread on Cummins Forum that you barely understand how things interrelate in the injection process, so PLEASE don't comment on tuning here. It WILL turn out bad.

[TCDiesel]

Sorry that's was What Happened..Pump was returned to ME ..and Ryan Himself stated he was going to install Duals and change the Tune..Whatever reason cause its failure may be unknown.. YOUR explanation May be correct, None the less, the facts are T&C pump was on the Truck..and as Far as things going For Me. Never Been Better, Never More encouragement form taking the stand I took.I ,John,Brady are all taking the same Stand, Run any Pump build By us beyond 4k and its fails NO warranty coverage ,AT OUR DISCRETION..its that simple..Run whatever You want, WE are NOT going to pay for the failures YOU tuners create. By the way I have yet to see incredible Power gains by running above 4k, with some history of longevity.

Whats the most interesting character about YOU Rich..YOU are always taring down someone who is not in YOUR wagon.You could be the best tuner in the world..It will NEVER make atonement for your demeaning attitude to others, that are not in harmony with YOUR will.

[TCDiesel]

CumminsDK.. it is possible that the pump was NOT performing... like I stated this has happen before. If you would have tore down the Pump and look at the modifications you would have notice its not even close to being a factory pump.Now the FCA could have been the problem.Again the same mod to many pumps all working.I just finish working with 1 owner after hrs of phone use..it turn out to be a collapsed pickup tube in the tank ugh.

[AdamRRT]

Gotta agree. The attitude is odd. Glad my life doesn't suck so bad that I take everything as an attack.

[GMPX]

Rarely do we have to close threads on here, so please leave the discussion on Pumps to CompD or Cummins Forum, we don't sell pumps.

Thanks,
Ross

[TCDiesel]

No Problem...Ross any guess when EFILive will be available for 03/05? Hopefully Before 2012.. I will be tuning our 06 Race Truck With EFILive,would also like to do My 05 and 03 this winter.

[DoghouseDiesel]

Todd,

I couldn't care less how things are for you. Hope they're great. Really do.

The only reason I seem to come off demeaning toward you is I'm one of the ones that doesn't buy into your snake oil.

I've had your stuff come into my shop and I've had it come right off because it wouldn't it even generate enough pressure to start the truck....and, NO, we wouldn't install it, I let the customer install at the shop because I refuse to use your stuff. I don't use your pumps, I don't sell your pumps, and I won't even install your pumps.....or any of your other items. I think they're snake oil. PERIOD! That's my stand.

If you don't like it, I don't care. My duty to my customers is to weed through the advertising BS.

And I have YET to hear ANYONE other than yourself make a comment on a pump run over 4K. Brady? Shane? Dan?...... Only you. Just you.

I told you before, I don't know how you make a good pump because you can't even explain the damn injection process correctly or how the events relate to each other.

If your intent was to come here and run off about your pumps, take your garbage back over to CF and sell it to someone that doesn't know better.

[TCDiesel]

If You say So......You just need to pick up the Phone and call Them ..Or better yet destroy one of their Pumps and see If they cover it. I don't make statements unless they are verified by private conversation(s). Now You are insulting Members of The Cummins forum...Business that bad you need to insult Members you don't even know? Trying to exalt yourself.

Please share with us some item or product that you have developed (Other than some Pipe Bending) although you are good at it, that will benefit the Diesel enthusiasts. Don’t give us the 1000 truck tune melody, that platform was build on somebody else hard work & Labor.

[cumminsDK]

your ignorance deserves applause...everyone clap for todd! Now could a MOD please end this pissing match

[FUBAR]

I still would like to know what turned out when Les put a bigger turbo on, or if he has yet on the particular truck...

[2007 5.9]

The customer has not upgraded as of yet. He can't stop smiling when he smashes the pedal...

The upgrade will happen, but timetable has become unclear.

~Les

[TCDiesel]

I did call the owner today..He was under the impression it was a 120 it was only a 60... So allot of this is simply just a mistaken communications, I built the the wrong Pump.

[comnrailpwr]

I dont have a dog in the fight or anything to add but thanks Todd for admitting your wrong doing on here.

Jake

[Dmaxink]

Now would be a perfect time to take this thread back on topic FWIW, thanks Todd for admitting wrong doing...now BACK ON TOPIC PLEASE...this is EFILIVE forum.

[GMPX]

No Problem...Ross any guess when EFILive will be available for 03/05? Hopefully Before 2012.. I will be tuning our 06 Race Truck With EFILive,would also like to do My 05 and 03 this winter.
03/05 won't be out this year Todd, 6.7L first, the 6.7L ECM comes in two flavours, the 2007 - 2009, then another 2010+, we should have some of the 2010+ ECM's here shortly to be able to see what the deal with them is.
I'm not saying the 03-05 is going on the back burner, I'm just being a realist that 6.7L is going to take a fair amount of time to conquer due to all the added complexity of the stricter emissions controls in place.

[TCDiesel]

Great...I will just Buy an 06-07 truck.. and tune..Our race 06 Truck did 837 with Banks BD Stack , it did perform well at Schieds..It will be Tune with EFILive for Next season ...I need some Tuning Time ...Jim is taking the 2 wheel (little Red) 06 to somebody in ID for Tuning (EFILive).But 1st we are going to upgrade the 120 Pump.Many know Jim was missing most of the Summer events due to the 2509 code that plagued us for Months,hopefully he will be back.. tuned and ready for next season.

[olboyowl]

I still would like to know what turned out when Les put a bigger turbo on, or if he has yet on the particular truck...


also cant wait to here how this turns out. i want to see how much power a stock fuel system will make with an aftermarket charger. what size charger was is he lookin at les?

[AdamRRT]

I know this doesn't mean much since it wasn't being tuned, and it's not EFI Live. But just so you guys have info to add to your collection of data. I switched from a stock turbo to my current one. Granted this dyno has consistently read 8-10% lower than dynos we've compared to. The tuning was primitive being a Smarty and I just wanted to see what it did as a comparison between the turbos both on TNT7, so it wasn't done to tune. Just to compare.

Dyno numbers:
Stock fuel, stock tune.
247hp, 478ft-lbs.

Stock turbo, Smarty TNT SW 7, RP 1 (stock), TQ 4, TI 2, Quad XZ2 rail pressure pressure setting 1 out of 4:
460hp, 935ft-lbs

Same electronic settings, after E.D. 62/68/12:
477hp, 953ft-lbs

Of course after the bigger tips I'm sure it's doing MUCH better. Undeniably so. I really want to upgrade the turbo or go with an S475 under my current turbo, add a modded CP3, and get an EFI Live tune on her.

[2007 5.9]

I know this doesn't mean much since it wasn't being tuned, and it's not EFI Live. But just so you guys have info to add to your collection of data. I switched from a stock turbo to my current one. Granted this dyno has consistently read 8-10% lower than dynos we've compared to. The tuning was primitive being a Smarty and I just wanted to see what it did as a comparison between the turbos both on TNT7, so it wasn't done to tune. Just to compare.

Dyno numbers:
Stock fuel, stock tune.
247hp, 478ft-lbs.

Stock turbo, Smarty TNT SW 7, RP 1 (stock), TQ 4, TI 2, Quad XZ2 rail pressure pressure setting 1 out of 4:
460hp, 935ft-lbs

Same electronic settings, after E.D. 62/68/12:
477hp, 953ft-lbs

Of course after the bigger tips I'm sure it's doing MUCH better. Undeniably so. I really want to upgrade the turbo or go with an S475 under my current turbo, add a modded CP3, and get an EFI Live tune on her.

That is typical...without proper fueling, a modded/larger turbo will net approx a 30hp increase over previous turbo.

Your finding are similar to mine...I dont expect to see huge gain when we upgrade this customers truck with a Super B Special....but it should put it over 500hp for sure.

Then again, '06 we did a while ago..66mm, stock sticks, TNT/TST stack did 607hp on our dyno...

~Les

[ScarabEpic22]

Great...I will just Buy an 06-07 truck.. and tune..Our race 06 Truck did 837 with Banks BD Stack , it did perform well at Schieds..It will be Tune with EFILive for Next season ...I need some Tuning Time ...Jim is taking the 2 wheel (little Red) 06 to somebody in ID for Tuning (EFILive).But 1st we are going to upgrade the 120 Pump.Many know Jim was missing most of the Summer events due to the 2509 code that plagued us for Months,hopefully he will be back.. tuned and ready for next season.

IdahoRob down in Boise? And by blaine, do you mean Blaine, WA?

[olboyowl]

That is typical...without proper fueling, a modded/larger turbo will net approx a 30hp increase over previous turbo.

Your finding are similar to mine...I dont expect to see huge gain when we upgrade this customers truck with a Super B Special....but it should put it over 500hp for sure.

Then again, '06 we did a while ago..66mm, stock sticks, TNT/TST stack did 607hp on our dyno...

~Les


will be interesting to see.