joshH timing calc for 5.9 cummins

[Dmaxink]

JoshH 5.9 cummins timing calc

[06redram]

Nice work on the timing excel, time to fine tune this weekend. Thanks Kory, Josh H and the beta Team ( Les and Zack, all the guys of EFI Live) for all your hard keep it cummin ;)

[skneeland]

awesome! thanks for the hard work.

how will the new tables with the timing offset fix affect this?

[06redram]

That's a good question,

[2007 5.9]

Calculator explains that you need to have to make the offset adjustment in order for it to calculate correctly.

If your tables don't reflect the offset..apply the offset then enter info into document...do your calculations then take new timing number and subtract offset back out and paste to your tables

[AdamRRT]

Awesome! thanks for the hard work.
how will the new tables with the timing offset fix affect this?From the spreadsheet, stated in the top:


If you want to calculate your current timing percentages, copy and paste your rail pressure and pulse width tables as instructed above. Then go to table {E2503} Timing, Base Table. If you still have the 20 degree timing offset, you will need to adjust your timing table so it reflects actual injection timing. Right click in the upper left corner, but this time, just select “Copy”. Do NOT “Copy with labels”. Go to cell B120 of this spreadsheet and paste what you just copied. Your percentages will now be displayed starting in cell B142.

[AdamRRT]

Some of the guys have preferred to have the green/yellow/red gradients applied to their spreadsheet. So I made these instructions for them. You'll of course have to unprotect the sheet first.

AdamRRT's guide to add a color gradient to JoshH's "Cummins Timing Calculator" spreadsheet:
(Granted there may be other ways to do this. This is the easiest explained way that I know. Feel free to do things your own way if needed. Just don't delete any formulas!)

We will have to do 1 table at at time in order to apply that gradient only to that table. Otherwise the gradient will use the numbers from all selected tables.

Select the table to which you wish to apply the gradient.
Across the top of Excel, go:
Home > Conditional Formatting > Color Scales

You will then see 8 potential scales. Choose the one you wish to use. I prefer the top row, 2nd from left. This color scale matches the stock color scale on EFI Live.

I then enrich the colors by keeping the same table selected then going:
Home > Conditional Formatting > Manage Rules
Double-click the color bar in this window. You then can select the deeper colors you wish to use instead of Excel's slightly washed out versions. OK. APPLY.

Repeat for each table. Your tables should now match the formatting of EFI Live, so that you can still see any numbers that stand out to you.

Re-protect the sheet, of course.

12144

[Duramax 6.6L]

Thank you very much for this.

[mstordahl]

Since I am new to the whole efi thing, what is this table supposed to do for us? Does it just calculate based on pressure and duration a ideal timing figure?

[THEFERMANATOR]

Since I am new to the whole efi thing, what is this table supposed to do for us? Does it just calculate based on pressure and duration a ideal timing figure?

The timing calculator allows you to correct your timing for added pulsewidth. When you add fuel without changing the timing this makes it so the added fuel is being added AFTER top dead center and if you add enough fuel you will be causing your combustion event to carry on until the exhaust valve is opening basically wasting the added fuel and skyrocketing your EGT's. By correcting your timing tables you can keep it so that X percentage of teh fuel is injected before top dead center to keep the power cycle centered where you need it.

[GMPX]

FYI, Josh has been working with Paul to put this calculator directly in the V7 software, should be very interesting.

[Dmaxink]

That is pretty sweet I must say...could save a few motors :)

[JoshH]

Yeah, Paul sent me some screen shots of the calculator in EFILive. It will be a lot easier than copy and pasting everything.

[06redram]

Some of the guys have preferred to have the green/yellow/red gradients applied to their spreadsheet. So I made these instructions for them. You'll of course have to unprotect the sheet first.

AdamRRT's guide to add a color gradient to JoshH's "Cummins Timing Calculator" spreadsheet:
(Granted there may be other ways to do this. This is the easiest explained way that I know. Feel free to do things your own way if needed. Just don't delete any formulas!)

We will have to do 1 table at at time in order to apply that gradient only to that table. Otherwise the gradient will use the numbers from all selected tables.

Select the table to which you wish to apply the gradient.
Across the top of Excel, go:
Home > Conditional Formatting > Color Scales

You will then see 8 potential scales. Choose the one you wish to use. I prefer the top row, 2nd from left. This color scale matches the stock color scale on EFI Live.

I then enrich the colors by keeping the same table selected then going:
Home > Conditional Formatting > Manage Rules
Double-click the color bar in this window. You then can select the deeper colors you wish to use instead of Excel's slightly washed out versions. OK. APPLY.

Repeat for each table. Your tables should now match the formatting of EFI Live, so that you can still see any numbers that stand out to you.

Re-protect the sheet, of course.

12144

Adam can you post the color install excel link that would be easy for those that are not that savvy with the excel software? Thank bud

[AdamRRT]

I'll gladly post it tonight when I get to my computer.
JoshH: thanks for this man. I've been trying but lack the understanding and especially patience. I'm good with Excel, but not nearly as good as you are. I really appreciate it. Guys kept asking why I want a calculator. I can't see having any desire to hand calc every cell in a timing table each time you make a change. And I have no desire to just guess or estimate either.

Guys who don't know why you'd use this: how else are you changing your timing when you change duration? I'd love to learn another easy way to change timing appropriately. Although I'll stick to calculators for now.

Note: it'd be sweet if in addition to desired percentage, we could choose desired degrees BTDC (or ATDC also) we would like the midpoint of our injection pulse. Just to play around really. I don't know how helpful it is. Just noticed at low RPM/mm3, we can be many hundred % from centerline, but that's only a degree or two due to the small fuel volume. Would that help some or no?

[andrewjamesbond1]

FYI, Josh has been working with Paul to put this calculator directly in the V7 software, should be very interesting.

^^^^ That is AWESOME!!!^^^^

[AdamRRT]

Adam can you post the color install excel link that would be easy for those that are not that savvy with the excel software? Thank bud

If Josh is ok with it, since it's his spreadsheet.

[06redram]

I understand that, yes it is ! Your excel is the newest version and even if you link it to be upload it only works with newest excel. The older excel version does not let you do color layout. To post for others know

[AdamRRT]

Oh I think it does man. Ill install office 2000 on a computer and check. If I ever get done here at my in-laws.

[06redram]

Sounds great Adam

[AdamRRT]

What about the values that are missing? The first 2 colums and 4 rows of a few of the tables are blank. Is there a reason? I fixed it on the sheet I've been using, but I'm not sure if there's a reason. I would like to know before I post this spreadsheet with the color gradients, so I can fix if it needs. Thanks guys.

[TexasCummins]

The sheet isn't working for me, none of the formulas change after I enter my own numbers.

[THEFERMANATOR]

What about the values that are missing? The first 2 colums and 4 rows of a few of the tables are blank. Is there a reason? I fixed it on the sheet I've been using, but I'm not sure if there's a reason. I would like to know before I post this spreadsheet with the color gradients, so I can fix if it needs. Thanks guys.

The timing calculator allows you to adjust the timing for the power cells. I know for teh DMAX he leaves the cells blank for the idle areas as you normally leave these close to stock or stock.

[AdamRRT]

The timing calculator allows you to adjust the timing for the power cells. I know for teh DMAX he leaves the cells blank for the idle areas as you normally leave these close to stock or stock.Oh. I see. I wondered why I was seeing that. Makes sense.

[CIDRAUGHN]

Are you all using this as a baseline for a single injection event? Just wondering if pilot would cause a problem if it was used with these timing numbers. it seems like it is raising low load timing considerably, but leaving my high load timing very similar to what it was.

[AdamRRT]

Are you all using this as a baseline for a single injection event? Just wondering if pilot would cause a problem if it was used with these timing numbers. it seems like it is raising low load timing considerably, but leaving my high load timing very similar to what it was.

I use it for the parts that I need on my single event. Of course this just calculates timing for the main injection event. You gotta make the necessary modifications if you use another event.

Your timing changes because your stock tune uses low timing in high load areas in order to reduce NOX emissions. It's better to add some timing there. Although it seems to be a fine line between added efficiency and quicker spooling.

[CIDRAUGHN]

I use it for the parts that I need on my single event. Of course this just calculates timing for the main injection event. You gotta make the necessary modifications if you use another event.

Your timing changes because your stock tune uses low timing in high load areas in order to reduce NOX emissions. It's better to add some timing there. Although it seems to be a fine line between added efficiency and quicker spooling.

Im all for the quicker spooling. A straight gear with a s466 is slow enough as it is.
If you dont mind me asking, what total timing values would you be comfortable with as a max? Im seeing some in the 47 degree range, and I wasnt sure what a good rule of thumb was. I should be getting on the dyno soon so I can dial it in from there just need a rough number. Ive added a sheet to the timing calculator that will show you your total timing (pilot plus main) if anyone wants it.

[06redram]

Im all for the quicker spooling. A straight gear with a s466 is slow enough as it is.
If you dont mind me asking, what total timing values would you be comfortable with as a max? Im seeing some in the 47 degree range, and I wasnt sure what a good rule of thumb was. I should be getting on the dyno soon so I can dial it in from there just need a rough number. Ive added a sheet to the timing calculator that will show you your total timing (pilot plus main) if anyone wants it.

Send it to me please: bigcumminsdiesel@msn.com

[CIDRAUGHN]

Send it to me please: bigcumminsdiesel@msn.com

Email sent! Hope it works well. Im still out on what people are using for total timing numbers.

Edit: I should add that it is on sheet 2 at the lower section of the page.

[2007 5.9]

sbt@leftcoastdiesel.com..once you get it the way you want it.

Please.

Thanks

[CIDRAUGHN]

sbt@leftcoastdiesel.com..once you get it the way you want it.

Please.

Thanks
Lets see if I can attach it here...

12163 Let me know if it works correctly for you guys. I should also add that it is set up for timing tables that have the 20 degree bias added in, so if you are using the beta software without the bias, you should just add 20 to your values. It will spit out your total timing for pilot and main actual. (meaning the table it spits out will have the 20 degree bias subtracted already, and your values should be true to what is actually happening) Like I said, just let me know if it is working correctly, and if it isnt I may be able to fix it.

Les, its also in your inbox unzipped.

[2007 5.9]

Lets see if I can attach it here...

12163 Let me know if it works correctly for you guys. I should also add that it is set up for timing tables that have the 20 degree bias added in, so if you are using the beta software without the bias, you should just add 20 to your values. It will spit out your total timing for pilot and main actual. (meaning the table it spits out will have the 20 degree bias subtracted already, and your values should be true to what is actually happening) Like I said, just let me know if it is working correctly, and if it isnt I may be able to fix it.

Les, its also in your inbox unzipped.

Got it...works as described.

Thank tou

[06redram]

I got it I see how it works cool. Thnks

[CIDRAUGHN]

Great. Its good to know I can at least contribute something to all this. :hihi: Sometimes trying to follow the guys on here is a challenge. Its a constant learning process for me.

[AdamRRT]

I'm not sure of my total possible timing yet. I know of course on the big end a single event is preferred. And with that, I leave my limiters at 45* BTDC, which means a true 25* max. But I've not had time to tune for max power and I feel that I'm not yet ready to tune for max power. I still feel like I have a lot to learn regarding what's safe and what isn't. But for myself and a few guys on here that I talk to, we use a true 25* (45* with bias added in) as a safety point. The guys making big power I'm sure use more. I'm just not at a point to need to push that limit. YET. I'm very big on playing it safe.

[2007 5.9]

I have yet to find a truck weather its a 600hp daily driver our our 900hp puller that anything over 28* is beneficial. So I'd recommend dyno tuning to push it past 25*....

Its beginning to look like (from my experience only) that 25-28* is the saturation point of the bowl design of the 600 series motors.

[CIDRAUGHN]

Yeah Im staying between 25 and 26 degrees for main timing, Im just curious as to where you guys start modifying your pilot tables when you see a total timing number exceed X degrees. Say for instance looking at a box tuner you see total timing values in excess of 80-90 degrees. I just feel like 80 degrees is excessive. I know most are killing pilot in high rpm range, but I have found at least for now that utilizing pilot has helped me keep smoke control in check with my injectors. I started backwards from most by trying to tune in a good pilot, and try to understand the whole three injection event cycle before I start removing and simplifying it. Im even still using a small post event to spool the charger in low rpm and load situations; and I have killed it completely in the high rpm situations of course. Its been beneficial so far, but tricky to say the least.
Ive made pie charts showing the degrees and micoseconds at 2200 rpm and 3500 rpm, and in the higher rpm, the events get really crammed together. The pie charts may seem trivial, but it has helped me visualize the percents before and after tdc for main, and how increasing pulse width alters the other events.

[AdamRRT]

The timing calculator allows you to adjust the timing for the power cells. I know for teh DMAX he leaves the cells blank for the idle areas as you normally leave these close to stock or stock.Just a thought... should we find a nice low value to put in there to save fuel at idle? I'd like to save fuel wherever I can. Seems like we could lock something into those cells so that we have a complete table to copy from. Maybe not. Just thinking out loud.

[Compcowboy]

I am having troubles pasting into the excel file. I am using open office. I try to copy as directed in the top of the file and it just changes the vertical axis in the first column and fills it with a bunch of mixed up numbers. If i try to select the whole table to overlay it, it pops up with a "cannot paste to protected cells" error message. I am sure its something simple i am doing wrong, but any help would be appreciated.

[AdamRRT]

Pretty sure that OpenOffice won't cut it. I had to dl MS Office.

[Compcowboy]

Thats what i was thinking. I guess i will go look for MS Excel

[GMPX]

The calculator is now including in the EFILive tuning tool.

[Compcowboy]

For the 5.9s, yes. Is it usable with the 6.7s in excel?

[GMPX]

Fair enough, I missed that in your sig.
The next update will include the timing calculator for the 6.7L as well.

[2006Cummins]

The calculator is now including in the EFILive tuning tool.

So, I just want to be sure about this. The timing calculator that is included in the latest v7.5 update is very much like the josh h calculator where we want the percentage to be at about 50% across the board as a ballpark number? I am asking because I used the josh h calculator to build my timing table, and have only made a few small changes, but my table ranges from 26-63% when viewed on the v7.5 calculator.

[MQ105]

First, the calculator is relative to pressure, so if you have changed fuel pressure it will change your percentage when you run the calculator. Second, the stock timing/pressures don't produce 50% across the board. If your timing and pressure are similar to stock then your percentages will reflect that.

[GMPX]

So, I just want to be sure about this. The timing calculator that is included in the latest v7.5 update is very much like the josh h calculator.
Yes, Paul (who writes the tuning tool) and Josh H worked together on it.

[Compcowboy]

Thanks, I should have clarified since i was posting in the 5.9 section.

[2006Cummins]

Super, thanks.