Possible ways of tuning the LML?

[THEFERMANATOR]

I know it has been discussed that and said that the LML ECM can no longer be read out due to the new coding in the ECM that prevents reading. What about using a ROADRUNNER type set-up installed into the ECM? I see MOATES is still selling them on there site, and thought that maybe this could be a way of doing this. Or what about getting some tuners in the states equipped to open the ECM physically and read out the tune, then they could in turn put the tune on a flash drive or something and send it back to the customer for tuning? This would still allow the owner of the vehicle to use HIS tune out of his ECM, but he would have a copy of it that he could now adjust accordingly and then flash into his truck. I'm not trying to open a can of worms here, just trying to throw ideas as I know ALOT of LML owners would really like to be able to use EFILIVE on there new trucks to make them exactly how they want them.

[GMPX]

You probably need to search the internet on BMW EDC17 and see just what all the fuss is about when it comes to this ECM.
Here's a good start: http://www.cmdtec.it/prod_bootMEDC17.asp

You also need to appreciate that at some point it just becomes too hard and we need to move on to other more accessible platforms, I know EFILive is not alone here. Sure you might feel that EFILive has abandoned LML owners, but please, it wasn't us that stuck that ECM in the truck. Also, the LML ECM cannot be ordered through GM, they won't sell them to you, so I sure would not be putting my hand up to be pulling them apart to use something like that CMD box on one.
Finally, the flash memory is internal in the CPU, there is nothing a Road Runner type device could connect on to.

This ECM was designed to stop tuners, simple as that.

[slows10]

This ECM was designed to stop tuners, simple as that.[/QUOTE] Do you fear at all that the manufactures will make this more of a trend in the future? Not just diesels but gas as well?

[THEFERMANATOR]

You probably need to search the internet on BMW EDC17 and see just what all the fuss is about when it comes to this ECM.
Here's a good start: http://www.cmdtec.it/prod_bootMEDC17.asp

You also need to appreciate that at some point it just becomes too hard and we need to move on to other more accessible platforms, I know EFILive is not alone here. Sure you might feel that EFILive has abandoned LML owners, but please, it wasn't us that stuck that ECM in the truck. Also, the LML ECM cannot be ordered through GM, they won't sell them to you, so I sure would not be putting my hand up to be pulling them apart to use something like that CMD box on one.
Finally, the flash memory is internal in the CPU, there is nothing a Road Runner type device could connect on to.

This ECM was designed to stop tuners, simple as that.

I'm not up to date on much involving the EDC17 ECM, just had a thought that I thought might allow EFILIVE to expand into a market that many people want. I understand from a business perspective you have to do what is most beneficial to your company though. I have no dog in this fight per say as I'm still old school LB7 DELPHI ECM.

[GMPX]

Do you fear at all that the manufactures will make this more of a trend in the future? Not just diesels but gas as well?
Not for a few years on the gas stuff. GM has moved away from Bosch on the gas cars back to in-house designs so the horrors of what Bosch can do are gone.
None of this would be an issue if we could execute our own bootloader on the Bosch ECM's, but you can't, so whatever they say must go.


I understand from a business perspective you have to do what is most beneficial to your company though.
There is the legalities of it too, someone at GM is going to ask the question on how these trucks are being tuned when the program cannot be read out of them.

[Boost]

It was mega gay of GM to do that. Blame them. So sad

[THEFERMANATOR]

I also see GM's point of view on this subject as well. look at what happened with FORD and the 6.0L. How many of the 6.0L problems were due to tuners and such that pushed the engine over the edge and then those people would go to the dealership expecting it to get fixed. FORD would see that it had been modified with aftermarket performance parts and void the warranty and stick teh customer with the bill as they rightly should(you play you pay). So the customer now badmouths FORD every chance he gets saying how they make a POS, when the problem was brought on because of teh customers addition of performance parts. In the end the customer gets a HUGE bill or a broken truck, and FORD got a HUG black eye and bad publicity. I realize not all of the 6.0L PS problems were due to adding power, but a large portion of them were. GM just decided to go one step furthur beyond there old methods of trace files to keep tabs, and blocked the ECM to cut people off at the pass. Yes it angers some owners who want more power, but in the end it can keep GM from getting a black eye from limped ALLISONS and engine repairs.

Theres 2 sides to every situation.

[GMPX]

FORD Australia have flash counters in their ECM's for the Turbo 6 gas motor they do out here, I'm told by someone at a FORD dealership it's caught plenty of false warranty claims. So yeah, I see GM's side of it as far as that goes, but, not everyone thinks like that either.

[Boost]

Agree with both of you, but consider this: The '01 - '10 Duramax and Allison has been modified extensively, yet NO ONE is bad mouthing the quality of those, or GM for not covering obvious racing damage. Ford should have made a better quality product with the 6.0. I know there are many Allisons that have been limped or destroyed, but customers understand it's because the power is doubled, and the engines are still not blowing up left and right. I always gave GM tremendous credit for building products that were reasonably reliable even severely modded, and now I say: gay move GM :) lol but I understand. People love performance and modding. My 63 year or stepfather has a build LMM, and he will never buy and LML...

[GMPX]

People love performance and modding. My 63 year or stepfather has a build LMM, and he will never buy and LML...
Unfortunately GM probably don't view their trucks as 'performance' vehicles and the accountants want to stop warranty claims. As long as the Duramax continues to use the Bosch EDC17 then I can't see anything changing.

[THEFERMANATOR]

Agree with both of you, but consider this: The '01 - '10 Duramax and Allison has been modified extensively, yet NO ONE is bad mouthing the quality of those, or GM for not covering obvious racing damage. Ford should have made a better quality product with the 6.0. I know there are many Allisons that have been limped or destroyed, but customers understand it's because the power is doubled, and the engines are still not blowing up left and right. I always gave GM tremendous credit for building products that were reasonably reliable even severely modded, and now I say: gay move GM :) lol but I understand. People love performance and modding. My 63 year or stepfather has a build LMM, and he will never buy and LML...

Go to any of the forums and read about people with LB7's having warranty claims denied and how the people bad mouth GM because they didn't get injectors because of a tuner being installed. Theres plenty of cases of people putting in a PPE hot +2 and frying the trans and crying when GM wouldn't rebuild it when they checked the ECM trace files and found the tune being installed. There are LOTS of owners of ALL brands of trucks who mod there trucks and then bad mouth the manufacturers when they won't fix them when they see there 5" exhaust covered in soot, bald tires with rubber all over the fenders from burnouts, air intakes, or they can see the power boxes stacked i nthere trucks still. It's happening with all of them, so I can't really blame GM for blocking the ECM, but I do agree it is a "gay move". If I had just bought a $60K truck and wanted to tune it but couldn't because of the manufacturer blocking it I would be upset too.

Mods, feel free to close this thread as I know you don't want this one to end up like the last LML tuning discussion. I was just throwing out an idea that came to my mind.

[killerbee]

There is the legalities of it too

Is this being considered the same way as satelite card hacking?

[GMPX]

Not sure I can make the link on that comparison.
Our stance on the legalities (for the umpteenth time) is the ECM cannot be read via the OBDII port, end of story there. I cannot say for sure if the ECM can be read by pulling it apart and hooking on equipment to read it that way using what is known as BDM (not always possible on the TriCore CPU it uses by the way). So how is a company supposed to get the stock tunes to then re-distribute to customers? TIS2WEB clearly states in the T&C that any means of copying or distributing the files downloaded from TIS to your PC during a reflash is illegal.
Whilst we appreciate people might think of some scenario that it might be possible, the term flogging a dead horse comes to mind as the response.

[ChipsByAl]

Perhaps if the manufacturer allowed the vehicle to be tuned by an agreement with the current owner. The legal owner would have to submit a form and the actual ECM out of the vehicle. Then GM could "unlock" it or give the owner a base file to start with along with an immediate warranty block. That way the current owner has the vehicle branded while he is in possesion of the vehicle. Nobody down the line of ownership could be accused of being the one that "messed up" the warranty. If you want to play you would need to pay and become responsible. This way of modifying ECU's is done in other performance vehicles already. I know this won't sit very good with everyone, but it could be a solution that takes the burden off of the tuning company.
AL

[vortecfcar]

I have a pile of LML ECMs if anyone wants to experiment. Just saying..

Nick

[CalEditor]

I don't know what to say. I could think of a few ways around it, but you would still need tuning software that would tune the calibration. It's not like you can just change a table and flash it in. The CVN and the Checksum will need to be corrected.

[GMPX]

CalEditor, checksums and flashing is not the problem here. Getting the tune is the issue.

[CalEditor]

It sounds like a the same thing as the 6.5L have, but if EFILive doesn't support this then you need to get the checksum redone.

[CalEditor]

How do you reverse engineer without a BDM?

[pushed2dmax]

CalEditor, checksums and flashing is not the problem here. Getting the tune is the issue.

If you supported these trucks, couldnt you leave it up to the customer to aquire a factory tune?

Sorry about all the questions from the LML guys. We just really need support, and are willing to do whatever we need to.

Pretty please with a cherry on top.

[GMPX]

How do you reverse engineer without a BDM?
Exactly.


If you supported these trucks, couldnt you leave it up to the customer to aquire a factory tune?
Oh no, here we go. Please take the time to read this thread:
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?13812-Info-on-New-LML-engines-for-2011

[pushed2dmax]

Sorry,

I’ve read it like ten times.

We are desperate. These trucks need tuning bad.

Can you give us any hope?

[slows10]

LMAO read it again

[GMPX]

I’ve read it like ten times.
Well then you understand what the problem is, asking over and over for a fix isn't going to change the design of the ECM.


We are desperate. These trucks need tuning bad.
You can go buy a H&S programmer if you want.


Can you give us any hope?
No, but you could write a letter of complaint to:
General Motors
300 Renaissance Center # L1
Detroit

[CalEditor]

I have a pile of LML ECMs if anyone wants to experiment. Just saying..

Nick

I will have Tom contact you to get a ECM to read out

[pushed2dmax]

Well then you understand what the problem is, asking over and over for a fix isn't going to change the design of the ECM.


You can go buy a H&S programmer if you want.


No, but you could write a letter of complaint to:
General Motors
300 Renaissance Center # L1
Detroit


This is my first time asking. I'm just taking my turn. :doh2:

Defiantly don't want to buy an H&S at all; it pains me. I may have to for the short term though.

I will take your suggestion and write the letter.

I'll keep the faith in you guys. I know you will figure something out. If I can help in any way, let me know.

Best Regards

[GMPX]

This is my first time asking. I'm just taking my turn. :doh2:
I know, it's not the first time we've been asked or offered suggestions on how we can offer support, it gets tiresome when the answer can't be changed.


Defiantly don't want to buy an H&S at all; it pains me. I may have to for the short term though.
Mmm, consider it a long term purchase.


I will take your suggestion and write the letter.
I was being sarcastic :shock:


I'll keep the faith in you guys. I know you will figure something out.
No we won't, it's a done deal, the LML ECM is the way it is, GM won't change the design. Everyone just needs to accept this fact and move on or buy another truck.
I try to relate this situation to people by comparing it to the PS3. 'Mod chips' came out for the PS1 & PS2 not long after they were released, but still nothing for the PS3 five years after it's been released because from the first day SONY started the design they wanted to stop exploits and they've succeeded. The Bosch EDC17 ECM design spec I have no doubt comes from the manufacturers wanting to stop tuners modifying them and it's working. We all just need to be thankful that the rest of GM's fleet hasn't headed down this path.

[Biodiesel66]

What about scan tool PID support for BBL and system diagnostic for trouble shooting problems using the Scan Tool?
Many of the PID don't have the correct definition's to work with the ECM when BBL.

[CalEditor]

Just give me a few weeks and lets see what I come up with

[Gregs]

So a friend of mine has an old 88 BMW E30 that he turboed and I have been helping him with tuning using tunerproRT and moates ostrich. First of all THANK YOU EFILIVE!! After using that program i want to come home and hug my V2 and tell it that i'll never let it go! We have it SO GOOD that we forget that we are practically the only ones out there that have a tuning platform that normal people can pick up and be able to learn how to use it. TunerproRT is by no means junk either, I consider that to be middle of the road tuning software, some people are seriously still having to manipulate hex code! Anyways, so i asked my friend if he knew anything about how any of the tables work together with eachother since there's no documentation and he said that he didn't know and mentioned that there are people out there that know how to write from scratch a .bin for that car since its so simple...

So unless you are able to write a .bin of your own or get a standalone i don't think custom tuning is going to happen. H&S looks like what your going to be forced with.

which brings me to another thought I've had. Why are people buying LMLs? The only benefit i can see is the better frame. I'm keeping an eye out there for a wrecked 3/4 ton swap in an LBZ and problems are finished:grin: Also if people boycotted them maybe GM would notice... but probably not.

[joecar]

...
and mentioned that there are people out there that know how to write from scratch a .bin for that car since its so simple...
It's as simple as building a fully functioning space shuttle all by yourself... :doh2:

[Gregs]

It's as simple as building a fully functioning space shuttle all by yourself... :doh2:

:grin::grin::grin::grin::grin:

[GMPX]

WMany of the PID don't have the correct definition's to work with the ECM when BBL.
There's no 'nice' way to say this. Bosch is very inconsistent with GM's PID defines, I would expect the LML ECM will have it's own quirks when it comes to this. The main point of our scantool is to complement the tuning side of the software, when there is no tuning for the LML it would seem a bit silly to spend days getting the LML scantool data spot on. Yes, I know I'll get cut down for saying that, but we are a business after all....nobody buys EFILive to specifically scan the LML. This is no different to some of the Bosch ECM's used on the gas cars, some PID's will log fine, some, maybe not.


So a friend of mine has an old 88 BMW E30 that he turboed and I have been helping him with tuning using tunerproRT and moates ostrich. First of all THANK YOU EFILIVE!! After using that program i want to come home and hug my V2 and tell it that i'll never let it go! We have it SO GOOD that we forget that we are practically the only ones out there that have a tuning platform that normal people can pick up and be able to learn how to use it. TunerproRT is by no means junk either,
There is some 'tuning' solutions for Euro cars that involves you reading the ECM, Emailing it off to someone, they send you a file back to flash in and that's your lot. So I would agree that when you look at what is available for GM & FORD vehicles in the US the choices are very good.


H&S looks like what your going to be forced with.
People seem happy enough with what they are offering, it's sure better than nothing at all.


Why are people buying LMLs?
I really wanted a Chrysler 300C Diesel a few years back, but there is no tuning for them so I quickly dropped that idea (Bosch ECM of course). But that is just how I think when looking to buy.


Also if people boycotted them maybe GM would notice... but probably not.
GM wouldn't care, they were probably very happy that nobody was messing with them (until the handhelds hit the market). It could get a lot worse for LML owners, that ECM is capable of some even stricter security measures, as implemented on some European cars already, GM might go down that path at some point with RSA Signatures.
Some links:
www.cmdtec.it/edc17faq.asp (http://www.cmdtec.it/edc17faq.asp)
www.sharkperformance.co.uk/news/article.asp?id=129 (http://www.sharkperformance.co.uk/news/article.asp?id=129)

There might be a time when even the handhelds can't flash the LML ECM, the technology is there to do this, GM just need to flick the switch.

[Gregs]

i've never used a tech 2 but i've heard that techs are able (or used to be able) to go in and change things like tire size and stuff. Just wondering how deep the techs can get into the ecm. Is the protection inside LML ecm like a (enable/disable) button? You probably know where i'm going :sly:. For the record i don't own a LML, plan to own one, and don't plan on tuning one, just want to know for knowledge's sake.

[CalEditor]

i've never used a tech 2 but i've heard that techs are able (or used to be able) to go in and change things like tire size and stuff. Just wondering how deep the techs can get into the ecm. Is the protection inside LML ecm like a (enable/disable) button? You probably know where i'm going :sly:. For the record i don't own a LML, plan to own one, and don't plan on tuning one, just want to know for knowledge's sake.

GM has does not allow Tech's to adjust tire size in the ECM/PCM with the Tech II

GM allowed Tech to set tire size in the ABS module at one time.

When the dealer installs a set of GM approved GM accessory Rim and Tire packages the Tech will call GM TechLine for a new calibration. At one time they would the tech a VCI # they would need to use in TIS, but that is also gone. Now GM's Techline just updates the calibration for the VIN in the database. The VCI way that was used a few years back the Tech would need to record 2 VCI #'s on the repair order. Techline would give the Tech 2 VCI's one for the OE tire and one for the new tire.

I think that some people will figure out a system shortly, but it may just be for tuner shops

[THEFERMANATOR]

People seem happy enough with what they are offering, it's sure better than nothing at all.

Quite a few owners of the H&S products are not so happy with them, and many are downright cussing them on some of the forums. They have the only offerring though for an emissions delete, so the lack of competition seems to be showing in there tune refinement from what I'm reading. And I didn't mean to start this thread to have a repeat of the other one.

[GMPX]

They have the only offerring though for an emissions delete, so the lack of competition seems to be showing in there tune refinement from what I'm reading.
They probably feel that tune refinement doesn't matter for off-road race trucks though, read the disclaimer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skVZ3oRWQXI


And I didn't mean to start this thread to have a repeat of the other one.
I'm sure we'll have them starting up every 6 months. :doh2:

[Boost]

As long as new D-max keep selling, and the reputation of EFILive tuning them is alive, I am afraid we will be bombarded with requests for the '11+. Heck, just yesterday, I had to explain to a shocked customer how a 2010 can, but 2011 cannot be tuned. After 10 years of massive success tuning Duramax, you can't blame people for asking.

That being said, I for one will not bother you guys about this (unless I am very drunk :) lol) it's beating a dead horse. No one's fault and you don't deserve the headache, but I think it will be a little while before people get used to it. It's all good :cheers:

[duramaximizer]

Who has the pin outs for the lml and the lmm, I'll just swap ecm's. :D

[JoshH]

Who has the pin outs for the lml and the lmm, I'll just swap ecm's. :DNo.

[THEFERMANATOR]

Who has the pin outs for the lml and the lmm, I'll just swap ecm's. :D


No.


X2 The LML uses a completely new style PIEZO injection system that runs at upwards of 200+ volts AC current. The LMM ECM couldn't run it even if you wanted it to.

[CalEditor]

In the near future it looks like we will have a cloned replacement ECM that will allow you to read and write.

[turbo_bu]

CalEditor - That's great news ... I think :)

Stupid question for the day, is that gonna be a LML tune in there? or maybe a LMM tune? Obvious implication is will there be any software to support tuning the new ECM? Or will these be locked tunes / ECM's?

[CalEditor]

This will be the correct part number ECM. It will be modified internally. I am not sure how many we will make.
Option 1 -- We are looking at 1 per tunershop customer. The shop will tune the truck with out PCM, remove it and then install the original and then burn in the tune from the other ECM
Option 2 -- We build a cloned ECM for each customer that is a mirror image of the original except is has the read option. This could be an expensive unit
opyion 3 -- we are not open to discuss that option yet

[JoshH]

CalEditor,

Are you planning on working with EFILive to develop tuning capability for the ECM, or are you going to be developing your own tuning software to work with your ECM? I'll make sure to keep an eye on this for new info.

[GMPX]

EFILive will not be involved in CalEditors project.
CalEditor should also consider further discussions on he's LML tuning project on one of the many Diesel forums, not here. We DON'T want to be seen to be involved.

[TDFDiesel]

I will not sell my LMM or buy a new truck due to the ECM change GM has made, I think everybody who feels the same way should contact GM. If they can substantiate enough vehicle sales lost from people who have previously purchased their products, it may have a small impact on future development. I am fairly confident this will NOT matter for the LML platform though.

[GMPX]

TDFDiesel you make a good point, but would they care? If LML sales don't drop then the answer is no. There would be outrage and revolt of they decided to stop people tuning the Camaro, but I think they know that.

[THEFERMANATOR]

TDFDiesel you make a good point, but would they care? If LML sales don't drop then the answer is no. There would be outrage and revolt of they decided to stop people tuning the Camaro, but I think they know that.

I still think there main reason for this is just like teh recent problems with DPF deletes. Th EPA is tired of diesels bellowing out smoke, so they just went one step furthur to stop it at GM. A tuned CAMARO doesn't black out the highway with exhaust smoke(although some do with tire smoke), but a diesel can black out highways and in some instances cause traffic hazzards.

[schwoch1]

I still think there main reason for this is just like teh recent problems with DPF deletes. Th EPA is tired of diesels bellowing out smoke, so they just went one step furthur to stop it at GM. A tuned CAMARO doesn't black out the highway with exhaust smoke(although some do with tire smoke), but a diesel can black out highways and in some instances cause traffic hazzards.

I have been saying that for years now. It seems as of lately all the diesel guys in this area I live in are more interested in rolling coal than actually making power/improving effiency of the engines. I just had an older gentleman call me today wanting to know how to make his 12V Cummins make black smoke. No mention of extra power or fuel economy, just wanted smoke!!!???? I have a feeling that all the stupid black haze/fog has caught the eyes of the right people in the right places and caused the mess that we are discussing here!!!
My theory with the LML is as follows: The damn thing makes 400 HP FROM THE FACTORY.... do you really need more for daily driving? Also, it carries a warranty for the next 5 years/100K miles, if your worried about emissions problems, they will be covered for a while yet. Maybe by then someone may have something fingered out!!
Just my $.02!!!

Mike

[ScarabEpic22]

True they make 400hp Mike, but Ive heard (and others on here have more info, Ive never driven an LML) that the LML (and LMM) feel horribly choked by the emissions components. I would liken it to the mid-80s gassers, you had to pull the emissions crap off of them back then because they were so choked down, they were almost un-driveable. For DD'ing, probably not an issue, but for guys who regularly tow 10k+, I know at least the early LMMs couldnt burn off the soot in the DPF and would eventually throw a regen cycle in the middle of a tow. Limp home mode until it clears, not really an option out in the middle of nowhere.

This is my interpretation of the emissions control, I dont usually deal with diesels (hope this changes soon...). That said, if there's a way to increase power a little and make the truck more driveable while retaining the emissions controls, Im all for it. Simply making a diesel smoke to make it smoke doesnt seem like a good idea, its gotta be harder on the engine just dumping excess fuel during WOT.

[GMPX]

I believe all the Diesel race cars at LeMans run a DOC and DPF.

[Boost]

I can't believe I am saying this (Mr. anti-epa / straightpipe everything) lol but truthfully the emissions equipment / dpf systems have come a long way. I drive and work on LMLs and they are actually quite fast stock and don't get too many problems usually. Of course there is no comparison to tuned / modded but yes it does feel like 400 hp / 800 tq (397 / 765) for the weight and it's ok to live with the stock system if you have to. There. Getting grown.... :/
Now give me a straightpipe / EFILive '10 LMM for MY daily driver anyway!!! :)

[Cougar281]

I believe all the Diesel race cars at LeMans run a DOC and DPF.

And the DOC & DPF probably get replaced every race. The DPF is an expensive unilateral wet-dream joke from someone at the 'EPA' (Either that, or someone associated with the oil companies; I've heard reports of DPF-deleted TDI Jettas getting 10-15MPG better on the highway). I don't know how it's going to pan out with the LMM/LML, but with my wife's '10 TDI Jetta, you have to start checking the DPF's ash loading after about 100k, and when it gets to a certain threshold, you have to replace it.... to the tune of $3,500!!!!! There is NO WAY IN #$%# I'm paying $3,500 to replace that thing. If I can't find a way to get a new tune in that car and yank that worthless POS once the warranty is up, the car's gone at 100k. Hopefully something similar isn't lurking in the shadows for the LMM/LML. Bottom line is WE should not have to pay to replace this EXPENSIVE crap that is shoved down our throats when it gos bad. If the 'EPA' is going to require it, THEY should be paying to fix/replace it.

[cumminsho13]

Bottom line is WE should not have to pay to replace this EXPENSIVE crap that is shoved down our throats when it gos bad. If the 'EPA' is going to require it, THEY should be paying to fix/replace it.

Dang right! That has always been my gripe with emissions, I have seen way to much money go down the crapper in my dad's business trucks in the way of EGRs, Catalytic converters, and the hell they cause in the engine itself, not to mention and now we have DPFs DOCs and SCRs which cause even more hell! All that money for some emissions crap is hard for a small business owner to swallow especially when it happens more than once. Thats the whole reason I got into diesel tuning at the ripe old age of 13. I will say since thats happened its opened many doors and is why I now love diesels with a passion but when I look at emissions control the it really doesn't seem like the pros out-weigh the cons unless you have a lifetime warranty.

[CalEditor]

Design a better mouse trap and sell it to GM.

[schwoch1]

Design a better mouse trap and sell it to GM.
That is EXACTLY what I was thinking. I am sure if you have a better idea, the diesel engine manufacturers will compnesate you VERY, VERY well for it!!!

Mike

[Boost]

I have a better idea, get rid of the EPA. First of all, the earth (and all creation) was cursed (Genesis 3:17) and is being destroyed with or without emissions. We don't have the power to save it any more than to destroy it. :)

And what's more, when diesels were getting close to 30 mpg on the highway with no emissions crap, we were going through less barrels of oil. And people had more money to maintain their vehicles so they won't run bad and pollute when we weren't wasting it on DPF and EGR related nonsense. My 2 cents....

[GMPX]

And what's more, when diesels were getting close to 30 mpg on the highway with no emissions crap, we were going through less barrels of oil.
Roland, I'm with you on that. It seems counter productive to burn more fuel to have less emissions. I wonder how the big rigs get along? I assume they also have DPF's etc these days. You have to figure when some poor trucker spends an extra $200 in fuel per interstate haul that's going to hurt.

[THEFERMANATOR]

Roland, I'm with you on that. It seems counter productive to burn more fuel to have less emissions. I wonder how the big rigs get along? I assume they also have DPF's etc these days. You have to figure when some poor trucker spends an extra $200 in fuel per interstate haul that's going to hurt.


The truckers don't feel it as bad as you might think, they simply pass the cost off onto us the consumer. And yes big rigs have to use it as well as we are now seeing the blue fuel caps on teh small tanks behind teh main tanks everywhere you look. The EPA has become a monster that is looking for ways to justify there existence, and are manufacturing concerns that shouldn't be there. I know my BURB without emissiosn crap gets an honest to goodness 21+ MPG running down the interstate at 70, and it doesn't hardly smoke at all. I just did an LBZ and he went from 18 to 21.5 and still maintains zero smoke after we took his emissions off and tuned it. So how is all this crap helping anybody but the EPA and the companies that manufacture the equipment? Follow the money, it will show you the true meaning.

[GMPX]

Well, you know who to vote for in the next election.

[cumminsho13]

Nah, here in the U.S. voting doesn't do anything anymore, they are all the same and will all support the EPA because it is an unconquerable Godly being that, said very well by THEFERMANATOR, "is just looking for ways to justify there existence" :rant: We just have to keep our LB7, LLY, LBZ, LMM, 5.9, and 6.7 trucks :thumb_yello:

[Cougar281]

I have a better idea, get rid of the EPA. First of all, the earth (and all creation) was cursed (Genesis 3:17) and is being destroyed with or without emissions. We don't have the power to save it any more than to destroy it. :)


You will zero argument from me on that one!




And what's more, when diesels were getting close to 30 mpg on the highway with no emissions crap, we were going through less barrels of oil. And people had more money to maintain their vehicles so they won't run bad and pollute when we weren't wasting it on DPF and EGR related nonsense. My 2 cents....

No kidding... Everyone is always crying about CO2 emissions. I can't see how the addidional fuel being burned would reduce CO2 output. I don't think EGR has an benefit on a properly tuned engine. The last time my car was dyno'd for emissions, it was WELL within limits with the EGR disabled.

[THEFERMANATOR]

Another crazy idea about possible tuning methods for the LML/LGH. You've probably already thought of this one, but how about doing a CAL flash to put the code in to be able to read the tune out of the ECM? I know the problem has been that you can't read the stock tune out, and flashing them isn't the problem. Would it be possible to take your bench ECM and write your own code that could in turn be cal flashed into the ECM, then be able to read the full tune out of teh OBD2 port? If this CAL flash was possible, it would circumvent GM's method of simply excluding the software for reading. I know it's a crazy idea, but sometimes it's the crazy ideas that can lead to the impossible.

[GMPX]

The calibrations can't control what can or can't be read, it's an OS thing, but lets not go there again, it is what it is. So not only is that ECM locked down, we now have Diesel tuning products disappearing from sale all over the place. It's all pretty miserable really.

[THEFERMANATOR]

The calibrations can't control what can or can't be read, it's an OS thing, but lets not go there again, it is what it is. So not only is that ECM locked down, we now have Diesel tuning products disappearing from sale all over the place. It's all pretty miserable really.


It was just a hair brained idea I had and thought I would throw out there.

[superwagon]

Well, you know who to vote for in the next election.
No I am not sure who I will be voting for in the next election? But I am positive who I won't be voting for!:grin:

[catman3126]

I'm sure this has been asked but I have not found it in a search anywhere. How is H S tuning the LML since it can't be read? bully dog (Which I hear is tied together with HS) is tuning them and I see Hypertech has a small tune out for them as well. Where are they getting the tune to modify or how is this done?. too bad there's not a way to flash in a Custom OS that modified the OS that stops the reading of the stock flash. so how long will it be before someone makes an aftermarket ecm that will run the LML? anybody ever seen the ZEUS ecm for the Cummins? that is a stand alone ecm for the Common rail cummins that will run the common rail 5.9 or 6.7 If they can make one for the Cummins I bet they can make one for the LML.

http://www.destroked.com/zeus.php

This explains how it works and it sounds like it works similar tot he way all our duramax's work with switch on the fly tunes.

[GMPX]

Where are they getting the tune to modify or how is this done?.
Well, I don't know, but I am 99.9% sure their hand held units have the modified tunes already on them so they don't need to read the ECM. How they got the tunes to begin with is their little secret, it's possible they found some back door method once the ECM is pulled apart, just like many of the European tuners have to do with something like THIS (http://www.cmdtec.it/prod_bootMEDC17.asp).


so how long will it be before someone makes an aftermarket ecm that will run the LML? anybody ever seen the ZEUS ecm for the Cummins? that is a stand alone ecm for the Common rail cummins that will run the common rail 5.9 or 6.7 If they can make one for the Cummins I bet they can make one for the LML.
That might be the next step, however, I think you will find the Zeus ECM is a true race only application, no DPF control and other OEM functions.

[THEFERMANATOR]

Well, I don't know, but I am 99.9% sure their hand held units have the modified tunes already on them so they don't need to read the ECM. How they got the tunes to begin with is their little secret, it's possible they found some back door method once the ECM is pulled apart, just like many of the European tuners have to do with something like THIS (http://www.cmdtec.it/prod_bootMEDC17.asp).


That might be the next step, however, I think you will find the Zeus ECM is a true race only application, no DPF control and other OEM functions.

I'm pretty sure they are using one of these kits like you linked to as they have said a few times that they bench flash there in house ECM for product development. So it sounds like they are using TIS to get the tunes and flash into the ECM, then using this backdoor reader inside on the actual motherboard to read out the actual tune. As for the ZEUS, I don't think it is capable of operating the PIEZO injectors that the new LML's use as this option has been discussed before. The high voltage PIEZO injectors they went to in 11 sure through a monkey wrench into the mix for retrofitting, otherwise converting it to an LMM ECM would have been done already.

[DURAtotheMAX]

Not to bring this thread back from the dead, but to anyone who has an LML.....If you really want to tune your LML, buy LMM heads, injectors, fuel system, ECM, and engine-bay wiring harness. Swap the heads/fuel system onto the LML short block, swap wiring harnesses (the LMM engine bay/ECM harness will plug into the LML body/underhood fuse box, just like swapping a Dmax into a suburban/tahoe), and away you go. All of the LML body electronics/databusses are compatible with the LMM ECM, etc...

You could probably even do the swap in a weekend, because its all bolt-on/plug-and-play.

If I had the money, I would definitely buy an LML and do that just for grins... If you buy the LMM parts used/junk yard, it really wouldnt cost that much either. And then you get the sweet 2011+ chassis/transmission/drivetrain and stuff...while being able to tune it with EFILive. I even already have all of the necessary parts sitting in various piles around my shop...if anyone around New England has an LML and wants to get crazy with it, let me know...Ill do the swap for free. :D

ben

[GMPX]

Ben, funny you should bring this up. Yesterday I was speaking to someone who has a tuning package from a European company for European cars. They actually support tuning for the LML as it's an EDC17 variant (well, they can read and flash them, no editor as such). I said to him that I had one here if he wanted to borrow it to play around, but to be able to use this tuning package you need to pull the ECM apart and put it in to boot mode whenever you want to read or flash it.
So I offered to hook the wire up for him (see picture below as supplied by he's tuner). Now, I have been soldering for 25+ years, I have a really nice Hakko professional station, and I managed to ruin the board.
The moment the iron touched the pad shown it lifted off the PCB ruining any chance of using this ECM with he's tuner. Imagine needing to do this any time you wanted to program the ECM (in the truck too), if this is the future of programming for GM Diesels, it's looking very bleak. We can only hope that when GM start selling the Diesel Cruze or Diesel Cadillac CTS in the USA it's not using one of these horrid ECM's too.
Now before anyone starts a "why can't you just" thread again, EFILive is NOT going to be supporting the LML, all complaints (which would fall on deaf ears) should be directed to GM or Bosch.

Cheers,
Ross

http://download.efilive.com/Staff/GMPX/EDC17_Boot.png

[CalEditor]

N0DIH could solder on that board

[GMPX]

Perhaps it was my hatred for the ECM that trying to solder it with a hammer in my left hand wasn't a good idea :mrgreen:
You guys were working on something for them right? How's it coming along?

[CalEditor]

Tom solders cell phone parts with a Microscope

[Cougar281]

From what I've read, it's possible to flash the ECM, but not read, the inability to read is an OS thing, not a hardware thing, and the primary (if not only) reason EFILive will not support the LML is because without the ability to read the ECM, the only way to support it would be to distribute the GM tunes with EFILive, which would be a violation of the TIS2Web EULA and would almost certainly bring GM down on you, correct? Out of curiosity, is it possible to flash an OS without disturbing the tuning? If that's possible, what about writing a 'custom' OS (like a DSP2 or something, even if there was no way to actually use the '2' function) that can be flashed which would then allow a read to be able to tune? Or maybe something like 'blindly' flashing a patch to the OS (I'd assume the handheld tuners out there for hte LML do something similar to this)? Honestly, I have no dog in this 'fight' and really could care less if the LML ever gets tuning support. I do not have one, nor will I ever (I'll never have anything newer than an 07 Classic, even though the new trucks are very nice). It's just my curiosity.

[GMPX]

Now before anyone starts a "why can't you just" thread again, EFILive is NOT going to be supporting the LML, all complaints (which would fall on deaf ears) should be directed to GM or Bosch.


....is it possible to flash an OS without disturbing the tuning? If that's possible, what about writing a 'custom' OS (like a DSP2 or something.....
Happy to leave this thread open for others to discuss what they find out there on the internet for the LML, but please understand this ECM is like poison to anyone operating in the USA. 99% of people just want to pull off the DPF, Urea etc, for that very reason I am glad we don't support it given the current political views on smoking Diesel trucks. Sometimes there is more to overcome than technical problems.


Tom solders cell phone parts with a Microscope
To be honest, I wasn't upset, gave me a good excuse to stick the ECM back away at the bottom of a box somewhere, outta sight, outta mind.

[rcr1978]

Ben whats the difference in the heads? It woudn't be that bad if LMM injectors would go in them, did they get a redesign for the injector hole?

[DURAtotheMAX]

Ben whats the difference in the heads? It woudn't be that bad if LMM injectors would go in them, did they get a redesign for the injector hole?

the injector bores in the LML heads are completely different size/shape to fit the new piezo injectors.

[Boost]

Ben, funny you should bring this up. Yesterday I was speaking to someone who has a tuning package from a European company for European cars. They actually support tuning for the LML as it's an EDC17 variant (well, they can read and flash them, no editor as such).

That must be Denny lol

[L31Sleeper]

Hey Ross Just out of curiosity would it help if you had one of these ECMs in your hands ?
I am willing to obtain one via ANY MEANS NECESSARY, if you would be willing to book a flight ?

Thanx
-Justin

[GMPX]

Thanks, but we've had one for probably a year now, they make an awesome front wheel chock if you are jacking the back of a car up :mrgreen:

[Boost]

Lol !!! :)

[rcr1978]

You need two.......One to shit on and the other to wipe your ass with haha :joke:

[killerbee]

Kind of heavy. They make a firecracker louder when set on top of it.

[GMPX]

One to shit on and the other to wipe your ass with
Ouch!!

[L31Sleeper]

Hey Ross if you were able to solider that wire on the board,
would that have made any difference ??

-Justin

[GMPX]

Hey Ross if you were able to solider that wire on the board, would that have made any difference ??
Not really, because that is what YOU would have to do to read out the tune (http://magpro2.helpserve.com/index.php?_m=knowledgebase&_a=printable&kbarticleid=18). Again, flashing isn't the issue, getting the tune (legally) is.

[L31Sleeper]

So that is normal for BMW guys ???????? Does that boot wire allow you to read out the tune ????

-Justin

[GMPX]

So that is normal for BMW guys ????????
Pretty sure it is, even before the EDC17 came along they have had to do crazy stuff like that on a lot of European makes.


Does that boot wire allow you to read out the tune ????
I assume so, plus some of those can't be flashed via OBDII (too much security) so you would be programming it like that too.

[L31Sleeper]

Well...........You know those moments when you get the BIG picture....I just had one of those.

Thanx for the info.
-Justin

[MAXX IT OUT]

I was just wondering if you could swap them ECM from LMM to the LML? Then you would be able to tune it from there.

[TDFDiesel]

I was just wondering if you could swap them ECM from LMM to the LML? Then you would be able to tune it from there.

Have to change injectors and quite a few more parts.

[MAXX IT OUT]

So the only people that can tune the LML is H&S performace?

[TDFDiesel]

So the only people that can tune the LML is H&S performace?

EFI Live doesn't support it, I guess that's all that is important here.

Ben at BT Diesel Works has some ideas I've seen him post on how to modify it enough to tune, but its a lot of work for little reward.

[MAXX IT OUT]

how much power gain is he getting out it.

[catman3126]

I don't believe has has done this mod, there is a post earlier on in the thread that he states all the modifications that would be needed to make the LML run with LMM electronics.

[TDFDiesel]

how much power gain is he getting out it.

He has a theory, not done. You can swap stock stuff for 530hp or run H&S for not much less and a lot less $$ and headache.

[MAXX IT OUT]

thanks

[killerbee]

If anyone has PN info or source info and pinout info on the ECM connectors, please post it here.

[Cknight199]

Hi im new to the forum, but not to duramax's. I have an Lbz, but i was wondering what is holding back tuning for the LML engines. I know its the ECM, but what specifically is holding it back. how can we get past it? is funding towards the lml the reason? and did H&S crack the code? or do you have to crack more codes? meaning is the code that H&S have different than what you need to fully unclock the ECM? has anyone ever reached out to GM about the tuning? saying its beneficial?

[Dmaxink]

Call GM and see if they will unlock the files so it can be legally obtained.

[Cknight199]

Call GM and see if they will unlock the files so it can be legally obtained.

Haha that avatar looks familiar. And I'm guessing that remark was sarcastic haha.

[Dmaxink]

Lol yes but in a nice way if that makes any sense! Lolol

[Cknight199]

Lol yes but in a nice way if that makes any sense! Lolol

Yea I know you coulda said, call gm and ask if they will give you the keys to mess with their tuned ECM so you can return the truck when something breaks under warranty while tuned.

[GMPX]

Hi im new to the forum, but not to duramax's. I have an Lbz, but i was wondering what is holding back tuning for the LML engines.
You realise you are at page 11 of a thread that contains all the answers you are looking for?

[gp184]

You realise you are at page 11 of a thread that contains all the answers you are looking for?

:thankyou2:

[cindy@efilive]

Our stance has changed somewhat, EFILive is now pleased to support LML FLASHING (not reading, not mapping, just flashing). An updated thread is available here http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?22146-LML-Flashing-Support&p=187943#post187943

Cheers
Cindy

[cindy@efilive]

And then we moved some more....full tuning support will now be available. Screen shots, videos and release announcement etc can be found here http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=23006

Cheers
Cindy