How about a transmission tuning tutorial!

[Redline Motorsports]

I would definately like to know more about dialing in the automatic transmissions for performance improvements. Items like firming up shifts, changing shift rpms, etc....

There seems to be quite a few parameters for the transmission yet some are not ones that tyically need to be touched. I am still a bit unsure of the best way to firm up the shifts as well as properly adjust shift points. Seems like a sticky or a tutorial would be kind of nice.

Any thoughts??

Howard

[Chris81]

I agree, I would really like some more info on this as well.

[Wasted Income]

Yup, I agree

[joecar]

I don't have a tutorial written, but some basic steps that could be included for daily driver usage (feel free to add, delete, modify, correct, increase knowledge):

a. Increase shift pressures 5-10%.
b. Decrease shift times to aorund 0.3s.
c. Decrease torque reduction at each shift by 5-10%.
d. Adjust the upshift and downshift curves, BUT always keep the upshift curve higher than the downshift curve (i.e. at each TPS value, keep the upshift speed greater than the downshift speed); "hysteresis" prevents gear hunting.

Go for a drive, logging various trans pids
(vss, rpm, tps, map/maf, torque, tft, pcs, gear, shift times, shift errors, various tstates).

Check "feel" of each shift (harsh, firm, soft, sloppy); harsh or sloppy is no good;
if it's too firm:
if line pressure pid shows high pressure at lower throttle positions, then reduce pressure for that shift, otherwise increase torque reduction;
if it's too soft:
if line pressure pid shows low pressure at higher throttle positions, then increase pressure for that shift, otherwise decrease torque reduction;
If you break tire traction, how severe is it (little chirp at medium throttle is okay, big spin loose is not okay)...?
You want firm positive shift, not harsh super firm jerking shift.
Torque reduction curves have a big effect on shift feel.

Are shifts occurring in the specified shift times...?
Compare this with time taken for shift initiation to rpm drop; does it match...?
If shifts are slower, then pressure may be too low (or trans worn out);
If shifts are faster, then pressure may be too high;
watchout:
PCM may try to adapt by altering pressure;
if pressure goes too low, clutches/band slip and burn;
if pressure goes too high, pump wears out prematurely;
You want shifts to be fairly reasonably quick, not overly quick, and not long drawn out.

Does it shift too early or too late...?
if too early, increase shift MPH;
if too late decrease shift MPH;
you may like it to hold longer thru each gear (reduces fuel economy, increase gearset wear);
you may like it to sequence thru gears quickly (increases fuel economy, reduce gearset wear);

Is WOT shift at the RPM you want...?
Adjust WOT RPM and test it out;
it may shift at a higher RPM, so watch out that it doesn't hit rev limiter.
Note: WOT shift occurs as soon as both WOT MPH and WOT RPM are met.

The ideas behind all of this:
1. slow sloppy shifts allow clutches and band to slip during the shift, causing wear and heat.
2. quick harsh hard shifts fatigue the hard parts, the driveline, the axle, and wears the tires and engine mounts.
3. high line pressure wears the pump prematurely;
4. excessive line pressure may damage the accumulator pistons and clutch/band servo pistons (and may blow the snap rings out of the ends of the cluctch packs), and may crack the case.
5. quick firm shifts reduce the amount of time the clutch/band slips during the shift
(the releasing component ramps down (slips during this), the applying component ramps up (slips during this);
reducing the time taken for this reduces slip which in turn reduces heat and wear).
6. overheated atf causes friction material to go bad and o-rings to go hard (and leak),
and overheated atf loses its properties/qualities.
7. nice quick crisp shifts make the car feel like a "performance" car;
the conservative factory feel makes the car feel like a slow lumbering land yacht, and wears clutches/bands earlier; although in recent years the factory increased line pressure slightly and uses torque reduction to make the shift sloppy (which protects entire drivetrain).

As with anything good (or bad), don't overdo it; don't overdo it; don't overdo it.

Drag racing requires different characteristics, a stall converter, a shift kit, some reinforced hard parts, a bigger axle, bigger U-joints; of course, everyone already knows this.

If you drag race and/or run a stall converter, it is a really good idea to install an atf cooler.

Edit: Do not alter the PCS table; this table tells the PCM what pressures the PCS produces as a function of current and temp.
If for some reason you adjusted the screw in the back of the PCS, you will need to adjust this table, but this is difficult.
It's best not to alter either the PCS table nor the PCS screw, unless there's a very good reason.

[joecar]

Too bad there are no tuning parameters for TCC ramp up/down.

[bink]

Nice post, joecar. Thanks!

Cheers,
joel

[Redline Motorsports]

Wow! Great start!

Maybe if we get enough input we can put together a step by step tutorial.

We definately should set it up by level of tranny tuning needed. This could be a Level one tune for a slight firmer shift and raise the shift points to a real aggressive Level Three that could be for a high hp auto.

Kind of the same way when tuning a bone stock car vs. a head/cam car. Some parameters in the bone stock tuning process as not even touched as they would be in the more aggressive setups.

HT

[joecar]

Thanks.
Good ideas.
We need to organize it and tidy it up and think up all angles.
:beer:

Edit: I added 2 edits to the above description.

[caver]

Dont get to many auto cars but so far I find the g/box kicks down to easily in normal mode so I have changed the tps kick down points while leaving the rpm points alone.
In performance mode I change the upshift rpm's so the car revs closer to the limiter makes a big difference as the motor stays on the boil better.
Reduced torque reduction by 50% I would'nt change it that much at sea level.
Still dont get tyre chirp so some more experimenting is in order. Will have to wait for another auto car.

[GMPX]

Too bad there are no tuning parameters for TCC ramp up/down.

Oh, no more requests please :help2: .
Your post was a good read, there, tutorial is done. ;)

Cheers,
Ross

[Black02SS]

Thanks.
Good ideas.
We need to organize it and tidy it up and think up all angles.
:beer:

Edit: I added 2 edits to the above description.
For a temporary solution, I have taken your post and made it a PDF and hosted it for others to download. Figure until it gets all tidy and stuff at least it can be saved easily. If you have a problem with this, I'll be happy to remove it or if you like it I can edit it as you wish. :cheers:

A4 Tutorial by joecar (http://black02ss.dyndns.org/EFILive%20Tutorials/A4Tutorial.pdf)
Must have adobe acrobat to view.

PS - I didn't see any mention of if a shift kit is installed. I have always read to put the shift times to 0 to disable adaptive shift learning

[Redline Motorsports]

This is all great stuff! Black, thanks for pdfin' that info. I also think that it is important that we also elaborate on what the parameters are actually controlling when providing "tricks" and "settings". Also knowing safe ranges of parameters so we can tell if we are getting off course with the adjustments. I thought I had read in the past where some settings could destroy the pump if moved to far. Warnings like this should also be addressed.

I have noticed that the "torque reduction" seems to be a big factor for firming up the shifts.............if I where to just adjust the TR %, will it firm up all the shifts without any other changes?

Howard

[Black02SS]

Anytime!! If we can make things easier I am all for it. You guys sort it out and I'll make it up and host it.

[joecar]

For a temporary solution, I have taken your post and made it a PDF and hosted it for others to download. Figure until it gets all tidy and stuff at least it can be saved easily. If you have a problem with this, I'll be happy to remove it or if you like it I can edit it as you wish. :cheers:

A4 Tutorial by joecar (http://black02ss.dyndns.org/EFILive%20Tutorials/A4Tutorial.pdf)
Must have adobe acrobat to view.

PS - I didn't see any mention of if a shift kit is installed. I have always read to put the shift times to 0 to disable adaptive shift learning
Chad, thanks, I do appreciate your help :cheers: .
I don't have PDF tools (but I do have various C/C++ cross-compilers/assemblers for x86, 68K and PPC... :muahaha:).

My F-bird doesn't seem to do adaptive shift learning, so I can't say much about disabling this;
someone else knows this so I'll let them chime in.

Cheers
Joe

[joecar]

..if I where to just adjust the TR %, will it firm up all the shifts without any other changes?
Howard,

For safety, bump up shift pressure some (to reduce clutch/band slip), and reduce shift time to around 0.3s;
for street use, don't overdo shift pressure.
Then adjusting TR down will increase the firm feel.

[Black02SS]

What do you think about shift kits joe?

[joecar]

What do you think about shift kits joe?
Some are good, some are bad; you have to read users' comments.

You're looking for firmed up shifts and prolonged transmission life.

A good one will increase pressure and flow to the apply components and comes with bigger 2-4 servo piston to utilize this.

Some shift kits require the stock PCM trans. calibration (to avoid blowing line pressure too high); this is a very important point.

Street use under 400+ ftlb, you can be okay without a shift kit;
just program the trans calibration to be firm (not harsh) and be sure there's no slip and no jerking.

Drag racing, or over 400+ ftlb, you will need a shift kit and may need some other parts also
(improved band and clutches, and if even more torque, then hard parts also).

Before PCM's controlled transmissions, shift kits were a must if you made any torque, and to prolong life of trans.
There was no other controlled and safe way to bump up line pressure and reduce clutch slip during shifts.

Now with PCM's, the factory calibration has line pressure set some higher (to prevent slipping/burning) but also has a lot of torque reduction (to protect drivetrain conservatively to avoid warranty repairs).

Some shift kits are for race only (super firm, no prisoners) and require reinforced trans hard parts, heavy duty driveshaft and rear axle and engine mounts.

I don't have a shift kit, my F-bird is almost stock; when I worked for my dad in his trans. shop in Sydney we installed a few shift kits, and they did well; but that was before PCM's controlled transmissions (...gives you an idea of my age... :banana:).

[Black02SS]

I have read and heard it said that if you have a shift kit, to remove learning by setting the shift speed to 0 to disable it. My theory on this is you bought it for a reason, why have the PCM counteract what it is designed to do. (I have a M6). :)

[joecar]

I have read and heard it said that if you have a shift kit, to remove learning by setting the shift speed to 0 to disable it. My theory on this is you bought it for a reason, why have the PCM counteract what it is designed to do. (I have a M6). :) I heard that too and it makes sense, you don't want the shift kit and the PCM trying to chase each other;
setting shift time to zero allows the shift kit to correctly apply intended pressure without PCM trying to mess it up.

Cheers,
Joe
:wave:

[joecar]

Oh, no more requests please :help2: .
Your post was a good read, there, tutorial is done. ;)

Cheers,
Ross Sorry Ross, I was just thinking out loud (...blabbering to myself as I usually do... :hihi: ),
I didn't mean to overwhelm your already overworked schedule.

Cheers
Joe
:beer:

[joecar]

TCC apply/release:
The TCC Apply and Release curves show a large step to 256 MPH at around 80% TPS; this is to have the TCC released above 80% throttle to prevent the TCC friction surface from burning out (there's only one surface); too much torque will overcome the TCC and make it slip.

WOT MPH and WOT RPM upshift:
Keep in mind that WOT upshift requires that both WOT MPH and WOT RPM be met; set the WOT RPM to what you want to shift at (maybe subtract 200 RPM from it), calculate the MPH this corresponds to, and subtract say 10 MPH from this, and set this as the WOT MPH; this allows the MPH condition to be met first, and then the RPM condition triggers upshift; log data and fine tune.

Line pressure and PCS pressure:
The PCS controls "Torque Signal" pressure which acts on the end of the Boost Valve which, via a spring, assists the Pressure Regulator valve; so while PCS pressure may range upto 95 psi, line pressure may range upto 220-250 psi (varies with different model of 4L60E and with shift kit); so if you have a shift kit installed, use Scan Tool Bi-Dir mode to command PCS current and observe line pressure tap using pressure gauge (remember as PCS current goes down, PCS pressure goes up); this gives you an idea of how line pressure ranges, and you can modify the Shift Pressure tables accordingly.

I do aplogize that I did not include the table id numbers, but soon I will do this and clean up the document.

Edit: Fixed some typos

[Redline Motorsports]

Joe,

Thanks for all your input. Maybe the EFI Live boys can put this in a tutorial after we spend a couple more weeks of info gathering.

I was always wondering the best way to get the WOT shifts worked out. It makes sense to set the MPH first to a MPH that you know you will hit for sure and then set the RPM for the actual shift point. Do I understand that correctly?

I would like to know a bit more as to which TM tables can get tweaked to firm up the shifts just a bit. Maybe we can do a step by step format similiar to how we doing PCM tuning. Jesse has me trained to start from the bottom and work up hitting every table on the way that needs initial adjustments and then go back to the ones that need adjusting for timing and fuel specifics.

Howard

[joecar]

It makes sense to set the MPH first to a MPH that you know you will hit for sure and then set the RPM for the actual shift point. Do I understand that correctly?Yes, that's correct; log a test run (at the strip, no doubt) and fine tune the WOT RPM points in each gear (not going to get to 4th).


I would like to know a bit more as to which TM tables can get tweaked to firm up the shifts just a bit Briefly, tweak the following:

a. shift pressures: increase tables D0701, D0702, D0703 by no more than 10%-25% above stock;
if you increase further, pump has to work harder and wear life is reduced;

b. desired shift times: reduce tables D1108, D1109, D1110 to around 0.2s-0.3s;

c. torque reduction: reduce tables D0801, D0802, D0803;
keep reducing these until you start getting tire chirp at 60-80% throttle (take your pick) on 1-2 and 2-3 shifts (if you can); if you reduce TR any further, then drivetrain will suffer (and rear end becomes uncontrollable :banana: ... if you reduce TR all the way to 0%, each shift will be brutal... :banana::banana: ).


You may want to make the above changes less pronounced at low TPS, and more pronounced at high TPS.

Log and verify the following:
1. PCS (psi) is not high at light throttle nor low at heavy throttle;
2. Last Shift Time (s) matches the tables;
3. TFT is staying below 190°F;

Not doing c. will make a. seem to not have effect.

If after a. and c. shift is not firming up, you need to monitor line pressure using gauge attached to tap on side of case, do Scan Tool Bi-Directional PCS test and compare gauge readings with spec (50-230 psi); if appreciably below this, trans. has pressure leak, and clutches/band will slip if significant torque is applied.

Cheers,
Joe
:wave:

[zrx1200]

how / do you make power mode full manual and econ remain auto.? is this possible or do you need a shift kit

[ringram]

Hi all, Black02SS Ive taken your helpful idea and included all the new info from Joecar in this post and created a new PDF located here. Tutorial (http://www.efilive.co.uk/Autotrans%20tutorial.pdf)

[joecar]

Ringram,
Chad,

I can't thank you both enough for packaging it up nice (with my avatar too, nice touch);
my schedules at home (Mrs) and at work (boss) are insanely out of control, so I appreciate all the help.

And thanks also to the people that have asked questions, you made me write it down.

Regards and Cheers
Joe
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

[Black02SS]

Awsome work guys!!!

[joecar]

Something that was brought to my attention by a fellow EFILive user...

When in SD mode, log the pid GM.TRQENG "Delivered Engine Torque" and make sure it looks sensible:
a. it should never go negative,
b. it should follow TPS, MAP, MAF in terms of engine output

(i.e. GM.TRQENG should look sane wrt to what engine is doing).

If it fails a. or b. above, then this is an indication that the airflow calculations are incorrect (I'm not sure exactly how the torque is calculated from airflow).

The problem is that the PCM may now be commanding in-gear line pressure too low allowing slipage which leads to failure very quickly.

So pay attention to this.

[jfpilla]

Nice job. This will get a lot of hits.

You might consider adding this:
If you have installed a shiftkit, you should 0 out shift times. This will disable tranmission adaptive learning. I would 0 torque management, also.

[joecar]

Nice job. This will get a lot of hits.

You might consider adding this:
If you have installed a shiftkit, you should 0 out shift times. This will disable tranmission adaptive learning. I would 0 torque management, also.

Yes, feel free to add that too, and any helpful information.

I haven't put a shift kit in a PCM controlled trans., so I don't have direct experience with the effects of this on adaptive learning.

I would caution about removing TM althogether since it can be hard on the drivetrain (would require stronger parts in the trans. and on back).

If the trans. is fairly stock, I would reduce TM/TR some amount, but not all the way.

If trans. is built up, and driver doesn't mind the feel, then there's quite a few people who have zeroed out TM/TR with no problem.

[jfpilla]

Yes, feel free to add that too, and any helpful information.

I haven't put a shift kit in a PCM controlled trans., so I don't have direct experience with the effects of this on adaptive learning.

I would caution about removing TM althogether since it can be hard on the drivetrain (would require stronger parts in the trans. and on back).

If the trans. is fairly stock, I would reduce TM/TR some amount, but not all the way.

If trans. is built up, and driver doesn't mind the feel, then there's quite a few people who have zeroed out TM/TR with no problem.

Good points about TM. Heavy clutches and an hardened output shaft, at least, would be good. If a hi stall converter is used it will soften the blows.
Before I knew about adaptive learning I notice that the reprogrammed shifts were getting softer. It was over a long period. Months. It's been at least a year since zeroing shift times and no changes have happened.

[joecar]

Before I knew about adaptive learning I notice that the reprogrammed shifts were getting softer. It was over a long period. Months. It's been at least a year since zeroing shift times and no changes have happened. Good piece of information;
this must happen because the trans is not aware that the pressure/flow is supposed to be at the increased level with the shift kit, so it tries its best to learn the shifts back down.
Interesting.

[Redline Motorsports]

Guys,

I am so glad this thread lives on! Nice job in gathering the info! I can see that this tutorial will be a work in progress. I happen to have a couple A4's in the shop for packages and I look forward in applying these lessons.

Its amazing that the tranny calibrating can be as exercising as the PCM tuning.

Howard

[Black02SS]

Guys,

I am so glad this thread lives on! Nice job in gathering the info! I can see that this tutorial will be a work in progress. I happen to have a couple A4's in the shop for packages and I look forward in applying these lessons.

Its amazing that the tranny calibrating can be as exercising as the PCM tuning.

Howard
Sure can. I have had a lot of stock or semi-stock cars that just want tranny adjustments. World of difference from the stock settings.

[ringram]

10 4, will update with the extra comments and change the PDF (http://www.efilive.co.uk/Autotrans%20tutorial.pdf) now.

[jfpilla]

You might want to reconsider recommending synthetic fluid. Dexron lll ATF non synthetic for warranty.
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=451062&highlight=tranny+fluid

[joecar]

You might want to reconsider recommending synthetic fluid. Dextron lll ATF non synthetic for warranty.
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=451062&highlight=tranny+fluid
Could be...

I'm using Mobil 1 Synthetic Dexron III (which meets the GM specifications including the friction holding characteristics).

I haven't had any problems with it, and I push my car hard at least once a day, but that's my trans. with my calibration/tune with me driving, and I change my ATF and filter every 15K miles (including TC flush).

I can't say with any authority, but I suspect those people's trans. may have already had a problem regardless of fluid, of course I may be proven totally wrong in saying this; my opinion only.

You're right, I should not be recommending synthetic ATF.

Edit: I'm wondering if those people had already firmed up their shifts (pressures and times)....?

[joecar]

This is from the Amsoil webpage...


2001 PONTIAC FIREBIRD 5.7L 8-cyl VIN Code G
LUBRICANTS & FLUIDS

Engine Oil
Grade 1......API*
Series 2000 Synthetic 0W-30 Motor Oil (http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/tso.aspx)
SAE 5W-30 Synthetic Motor Oil (http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/asl.aspx)
SAE 10W-30 Synthetic Motor Oil (http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/atm.aspx)
SAE 5W-30 XL Synthetic Motor Oil (http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/xlf.aspx)
Above 0°F......10W-30
All Temps......5W-30[1]

Manual Transmission,.....AF3
Synthetic Automatic Transmission Fluid (http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/atf.aspx)
Torque-Drive™ Synthetic Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATD) (http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/atd.aspx)

Automatic Transmission.....AF3
Synthetic Automatic Transmission Fluid (http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/atf.aspx)
Torque-Drive™ Synthetic Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATD) (http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/atd.aspx)

Standard Differential, Rear .....GL-5[2]
75W-90
Severe Gear 75W-90 (http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/svg.aspx)
SAE 75W-90 Synthetic Gear Lube (http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/fgr.aspx)

Controlled Slip Differential, Rear .....GL-5*[3][4]
75W-90
Severe Gear 75W-90 (http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/svg.aspx)

This is unlike the statement made by one person that 'Amsoil' recommends against. :nixweiss:

But anyway, I'm on a search now to see what people have to say about this....:bash:

[driver456]

I use amsoil automatic trans fluid,No problems so far...............Paul

[BowlingSS]

I have always used non-synthetic fluid (http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/atf.aspx) because of what I have read on other forums. Maybe they were wrong.:exactly:

Bill

[joecar]

I have always used non-synthetic fluid (http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/atf.aspx) because of what I have read on other forums. Maybe they were wrong.:exactly:

Bill Bill,

I clicked on your red link and it takes me here: http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/atf.aspx


Anyway, I say the best fluid to use is the one you're comfortable with.

Joe
:cheers:

[Jphdg]

Has the tutorial been removed from here?
It is a dead link. :help2:

I looked in the tutorial section but maybe I was not looking hard enough.
Anyone got the latest transmission tutorial from this thread handy?

I am running a strengthened 4L60E transmission with a 3500 hi-stall and find I notice when at light throttle the shift from 2-3 a little sloppy, or somewhat sometimes jurky and just does not feel smooth when input torque is approx 68nm. Give it some foot and it shifts good. All other gears are good.
If I am on 'very' light throttle and low speed it seems fine also. Just seems to have a little prob at about the 60-75nm mark on the 2-3 shift.

could this possibly be a too lower line pressure for this torque range on the 2-3 shift? I have found for some reason the base pressure for 2-3 {D0702} is all set to 0kpa between 0 to 80nm and then jumps to 13.8 at the 100nm row.

Could I safely try increasing these slightly above 0 say between 5 - 12kpa respectively with evenly increased increments and see if this helps for torque values above 40nm through to 80nm rows?

Note: I checked TR and is already set to 0 at these torque input values in concern.

Is there anything important I should also know about the Low Pressure Adjust tables?

Also with Desired Shift Times, were these the tables (such as {D1109} 2-3) recommended to set to 0.0 with a built transmission to prevent the adaptive learning? or should these not be touched?

Any info greatly appreciated for this newbie :cheers:

So far EFILive and this forum = much fun :D

[ringram]

Sorry my broadband has died. Ill email it to Tordne perhaps he can host on his site!?

[joecar]

I am running a strengthened 4L60E transmission with a 3500 hi-stall and find I notice when at light throttle the shift from 2-3 a little sloppy, or somewhat sometimes jurky and just does not feel smooth when input torque is approx 68nm. Give it some foot and it shifts good. All other gears are good.
If I am on 'very' light throttle and low speed it seems fine also. Just seems to have a little prob at about the 60-75nm mark on the 2-3 shift.

could this possibly be a too lower line pressure for this torque range on the 2-3 shift? I have found for some reason the base pressure for 2-3 {D0702} is all set to 0kpa between 0 to 80nm and then jumps to 13.8 at the 100nm row.

Could I safely try increasing these slightly above 0 say between 5 - 12kpa respectively with evenly increased increments and see if this helps for torque values above 40nm through to 80nm rows?See my shift pressure tables below, these are about on the upper limit of how far I would adjust them, some people would go further
(sorry, I didn't convert to Nm...).


Note: I checked TR and is already set to 0 at these torque input values in concern.Do you get chirp on 1-2 and 2-3...?


Is there anything important I should also know about the Low Pressure Adjust tables?These are used by adaptive learning and my understanding is that they limit the amount of adjustment that AL makes, but I haven't spent enough time playing with these so I don't know.


Also with Desired Shift Times, were these the tables (such as {D1109} 2-3) recommended to set to 0.0 with a built transmission to prevent the adaptive learning? or should these not be touched? Built trans or shift kit, the consensus is 0.0s for these.


So far EFILive and this forum = much fun :D That has to be an understatement... :D :cheers:

[jfpilla]

Bill,

I clicked on your red link and it takes me here: http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/atf.aspx


Anyway, I say the best fluid to use is the one you're comfortable with.

Joe
:cheers:
I just had my tranny upgraded and the builder insisted I use:
Allison TranSynd trans fluid.= synthetic
Amsoil makes a similar type for less $.

[joecar]

I just had my tranny upgraded and the builder insisted I use:
Allison TranSynd trans fluid.= synthetic
Amsoil makes a similar type for less $.
Your trusted trans. builder insisted on either of these, interesting... :cheers:

I use M1 mostly because I can get it at a moment's notice at the local AutoZone, but I was considering Amsoil, and I like Amsoil as a company better than Mobil (...maybe I should become a distributor...).

[BowlingSS]

Sorry my broadband has died. Ill email it to Tordne perhaps he can host on his site!?

I can host it if Tordne can not. E-Mail me the latest version and will get it copied tonight.

Bill
:beer: :wave:

[jfpilla]

Your trusted trans. builder insisted on either of these, interesting... :cheers:

I use M1 mostly because I can get it at a moment's notice at the local AutoZone, but I was considering Amsoil, and I like Amsoil as a company better than Mobil (...maybe I should become a distributor...).

He insisted on the Allison Transynd. But said Amsoil's, "New AMSOIL Torque-Drive Synthetic ATF Provides Excellent Protection for Allison® Transmissions", was good too. Since he warrantees the trans for a year and GM doesn't care anymore it's easy. I thought you would be interested.

[Jphdg]

See my shift pressure tables below, these are about on the upper limit of how far I would adjust them, some people would go further
(sorry, I didn't convert to Nm...).

Do you get chirp on 1-2 and 2-3...?

These are used by adaptive learning and my understanding is that they limit the amount of adjustment that AL makes, but I haven't spent enough time playing with these so I don't know.

Built trans or shift kit, the consensus is 0.0s for these.

That has to be an understatement... :D :cheers:

Thanks guys for comments, and I look forward to have a read of the tuturial when it comes around again.

I converted my tables over to PSI / Ft-LBS and have found they are considerably lower and a lot more conservative than yours joecar.

I noted yours are much higher than mine in the lower torque range as well, hence may be why I find the 2-3 shift in particular a little sloppy at low engine torque compared to higher power rows.

I find I have trouble holding traction, even if I ease the throttle on from 0 to WOT before the 1-2 change. The cam and hi-stall with a 3.73 ratio are definately to blame for that. :D Usually it spins with a violent roar and will hit 2nd quite firm and really send the back end out, however if lead into 2nd without spin and then mash it, it does not chirp 2-3 usually if above the kick back speed and just throws you back at 3500rpm and drops through the gears nice but I think my converter softens much of the blows somewhat to tickle the back end again on a 2-3 upshift.

I guess this weekend I might up my pressures a little at a time and see if it improves things. I understand you must avoid above 90psi in any gear on any part of the tables as you cause wear to the pump or could blow out the valves in the transmission. I think mine are very conservative as max seems to be at only 72PSI in the performance mode at max engine torque in the 2-3 shift base pressure table, and 78psi for max torque in 3-4.
1-2 are lower again, but it seems fairly punchy anyway there and quite fine.

So I guess I might aim for my max to be no more than 80psi for high torque values and just increase them more in the lower ranges particularly from just below where I am noticing the sloppy shifting and see if it improves things there.

:cheers:

[joecar]

I find I have trouble holding traction, even if I ease the throttle on from 0 to WOT before the 1-2 change. The cam and hi-stall with a 3.73 ratio are definately to blame for that. :D Usually it spins with a violent roar and will hit 2nd quite firm and really send the back end out, however if lead into 2nd without spin and then mash it, it does not chirp 2-3 usually if above the kick back speed and just throws you back at 3500rpm and drops through the gears nice but I think my converter softens much of the blows somewhat to tickle the back end again on a 2-3 upshift.If you wanted to control the violent spin, try adding some torque reduction back in on the 1-2 shift and see what happens (TR kicks in for about 0.2s on upshift).


I guess this weekend I might up my pressures a little at a time and see if it improves things. I understand you must avoid above 90psi in any gear on any part of the tables as you cause wear to the pump or could blow out the valves in the transmission. I think mine are very conservative as max seems to be at only 72PSI in the performance mode at max engine torque in the 2-3 shift base pressure table, and 78psi for max torque in 3-4.
1-2 are lower again, but it seems fairly punchy anyway there and quite fine.Some people can get away with cranking those pressures up alot, but not everyone is so lucky; you have to watch out on a built unit or with a shift kit as these already have the line pressure upped.


So I guess I might aim for my max to be no more than 80psi for high torque values and just increase them more in the lower ranges particularly from just below where I am noticing the sloppy shifting and see if it improves things there.That sounds good; make sure you log after making any changes:

SAE.VSS
SAE.RPM
SAE.TP
SAE.MAP
SAE.MAF
SAE.ECT
SAE.IAT
GM.DYNAIR
GM.TFT
GM.GEAR
GM.TCCMODE
GM.SHIFTLAST
GM.SHIFTDELAY
GM.TFMPRS
GM.TRQENG

Let us know how you go and post some log chart images.

Regards
Joe
:cheers:

[joecar]

He insisted on the Allison Transynd. But said Amsoil's, "New AMSOIL Torque-Drive Synthetic ATF Provides Excellent Protection for Allison® Transmissions", was good too. Since he warrantees the trans for a year and GM doesn't care anymore it's easy. I thought you would be interested.Yes, that is interesting, thanks. :cheers:

[joecar]

GM.TRQENG allows you to link from scan log to tune table so you can see where on the pressure tables you're at.

[ringram]

Ok, so I forgot you can attach files to posts now..
Anyway here is the magic document with most of the info from this thread.

Ill add in Joecar's shift pressure pics and update the doco in the next few days. In the meantime, go and break traction with this doc.

[Jphdg]

Thanks again guys, Appreciate the advice and comments. I shell grab that PDF and have a read and will see how things go this weekend.

:cheers:

[oztracktuning]

I have a stock transmission with Transmax Z and im using a Yank SS3600 converter.

I want to setup just a drag transmission tune.
At present im considering just going the full hog
Full line pressure 662Kpa 96psi
zero shift times
no torque management

I have been racing it often at about 0.2-0.3
and 91psi

I assume at 11.781 with 1.61 60 footer i am making the top of the table
so i have the last 4 cells in the tran pressure table set to the highest pressure

[jfpilla]

WOT trans pressure is set at the factory for A4's. It can only be changed mechanically. When you change pressure you are changing part throttle pressure only.

[oztracktuning]

My TRQENG is lucky if its 283Nm near my change points - taken during a log in 11.768 run.

[joecar]

See this diagram (scroll down to Common Hydraulic Functions): showpost.php?p=21221&postcount=5 (http://forum.efilive.com/showpost.php?p=21221&postcount=5)


It shows that the PCS solenoid does not directly control "Line" pressure, but rather it regulates "Torque Signal" pressure [from AFL pressure] which assists the Pressure Regulator valve via the Boost valve/spring (see items 1a, 1b, 1c).

(the AFL valve/sping limits the pressure going into the PCS solenoid to a max of 96-100 psi)

So PCS pressure in the range 0-96 psi indirectly controls Line pressure in the range 50-230 psi.

The PCS solenoid has a calibration screw in the back of it;
turning this screw in 1/8 turn will firm everything up quite a bit, so if you do this watch out,
use a pressure gauge on the Line tap (side of case above shift linkage) to monitor Line pressure.

A more correct name for PCS/TFM pressure is "Torque Signal pressure".

[joecar]

My TRQENG is lucky if its 283Nm near my change points - taken during a log in 11.768 run.In the pressure tables, make sure you're at 90+ psi starting from well below 283Nm/208fllb.

208ftlb, that's real low, should be getting 350+ftlb, did I convert that correctly...?

What is your GM.DYNAIR like (does it climb to 300+g/s as RPM climbs during WOT)...?

What do your VE and spark tables look like...?

If you have a log showing the following pids please post a pic:
SAE.VSS
SAE.RPM
SAE.TP
SAE.MAP
SAE.MAF
SAE.ECT
SAE.IAT
GM.DYNAIR
GM.TFT
GM.GEAR
GM.TCCMODE
GM.SHIFTLAST
GM.SHIFTDELAY
GM.TFMPRS
GM.TRQENG

Is traction control kicking in...?
Is B1901 is set too low...?

[oztracktuning]

The GMTRQ is weirdly low it seems.
my g/cylinder looks normal and my VE table is set to give 330g/s or so at WOT at full rpm. Timing is giving 28.5 deg. In the middle of the gear in logs the highest GMTRQ i see is 319Nm which is still miles too low.

[ytry]

I'm new to all this programming stuff and I have to say hello to all of you, and thanks for all the good information on this post. I have been trying to get my 1-2 shift a little less. When if shifts it breaks the tires loose and I get all over the road, this has happened at the track as well. I will try some of the things on this post to see if I can get it better. Thanks again for all the good info..:wave:

What would be considered to high for the shift pressure??

[joecar]

I'm new to all this programming stuff and I have to say hello to all of you, and thanks for all the good information on this post. I have been trying to get my 1-2 shift a little less. When if shifts it breaks the tires loose and I get all over the road, this has happened at the track as well. I will try some of the things on this post to see if I can get it better. Thanks again for all the good info..:wave:

What would be considered to high for the shift pressure??
ytry, hi there and welcome... :wave:

One of the things you can try is adding some torque reduction on the 1-2 shift (table D0801), see if that makes any difference.

Regards
Joe
:cheers:

[oztracktuning]

I just logged torque tonight again
and got some peak readings (just two brief blasts of WOT)

TRQENG 416ftlb
TRQTRANS 419ftlb

but in the metric sections these values were shown
TRQENG 307Nm
TRQTRANS 309Nm

Now somethings not right here Nm is meant to bigger
using the usual 1.355 x factor

It should be around
564Nm which sounds like a sensible number. Why is EFIlive doing this?

[joecar]

I just logged torque tonight again
and got some peak readings (just two brief blasts of WOT)

TRQENG 416ftlb
TRQTRANS 419ftlb

but in the metric sections these values were shown
TRQENG 307Nm
TRQTRANS 309Nm

Now somethings not right here Nm is meant to bigger
using the usual 1.355 x factor

It should be around
564Nm which sounds like a sensible number. Why is EFIlive doing this? Let's play with the numbers...

416 * 1.356 = 564
416 / 1.356 = 307

Hmmm... it would appear that EFILive is dividing instead of multiplying to get the torque numbers.

[ytry]

ok thanks for the info, what % would be safe to start with?

[joecar]

ok thanks for the info, what % would be safe to start with?Your Torque Reduction D0801 is 0% now...?
Try setting it to 20% and adjust from there.

[ytry]

Yes it is 0 I will try that and get back with you , thanks again for the help..

[oztracktuning]

How is TRQENG calculated ? Just wondering if its a valuable way of measuring gains in power??

Today mine did 440ftlb = 596Nm.
I know a while ago it never could go above 432ftlb in the logs ie 585Nm

[joecar]

How is TRQENG calculated ? Just wondering if its a valuable way of measuring gains in power??

Today mine did 440ftlb = 596Nm.
I know a while ago it never could go above 432ftlb in the logs ie 585NmIt's the PCM's way of computing torque; I don't know how accurate it is; the PCM uses dynair and advance (among other things) to compute it; PCM uses it to index the trans. tables.

Was anything different today that you think could be responsible for the relative gain...?

[oztracktuning]

It was just a bit cooler
and yesterdays log was at a higher altitude as well.

How can i simply get the Nm displaying properly. I cant find any files in the config area that i can edit to fix it???

[joecar]

It was just a bit cooler
and yesterdays log was at a higher altitude as well.

How can i simply get the Nm displaying properly. I cant find any files in the config area that i can edit to fix it???Paul pm'd me saying he's on it. :cheers:

[ringram]

Use ft/lb :)

[ytry]

Ok I have turned my tr down and it shifts a lot better, just cherps the tires, however now i'm getting 2.5 kr? is there a timing factor i need to set as well?:master: this happens when i let off the gas not WOT..ok also here is a log with 2.9 kr here is what i have so far. I had pcmforless tune my pcm and now that i have EFI live i can see what he done, he had all the tr to 0's line pressure was up to 80.000000 here is what it is now.base pre, 1-2 shift
0.000000
0.000000
0.000000
0.000000
0.000000
0.000000
3.000000
9.000000
10.203125
14.281250
18.359375
22.437500
26.531250
30.593750
34.000000
36.718750
40.125000
42.843750
46.234375
48.968750
52.359375
55.078125
59.156250
62.562500
65.281250
64.437500
65.953125
65.953125
66.703125
66.703125
68.218750
68.2187507
i have taken tr 1-2 shift to 20% because i was blowing the tires away even at the track, it shifted very hard.tr 2-3 and 3-4 are set to 0.'snot to sure what i'm missing could anyone help me out? here is a log with 2.9 this is kicking down from 2 to 1. ok sorry maybe someone can tell me how to put the attachment on here.LOL sorry for the trouble..:bash:

[oztracktuning]

Joecar
I just changed all my shoft pressures in power mode to be the same as yours and it feels good. The car seems to be accelerating quicker at part throttle than before.

I have a stock 4L60e with a Yank SS3600 and im using Transmax z - also it has a big B&M Cooler in front of the radiator.

My shift times are set at

1-2

0.300000
0.300000
0.300000
0.300000
0.300000
0.300000
0.300000
0.300000
0.268750
0.250000
0.237500
0.237500
0.237500
0.237500
0.237500
0.237500
0.237500

2-3
0.300000
0.300000
0.300000
0.300000
0.300000
0.300000
0.300000
0.293750
0.268750
0.237500
0.200000
0.187500
0.175000
0.175000
0.175000
0.175000
0.175000

In normal mode i have less pressure.
eg
In PSI not % it is
0
0
0
0
3
7
10
12
13
15
18
20
24
27
30
34
37
41
45
50
59
65
74
80
85
90
90
90
90
90
90
90
90



1-2
0.331250
0.331250
0.331250
0.331250
0.331250
0.331250
0.331250
0.300000
0.268750
0.250000
0.237500
0.237500
0.237500
0.237500
0.237500
0.237500
0.237500

2-3
0.350000
0.350000
0.350000
0.350000
0.350000
0.343750
0.318750
0.293750
0.268750
0.237500
0.200000
0.187500
0.175000
0.175000
0.175000
0.175000
0.175000

[oztracktuning]

I wanted to know if people thought the numbers above are OK for the gearbox. I put the normal mode back to stock GTS normal pressure and it seemed quite slippery and lazy on the changes.

Its a matter of doing whats best for the box.

[ytry]

Ok kewl how can i change it to psi? I would rather have it that way I think. Again thanks for this post I think it has made a huge impact.

Ok I have mine at psi already sorry,, the torque management is % and I added 20 % to my 1st to 2nd shift and it helped, I didn't want to have to much pressure and then take the TM to 20% and maybe cause dammage..

[joecar]

...
i have taken tr 1-2 shift to 20% because i was blowing the tires away even at the track, it shifted very hard.tr 2-3 and 3-4 are set to 0.'snot to sure what i'm missing could anyone help me out? here is a log with 2.9 this is kicking down from 2 to 1. ok sorry maybe someone can tell me how to put the attachment on here.LOL sorry for the trouble..:bash: Hey mate, no trouble at all, no worries. :cheers:

When the scan tool is displaying the log chart, do PrintScreen on your keyboard,
and then use something like IrfanView (freeware www.irfanview.com (http://www.irfanview.com)) to paste and crop the image into a .png file,
then goto http://imageshack.us and upload your image file (if you register (free) you can manage your uploaded images);
copy the "direct" link, reply to this thread, press the yellow/grey "mountain" picture button and paste in the link and save the reply.

It could be that after you add TR the engine now gets loaded from the tires not spinning as much;
you may need to add more fuel in PE or add a little more TR, or we'll just look at the log chart first.

[joecar]

I wanted to know if people thought the numbers above are OK for the gearbox. I put the normal mode back to stock GTS normal pressure and it seemed quite slippery and lazy on the changes.

Its a matter of doing whats best for the box. Those numbers look good, but I can tell better if there's a picture, try the imageshack thingy I posted above (1 pic == 1000 words) :D

Even in Normal mode (you have a Normal/Performance switch on your console, right...?) you want more shift pressure and less shift time than factory stock; the stock feel isn't impressive at all, not worthy of a muscle car; and any noticeable slip will definitely kill the trans. over a period of time (creates heat and clutch/band material particles and wastes energy).

Higher shift pressure and lower shift times reduce the time that ramp up/down slip occurs (the apply component is ramping up while the releasing component is ramping down).

Rules of thumb:
Too little or too much is bad.
If the shift is slow/sloppy/indefinite, then that's bad (wears clutches/band, burns ATF which fries seals).
If the shift is harsh/jerking/violent, then that's bad (breaks hard components).
If the shift is firm/quick/positive then that's good.
Log whenever you can (BB) so you can monitor the trans (that was a good catch on the Nm being low).

:cheers:

[joecar]

...the torque management is % and I added 20 % to my 1st to 2nd shift and it helped, I didn't want to have to much pressure and then take the TM to 20% and maybe cause dammage..
Post some pictures of your trans. tables from the tune tool (using the imageshack thing) if you can.

[joecar]

Ok, so I forgot you can attach files to posts now..
Anyway here is the magic document with most of the info from this thread.

Ill add in Joecar's shift pressure pics and update the doco in the next few days. In the meantime, go and break traction with this doc. Ringram, thanks for updating the PDF, appreciate the effort, good work, mate. :cheers:

[ytry]

i am trying this to see if it works, it's a pic of the KR i had..:D

[oztracktuning]

Joecar
My car is changing gears nicely now - but the 2-3 change at lower 1/3 Nm values is a bit clunky - what can i do about it? My LSD/diff is a bit worn i think as well so it might be a factor.

At high % its fine. But low down it is a little bit bangy rather than positive and quick like the 1-2 change.

I have no torque management set at all and remember i have a SS3600 converter

[joecar]

i am trying this to see if it works, it's a pic of the KR i had..:DIt seems the KR happens when the RPM drops after an upshift, and commanded AFR is 12.26; TR reduces spark timing momentarily on each upshift, so you may either want to add some back in, or see if the actual (wideband) AFR matches the commanded AFR, or play with the burst knock settings, or try higher octane fuel;

What is happening is that the engine becomes loaded when it begins to pull in the new gear so it knocks;

can you hear it knocking...?

Your MAP is below 90 kPa at WOT, you must be at altitude (5000ft), right...?

Your HO2S voltages at WOT seem to be at 825-850mV (as best as I can tell) which is too lean;
opinion is that the HO2S voltages at WOT should be something like 930mV;
but the exact way to tell the actual AFR is by running a wideband O2S.

[joecar]

Joecar
My car is changing gears nicely now - but the 2-3 change at lower 1/3 Nm values is a bit clunky - what can i do about it? My LSD/diff is a bit worn i think as well so it might be a factor.

At high % its fine. But low down it is a little bit bangy rather than positive and quick like the 1-2 change.

I have no torque management set at all and remember i have a SS3600 converterFlyer,
You mean at low throttle below 20 km/h in traffic, it clunks when going 1-2...?
I have tried decreasing the pressure and increasing the shifttime at the lowest 2 torque settings, but it didn't help;

I don't know that anything can be done.

At low speed/throttle the sprag is overruning, and when 1-2 occurs it grabs and the diff lets you hear the back-lash in the ring/pinion as a mild 'clunk'; happened since new, friends would say "I thought you bought a new car..."

[oztracktuning]

My car is good in 1-2 to change - its the 2-3 change.

[joecar]

My car is good in 1-2 to change - its the 2-3 change. Oops, I misread 1-2 instead of 2-3...

It's still the forward sprag suddenly holding after freewheeling in 1st or 2nd;
the ring/pinion was coasting and now is suddenly driven (backlash is suddenly taken up);

if that's not describing what you see/hear, maybe 2-3 shift pressure is high and/or shift time is too quick for the lowest torque cell; have you tried adjusting these (only for the lowest torque cell)...?

[oztracktuning]

Its at about 8% throttle at 2000rpm change 2 to 3rd at 74ftlb (100Nm)
which in my car has 86Kpa which is 13%. and shift time is set to 0.300
with 3.73s it only at about 23mph.

This is just one example of when it does it. It does it at higher revs as well.

[Jphdg]

Its at about 8% throttle at 2000rpm change 2 to 3rd at 74ftlb (100Nm)
which in my car has 86Kpa which is 13%. and shift time is set to 0.300
with 3.73s it only at about 23mph.

This is just one example of when it does it. It does it at higher revs as well.


Hey this is exactly the same problem with me too. I am curious to hear a follow up on this one.

Mine is doing this fairly much exact same conditions as you Flyer. Its really annoying and feels bad IMO. Makes me cringe when it goes 'cuchunk'! and every other shift except 2-3 are positive and perfect no matter what the TPS% or torque is. I tried a few things but it still does not feel quite right however it is better. My box is built as well and running a 3500 stallie.

If its 'really' light throttle it is fine and drops a 2-3 shift firm or if it is 2400rpm or cops a boot it is beaut all the way through. Tried playing with the cells which indicate between 70-100nm by increasing the shift time a little.

Should I try increasing the shift times in the lower torque value cells some more and try it out? Have not got a log at the moment with me to post :(

interesting. :Eyecrazy:

[joecar]

I get a clunk going 2-3 at almost no throttle, around 20-25 mph, almost idle revs;
I have never yet been able to eliminate it, it's very annoying. :bash::nixweiss:

I'm curious to know how many people are seeing this.

[mtnman]

Is there any way to adjust shift firmness during AutoVE tuning? My shifts are freakishly hard and jerky.

[joecar]

Is there any way to adjust shift firmness during AutoVE tuning? My shifts are freakishly hard and jerky. Make sure that P0101, P0102, P0103 are disabled in these tables:

E0101, E0102, E0103, E0104

edit: and check for any instances of P0101, P0102, P0103 in any Exxxx tables.

(they don't appear in all these tables)

[Blacky]

Let's play with the numbers...

416 * 1.356 = 564
416 / 1.356 = 307

Hmmm... it would appear that EFILive is dividing instead of multiplying to get the torque numbers.

Also "broken" is GM.TFMPRS (psi is ok, but kPa is wrong).
Both will be fixed in the next release.

Paul

[joecar]

Also "broken" is GM.TFMPRS (psi is ok, but kPa is wrong).
Both will be fixed in the next release.

PaulPaul, thanks mate, excellent customer service. :cheers:

[joecar]

Joecar
My car is changing gears nicely now - but the 2-3 change at lower 1/3 Nm values is a bit clunky - what can i do about it? My LSD/diff is a bit worn i think as well so it might be a factor.

At high % its fine. But low down it is a little bit bangy rather than positive and quick like the 1-2 change.

I have no torque management set at all and remember i have a SS3600 converterI experimented a little, and I found that I can eliminate the clunk most of the time if I revert back to stock the lower portion (TPS < 25%) of the PT 2-3 upshift table D0902 and the PT 3-2 downshift table D0907. It still happens, but less frequently and less pronounced when it does.

I spend about 30 minutes/day in 0-25MPH stop/go conditions (freeway traffic jam) so I get good opportunities to test this out.

So I don't know if your tables are modified, if they are you may want to try this.

[ScarabEpic22]

Well, thanks for the help you guys provided me without even knowing it. My 02 TrailBlazer with Transgo HD-2 shift searches for gears on the hwy and above about 45mph, but after reading this thread I have some ideas that I am going to try tomorrow and see what happens!!

[joecar]

Well, thanks for the help you guys provided me without even knowing it. My 02 TrailBlazer with Transgo HD-2 shift searches for gears on the hwy and above about 45mph, but after reading this thread I have some ideas that I am going to try tomorrow and see what happens!!
Let us know how it goes/went... :cheers:

[The Alchemist]

Hi there guys.
Did my first trans tune on a VYII Holden R8. Interesting experience with very good results!
The trans had the usual clunky down shift and slow sloppy upshift under hard acceleration. It also had that annoying TTC lockup in 4th gear that won't unlock when you hit a decent hill unless you really stab the throttle or pass 50% TPS or more. This means you are always reaching for the manual change to 3rd or suffer in silence and slooooowwww down:)
What amazed me was how different the car was to drive once we "got it right" !
The Upshifts were snappy yet not jerky giving a performance feel, the downshifts on light throttle were almost imperseivable, the TTC was hardly noticible on lockup.
And best of all, the moment you hit a hill and needed a bit more grunt the TTC unlocked at about 40% tps (standard about 52%) and away you went. The customer was very impressed :) and so was I.
Thanks for all the good info and tuning tips on this thread !

Mike

[Superado]

And best of all, the moment you hit a hill and needed a bit more grunt the TTC unlocked at about 40% tps (standard about 52%) and away you went.

what exactly had an impact on this?
thanks!

[BowlingSS]

This is a old thread.....:cucumber::cucumber:

[The Alchemist]

what exactly had an impact on this?
thanks!

TCC unlock in 4th gear vs TPS...can't remember the "B" series number.
Works a treat.
Mike

[GAMEOVER]

This is a old thread.....:cucumber::cucumber:

I found what i was looking for in this thread...took a while though:shock:

[mvnvltn]

I found what i was looking for in this thread...took a while though:shock:

Me too. :fluffy:

[The New Pro]

wooooooooooow thanks mate

[Redline Motorsports]

Holy Crap! This thread is still alive!

Still think a formal tutorial would be nice!

[joecar]

lol, Howard, I can work on something new, I now have something that can write pdf files.

[Meister]

I am with Howard, bring this thread back!

[Redline Motorsports]

Look who woke up!

[Meister]

Look who woke up!

Hahaha.....very funny :hihi:

[BowlingSS]

I would love to see a 2011 Camaro Trans tune write up.

Bill

[GAMEOVER]

I'd like to see a Silverado/GMC Truck 6L80E/6L90E 6 speed Trans Tune write up...:D

[joecar]

I don't have any 6L80/90 to experiment with or otherwise destroy...

These work different than the 4L60E/4L80E in that the components are sequenced electronically rather than hydraulically, and the trans calibration contains timing relationships which are critical.

Some people have figured out how to tune these.

[RonC]

I would love to see a 2011 Camaro Trans tune write up.

Bill

Anyone here that would be willing and able to write-up the basics of the do's and don't's of how to tune the 6 speed auto T43?

Ron

[TurboCamaro]

Hi All
I have been searching for the trans tune pdf and am only able find this one by ringram in April of 06. Is this the most recent?


Ok, so I forgot you can attach files to posts now..
Anyway here is the magic document with most of the info from this thread.

Ill add in Joecar's shift pressure pics and update the doco in the next few days. In the meantime, go and break traction with this doc.

The link in the Thread: Collecting links to scattered tutorial material... doesn't seem to function.

Thanks

[Taz]

Try the link below ...

http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?2990-Collecting-links-to-tutorial-material-scattered-in-other-sections...&p=131266&viewfull=1#post131266


Regards,
Taz

[TurboCamaro]

Hi Taz
Thanks. The post you reference is how I landed in this thread. In the thread you are referencing post 3 has a link to a trans PDF and there are links to it in this thread. Only enquiring to see if there is an update since the one attached in 2006.

Thanks
Great work all!

[johnmaster]

Hello again, been 6 mos since I plugged my scanner into the truck, getting back into it to figure out if I can get this trans to shift more crisp. At least I can learn on this one and if I blow it up its no big deal...99 silverado 2wd 4l60 with a skillion miles on it, turboed now and wondering how much I can pour to this poor thing before the trans gives up. Took a drive and logged before making the pressure and shift time changes mentioned in this thread, part throttle shifts are much more crisp now. Bad news is my 1-2 shift takes about 1.3 seconds measured from peak to valley of my rpm curve WOT. 90 psi pres control solenoid pressure while it is shifting which I believe is maxxed. shift times are at .25 seconds on the tune and tm is zeroed.

How do I tell it's slipping and can't be tuned into shape? Should I try it with 0 in the appropriate cells for d1108 and see if it helps any? I get the feeling I am going to be shopping for a real solution...

Thank you to all who have contributed so far!

[BowlingSS]

I don't have any 6L80/90 to experiment with or otherwise destroy...

These work different than the 4L60E/4L80E in that the components are sequenced electronically rather than hydraulically, and the trans calibration contains timing relationships which are critical.

Some people have figured out how to tune these.

Wished someone would do a 6L80 tuning tutorial.

Bill

[restless@westnet.com.au]

that would be nice

[APS Luis]

Wished someone would do a 6L80 tuning tutorial.

Bill

The issue with T43 is that every one of them behaves differently!
I could do a tutorial of what i have found so far ,but it would really be useless IMHO. You flash your first T43 and drive the car and you'd think "oh wow, that's great" . Put the same numbers in the next car and it behaves totally differently.

6L80E & T43 is a tuner's nightmare :crash:

[EagleMark]

Back from the past... Found this thread accidentally in search... how come it never made a sticky or link or? Lots of good ideas!

[joecar]

Back from the past... Found this thread accidentally in search... how come it never made a sticky or link or? Lots of good ideas!Ok, stickied.

[tdmkr496]

Wow I just finished reading the whole thread, lots of great information!

[wells]

Wow.... This was a ton of info to take in at one time. excellent info. I only piddle with EFI live on a very few customers of mine, but I have put a good bit of time into my personal truck. 09 Sierra LY2. I have adjusted TM and shift times awhile back and about two months ago installed 1-2 vette servo and 3-4 supper hold servo. Even with the TM adjustments the shift felt great. Not violent, but firm. I now have changed gear from 3.55 to 4.10 ( all this to compensate 35" tires ). Now the 1-2 shift is brutal!!!! I have returned TM back to oe settings, and it helped, but still to harsh. Any suggestions on next plan of attack? Main purpose of servos where to no smoke slush box 4l65E with the tires and now I'm afraid its going to grenade.

Anything above 18% TPS will "slam" on 1-2. Thank you in advance for any advise.

Wells

[joecar]

Set 1-2 shift pressure table back to stock, add more 1-2 torque reduction.

[joecar]

Make sure that P0101, P0102, P0103 are disabled in these tables:

E0101, E0102, E0103, E0104

edit: and check for any instances of P0101, P0102, P0103 in any Exxxx tables.

(they don't appear in all these tables)Updated ^

Later years have table E1006.

[joecar]

Also, see this: When-throttle-kickdown-is-not-set-at-100 (https://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?7388-When-throttle-kickdown-is-not-set-at-100)



Graph show what happens when the Throttle Kickdown tables are not set at flat 100%...

( 4-3 Kickdown curve has been axis-swapped to match axes of 3-4 PT Upshift and 4-3 PT Downshift curves )

Above red line = upshift into 4th
Below green line = downshift into 3rd
To right of blue line = throttle kickdown into 3rd

The blue region shows a conflict (PT upshift table wants 4th, throttle kickdown table wants 3rd).

PCM may or may not follow the kickdown table... it won't shift when you think it should, and vice-versa.

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/4841/43kickdownty3.png

[joecar]

Also take note of this:


PT shift table relationships:

basic relationships:
1->2 curve should be above 2->1 curve;
2->3 curve should be above 3->2 curve;
3->4 curve should be above 4->3 curve;

additional relationships:
3->2 curve should be above 1->2 curve;
4->3 curve should be above 2->3 curve;

this can be summarized as: the curves cannot cross anywhere;

if they cross anywhere, then you will not be able to predict what gear the PCM selects when the operating point hits the cross.

Same concept goes for the WOT MPH parameters.

[creekrat]

Joecar,

For the shift pressures is it safe to just copy the pressures from the performance side of D701, 702 and 703 to the normal side?

[joecar]

You can go a little higher...

I do this: make a straight line from (0, 0) to (399 ftlb, 96 psi)... do this on all 3 PT upshift pressure tables;

then set all 3 PT upshift time tables to 0.25 s;

then go for a drive, adjust shift feel by adding or removing TR from the shift torque reduction tables;

I also add 1 extra pint of ATF above the hot full mark (if you do this, check dipstick to make sure ATF is not frothing)... if you're drag racing this will help to keep filter submerged.

[zomeizter]

If decreasing TR does nothing to the up shifts, do I need to increase pressure?

[joecar]

If decreasing TR does nothing to the up shifts, do I need to increase pressure?How does it shift (soft, medium, firm, hard)...?

Can you post your tune file...?

[zomeizter]

Shifts are soft, like the stock configuration, seems like the tune does exactly nothing when I flash. BTW, I used V7.5 when I flashed and I proceeded to adjust base pressure to a 10% increase, shift times set to 0.2500, and torque management reduced by 50% and later 70%. Every single time I tweaked the parameters and reflashed it seemed as if nothing changed. Maybe I need to tune with V8 instead of V7.5? I left my other laptop at work with all my tune files and can't post it at the moment, will do so as soon as I pick it up.

[zomeizter]

The Guinea pig is a 2005 Chevy Suburban, 5.3L 4L60E 4WD, completely stock...for now :D

[joecar]

V7 or V8 should not make any difference in editing.

There are other considerations:
to get a firm 1->2 shift you need the Corvette 2nd servo or the Sonnax 2nd Super Hold servo, and the wider 2nd band;
you have to make sure the 3-4 clutch is not slipping;
you have to make sure line pressure is good (the pressure regulator has not worn its bore);
do you have a stall converter...?
what state is the trans fluid (color/smell/level)...?

Do you do a cal-only flash or a full flash...?
Did it flash successfully...?
After flashing, if you read back the tune from the PCM, does it compare to what you flashed in...?

[zomeizter]

Excuse my lag, left the country briefly...
Tranny is full stock but maintained well, fluid is great, cherry red and smells like ATF, half a pint over filled. Cal-only flash was performed, cluster information center reads successful flash, have not verified by extracting afterward, will do very soon and report result. I was under the impression I could firm up the up shifts with Cal adjustment only but I guess I'm mistaken, if so I reckon I shall abandon further tweaking of this vehicle until hard parts go in the slush box...good day.

[joecar]

If tweaking the tables doesn't increase firmness, then you have to find out why.

If removing Torque Reduction does not increase shift feel, then try increasing Shift Pressure tables a further 25%.

Post your tune file, if you can, let's take a closer look.

[zomeizter]

will do, work intensity is finally decreasing, standby ma man...

[joecar]

No worries, take your time.

[zomeizter]

I'm back, work has given me a break for once...where were we? Oh yes, so I will post the tune file as soon as I figure out how, and, I have a question: You mention hard parts in the tranny for shift firmness, do you recommend the corvette servo installation in the slush box? I've been researching this and there's a whole lot of happy gearheads out there with the results of this "mod", I'm very interested.

[zomeizter]

Test 1...

[joecar]

The Corvette servo (or one with larger surface area, for example from Sonnax) is a must, there's no doubt about this (and it's an easy install).

[1FastBrick]

Test 1...

Is this on an Auto cal unit??? Shows its locked

[joecar]

+1 it's locked/private...

tunetool says this when I try to open it:



[Window Title]
Error

[Content]
EFILive cannot load the file: C:\Users\joecar\Downloads\05burbanStockCal_01_0000 .ctz

This file is flagged as private. The contents cannot be viewed using the EFILive V7 software, please use the EFILive V8 software instead.

[OK]

[zomeizter]

Umm, how do I unlock it for your viewing pleasure? I'm using a V2 BTW...

[Lawn Choppers]

Just found this awesome post, as Joecar knows after my tune which involved setting shift points due to the 4:11 gears and mid mount torque arm. Spun out of the hole, hit second put car sideways mostly thru the gear hit third and bounced rev limiter telling me third didn't hold up lol I can drive it easy in third so in a month or so out comes trans time for rebuild and use a lot of this info !

[joecar]

During the rebuild there are various Sonnax upgrade parts that help to hold 3rd and 4th gears in high torque applications...

on ls1tech.com there are a few 4L60E build threads where they explain the Sonnax upgrade parts.

[Chuck CoW]

The Corvette servo (or one with larger surface area, for example from Sonnax) is a must, there's no doubt about this (and it's an easy install).

Hey Joe. The Corvette Servo is an EASY install. The SONNAX super servo is NOT simple. If not installed correctly, you will not have 4th.... or 4th will slip tearing up the

trans. The clearance for the sonnax (combo of 2nd and 4th) 4th servo is .075 - .125 outside of that window it will either drag and burn the band or there will be no 4th.

We use a fixture we made and a dial indicator 90 deg to the cover and a "rocker lever" to apply the band from the cover manually for measuring.

Additionally, we always buy the sonnax extra long apply pin and grind it to fit. (takes many small grinding adjustments to get it right)

Go ahead.... Ask me how I know all this..... :( :Eyecrazy:

Chuck CoW

[joecar]

Hey Chuck,

Thanks for the info on the Sonnax super servo and band pin.

The fixture for measuring sounds like a good idea to make the job easier.

[96silveradoz71]

Not sure if this is right place to ask but did 0411 swap in my 96 it doesnt want to shift to 2nd in my driveway if i power brake in garage it shift at pretty high rpm. Looked at the upshift rpm parameters and they are all set at either 5000 or 4500 rpm the tune was a van tune i pulled off of here somewhere. Wondering if anyone knows what these values should be for the stock van tune for a decent starting point

[joecar]

Not sure if this is right place to ask but did 0411 swap in my 96 it doesnt want to shift to 2nd in my driveway if i power brake in garage it shift at pretty high rpm. Looked at the upshift rpm parameters and they are all set at either 5000 or 4500 rpm the tune was a van tune i pulled off of here somewhere. Wondering if anyone knows what these values should be for the stock van tune for a decent starting point
Post your tune file, there might be other reasons for not shifting to 2nd.

[TLKSCHP]

Maybe I missed it but If VE tables being off can drop line pressure what about when you spray a dual nozzle methanol set up which changes VE? Does this require doing something different? I'm back to fighting a WOT 2-3 shift issue. Bounces the limiter around 8 times then shifts firm. Also could be trans going again.

[joecar]

Measure line pressure at the tap on the side of the case, see what it does during the shift.

Also log GM.TFMPRS, GM.GEAR and the other pids (VSS, RPM, ETC or ETCTP, MAP, MAF, ECT, TFT, TCCMODE) and post here.

[TLKSCHP]

Measure line pressure at the tap on the side of the case, see what it does during the shift.

Also log GM.TFMPRS, GM.GEAR and the other pids (VSS, RPM, ETC or ETCTP, MAP, MAF, ECT, TFT, TCCMODE) and post here.

Had to get new laptop, lost all my files and some reason couldn't get efi live to work but all good now I think.
Just need to locate a pressure gauge.
If i had to guess its not commanding the shift all the time. went to the track and 1 pass shifted okay 10.89 @ 128 but 2nd pass wouldn't shift into 3rd and pulled 2nd all the way to redline 100 mph at the 1000ft and just bounced rev limiter. I lift and put in D and it shifts.

[joecar]

...
If i had to guess its not commanding the shift all the time. went to the track and 1 pass shifted okay 10.89 @ 128 but 2nd pass wouldn't shift into 3rd and pulled 2nd all the way to redline 100 mph at the 1000ft and just bounced rev limiter. I lift and put in D and it shifts.
Post your tune file and some logs showing this.

[TLKSCHP]

Well I planned on having a log to post today but i guess i still haven't figured out my software issue. Thought i got all the scanner 7.5 lined out and ready but all the pids, charts and themes are gone again. If i flash with V8 my dash wont work but is fine with 7.5 I noticed . starting to think i need to do a complete reflash i if can get this software working

[joecar]

No worries, take your time.

Use V7.5 to flash and log for this (for now).