Reducing injector wear

[AdamRRT]

I'd like to hear some thoughts on this. It ties into why we tune certain characteristics into or out of our tunes.

A few times I've heard guys say that a single event tune will save injector wear by only firing once. I am not so sure. I think it'll help if it nets a lower overall total flow of fuel, causing less erosion.

Anybody got any info showing that it's the actual act of the injector movement that causes failures rather than the flow at pressure as we already know as fact?

[skneeland]

A few times I've heard guys say that a single event tune will save injector wear by only firing once. I am not so sure. I think it'll help if it nets a lower overall total flow of fuel, causing less erosion. ?

I work with high pressure, high volume, high velocity flow plumbing & valves everyday. Valves wear out from opening and closing them. The higher the pressure differential, the more you open & close them under pressure & the longer it takes for pressure to equalize around the valve, the faster they wear out. Valves in the open position very rarely fail.

If you view the injector as a valve, this is one way to look at it.

[THEFERMANATOR]

I work with high pressure, high volume, high velocity flow plumbing & valves everyday. Valves wear out from opening and closing them. The higher the pressure differential, the more you open & close them under pressure & the longer it takes for pressure to equalize around the valve, the faster they wear out. Valves in the open position very rarely fail.

If you view the injector as a valve, this is one way to look at it.

Also keep in mind that a common rail injector doesn't work like a standard valve does. They open to spray by opening a bypass which causes a pressure differential that opens the valve. They are actually a dual action design.

[AdamRRT]

Yeah I'm not aware of the valve issue applying in our case. Unless someone has some info that brings that valve comparison into application.

[tinman]

True , injector will open-close less. But the peak cylinder pressure will be higher. Will that cause more wear/higher duty cycle of the injectors? I don't know. Will it cause more wear of other engine components. I don't know, but it should be considered. Getting rid of the junk - 3rd injection event - is a good idea, but I think the pilot has a lot of good features and I plan on keeping mine (except maybe at idle just for some fun).

[AdamRRT]

I can't see how you'd consider higher duty cycle when opening for a shorter duration overall per revolution. That means lower duty cycle. Unless I'm missing something. If so let me know.

I think we will have reduced wear potential with EFILIVE. We can reduce our rail pressure to the min necessary pressure. Or ramp up early yet leave a safe ceiling like say make it so you're commanding 21,000 psi across the board, but limit it to that. Could in theory be tons of fun yet potentially not wear injectors as quickly. Just something I've always thought sounds like fun... On someone else's truck for 100k mikes first of course. Haha.

[Dmaxink]

I have a customer run 300k plus miles and so many engine hours the clock reset itself on stock injectors on a lbz Dmax that runs 12.60s...no this isn't typical as we would see a piston go by that time... but I have seen countless guys go 200k miles with a 3000+ uS... Dodge is a new ball game and now that they have good Tuning capabilities who knows how far they would go? My concern on injector wear would be high pressure in a smoking hot chamber... yet again... who knows how far they will go.

[AdamRRT]

My concern on injector wear would be high pressure in a smoking hot chamber... yet again... who knows how far they will go.So I can understand more... What part of it concerns u? Do you mean regarding predetonation?

[Dmaxink]

Reread my post..what I meant was before there would be an injector issue ( assuming fuel quality is good)...I wouldnt really be too worried about injector issues as I could see the truck dropping a piston or rod before injector issues would persist from tuning ect..high pressure high egts is the root of all evil, yet power :-) ...its that beautiful balancing act. Too much pressure without adequate relief would wear an injector more than anything in my book.

[Dmaxink]

I would expect a piston to flop before an injector issue due.

[AdamRRT]

Ahh that makes sense.

So is the consensus on injector wear that it is due to high pressure flow, and not actuation?

[Dmaxink]

That would be my logical assumption..but I'm sure one could potentially shoot it down.

[AdamRRT]

Haha if someone can shoot it down, I'd love to see it. I'm always willing to learn.

[skneeland]

Yeah I'm not aware of the valve issue applying in our case. Unless someone has some info that brings that valve comparison into application.

regardless, it is still a valve even though it may not conform to your traditional ideas of what constitutes a valve.

back to your original question, you may want to first look at better filtration. the stock 7micron filter system can easily be upgraded to a 2micron spin-on style (Bosch themselves recommend a minimum 5micron filter for this application)

after that its also a good idea to modify the poorly designed vents on the top of the fuel tank (there is one at each end) that let in water when you drive & at the carwash...

[Dmaxink]

^^^Good advice

[AdamRRT]

I agree and totally appreciate the advice. I'm talking about using programming (I'm posting on EFI Live forum in a TUNING section). I know some of you guys are just super helpful and toss out all the info you can to help (much appreciated, skneeland), so let me be more specific:
Assume perfect filtration. I'm asking that we address injector wear due to FUEL (not contaminated fuel) and actuation, and any other injector wear issue as it applies to a tuning section. Heck assume perfect fuel if you have to. I'm in a tuning section so I'd like to address how can we reduce it via tuning. I didn't think I'd have to clarify since that's why the board is in sections and subforums. That's MY MISTAKE for not being more specific. So I very much apologize for leaving it too open and not clarifying. I'm sorry. Let's try to talk about it from a tuning standpoint.

Also, skneeland: can you explain how the valve concept applies to our injectors please? I understand the fact that valves would wear while opening and closing, as if nothing else it's exposed to higher pressure temporarily during the open/close transition. But I'm intrigued. You obviously know WAY more about valves than most of us, so I'm all ears. It's the first time I've heard this concept applied to worn injector internals. And since nobody has yet found a true permanant solution to injector wear, I wonder if this is a key issue that the community hasn't addressed.

[skneeland]

... skneeland: can you explain how the valve concept applies to our injectors please? I understand the fact that valves would wear while opening and closing, as if nothing else it's exposed to higher pressure temporarily during the open/close transition. But I'm intrigued. You obviously know WAY more about valves than most of us, so I'm all ears. It's the first time I've heard this concept applied to worn injector internals. And since nobody has yet found a true permanant solution to injector wear, I wonder if this is a key issue that the community hasn't addressed.

personally, ive never had them fail due to this type of wear(all my injector failures have been electronic) i was simply hypothesizing on long term effects. A person could easily consider with all things being equal that if you eliminate/minimize pre & post injection events, you are removing 2/3 of the events, that you may extend the life of them by a reasonable amount. This is probably more likely on daily driver/non performance situation, pushing the envelope in the name of performance probably still negates any longetivity gains. Furthermore, i suspect a majority of the mechanical failures can be attributed to either, poor filtration and/or combined with excessive high pressure & pressure spikes

[2007 5.9]

99% of injector failures are from contamination. 1% is from the electrical solenoid failure.

Failure comes from erosion of the ball/socket in the HP side. Rust/debris etc slam aginst the ball and bash it up.

I have never heard of a failure from time...mainly from poor filtration.

[AdamRRT]

The pressure of the fuel itself causes erosion. Fluid erosion.

[2007 5.9]

The pressure of the fuel itself causes erosion. Fluid erosion.

Agreed. Contamination expedites the process.

[AdamRRT]

Yeah. Just kind of sounded like you were saying it's okay to run any pressure you want as long as you have a 2um filter setup. And we KNOW that's nowhere near true. Just trying to get clarification, as you've probably seen way more failures than I have, although I DO make it a point to pay a lot of attention to them since my failures.

Anybody wanna go back to the topic and address it from a tuning standpoint? Haha.

[2007 5.9]

Anybody wanna go back to the topic and address it from a tuning standpoint? Haha.

What kind of answer are you liking for???

I do not remove events from a longevity standpoint...I remove/add them based on a performance standpoint.

[AH64ID]

I can't help but think contaminates and pressure are the biggest killers. I also think Dodge/Cummins figured this out if you look at the rail psi map on a 5.9 vs a 6.7, and the OEM filtration went from 7 to 5 um.

I am sure that part of the 6.7 rail psi map is emissions based, but I don't think it all is. The 6.7 runs much much lower pressures under normal driving.

[AdamRRT]

Yep. Pressure is surely the most common issue. That's undoubted.

That's why it gets so old to see responses about filtration that totally ignore the issue of pressure. Especially in performance sections of message boards where you know the newbies are wanting to run high pressure despite the risks. Im all about filters, but they get talked up as if they're so great they can provide peace in the Middle East. One of my degrees being psych, I look at how people read things (one reason I leave my posts factual and open, allowing me to learn a lot about a person's attitudes by how they interpret & respond to my posts). And IMHO if a member asks about injectors in a performance parts section, and someone responds with filtration as the only answer, I feel that it appears to that person that if they run a 2um filter they'll be ok cranking up pressure as often as they want. A new guy wanting to hear that increasing pressure is ok would take that and run with it.

[DoghouseDiesel]

Water is what kills the injectors before anything else.

THAT is the number one killer of injectors.

Introduce water into a high pressure system like a CR and you've just created a water jet. Water is the single biggest and fastest killer of these systems than any other contaminent or performance mod we do.

Keep out the water, keep the pressures reasonable and you won't have issues with injectors.

Turn the pressures up over 26K and spike the system over 28K and you're asking for problems. Introduce water into the high pressure system....hate it for ya.

[comnrailpwr]

100% agree with ya Rich. I run 2 aftermarket fuel water separators for just this purpose. Pressure and water is a bad idea.

Jake

[AH64ID]

I agree, which is why I was so disgusted with the f/w seps that were found on the AD and FASS systems 2 years ago. AD still isn't as good as stock.

Filtration is huge!

[Dmaxink]

We ran 12.62 on a stock lly (lift pump,tune, tranny) in stock fuel system..he went with the cat filtration system along with stock setup and the truck still ran 12.62 so guys dont think it'll slow ya down! My .02

[AdamRRT]

Yep. Water is in the category of contaminant that we have mentioned. Good reminder in case people don't know that.

So Rich, about the tuning part. Do YOU believe that if total overall amount of fuel injected per combustion cycle remains constant, that a single event would reduce wear compared to multiple events?

I'm asking because I've seen it mentioned in a few threads across the net, yet to me I can't imagine it mattering.

[AdamRRT]

Also do you really see water proven as being in the fuel more often than people just being a tard running high pressure all the time?

I know it'll kill them quickly. Just can't imagine it being the most common.

[AH64ID]

I know a lot of people pull their systems apart and see rust!

I think that a lot of people blame injector failures on mods/power/pressure, but lack of filtration is major. Consider how poor the f/w sep on FASS/AD was for years, worse than stock!

[Dmaxink]

#1 that runs through injector issues around here is water... 9 times out of 10 around here.

[comnrailpwr]

Adam In my experience with high pressure liquids & steam (not as high as are fuel systems, although same principals apply across the board) erosion takes place when there is a restriction (nozzle) causing a pressure difference. Pressure is a measurement of restriction. With that said IMHO I think reducing the amount an injector opens causing a differential in pressure would greatly reduce erosion. Entrapped air is also an eroding force (cavitation). Especially at high pressure bursts. As with anything else automotive or flow of anything in general. Pressure is the what society tries to reduce while improving flow. Parts fail due to pressure/flow, contamination and action. Pressure without flow or action does no harm considering materials to be pressurized can handle the load. Without flow then no contamination can erode parts. If flow is increased, pressure is decreased, contamination is filtered out and action is reduced parts will last while power will be smoothed and better. My $.02

Jake

[comnrailpwr]

Also do you really see water proven as being in the fuel more often than people just being a tard running high pressure all the time?

I know it'll kill them quickly. Just can't imagine it being the most common.

I have heard from many injection shops that water is their biggest problem. I get about a teaspoon out of both my separators combined in one pull so I believe them. I drain them every run.

Jake

[2007 5.9]

Adam,

Have you thought about writing to a BOSCH Engineer and ask them their feelings on the matter??

I have a hard time believing that if pressure was their priority concern they why run their injectors on the European diesel vehicles at higher pressures than we see.

Without an answer from BOSCH themselves...all we are doing is speculating.

And we all know speculation can/does lead to false or misguided claims on what ones knowledge might/might not be.

I do know that BOSCH specs 2um for their CR systems and it's in fact Cummins/Chrysler that offer only a 7um in factory applications.

Having such tight tolerances with regards to filtration leads me to believe that there is more of a concern on clean fuel as opposed to injection amounts/pressure and event totals

[AdamRRT]

True, Les. But it's just a discussion board. None of us have to participate in the thread if we don't like it. I personally enjoy the discussion and the degree of speculation with it. I'd certainly hope that anybody involved accepts it as personal experience/opinions. Of course we as intelligent beings have the responsibility of attempting to be as accurate as possible when interpreting and conveying our experience and opinions. I'm okay with it cause it's all just in fun.

Of course Bosch would give AN answer. I don't know that I'd trust them on it. I very much dislike relying upon the manufacturer of a part to educate me, since there is an inherent and unavoidable high degree of bias. It's just that Bosch is the ones who made these injectors that we all see failing so often, and refuses to support them. They are the ones that failed to recommend better than 10um until after the vehicles were produced, if I understand correctly. I think that the QC requirements just aren't up to snuff as they could be. It seems to me that we have more failures with our injectors than other diesels. But it could just be that I am more in tune to the Dodge Cummins CR community.

[JoshH]

You're going to have a hard time proving anything, so WTF does it matter what anyone says. Without setting up a lab experiment with controlled conditions, we will probably never know. Your best bet is to talk to some CR injector shops and/or Bosch and see if they will provide any information. My suggestion is to tune your truck for maximum efficiency, and then if/when you have to replace your injectors, you'll have some extra cash to pay for them.

[AdamRRT]

It doesn't matter. If it did, I'd ask somewhere serious instead of a discussion board. Why are you bothered by it?

[JoshH]

I'm not bothered by it. I just think it's a silly discussion. Why are you bothered by my response?

[AdamRRT]

Not bothered at all. Amazed that you'd be disturbed enough to throw in profanity and act as if the discussion shouldn't exist. It wasn't meant to solve world peace. It is a casual discussion. If it were important, I would HOPE someone wouldn't be sitting here discussing it online. No offense meant toward you man. Maybe I took you the wrong way.

[dansdieselp]

Looking at the Duramax side the LBZ and LMM run four injection events and see as much as 180mpa rail pressure yet you don't see injectors going out very often with them. Heck I know of a few that have over 300k on the originals and one over 900k that's never been touched. Dirt, water and air is what kills your fuel system. Some also claim its a lack of lubricity in the ULSD fuel. Regardless I don't think pressure is the cause for injectors failing.

[comnrailpwr]

Cracked bodies are directly related to pressure. I agree that ball seat erosion is fuel contamination and flow

Jake

[JoshH]

Not bothered at all. Amazed that you'd be disturbed enough to throw in profanity and act as if the discussion shouldn't exist. It wasn't meant to solve world peace. It is a casual discussion. If it were important, I would HOPE someone wouldn't be sitting here discussing it online. No offense meant toward you man. Maybe I took you the wrong way.I'm not disturbed at all, and I don't see where I used any profanity, unless you're considering WTF profanity. I'm simply using it as a figure of speech. You'd know if I was using profanity. The point I'm making is, you act like you really want to solve a problem, but then just a couple of posts ago, you say it doesn't matter. As if to say, you don't really care to actually solve a problem. Why waste everyone's time if you aren't actually trying to solve a problem? I guess I just don't understand the reason to come on and speculate with no real desire to figure anything out. Generally when someone discusses a topic, they have some end result they're after; yet you act totally offended when it is suggested you ask someone who really knows. It makes me wonder what you're really after.

[AdamRRT]

Simple. I want discussion of experience. I'm not wasting your time. I didn't force anybody to post in this thread, although I appreciate the credit for being so powerful. Thank you. I have a desire to gather info from people's experienced over time in order to form my own opinions. Is that serious or a big deal to me? Nope.

It's odd all those claiming that it's contamination but not pressure can't seem to say it so let me ask:

Those who keep blaming contamination - your posts indicate that you feel that if one runs the 2um CAT/Donaldson style filter and best water separator, they're not going to experience accelerated internal injector wear if they run pressure on "kill" at all times. Say 160MPa across the table. Is this correct? If not, then why back down from earlier posts?

[DoghouseDiesel]

I think you're going to find that you're soon going to be talking to yourself, Adam, as, yet again, here you are in a pissing contest with everyone.

You can try and quantify and qualify yourself however you'd like, but at this point I'll let you know this.....

You will receive NO assistance, guidance or knowledge from me. I am making that publicly known.

Your actions and attitude are quite plainly, out of line, whether it be in person or on line. You ask a question, then get pissy with the answers.

So with that, I hope someone else decides to entertain you, as I will no longer even concern myself with some of your questions.

You're on your own, bud.

[JoshH]

Simple. I want discussion of experience. I'm not wasting your time. I didn't force anybody to post in this thread, although I appreciate the credit for being so powerful. Thank you. I have a desire to gather info from people's experienced over time in order to form my own opinions. Is that serious or a big deal to me? Nope.The experience of what, 6 months worth of tuning at the most? That will hardly provide any kind of concrete evidence. Like I said earlier, if you really want actual info, talk to an experienced injector shop or Bosch. They will be able to give you the answers you want. Maybe you can ask again in a few years when people have actually had some time with EFILive and will perhaps be able to give some info on how tuning affects injector life. My personal opinion is that most people's main concern isn't going to be making their injectors last longer. Most of the Cummins trucks I change injectors on because of an actual injector problem have 200k or more miles on them. If you can drive that long without having to do that repair, I don't consider it a major concern. I think the focus on most tuners is going to be performance, driveablity, and efficiency. Good power, good manners, and good fuel economy are what makes people happy.

[AdamRRT]

I think you're going to find that you're soon going to be talking to yourself, Adam, as, yet again, here you are in a pissing contest with everyone.Pissing contest? I see no such thing. I see a couple of people who had difficulty grasping the point to the conversation. If you think that's a pissing contest, you have a serious attitude issue.


You can try and quantify and qualify yourself however you'd like, but at this point I'll let you know this.....

You will receive NO assistance, guidance or knowledge from me. I am making that publicly known.That's good. I didn't want to have to put you on IGNORE on yet another board because of your prickish attitude.



Your actions and attitude are quite plainly, out of line, whether it be in person or on line. You ask a question, then get pissy with the answers.And here's the prickish attitude. where'd I get pissy? I asked questions, hoping some people would have the ability to have a simple conversation. but somehow sticking to the topic of the forum and just having a lighthearted discussion bothers some people. I have no use for that type of person. Life's too short to think our own opinion is so important that you're being bothered by posting in a thread that you weren't asked to join. Note that other than the attitude comment, i'm not pointing a finger at YOU. I'm leaving that up to you to decide if you feel that you fit into that category.



So with that, I hope someone else decides to entertain you, as I will no longer even concern myself with some of your questions.

You're on your own, bud.Later. Please don't respond, since you keep promising to not comment on my threads. You don't like anything I say, and I don't care. I'll post in your threads anyway, and life will go on. See ya man. xoxo

[JoshH]

Wow dude. You're a real winner...

[AdamRRT]

The experience of what, 6 months worth of tuning at the most? That will hardly provide any kind of concrete evidence.Sure 6 months, although we know that we've been changing rail pressure for well over 6 months on these trucks. And no, it won't provide concrete evidence. That's not an expectation. So that's not a problem. That's what I'm saying. If I'm understanding correctly, your view of my goals of this thread are different from my intent. I prefer to simply hear everyone's real-world experience, and sift the commonalities from that experience. I have no concerns with the time frame. It doesn't have to be EFI Live specific. Just tuning in the past, that we can now apply to EFI Live. So we reach an understanding: there's no expectation of concrete, 100% scientific proof. I can't believe I even have to clarify this since it's so blatantly obvious that it's not even possible. Just gathering available info over time. It's how we form our own opinions rather than being force fed someone else's agenda-laden garbage information. I hope that's clearer, as I really have zero intentions of agitating anybody. It's just discussion. Man, I work a stressful job where I literally get to play a role in life and death daily. I watch people die who shouldn't, and people die who should. I see families in their hardest times they'll ever face, and I'm blessed to play a role in that. I have no desire to be all super-serious in my spare time conversations. I think of a message board as a bunch of guys sitting around hanging out having a conversation. Because it is. It's not a specific scientific reference database. It's not possible by its very nature.



Like I said earlier, if you really want actual info, talk to an experienced injector shop or Bosch. They will be able to give you the answers you want.And as I said, I'd be foolish to consider Bosch to be a valid source of info when they're the ones that made the crappy injectors in the first place, and have done everything they can to avoid a recall. I have very little desire to talk to a shop about it. They have a high inherent bias. That's input that would be accepted, but given much lesser credibility than the input of 10 guys who carefully monitored their trucks and had failures. Once again, my take on it. Since I'm somehow being questioned rather than sticking to the topic or just not posting at all.



Maybe you can ask again in a few years when people have actually had some time with EFILive and will perhaps be able to give some info on how tuning affects injector life.Oh I will. I'll continually gather the info. That should go without saying. I'm constantly doing this with every single aspect of life.



My personal opinion is that most people's main concern isn't going to be making their injectors last longer. Most of the Cummins trucks I change injectors on because of an actual injector problem have 200k or more miles on them. If you can drive that long without having to do that repair, I don't consider it a major concern. I think the focus on most tuners is going to be performance, driveablity, and efficiency. Good power, good manners, and good fuel economy are what makes people happy.I agree. that does apply to most. But I see a lot of people with problems well under 200k. I've seen many many people with issues such as I had, replacing 3+ injectors at just 65k miles. I only owned it for the last 15k of that, but I'm interested to hear it since it had either the stock filtration for a few thousand miles(which Bosch originally suggested), or the improved Baldwin in the stock canister for the remainder. And has NEVER had enough water from the separator to even tell that a drop came out. Yes I knew the previous owner. And why would a $1500-3000 repair on a hard, non-wearable part be considered acceptable from a truck with a claimed intended lifespan of 400k miles? Keep in mind it's not a matter of affording it. It's a matter of not wasting money. The middle or upper-middle class people who I know (which is from most of the comments about 85-90% of the guys I've seen on the Cummins boards) should never be happy to spend money that shouldn't be spent, just because they can afford it for the day. That's for poor people who think that if they can make the payment for items (whether a single payment or financed), it must be affordable. It's just not acceptable. I see no "injector replacement" in any maintenance schedule from Dodge or Cummins.

Thanks for opening up to the point man. I really have no desire to argue. Just to discuss. Otherwise we wouldn't be on a DISCUSSION BOARD. Haha. Have a good evening.

[AdamRRT]

Wow dude. You're a real winner...What do you want me to say? The guy keeps misunderstanding my posts and making these raging retard posts as if I'm gonna say, "Oh no mr Rich you somehow suddenly are relevant because you're a beta tester please stay on my threads." Man the guy has been going off on me for no reason. I have no respect for that.

Look, here's the deal. A few weeks ago, a few guys posted questions. Nobody answered. I referred to their situations in a post. Somehow Rich couldn't get his mind around the fact that it was a reference, and starts going off on me as if I had done what they did. So for a week or so he makes prickish comments and keeps referring to the post and what I did... when I HADN'T DONE IT IN THE FIRST PLACE! I tried to explain it because I know that some people are slow and get confused sometimes. Instead of saying, "Oh I see. I was wrong. I'm sorry.", he just kept popping off at the mouth. So if someone dislikes me based upon their own misunderstanding and feels the need to run their mouth like a good little keyboard warrior, I'm not going to just sit back and not fire back.

I notice you had NOTHING to say to him about his crappy attitude toward me in that post. Why do you comment on one side and not theother, when OBVIOUSLY I wasn't being rude to him first? Yes, I honestly want an answer. Is it due to your earlier misunderstanding of the point of the thread? Or your personal relationship with him, whatever that may be (friend, internet acquaintance, heck spouse, I don't know what it is)? Why would you comment like that toward the guy who got attacked? It's very interesting.

You misunderstand the thread and derail it. Then you comment in a negative way toward a guy who got attacked without provocation. Yes, I said NOTHING to Rich to provoke that. And I'm "a winner"? Come on man. On what planet is that even remotely sensible or humanly decent? There's no reason for that. It's just strange. Wouldn't you agree?

[02dodge]

Why don't you post this over on comp d, cause your post really does not have much to do the tuning of these trucks. I think you may get better answers over there.

[AdamRRT]

That site is good, but they all act like rude little 12yr olds whose parents failed at child rearing.

How does me asking about tuning not apply to tuning?

Holy crap man this thread just seems to have become a transient demonstration of poor reading comprehension.

[JoshH]

That site is good, but they all act like rude little 12yr olds whose parents failed at child rearing.

How does me asking about tuning not apply to tuning?

Holy crap man this thread just seems to have become a transient demonstration of poor reading comprehension.Yes, that's the way to get answers. Insult everyone who is reading the thread.

[AdamRRT]

Everyone? Really? That's mature. Don't answer the decent realistic questions that would end the drama. Stir the pot. Makes sense.

FYI: That in no way applies to everyone. Is English not your first language? Just answer. Where did I refer to everyone?

[AdamRRT]

Looking at the Duramax side the LBZ and LMM run four injection events and see as much as 180mpa rail pressure yet you don't see injectors going out very often with them. Heck I know of a few that have over 300k on the originals and one over 900k that's never been touched. Dirt, water and air is what kills your fuel system. Some also claim its a lack of lubricity in the ULSD fuel. Regardless I don't think pressure is the cause for injectors failing.

What's the specs on the commonly ran Dmax filtration?
Good info btw.

[ScarabEpic22]

Adam, Ive kept mum but honestly it seems like you're asking questions that either people dont care the answer to or dont know the answer to. Continually pushing for an answer only works when someone has some insight, but it seems everyone else doesnt currently.

I see the benefit to reducing injector wear as they're expensive, but it seems from what Ive seen (and I dont know a ton about diesels) is that injectors need to have proper filtration and that pressure related failure is secondary to filtration. There must be an actual limit to where an increase in pressure is beneficial and where it become detrimental, but Im not sure anyone can figure this out without a lot of controlled scientific experiments.

I guess Im trying to say that continually asking the same question over and over to the same group of people isnt going to generate answers that already havent been posted/said. Good luck with your research, I know how it feels to not know an aspect of tuning and trying to figure it out.

[AdamRRT]

ScarabEpic: thanks for your input. I see that could be where some of the confusion lies. I in no way am trying to get the same people to answer in the same way they already had. Just wanted to clarify for future posters that the previous poster had missed the topic. Total confusion. Ill simplify beyond belief next time i guess. Oh well. Back to work and real life things that actually matter. Have a good one.

[rcr1978]

I didn't relize you guys had that many problems, Dmax LB7's had a pile of them but most of the others were pretty good considering. What years of cummins are the worst or was it just all of the common rail ones?

[2007 5.9]

All CR have substandard filtration from Chrysler. All model years from late '02 through '10 have various spurts of injector failure.

[AdamRRT]

I didn't relize you guys had that many problems, Dmax LB7's had a pile of them but most of the others were pretty good considering. What years of cummins are the worst or was it just all of the common rail ones?I only pay attention to the common rail trucks, so I can't speak for the others. It seems to be all 5.9 common rail trucks from what I can tell. :(
Others will know way more than me on the info though. Obviously.

[AdamRRT]

We keep blaming Chrysler. But the way I understand it, it's the filtration that Bosch instructed them to use when the trucks were manufactured. They just changed their recommendations after the trucks were already on the market, and did nothing to contact people with a fix. Is there info showing otherwise? I hope so, cause I hate the way I understand it, honestly.

[rcr1978]

Sounds like the same thing happend to the duramax's because GM had a free fuel filter change/recall/change bulletin around 04/05 to a lower micron rating.

[2007 5.9]

We keep blaming Chrysler. But the way I understand it, it's the filtration that Bosch instructed them to use when the trucks were manufactured. They just changed their recommendations after the trucks were already on the market, and did nothing to contact people with a fix. Is there info showing otherwise? I hope so, cause I hate the way I understand it, honestly.

BOSCH specs 2um for ALL their CR injection systems. Chrysler fails to equip the vehicles with proper filtration.

Filter companies refuse to mfg drop in replacements that meet spec as well.

[AH64ID]

BOSCH specs 2um for ALL their CR injection systems. Chrysler fails to equip the vehicles with proper filtration.

Filter companies refuse to mfg drop in replacements that meet spec as well.

I recently called Bosch and spoke with them about filtration. They have told me (twice, I also talked to them several years ago) that minimum filtration is 5um, and recommenced is 2um, which based on the most current standard <3um is all you can report.

If you look at all the filters that Cummins puts on their HPCR systems the smaller the engine the better the filtration needs to be. They all use a 5um absolute filter, but the 2um rating varies. On ISB's and ISC's its in the 92-94% at 2um, where as you go up in engine size the 2um rating drops to 85-88%.

After years and countless hours of research I was shocked at what some people were running on their trucks, and thought it was good just because it said Fleetguard on the side of it.

In addition to micron rating people need to look at flow rating, a filter may be 5um absolute but if that number is at 60GPH and your pushing 100+ GPH thru it then your not as efficient. There are very few filters that are rated for flow over 90 GPH and have the ratings needed for our injection system. The CP3 does not have a need for pressure like a VP44, but people treat it as thou it does. Bosch specs -5 to +15 psi, I prefer 2-15 psi for ease of monitoring. If you are in that range WOT you are feeding it enough fuel and you may be able to use a smaller pump and not outflow your filter ratings and have cleaner fuel. If you have a high HP rig and need 150 GPH to keep it in the proper range then really a stand alone pump and several fuel filters in parallel is what you need. Thou to be honest I think the high HP guys get away with under filtering fuel because modded injectors have much larger holes and the debris isn't as hard on them.

I have only found 3 filters for the 03-07 trucks that meet OEM spec (7um) which are OEM, Donaldson P550800, and the Baldwin PF7977, of those the only one to meet Bosch min spec is the Baldwin.

Anyways, off my soap box...

[2007 5.9]

Ok so I was off on my rating...and I do run a AD150 and run a 7977 in my stock canister...have from day one.

[AH64ID]

Ok so I was off on my rating...and I do run a AD150 and run a 7977 in my stock canister...have from day one.

I wasn't trying to pick on your rating, just sharing some of my findings after WAY too much time researching filters.

As for the AD, if you (or anyone else reading) isn't aware the best filters for it are the Baldwin BF1275 (only one to even meet OE f/w sep rates) and Donaldson P551315.

[LaydSierra]

As for the AD, if you (or anyone else reading) isn't aware the best filters for it are the Baldwin BF1275 (only one to even meet OE f/w sep rates) and Donaldson P551315.

thanks for those part numbers, when I installed my AD150 I replaced the factory canister with one of the pass-thru blocks & currently still running the AD filters

[AdamRRT]

Wow I was a real jerk in these old threads. You guys should've had me tarred & feathered. Funny looking back I thought I knew so much, but now I realize that I know very little. I guess 10 years of aging will do that to a man.