Removing injection events - compensation?

[AdamRRT]

When you guys remove the pre and/or post injection event, are you compensating by increasing duration on the main pulse?

Bear with me. I just got my EFILive 2 days ago and haven't flashed my ecm (or ECU, PCM, whatever we want to call it) yet because I'm wanting to fully understand my plan of attack on the tuning. I'm used to gasoline vehicle tuning with HPTuners, so I have some good base knowledge, but as yet it's my first run with EFILive and with a diesel. Thanks for the help.

[06redram]

Yes you need to make differrents up the post

[06redram]

It's a nice writeup by dog house the post is EFILive for Dummies I hope that help. Welcome to the Efi live

[AdamRRT]

Thanks a ton. I've read that. Now I really need to figure out more of the diesel- and Cummins-specific issues. Like I said I get most of the basics of how to tune but it is on gasoline vehicles. I've been doing some of the basics of tuning LS1 cars for a few years while my tuner buddy works the complex magic, but on the diesels I am less sure. I'd love to see some how-to's, such as modifying the injection events (like how to turn off each, and how to modify the main to compensate - for those who don't get it at all - I don't think that's me but we'll see haha), and maybe eventually I'd love to see us come up with kind of table showing how much fuel and timing various tuners give at various levels, to give newer members a guide but still leaving them to learn how to tune.

[GMPX]

Adam, actually some of the tutorials that were done for the Duramax a number of years ago are also applicable for the Cummins in concept. Maybe also trying searching the internet for Duramax Tuning tips.

[AdamRRT]

Excellent. Thanks for all the help, guys. I feel welcome already!

[FUBAR]

Turning an injection event off just requires zeroing out all the quantity tables. Turning off post is no big deal. You can tune to make up the difference, but not needed. Pilot is a whole different ball game. Turn it off, start your truck and your in for a terrible surprise. Then you need to compensate with timing big time. I've gotten my truck to run on a single injection event only, as well as two other trucks. But the two other trucks white smoke on cold startup for 3-5 seconds in cold temps and we've tried getting rid of it the way we did initially with no luck. Mine doesn't do it. We're still working on it.

Anyways, where I'm at now, is widening out the main (single) went in lieu of dropping pilot and post off, to create a bigger power event. Making it worth it another words. Hope this is a bit insightful,

-Andrew

[dansdieselp]

Here I don't see much advantage in shutting off pilot completely. I have it zeroed out above 2,800 and 100mm3 dice that is where your full throttle power is going to be. This way you still have the nice clean smooth running down low and have a single event up top. Now post I've turned off to increase mpg. In sled pulling or racing I'll work with post down low to help build heat into the turbo to help it spool. Then pre and post shut off when I give it full throttle.

[2007 5.9]

^^^^^^^^^^

This is exactly how I'm set up...except I'm running no pilot above 2600 and 110mm3...but same concept.
A well placed pilot event can/will help spool largish chargers better than a single event will.


~Les

[olboyowl]

i also have my post completely turned off, but i have pilot killed after 2600 rpms. no issues here.

[AdamRRT]

Excellent info guys. I'm sure it has a great clanging idle when using no pilot, right?
So it looks like I should just use pilot on idle and up through my daily driving powerband. Can I reduce it some to increase mpg?
And I assume you guys phase out the pilot rather than suddenly drop it off?
If so, what rpm range are you using to phase it out? 400? 500?

When you are without pilot, you're just leaving the duration and timing of the pilot & main where they would be as if they had a post event?

On the trucks that are smoking with no pilot, why not just let them keep the pilot event at idle?

Thanks again fellas. I really appreciate the help. Like I said I grasp timing, duration, pressure. Just where to put them on an oil burner Is still a work in progress for me.

[FUBAR]

Leaving pilot off actually makes the truck start easier. But it's more so for the principle of it, the challenge. I know there are nay sayers, but I just want to see if I can make my theory work in my head.

Also, if we were to switch to a cam where the lobes aren't ground to overlap the exhaust valve when the intake starts to open to leak exhaust gas back into cylinder like Cummins did to pull off the in-cylinder egr, would we need to do anything to post?

[icem237]

Hopefully next week Ill have the 2nd gen cam in. So no more EGR! :rockon:

[AdamRRT]

Hopefully next week Ill have the 2nd gen cam in. So no more EGR! :rockon:Nice! Update us, of course! I'll actually be in your town the first weekend of Nov.

Still wanting to know if anybody can help with these questions:
Are you guys phasing out the pilot rather than suddenly dropping it off?
If so, across how many rpm are you phasing it out? 400? 500?

When you are without post, you're just leaving the duration and timing of the pilot & main where they would be as if they had a post event?

[FUBAR]

I'll let one of the other guys chime in if they wish about phasing it out. Running without pilot, either all the time or just at top end, I can run more timing and fuel for the lack of pilot (more room to work with essentially.)

[AdamRRT]

Makes perfect sense to me, FUBAR. I was thinking the same thing. More duration and timing to work with to get it just right. Are you seeing any advantage to a single inj event during daily driving? Or just at WOT at upper RPMs?

[olboyowl]

i phased it out between 2200-2400rpm (smoothed it out) so its turned off completely by 2600rpm. i think alls u have to zero is the quanity, but i did timing also from 2600rpm and up. hope this helps

[FUBAR]

Daily driving you have the sound novelty factor and your injectors aren't firing as much which prolongs the life of them. Mileage wise, I drove 200 miles in mountainous terrain on the interstate traveling 80mph the whole way, 3 stops, and I end up hand calculating 19.75 mpg. My Mega weighs 7,600 lbs with me in it, auto, 3.73 gears, intake, exhaust. That was 2.5 mpg better than any tune I could get with pilot on.

[06redram]

Fubar can send a screen shot on how you set that pilot up to make it street-able. Our IM me

[FUBAR]

Advance timing, and look at crank timing. The rest is up to the eye of the beholder becuase it's wide open depending on one's theory.

[06redram]

Thanks, I will look at it with third eye approach

[AdamRRT]

Thanks for the members who have emailed and called me for the help. Great crew!

[2006Cummins]

Are there any disadvantages of removing the pre and/or post events?

[olboyowl]

i made some changes to my file yesterday taking out pilot injection (thanks fubar). i killed all the injection quantity, injection timing, ECT, pilot pulse, ...basically everything with a table (none of the line graphs) that had to do with pilot got 0'd. some things i notice.

1. did start easier
2. did run quiter
3. seemed to me that rolling into the throttle after tq converter locks up, it has less smoke
4. no white smoke on start up. didn't have any with pilot on before, but with it off, there was still none

a few questions/concerns i had

1. is it supposed to rattle like a 12v at idle? sounded good as shit, but just didn't know if it was supposed to sound like that
2. at start up, there was a noise i never heard before. maybe me not used to no pilot and it starting better?
3. had more of a haze from take off to around 1600-1700rpms, then cleared up. not sure if i should pull fuel or add timing but i'm sure i could get it worked out.

other then that, didn't get much time to mess with it. couldn't do a fuel economy comparison. wasn't sure about the 3 questions above, so loaded my old file back in. like to hear what others think about this. gonna leave it on till i get more info.

[FUBAR]

1. Yes (there's no pre-explosion to warm up for the big explosion)
2. Don't worry. That's music to a diesel motorhead's ears. Goes with above statement.
3. Just play with it. You sound like you got a level head on you.
4. There was no four. Oh well, congrats on making it work! Now just have fun tuning with it to get a more powerful injection event.

[olboyowl]

ok, thanks for your help yesterday. will work with timing tomorrow to clear up the smoke from take off. hope you got your problem takin care of. take it easy man

[FUBAR]

Yea, sucking the intake up into the turbo ain't good, but the Cummins took it with stride.

[2007 5.9]

Intake into turbo??

What???
~Les

[FUBAR]

Lol, I think everything's alright. I run a 2nd gen exhaust manifold and wanted to use my intake. It just stopped the turbo dead in it's tracks. It's a thin silicone wall air duct with plastic spline to prevent collapsing. Well it did prevent it for 4 months. Gale Banks runs it on his type-r race truck where I got it from. Anyways, a 1" piece of plastic spline made it in the turbo and who knows where else. Bout the size of an ink cartridge in an ink pen 1" long. If it did make it to the engine, hopefully it just melted. Got aluminum pipe and heavy duty silicone hose coming today to fix it.

-Andrew

[AdamRRT]

I've seen that explanation before. LOL!

[2007 5.9]

Tried Andrew's tune on my truck....needs some adjustment for my setup. Did start easier, run quieter, but much dirtier than my DD tune. I told andrew that I will be working on it during the week and see what I can come up with.

I think we can work it out...just needs time.

~Les

[AdamRRT]

Yup I'm in the same boat, due to my larger sticks. I'm gonna clean up the DD portion this weekend. I normally hit about 50psi on a Smarty/BDTD CL tune, but on this one I'm at 38-39psi. BUT that said, I don't feel a LOT weaker. Most likely due to being in a happier place in the compressor map. I'm gonna enrich the heavy TPS portions to see if I build more boost to about 45psi.

[olboyowl]

loaded the no pilot tune back into the truck. gonna work on it more tomorrow. i added a little timing between 800-1400 to try and clean up some of the haze. will get some info up tomorrow night.

[cumminsDK]

Leaving pilot off actually makes the truck start easier. But it's more so for the principle of it, the challenge. I know there are nay sayers, but I just want to see if I can make my theory work in my head.

Also, if we were to switch to a cam where the lobes aren't ground to overlap the exhaust valve when the intake starts to open to leak exhaust gas back into cylinder like Cummins did to pull off the in-cylinder egr, would we need to do anything to post?

I think you will find "valve overlap" in any cummins b series built since at least 1989. Also duramaxes, and John Deere engines dating back to the 404 in the '60s. Its not for in cylinder EGR

[2007 5.9]

I think you will find "valve overlap" in any cummins b series built since at least 1989. Also duramaxes, and John Deere engines dating back to the 404 in the '60s. Its not for in cylinder EGR

True to a point...CR engines has THE MOST valve overlap of any Cummins B-series engine, for the simple in-cylinder EGR effect they needed to not have to go to the external EGR you have seen in the ISX, ISL, QSX etc... and the B-series 6.7.

When i swapped my cam, I noticed cleaner oil and cooler oil temps....

~Les

[cumminsDK]

True to a point...CR engines has THE MOST valve overlap of any Cummins B-series engine, for the simple in-cylinder EGR effect they needed to not have to go to the external EGR you have seen in the ISX, ISL, QSX etc... and the B-series 6.7.

When i swapped my cam, I noticed cleaner oil and cooler oil temps....

~Les
i have been researching this and haven't been able to locate any info to confirm, and for that matter anything describing the amount of overlap on any cam....not to say you are wrong, just that valve overlap has always been there to some degree without being for the purpose of EGR. i would be interested to have a read on something giving info on the amount of extra overlap on the CR's for the purpose of in cylinder EGR. this would make sense as cummins has always found simple ways to meet emmissions requirements ahead of time without a lot of extra parts or systems.

[AdamRRT]

I still can't fathom overlap on a boosted engine helping to burn EGR gases. If the exhaust valve is open at the same time the intake valve is, you'll have the boost blowing it straight through. Now opening the exhaust valve only then the int valve, may do it. But overlap is normal for making power cause it allows the exhaust pulse to pull the intake charge in at higher rpm (NA engines), and greater cylinder filling velocity due to that flow through (boosted or non).

[DoghouseDiesel]

You're thinking overlap in the wrong way.

What it does is CLOSE the exhaust valve early trapping the exhaust gas and bringing it into the next intake stroke.

And yes it is there.....3rd Gen OEM cams SUCK!

Here are the cam profiles from the various generations. Specifically, look at the lob seperation angle (LSA).

The 24v VP44 trucks had a much better cam than the CR trucks do.

12V Stock:
INT: 159° @.050”.235” Lift
EX: 204° @.050” .263” Lift
102* LSA

24V Stock:
INT: 159°@.050” .235” Lift
EX: 206° @.050” .297” Lift
107.5* LSA

24V 3rd gen:
INT: 163° @.050” .237” Lift
EX: 191° @.050” .299” Lift
98.5* LSA

[FUBAR]

Thanks for the hard numbers Rich. But either way, like you said it, stock 3rd gen cams suck.

[cumminsDK]

You're thinking overlap in the wrong way.

What it does is CLOSE the exhaust valve early trapping the exhaust gas and bringing it into the next intake stroke.

And yes it is there.....3rd Gen OEM cams SUCK!

Here are the cam profiles from the various generations. Specifically, look at the lob seperation angle (LSA).

The 24v VP44 trucks had a much better cam than the CR trucks do.

12V Stock:
INT: 159° @.050”.235” Lift
EX: 204° @.050” .263” Lift
102* LSA

24V Stock:
INT: 159°@.050” .235” Lift
EX: 206° @.050” .297” Lift
107.5* LSA

24V 3rd gen:
INT: 163° @.050” .237” Lift
EX: 191° @.050” .299” Lift
98.5* LSA
Actually he's thinking of it right when 1 it's at TDC of compression both valves for 6 are open hence valve overlap so exhaust doesn't close early.now a far as boost pressure blowing the exhaust out of the cylinder remember to have boost we also must have drive pressure with 1:1 being ideal some turbos are as much as 3:1 so drive pressure would keep exhaust in the cylinder

[icemanjc1]

You're thinking overlap in the wrong way.

What it does is CLOSE the exhaust valve early trapping the exhaust gas and bringing it into the next intake stroke.

And yes it is there.....3rd Gen OEM cams SUCK!

Here are the cam profiles from the various generations. Specifically, look at the lob seperation angle (LSA).


Hence the reason for dirtier oil faster. Exhaust valve closing sooner to keep some heat/soot in the cylinder for the next burn.

[AdamRRT]

Ok overlap I know very well. It's the drive pressure part that I'd overlooked. That makes sense.

By those cam specs, a 24v cam theoretically should really widen the powerband. Toward the bottom end mostly. Is that how it turns out in practice?
Don't get me wrong - if I go to the trouble of a cam swap, I'm going with a custom aftermarket grind. Maybe an off the shelf grind, but slightly less likely. Seems like a cam swap could work wonders for widening the powerband though. Sucks the allowable lift is so small on these trucks. But again I'm spoiled from my cars where you can run a 232/238, 108LSA, .650" lift cam and still daily drive it with ease. Considered to be middle of the road in size - not big - for a 5.7L. I still haven't seen any "top end" grinds for these trucks (yes I mean top end considering the need for torque, not a big stick like I'm talking above).

Does anybody make anything in the 200-210 duration range? They're gonna be able to with guys spinning to 5k! Sweet!

[comnrailpwr]

Hamilton cams has a 188/220 with .330 is what I'm getting ready to purchase. They also have a 200/220 and 207/220 all 3 108LSA and require valve reliefs be put into pistons.

Jake

[AdamRRT]

Oh wow! I hadn't heard of them. Never looked cause I had no reason to. Those are a couple of sweet grinds. Definitely top end right there. Bigger than my goals, but exactly what's needed for these trucks if cranking them to 5k rpm. I can't wait to see one of those make a full run.

How high are you planning to spin your truck?

[comnrailpwr]

All leave the line around 4500Rpm but it'll only carry around 3500 down the track. There are a lot of ppl are spinning his cams to 5k+ in the 1/4 mile scene, not so much in the sled pull scene. Zach is awesome to del with and has some of the best cams out there for are trucks. He doesn't do regrinds either.

Jake

[EverydayDiesel]

Does this look like enough timing for a single event tune?

I cant figure out how to tell how much is too much on a mostly stock truck

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v641/2muchricemakesmesick/12v%20timing.png

[Ghostman]

Does this look like enough timing for a single event tune?

I cant figure out how to tell how much is too much on a mostly stock truck

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v641/2muchricemakesmesick/12v%20timing.png

That is not enough timing at all. Not even close to enough. Search my name and you'll see my map I posted.




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[EverydayDiesel]

Thank you for the reply, I ran that and it spit and sputtered so I know thats not the one lol

Now I have two tunes one that starts with 8 and runs to 21
and the other starts at 13 and goes up to 21

I searched but did not find that graph you were talking about.
https://forum.efilive.com/search.php?searchid=1771348


This is what I have now, can someone please give me some feedback? Basically a stock engine with deletes
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v641/2muchricemakesmesick/single%20event%20tune%20timing%2013-12.png

Also, should i be using the timing calculator for this? I wasnt sure since I am not using pilot or post events anymore.

[Ghostman]

I don't think the timing calculator is for single event tunes honestly. I think you starting with too much timing on that map and not ending with enough. Try making your max more around 24

[Ghostman]

I think this map is fairly current for me. I run stock pilot and timing to 1000 rpm so idling is quieter.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160903/6a56b7662946044da57ab8ee70c4ad3c.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160903/27d2eb38ce2686cc2e9dceef8369acdd.jpg


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[Ghostman]

Actually looking at it i have refined that map much more since


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[EverydayDiesel]

I appreciate any help you can give me. I have this timing table on CSP4 which the truck seemed to be most happy with. I find it weird that I had no haze or smoke on even the lowest setting (the really low timing table I posted earlier), or really on any timing setting. Fuel is still stock but the truck has full deletes

I will take this and bump it up
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v641/2muchricemakesmesick/timing%20csp5.png


I am installing arp 625, springs, and push rods in preparation for a compound kit going on soon.

If you can post your new timing I would greatly appreciate it.

[Ghostman]

Yeah I'll post it up next week. I haven't tuned in a while since I've been driving a company truck lately.


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[super_kev]

Hi Ghostman, any chance at getting you to post up that updated/refined map for us? I'm working off HPTuners but would like to see what you ended up running compared to the timing map you posted on page 5/post #50. Thanks.