Setting certain things to zero yeilds nothing???

[icem237]

:cucumber: :cucumber: :blahblah: :blahblah:

[AdamRRT]

As I said in another post (that got no attention), I think there's a LOT of tables and limiters that we're not privy to. The question becomes when EFI staff (I'm new and don't know who all that includes, and it's not a cut on anyone) is going to get on that. They may be, but it seems to get very little attention. Yes, one can blind tune on the dyno (well not blind but start with general numbers then add timing, add duration, see what brings the best power), but that's not much of an option for many of us who don't work with or own a dyno of our own. We'd like to start with the right theory (if tables and numbers were available and correct) and then do it in an affordable dyno session. But at this point it doesn't look like it's possible when people are getting results like yours today. Frustrating and under-developed is an understatement at this point.

Don't get me wrong. I know about custom tuning and I think the current state of EFI Live for the Cummins 5.9 is a great start so far. But that's about it really. The whole 20* thing not always panning out, the thing with people telling it to limit duration to BTDC and still running just fine at all RPM, the commanding more duration than the limiters allow but still getting improved results (that equal out to 25* BTDC and 45* ATDC yet making more power), all just seems like there's a lot missing as of right now. I expected such, but I don't know that I expected it to the degree that I'm hearing from a few members.

I'm REALLY excited to see how EFI Live develops. I WANT it to work like it should. I just think we're in a very primitive state right now that I'm dying to get answers to. Anybody else notice this?

[GMPX]

I think there's a LOT of tables and limiters that we're not privy to.
I wouldn't disagree, it's the same on any tuning software that is not supplied by the manufacturer, we aren't subsidiary of Cummins! We don't and will probably never know all the answers when it comes to the Cummins or any other ECM. You should be well aware of this fact coming from a background of tuning LS1's.


The question becomes when EFI staff (I'm new and don't know who all that includes, and it's not a cut on anyone) is going to get on that.
One person, me, I am the only one working on Cummins, that includes working on the 6.7L seeing the light of day, managing the beta team.......oh yeah and every GM computer we support too.


Frustrating and under-developed is an understatement at this point.
Ok, well, now imagine going back to where Cummins owners were 6 months ago. If the current release is so disappointing for you may I suggest Ebay and sell what you have.


The whole 20* thing not always panning out
We are pretty sure we have the answer to that, but everyone will need to understand that if we release new .calz files and scantool data with that offset taken in to account this is going to mean you will have to scrap any scripts you may have already created. It's a big change that needs to be really thought about thoroughly.


I just think we're in a very primitive state right now that I'm dying to get answers to. Anybody else notice this?
Primitive, wow, I don't know what to say. Perhaps take some time to look around at what tuning software on other makes is like. I know European tuners that have to tune cars by manipulating hex numbers!
I am personally offended by your statements because what I see is 6 to 8 months of my work being talked down like it's some backyard hack effort, we aren't Cummins Adam, I don't know anyone at Cummins to ask how this all works.
Oh, and last time I checked I don't have the gift to perform miracles either.

[AdamRRT]

I sincerely apologize. It in no way was an insult. Let me clarify: primitive compared to your amazing work on the GM. Yes, I'm aware that there are YEARS of development history between the two. And had that been part of what matters, I'd have said it. I would hope that I don't need to specify that. You are doing a great job, man. I'm just really excited about it and am pretty amazed that we are hearing nothing about these odd differences between commanded and actual. It's not an insult to you, so please don't take it that way Ross. Although I kind of figured instead of info on the issues, I'd get attacked instead. You didn't do that very badly, so that's cool. I didn't expect you would. You're pretty down to Earth so far, although I'd rather hear possible solutions instead of telling me tough crap you aren't concerned with happy customers and would rather I just sell the product rather than see it addressed. Man, I'm not against you. You are doing great. Ok? Let's not get sensitive. I didn't mean it that way. COMPARED TO YOUR GM WORK, it's primitive. Compared to what's needed to perform an comprehensive tune, it's a little behind. Do you disagree?

[AdamRRT]

And yes I'm aware of the way it works. "Crank units" (yes, HPT talk) wasn't even understood until my friend wrote the code to compare crank signals to cam signals. So yeah there's always a lot of hiccups. I just told a guy this tonight. That it's to be expected. I think I just was blown away when I was told about this thing were one set his entire duration to BTDC and didn't notice it running any differently. Sounds like a HUGE part of the puzzle is missing.

Ross, I know that tuning SRT4s is kind of odd because the MOPAR computer has what the SRT4 guys describe as a learning function. Of course we know that's done according to parameters, but still that's pretty much a stretch compared to having to tune every aspect as with an LSx car. Do you think part of the issues we're seeing is due to such behaviors in the MOPAR ECM that we (EFI Live) can't see at all, or if you can, can't do anything with?

I'm really excited to soak up the info and get a tune on this thing but it's pretty scary to hear this stuff. 24* BTDC with a total of 61* of timing needed (something like that) for the injector pulse commanded seems insane! And say the 20* is skewed to BTDC and it was 44* BTDC. Seems like a ton there too. I'd love for you to tell us what you think about it since you've got more understanding of it than any of it.

[GMPX]

All I can ask is for patience, I just had a quick look at a few of the GM platforms we support.
The Duramax Bosch ECM based tuning was released in Dec 2006, we were still adding new new tables in mid 2010 with probably double the amount of tables as the first release had.
The E38 GenIV V8 ECM, first release was June 2007, I actually just added in a few new things in July 2011.
Cummins has only been out since June 2011, so I am not surprised it's not got everything 100% sorted yet.
At the same time look at what has been achieved in those 3 months compared to what was out there in a box.

I have often wondered why no other company hasn't attempted a tuning package for the Cummins, I now know why. It is very, very odd in it's operation, not odd in a bad way, just complex. The difference of course between a handheld and EFILive is you are visually presented with maps and an explanation on how they all work by which you can judge the "completeness of the product". With no 'how to' book from Cummins by which to go by, unfortunately some of what you see is speculation and appears a little vague. The approach we have to take is no different to assembling a desk from Ikea or someone like that. Picture you get the desk home, put the instructions in the bin then try to assemble it. It's trial and error, you will make mistakes, slowly but surely the big picture will all fall in place and you'll complete it.

I am not complaining about you requesting that things be better, how else can we measure what we do. But for all those months I work solid on the Cummins the GM customers feel neglected and start complaining, it's not an easy balance let me tell you.

[AdamRRT]

I'm sure it's tough. I in no way envy you.

Let me ask you a blunt question:
What do you HONESTLY have to say to those of us wanting to use EFI Live to comprehensively (custom-worthy street daily driving manners as well as max effort results) tune our trucks, since it's in public release form?

I ask because I think many are way off base with their wishes, compared to their view of the reality of the current condition of the software. I think we're serving more as beta testers than as full release customers. And that's okay. Just seems that those who I've talked to who aren't as aware of the ongoing development process associated with custom tuning software are scratching their heads wondering what they've gotten themselves into since things aren't doing what they are described as. My answer is repeatedly "This is normal. We need EFI Live to open up more tables and limiters and PIDs before we'll understand what you're asking." I just think they would benefit from hearing it from you.

Thanks for being cool and relaxing as I understand and didn't mean it to be as you took it. It's my lot in life. Any time something can be taken two ways, it seems people always assume I'm trying to be a jerk instead of just having a discussion of principle instead of feelings. :(

[zfuller123]

Adam.... I'd like to pop in here - not to take sides, but to see if maybe i can help steer this to a productive thread to get questions answered (so Ross has something to work from when he can get to it, #1) and to see if perhaps there was something else amiss with the tuning.

I have been on the beta team for the cummins since January of this year - tuning multiple trucks from the day the software was first given to me. I can say that it has NOT always performed the way we thought it should. Many many questions. I have also done everything i could to help get Ross the data he needed to get EFILive past what any other 'package' currently can offer in terms of big RPMs, big fuel, etc - all WITHOUT any foolers, pressure boxes, etc...

That being said - the -20* offset question has been a debate for most of us on the beta team since around March (if memory serves). People like Nick (Cummins Tuner) have done testing to try and get Ross even more input on this issue in particular. There are lots of sides to consider, and at the point of release the decision was to leave it alone until we could prove, without a question - what the deal was and *IF* it always applied, or really only applied sometimes.

While I don't disagree with you that there are some other tables buried that we haven't had access too - I would say that creating a custom tune for about any truck and keeping it street driven ("streetable"), while making big power and all the other things you've mentioned is completely possible with the current state of the software. If there is a truck out there NOT responding to the -20* offset, that is something that would be GREAT to see in a log - and if the OP of this thread would like to share a log and his tune that he tested with, I'd be happy to look at it as would Ross and any number of other testers on here... There are multiple possibilities here.... but, since he is lucky enough to have the ability to CUSTOM tune this truck to operate knowing that the timing -20* offset is different on his truck. Not a big problem, but definitely a concernI would agree.

This is WHY EFILive, in my opinion, outdoes the rest. We have the ability to see data coming back from the ECM. Perhaps there's a buried table somewhere in there that has different timing for idle versus 'run' mode. You are again right in that things like this are sure to exist. My question is, on this point, does it really stop the truck from being able to be completely tuned and improved for the given set of mods? I don't believe I have any unhappy customers with their results on EFILive (short of 1 that is still happy with the tuning, but is fighting mechanical issues with CP3/Injectors)... There is DEFINITELY a curve here, in the Cummins world - but it's not impossible to overcome with the current state of the software.

I'm just saying that pretty much the only thing I disagree with in your statement is that a 'max effort' or 'drivable' truck isn't a reality with teh current state of the software. That is simply not true. I can say, on that same note, that some trucks DEFINITELY require more effort to get them dialed in - but it IS possible. Some things there could be better ways to accomplish this - many of which i'm sure will come in time.

Again, i'm not bashing at all.I'm trying to throw out a helping hand if I can to you or the OP. He has a valid concern if his tune is set as he described and there is no change in the timing. I would love to see the logs of this versus the tune he's testing with. It would be something that I think definitely merits some attention, although as I said - I don't see any reason taht would STOP this truck from being able to be tuned and sent on his merry way happy as a clam. Just takes time and some understanding of what's going on with THAT truck. Believe me, i've had plenty of trucks come along that required a little more than a "quick tune"... Just part of the gig!

Let me know if there is something I can do to help....

[GMPX]

What do you HONESTLY have to say to those of us wanting to use EFI Live to comprehensively (custom-worthy street daily driving manners as well as max effort results) tune our trucks, since it's in public release form?
Tuning feedback is mixed, some people are creating tunes far better than anything on the market, others are battling.
Customers aren't our beta testers. As far as I know not one Cummins ECM flash failure has occurred with EFILive, that doesn't just happen by sticking the software out there and hoping it goes well.
I was also just looking over the LS1 development files we have and I can see I was adding in idle control parameters two years after release, something considered critical on the LS1 engine, that doesn't mean LS1 was in Beta for two years prior to that and it doesn't mean nobody could tune an LS1 up to that point. I'm not sure how Cummins is going to end up being any different. If it is considered a product is in Beta because it doesn't have every table in existence in there, nor a 100% functionality grasp on the system then yes, it's beta.
Cummins owners have had to put up with the lesser of two evils when it came to the box tuners. You want to select the big power setting? Expect a very smoky ill mannered truck afterwards. Tone down the smoke and ill manners and it won't make the power. One of the main things expressed to us from Cummins tuners was if we were ever to have any hope of overcoming the domination of Smarty's market share we have to conquer the high RPM fuel limiting. That is certainly an area I have been focused on for many months, it was a tough job to finally conquer it. So to me, I look at that as we have accomplished something no other product could do up until this day. They have have years to refine tunes (some may argue they still haven't), so to expect EFILive to have the answer to everything since we released just 3 or so months ago is a bit of a high expectation isn't it?
To put it in perspective, IDAPro (which is software we use to generate disassemblys of the code) spits out about 100,000 lines of code to sift through, no simple and quick way to make sense of that I'm afraid. I'm not trying to make excuses, just put it in perspective.

It's a growing product, when we posted here on release:
http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113232

It states in that post the following key point.
"This release contains 140 tables / parameters for tuning and we expect this list to grow significantly as we work with customers who tune their vehicles for specific purposes that will require further parameters to optimize their setup and as we ourselves learn more about the operation of the ECM."
I think last count we are currently at around 170 tables and parameters in total, so it is evolving.
As stated there, we worked with customers to tune for a specific purpose, that primarily has been high RPM with full fuel.
I am confident our Duramax customers who are now doing Cummins are feeling very positive towards how things are going, they have seen Duramax evolve over the years in to what it is today and know Cummins will also get there too.

[FUBAR]

First I'll address the OP, yes, I too am getting the same result.

To address Adam: I see where he's coming from. I believe there are PID's that we're seeing out of the scantool that are not true. That goes back to my mm3 thread. How can I make more power between base files with the same numbers I'm seeing out of the scantool? Adam is just concerned with that the Cummins platform via EFILive gets it's attention and is developed best and truly it can. If Joe Blow buys EFILive, gets a professional tuner to throw a tune on their truck, they're happy because it's better than what they've had, then great! That's great I can say that about EFILive. But what I am not enthusiastic to say is the tuning missing or untrue numbers for people pushing the envelope and pioneering things like single event tunes and trying to match Smarty pound for pound down low to mid range. Happy Joe Blow or Joe Blow's professional tuner doesn't care because they're in a happy place, but is ignorant because they not know what else is below the surface. Adam really truly is just trying to better EFILive, it's just his way going about it that is different than someone else.

To address Zfuller: thanks for being neutral and trying to contribute to the thread. It's people like you that sits on both sides of the fence that I appreciate.

Ross: first and foremost, thank you for your efforts, time and achievements. I understand we do need to be patient. We Americans aren't too good at that I'll admit. But it's that intense drive and fire that makes wonders as well. I'll just want to say, I hope a lot of development doesn't cease because of the happy state most people are in right now. I believe we are seeing parameters in the Scantool that aren't completely true and/or PID's that we need to see, but just haven't yet. I hate to beat a dead horse, but again as an example looking back to my mm3 thread. I need to know everything I'm plugging into my tables are what the truck is going to be taking. If that's not the case in whole, fine. Let me try to help make that the case. Whether it be info saying, this doesn't work, or hey, I got this result but it makes no sense that I did, etc whatever. I too just want to better the platform.

-Andrew

[AdamRRT]

Guys: let me point out that Ross and I have talked and we understand where each other are coming from. It was a misunderstanding and all things can be taken either as simple observation, or as an attack. I have explained that it wasn't an attack, so let's move on beyond that little tiff. That's old news.

Also anybody else with any experience/knowledge to add, PLEASE chime in as it addresses the issues being discussed.

So Ross (and everyone else - Kyle, Rich, etc.), do you mean that while doing the pointless things don't matter (like trying to put all your duration BTDC on a diesel), that when using realistic tuning parameters the numbers make sense?
And what about the mm3's being way above what's commanded, despite duration and pressure PIDs remaining the same?
I'm just trying to make sense out of the little info that's available... not roadmapping the entire ECM. So don't take that the wrong way. Even with one of my best buddies having a dyno and being a great tuner, I haven't got the time nor resources to just sit around and subject my truck to hundreds of full-throttle dyno pulls until trial and error works it out. As you know, we typically start with what we know is sensible on every vehicle, then adjust for what the mods SHOULD do, then adjust for what they actually do once strapped to the rollers. I can't imagine where that leaves the average guy who is paying full price for dyno time.

I'm just wondering what the actual thought is on it all. I think that full fueling to 5k rpm appeals to a very narrow market. So while I'm happy for those guys, it means nothing to me. I'd be fine making custom-worthy power (aka all box killer) at normal rpm instead. Full fueling to 3500 would leave me satisfied if I thought I could be comfortable that I won't burn down my truck. And I'm sure that the majority of the customers would be.

[DoghouseDiesel]

I'm not even getting into the debate.

Some folks simply need to learn to tune and not copy other folks stuff or script over other tunes.

If parameters aren't working on one operating system, try a different OS. Some of the OS's don't work worth a crap. My stock OS wouldn't work worth a crap, but as soon as switched to the *****409 OS, no issue.

As far as it taking hundres of pulls on the dyno.....it takes me about 10 pulls to dial in a truck, then it's just a little street driving to take care of the smoke.

Sounds like your "buddy" that's a "great tuner" needs to do some more research.

That's all I have to add, so please don't bring my name into it. I didn't write your tune.

[Dmaxink]

I will say this: I have run and seen the tune that andrew has seen the mm3 fluctiation with and fuels super super hard down low... I can't explain what is going on there..but i can say this. I created a map that fills in the pulse and pressure as i datalog and off of this map i got the pulse and pressure that his tune (scripted over the smarty) was making. No it did not match up with what we calling for in the tune, but this was, however, scripted over the smarty file. When i take the data i collected in the map and plug it into the tune scripted over a TRUE original stock file, it runs the same way with logged data matching accordingly. This goes to say that we can make a tune that fuels as hard as the smarty down low, and/or beyond.... I do not have the answer to it, but i do know that efilive can go even,above, and beyond what the smarty is capable of with or without current tables....

just my .02, now lets grab drinks :cheers:

[icem237]

Umm I have tried other OS's and not go on changing what I stated in the original post.....

Anyone have any ideas?

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk

[2007 5.9]

Today just out of curiosity I set the maximum timing after TDC for the main event, minimum timing - pilot to main, and the minimum timing - main to post to 0. Theoretically it should cut my duration in half. I expected it not to run. But in reality it ran perfectly , duration was the same. no change at all.

Can anyone explain why it would make zero difference????

Where is your "cut my duration in half theory originate"???

If your timing window is large enough to support the uS your calling for....then no cut back to be had.

~Les

[icem237]

More to the fact that there was no change in operation at all. That's why I'm asking. More a newb question.

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk

[AdamRRT]

I see what you're saying. Removing those effectively gave you 1/2 the calculated duration. Which should start where the timing is set at that part of the powerband. But operation didn't change.

I see no debate. Not sure what some of the oddly pre-menstrual attitudes are, but it's just adults having a DISCUSSION on a DISCUSSION BOARD. If you're so advanced that you don't belong, either share that infinite wisdom to help us ( we aren't competing tuners here by any means), or just don't read it. No reason to show how e-tough you can be when the rest of us want to reach a common goal.

I'd love to hear more from those who see no problems in these issues. Educate us, fellas. Please.

[Dmaxink]

Adam, I'm going to try and give you a hand... but first lets try and understand real quick what is going on.

1.) are we working with a stock O.S. ..Or is this a smarty file that has been put to stock then scripted over?
2.)If this is not a stock O.S. then put this script on a stock O.S. and lets go from there.
3.) Considering this is not the smarty file put to stock, what paramter(s) (table number please) are you changing that do not match desired data?

Lets go from here and see if we can get some valuable feedback kicking! :cheers:

[AdamRRT]

Its not even my experience. It's the OP (Icem), and another thread by FUBAR regarding commanded vs read mm3 that make me wonder.

Thanks for helping. I'm really wanting to know what you think because I'm very careful with my tuning and prefer to know what's going on before blind tuning by sweet spotting.

[AdamRRT]

To break it down, the questions are why the Smarty based tune (when scripted over) feels like immense RP despite the PIDs not showing a change in RP or duration compared to the tune the script came from. I've felt trucks running crazy high RP and this feels exactly like that.

Also gives 96mm3 when commanding 30. No reason.

Then as said here the op tried to dramatically alter his duration but saw nothing.

No big deal. It's just that it's practical in the sense that it shows that we aren't able to get what we want from the truck at times. I know after just replacing all my injector bodies, I want to get exactly the pressure I want. Not more and not less. But at that point it's hard to know what's up for sure. That's all.

Thoughts, Kory?
Thanks again bro.

[Dmaxink]

Who knows what smarty is doing is the question to ask here... but the thing to remember is efilive doesnt intend for the user to write tunes over previously modified box tuner... it is made to work off of the stock file. Here is the thing, smarty is its own canned tune tool and whos to say marco kept the same row/axis as what efilive reads out and you script over? We do not know what is going on there, and really efilive doesnt care because it is functioning as it is supposed to when used as it was intended for- reading out and modifying the stock file. At the end of the day guys 3 things make power which are Pulse, Pressure, and timing... if scripted over a smarty file you may be requesting 2300uS@ 130Mpa and say 12* timing, but if smarty has another way of getting these same values and you scripted over this...then you are not going to get the desired value. Creating a Map with data as Main pulse uS, row-mpa and column-rpm, you would see the request for pulse happen much eariler (down low) than is desired in the tune if you in fact scripted over a smarty file...with this map if you applied the same pulse at the same time the logged data showed it coming in into you actual STOCK tune and not the smarty stuff, then you would get the same result...

All in All, the software will work as it is intended if tuning methods are done as intended. Use the actual stock file. If the tune from smarty you scripted over was really snappy, ect, whatever you liked about the tune, simply log it and build a map to show you what pulse, mpa, mm3 ect were actually doing then apply that to your REAL stock file. Ex. smarty tune gave you 2300uS@ 1500rpms, but you were asking for 1800uS, screw it put the 2300uS into your real file down low and see what you get. :cucumber:

EDIT: using my stock file, i get the Pulse i want, the pressure i want, the timing i want..pretty much anything im calling for i get using the STOCK tune.

[comnrailpwr]

well said.

[AdamRRT]

Thanks man. That's pretty much exactly what I was telling those who asked. There's different values we aren't seeing. Glad to hear that others agree.

I'm not familiar with custom maps. Care to share a short howto on that for me? I thought that we already have tables to give those values, do that's why I wanted to know what it is that the Smarty tune is doing. I knew it was doing things we weren't seeing. Pressure was WOW feeling. You know how big pressure feels down low haha.

Care to tell us a kittle or point me in the right direction to read tonight? Thanks man. Much appreciated. Glad to hear I was on the right track.

[icemanjc1]

My stock OS wouldn't work worth a crap, but as soon as switched to the *****409 OS, no issue.


Wish we had access to this said OS Rich...

[Dmaxink]

:cucumber:

[icemanjc1]

:cheers: Thank you Kory.

[skneeland]

:cucumber:
Attached Files

File Type: ctd merry christmas 2409 auto os.ctd‎ (1.02 MB, 8 views)

so is the "Holy Grail" OS that we all pretty much want to have? with all the throttle hang & other issues resolved?

[Dmaxink]

I have not had any issues with any so far... but i know some others have... We did have some issues with OS that had been polluted with bullydog files...but not sure if this is still the case..

[skneeland]

I installed that 2409 OS with a direct copy of all my settings from the box tuner base tune and all i can say is my truck went from hero to zero in the 8 minutes it took for the reflash....

First off I can say that respanning the box tuners throttle table (F0505) did nothing to the actual fueling, but did affect the transmission shifting

the same settings that would hit max fuel of 165mm3, would now not go over 93mm3 after copying into the new OS

[Dmaxink]

Sounds like you need to further look over your tune... x2 on F0505 calling for more fuel, better say it is a limiter than a multiplier...my vote is you have not fully ridden the limiters.

All my flashes on the many trucks i have tuned so far have been under 5 mins..are you sure you do not have anything on to slow it down..and also running the latest software?

[comnrailpwr]

I installed that 2409 OS with a direct copy of all my settings from the box tuner base tune and all i can say is my truck went from hero to zero in the 8 minutes it took for the reflash....

First off I can say that respanning the box tuners throttle table (F0505) did nothing to the actual fueling, but did affect the transmission shifting

the same settings that would hit max fuel of 165mm3, would now not go over 93mm3 after copying into the new OS

Your truck is an auto isn't it?

Jake

[2007 5.9]

I installed that 2409 OS with a direct copy of all my settings from the box tuner base tune and all i can say is my truck went from hero to zero in the 8 minutes it took for the reflash....

First off I can say that respanning the box tuners throttle table (F0505) did nothing to the actual fueling, but did affect the transmission shifting

the same settings that would hit max fuel of 165mm3, would now not go over 93mm3 after copying into the new OS

Why are people so persistent with trying to copy a box tuner???

I thought EFI was designed to make a BETTER tune...not copy someone else's work and modify it.

Get yourself a stock fresh tune for your OS....and LEARN how to tune your truck from scratch!!!

That's what EFI is for!!!

(Rant off)

~Les

[comnrailpwr]

Agreed 100%.

Jake

[Dmaxink]

Guys, please do not copy your box tunes and then ask for help on them...We dealt with it on the early stages of development, but i think myself and some of the others have replied to these posts from a professional and respectful standpoint....but its now time to put on the big boy shorts and start from scratch...There arent any loopholes anymore to excuse why one would need to base a file off of a box tuner. The information for what tables mean, how the fueling process works, timing, ect is out there. Much on this forum, dieselplace, and duramaxdiesels and numerous other ones. Understand, we are not trying to be total arseholes here, but it is time to go to the next step fellas. I always recommend searching for your answer via search engines on the previously named sites, this one, or google before you ask a question. We are all here to help, but first you need to show effort in helping yourself.

I might as well state it now as well, IF YOU GET CAUGHT CLAIMING ANOTHER TUNERS TUNE AS YOUR OWN, YOU WILL BE SLAMMED BY MANY MANY ON HERE AND WILL LIKELY BE HELPLESS ON ANY FORUM!!!

Thanks guys, now lets all grab drinks and play duck duck grey goose:cucumber::cheers:

[DoghouseDiesel]

Les / Kory.....

:cheers:

[ScarabEpic22]

Haha duck duck grey goose, epic quote for today. :D

[chizwizdiz]

Sounds like you need to further look over your tune... x2 on F0505 calling for more fuel, better say it is a limiter than a multiplier...my vote is you have not fully ridden the limiters.

All my flashes on the many trucks i have tuned so far have been under 5 mins..are you sure you do not have anything on to slow it down..and also running the latest software?

Off topic-ish, but to flash my truck takes 7 min and 30-ish seconds every time.

[2007 5.9]

Off topic-ish, but to flash my truck takes 7 min and 30-ish seconds every time.

Every truck is different....mine forst thing in the morning takes 5:50...after running for a bit takes 5:30. Back to back flashes takes 4:40

Pulling truck takes 4:00 flat every time...

~Les

[skneeland]

Guys, please do not copy your box tunes and then ask for help on them...We dealt with it on the early stages of development, but i think myself and some of the others have replied to these posts from a professional and respectful standpoint....but its now time to put on the big boy shorts and start from scratch...There arent any loopholes anymore to excuse why one would need to base a file off of a box tuner. The information for what tables mean, how the fueling process works, timing, ect is out there. Much on this forum, dieselplace, and duramaxdiesels and numerous other ones. Understand, we are not trying to be total arseholes here, but it is time to go to the next step fellas. I always recommend searching for your answer via search engines on the previously named sites, this one, or google before you ask a question. We are all here to help, but first you need to show effort in helping yourself.

I might as well state it now as well, IF YOU GET CAUGHT CLAIMING ANOTHER TUNERS TUNE AS YOUR OWN, YOU WILL BE SLAMMED BY MANY MANY ON HERE AND WILL LIKELY BE HELPLESS ON ANY FORUM!!!
Thanks guys, now lets all grab drinks and play duck duck grey goose:cucumber::cheers:

well for starters im not asking for your help. im simply conveying the information to show that there still are several tables & options that we dont have access to with EFI live that some of the box tuners are using.

Comparing apples to apples, a tune I built from scratch on a box tuner base with all the transmission protect settings off has 10X the throttle response and 10X the WOW factor (i dont have dyno access) than the exact same values put into a "stock" base tune

If any of this hurts your "feeling" close your eyes, or go play somewhere else. Im relaying this information to help find out what other pieces of the puzzle are missing

[comnrailpwr]

Here we go again. Cant u CF die hards just keep your sh!t over there. Thats the whole point of that forum, not this one. We have known there are more tables since day one. And in 3-4 years we will still know there is more to be found so no need to remind us. Box tuners have had years of r&d, not 3 months. Search & Read, its not that hard.. if u cannot handle that then keep to yourself or leave.

Jake

[FUBAR]

I'm sorry, but I can't help myself. I'm beggining to think this is a prank. This topic has already been discussed. Have you not read my "mm3 Variation" thread? All the info you need is right there. If you cannot interpret the information already answering you question in that thread, or any of the other threads that this subject has ruined, you are better off leaving it up to one of pro's or...I hate to say it, but keep your box tune then. If you can come up with any better reasoning then by all means, contribute. If not, then don't.

-Andrew

[Dmaxink]

No pieces to the puzzle are missing..let me help out, we can out Tune anything that Smarty has, match it, or make it suck worse...I'm assuming you fell into that last catagory...I'm sorry your lack of tuning experience allows you to build a tune as good as your Smarty. May I suggest you purchase a tune from a credited tuner?

[Dmaxink]

Ill also add this....we had more limiters in beta than wad released public... those tables were not even functional. I don't need any more tables than what is released to outpull a Smarty stacked with anything of your choice. I can create that "wow" factor and more with what is released. Please do some searching on how the fueling process works so you can make your tune do as you wish without cheating and using the shitty box tuner. Not trying to come off as rude..but as I stated before...throttle response ect is available as we speak with proper tuning.

[DoghouseDiesel]

Someone has released the inner Kory.....

:rockon:

[comnrailpwr]

haha

[Dmaxink]

Came out a little harsh... check out FUBAR's "mm3 variation" thread for further explanation. This should help you understand a little better...

[DoghouseDiesel]

Came out a little harsh... check out FUBAR's "mm3 variation" thread for further explanation. This should help you understand a little better...

You ain't gotta explain it to me brother.....

I have dyno sheets, time slips and fuel receipts to back up what does what.

I've run Smarty Revo, TNT, TNT/R, SSR and now EFILive

With Revo and 90 hp sticks with the first set of twins the truck did 626.

With TNT and 160's with the first set of twins it did 742.

With TNT/R and 160's with the new twins it did 771. On fuel is did the same with SSR but the power band was carried out approx 500 RPM's further than TNT/R. On the bottle, the truck did 800 on the nose.....out of fuel....nothing left. It took an average of 24 - 26 pulls to tune the truck with Smarty.

With EFILive, the same 160 HP sticks, the same twins, the same dyno, the same load, still me operating it, the truck did 817 on fuel with PLENTY to spare to spray it and only took 10 pulls to get it there being able to compare the logs to the dyno graphs and make changes accordingly. I didn't get a chance to spray it during that session, didn't realize the bottle was near empty and when I purged it the pressure dropped right off.

Fuel to fuel SSR vs my EFI tune I did 771 with SSR and 817 with EFILive....that's with my little azz 37 LPH (160 hp) nozzles. That's 46 HP for those that are mathemathically challenged.

I've ran each of them, tuned with each of them, there's really not much of a comparison if you know what you're doing.

I have every dyno graph, from every dyno run from the first time I put this truck on the dyno.....I can compare this any way you'd like.

Now, along with those power gains, my hand calculated, everyday driving mileage has increased from 16.8 to 19.2 MPG in mixed driving. That's a 2.4 MPG increase.

Fresh off the dyno session, on street tires, the truck MATCHED the best ever run it ever did with SSR and drag radials.....that was BEFORE the boost limiter tables were found.

Obviously, results may vary, and obviously they do .......

[Dmaxink]

Yeah buddy no comparison whatsoever..hmm..lets see what Marco develops once he buys Efilive...lololol sorry had to say it

[schwoch1]

Yeah buddy no comparison whatsoever..hmm..lets see what Marco develops once he buys Efilive...lololol sorry had to say it

I was thinking the same thing!!! Marco could be 'refineing' his tunes as we speak!!!

I only wish I could do what you common rail guys are doing as far as power and tuning is concerned with my VP44 powered 24 valve motor!!! Someday when my '99 Ram dies, I can replace it with a common rail truck!!!

MIke