First time calc.vet attempt, I have issues

[thunderstruck507]

I followed the tutorial but something is wrong.

My map for VE only filled in the column labeled "15.2". I think it is setup wrong. Columns range 2.2-15.2 and rows range 400rpm-8000rpm.

My tune file VE table is setup to read RPM vs Map PSI which I think could be the problem. Any other ideas and how to fix it?

[joecar]

Can you post a screen shot (but first, on the map properties, under each of the Data, Row, Col tabs, checkmark Show Units).

Are you doing Calc.VET (using SELBEN) or are you using WO2BEN to map the VE table...?


For example, this is what I see from your log file:

12242 12243 12244

[joecar]

Did you do this (in the scantool):
- on PIDs tab, rightclick on MAP and select Metric;
- on your map, on the map properties Data tab, select the kPa version of MAP (checkmark Names to make it easier).

[thunderstruck507]

This is what I've got. I keep changing things and nothing in the cells ever changes. Frustrating.

I originally had calc.vet instead of the WO2BEN, changing it didn't seem to make a difference.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/thunderstruck507/Untitled.jpg

[joecar]

In the tunetool, goto the B0101 VE table and rightclick in the upper left empty tile, select Copy With Labels;

Goto scantool, goto map, on each of Col and Row tabs, click Paste Labels, and save map.

[joecar]

Ok, for anyone reading along, the problem was this:

the tunetool was displaying B0101's MAP axis in psi... to fix this we went go Edit->Configure Display Units and set B0101 to Metric;

then we did-copy-with-labels on B0101;

then in the scantool, in the map properties, on the Columns tab, we did Paste Labels... the map now looks like the VE table.

[joecar]

Also remember to:
- in tunetool options, set the commanded fuel to EQ units, and VE units to g*K/kPa.
- in scantool, on PIDs tab, rightclick on MAP and set to Metric (this allows the scantool->tunetool cursor linking to work properly).
- in scantool, on Maps tab, when ready to apply a map, remember to apply the filter (ignores transient data).

Read the filter conditions carefully, they should make sense.

[thunderstruck507]

Thank you again Joe for taking the time to speak with me on the phone and work through this. I really appreciate it and you were very helpful.

[joecar]

We did a CALC.VET map paste into Thunder's VE table, it looked good...

it had two small peaks with no cell hits around them, so the surround area can be smoothed up to the peaks;

it also had a hole in the low area, so either (depending on which cells were hit) the surrounding area can be pushed down (to be level with the hole) or the hole brought up, or half-and-half;

i.e. you have to guestimate the un-hit cells based on the surrounding hit cells;

go File->Save As and notice a number is appended to the filename, use this to keep track of your edited files;

when you flash and log, you will see if your guestimates were good or not.

[joecar]

Remember, the Calc.VET tutorial does this:
- corrects the B5001 MAF table using the pid SELBEN (which you paste-multiply);
- calculates the B0101 VE table using the pid VET (which you paste);

use the with-labels variant for any pastes into any table.

[thunderstruck507]

If you get a chance can you take a look at the MAF map? It might just be bad information but when I do a paste-multiply into the MAF table of the tune, it drops the curve to nearly a straight line instead of a slope from low to high.

I will try to do a better log tomorrow.

[joecar]

For the MAF table:
- did you create the map axis's by doing Paste Labels from B5001...?
- are you using SELBEN as the map data...?
- are you using MAFFREQ on the row axis...?

(you can use any logged pid as the column axis)

Post a pic of your MAF map.

[thunderstruck507]

I will double check all of those parameters again. If it's still incorrect I will try building the map again and closing and restarting the program. If it still doesn't seem correct I will post a picture.


Do I need to take any special considerations since I installed 41# Bosch injectors from a supercharged 3.8? I already used information from this forum to recalibrate the injector flow rate table and my part throttle/cruise must be close because the wideband gets stoic and the ltft are -5% to 0% at cruise.

WOT, the wideband reads fat at 11.5 on the initial hit and from there it goes to low 11s by ~6000rpm.

[thunderstruck507]

Well checked everything and tried it again, this time it looks like a curve so I guess it was a fluke or I did something wrong pasting/multiplying last night.

[joecar]

Thunder, post a screenshot of the MAF map so I can see what you saw.

[thunderstruck507]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v477/thunderstruck507/Untitled-1.jpg

I didn't change any settings, just made sure the filters were applied and re-pasted with multiplication.

I think either I had forgot to apply the filter or it wasn't multiplying when I was pasting. I'm getting the hang of things a little more.

[joecar]

Ok, that looks correct (all values are in the vicinity of 1.00).

[joecar]

To make the MAF map narrower, in the map properties goto the Cells tab and checkmark Constrain Cell Size.

[thunderstruck507]

Did a long drive with a lot more driving conditions. Seemed to go pretty well. The new map has a couple small spikes and I smoothed them some but I'm through for the day.

Here's the tune file that resulted:

Well I can't get it to upload, keeps saying "error #2038". Tried saving a copy as a different name and it won't upload either

[joecar]

Try uploading tomorrow.

[thunderstruck507]

tune:

12247

[thunderstruck507]

Loaded the new tune. Idled like it always did in the shop while it was warming up, but when I put it into gear it starts surging (enough to die the first try) for a bit then settles down. Does the same thing once I stop at lights. So I need to figure that out and do some other idle tweaks once I learn how.

Driving it feels great, nice and crisp. I just drove to work on city streets, but gave it one quick stab in 2nd and the air fuel dropped to a much more respectable 12.8, lean from the base tune's 11.4-11.2 so I'm on the right track. Just need to watch during a longer pull to make sure it doesn't go any leaner and see how everything else feels.

[joecar]

Some of this may help:



Idle Tuning
showthread.php?4661-Idle-Tuning-Helpful-Info-Inside (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?4661-Idle-Tuning-Helpful-Info-Inside)
showthread.php?14439-Idle-Tips-amp-Tricks (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14439-Idle-Tips-amp-Tricks)
showthread.php?5866-Auto-VE-questions (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?5866-Auto-VE-questions)
showthread.php?14153-scan-tool-wont-log-rafig-or-rafpn (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14153-scan-tool-wont-log-rafig-or-rafpn)
showthread.php?14435-Need-help-Can-Start-Car-but-dies-when-I-give-it-any-throttle-before-going-to-CL (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14435-Need-help-Can-Start-Car-but-dies-when-I-give-it-any-throttle-before-going-to-CL&p=129519&viewfull=1#post129519)
showthread.php?7011-ETC-cars-and-IAC-parameters (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?7011-ETC-cars-and-IAC-parameters&p=61455&viewfull=1#post61455)
showthread.php?14544-Working-on-my-idle-tune (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14544-Working-on-my-idle-tune)
showthread.php?14794-Help-with-open-loop-(cold-start)-tuning (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14794-Help-with-open-loop-%28cold-start%29-tuning&p=133446#post133446)
showthread.php?149-Idle-(Transition)-Tuning (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?149-Idle-%28Transition%29-Tuning)

More Idle Tuning
showthread.php?t=149 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=149)
showthread.php?t=5866 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=5866&highlight=RAFIG)
showthread.php?p=86553 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?p=86553) post #17
showthread.php?t=2630 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=2630)
showthread.php?t=473 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=473)

Throttle Cracker/Follower
showthread.php?t=3568 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=3568)
showthread.php?t=4081 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=4081)
showthread.php?t=5406 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=5406)
showthread.php?t=5940 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=5940)

[joecar]

If you get no knock during WOT, the PE AFR 12.8 is good.

[thunderstruck507]

Did some more driving last night to really run through some RPM. AFR is 12.8 in the midrange but creeps to 13.12 near the top so I would prefer to fatten that back up.

To do this would I add or subtract from the MAF table? I think I would subtract. Or does it have to be done by modifying the logged values before pasting/multiplying to do what I'm wanting?


I also kept getting frustrated with the VE table looking like a mountain range so I went back to the log and set it to ignore cells with less than 20 hits (since it was a long log session) and I created a new MAP from that. Now my VE table looks MUCH smoother. I adjusted some of the values manually to make it even cleaner. I still have a valley down low in the green areas I need to bring up but it was late and I was getting tired. I hope this new tune will make the idle quality improve back to where it was before I changed the VE table.

Thanks for looking and any pointers guys! I will try to upload the new version of the tune and a screenshot.

[joecar]

Adding to the MAF table means more airmass which means more fuel (to maintain a specific AFR).

Doing the paste multiply is the way to correct the MAF (the SELBEN will converge on 1.00 +/- 0.01)...

then adjust B3618 PE table to the AFR or EQR you want.

[joecar]

Yes, set the cell ignore count higher.

Also drive with smoother application of throttle.

Apply a more restrictive filter.

[thunderstruck507]

Thank you for those tips!

I loaded the smoother version of the tune. Much better. This time it fired right up cold and idled, even once I put it into gear it didn't surge. The only time it had issues was if I was at very very light throttle and let off completely very quickly. This would cause it to surge.

Everything else seems very good, LTFTs during in town cruise were cycling between -1% to .8% on driver bank and 0% to 1.2% on the passenger bank (my fuel rail is flipped so inlet side is passenger side). I will adjust the PE table like you said to fatten up things some. It runs very strong with these changes so far.

[joecar]

See the throttle cracker/follower links above.

Sounds like you got it running good :cheers: good job.

How are the gear shifts, are they firm and positive...?

[thunderstruck507]

I didn't notice them being different than normal so I guess that is a good sign haha.

Partially because on street tires I have been trying to just pull through 2nd gear or third gear. I haven't been on a dead enough road to want to run through second and into third and keep going. Tonight I'm going to put the ET streets on so I can see how it feels when it's not spinning.

Thanks again for the help, you made this fairly easy and straightforward. I will check out the link and toy with that some tomorrow. Once I get it to stop surging and dying under those rare occasions I will be very happy with it. Sometimes on warm start up I have been having an issue with it revving itself up to 2k rpm and holding there for about 20 seconds. Would that be related to the same thing?

[thunderstruck507]

So I set PE table 3618 to display in AFR but the ones on the table are what I would want, but the wideband reads leaner. Do I just reduce them until the wideband shows what I want it to be, or does this mean something is off somewhere else I should correct first?




I started looking at my idle tables. I think first thing tomorrow I need to unplug the IAC and set the tb screw. The car sometimes wants to drive itself with no throttle...but the guy who did my last tune apparently zeroed out the throttle cracker airflow table.

[thunderstruck507]

Set my throttle blade. Idle is pretty darn good except it still has issues rolling up to stop lights where it will idle fine for a couple seconds then fall too much and start fluctuating enough to stall. If you stab the throttle hard then let off you can be pretty sure it will die too.

Last couple starts it has stopped revving itself up and taking a while to fall into normal idle, it also no longer tries to drive itself down the road.

Back to the books. I guess the hard part is deciding which of the dozen or so parameters that effect idle it is I need to be working with.

[thunderstruck507]

Last couple tunes I have tried are much much much worse. The car won't stay running without throttle input, so I went back to my previous tune.

Now it does great everywhere except cold starts, it starts hunting when coming to stops right before the car gets fully stopped, and if I goose the throttle and let off. I keep trying different things with timing and the throttle cracker and either nothing changes or it gets worse. The car also often stumbles or dies when going from park to drive or reverse.

The reading I'm doing still hints that it could be something to do with the idle timing transitions between tables. Also I did notice on warm start up the idle AFR gets as lean as 16.8-17 which seems too lean to me and could be contributing.




Well hell, tried to go to a cruise in with some friends and with no changes to the car other than it cooling down, it started acting like crap again. Fired off and ran a couple seconds then died and from then on the rest of the night I had to 2 foot it to keep it running the rest of the night, even after warming up and driving 15 miles on the interstate. If I let off the throttle it dies. When letting off even before the RPMs drop all the way it sounds weak and quiet. Air fuel with the minimum throttle to keep it running at 5mph roll was 14.8-15.5 but kept flashing to 16s and low 17s too.

I'm pulling hair here. It's going to be really hard to fix the tune if the same tune runs this bad a couple hours later. I drove on this tune a dozen times or so this afternoon.

[joecar]

Anything above AFR 14.8 is too lean.

Did you also correct the MAF table...?

You might want to check the O2 sensors, in close loop are they switching sufficiently fast...?

Do you have long tube headers...?

[thunderstruck507]

I did correct the MAF table based on my last log.

O2 sensors were switching fine last time I was scanning. Yes I do have long tubes. I'm going to scan for codes tonight and try some logs to see if I can't pinpoint what the issue is, which might be difficult since it's intermittent.



After I look over everything mechanical I'm going to try logging cold start idle and saving that then logging warm idle and saving that so I have some things to look at.
If that doesn't give me something I can work with, I'm debating starting over from scratch at this point. Double checking IAC counts and adjusting the throttle blade, clean the MAF sensor, and then just reload the base tune I had and do VET all over.

I'm just confused why the car will be almost perfect minus some idle transition stuff, then after sitting a few hours would be virtually undriveable.

[thunderstruck507]

I reset the throttle blade so at warm idle I get IAC counts in the 70s.

Is it normal that my idle g*K/kPa are in the 55-60 range? A friend of mine seems to think that seems way high but he is basing his opinion on import car tuning. It seems to be idling with the MAF in the 1.2-1.5 lbs/min range now, when it was cold I had to hold the throttle to keep it running and it was flowing 1.8-2.0 lbs/min.

I still don't know why the car wouldn't stay running last night. Once it got warmed up tonight it seems back to the usual, rock solid idle until I blip it then it hunts a moment and settles.

I did 2 short logs, 1 with basic info and 1 with calc.vet pids turned on.

[joecar]

55-60 is on the high side of ok.

[thunderstruck507]

I cleaned the MAF sensor and looked over everything (o2 sensors, fuel pump, vacuum lines, battery connections, ground wires, etc), it all seems ok. I also marked the TB set screw so I can watch and make sure it's not backing itself out. I can't think of any other ideas which would make the car intermittently not want to stay running.

As long as that issue stays away I will start trying some things based on the above posted readings. I think I will start by logging a lot of idle running to see how accurate my VE table is in the 800 range then as per the reading copy the 800row into the 400 row and reduce it by ~10%.

I will also make sure the low end of my MAF scaling is also accurate and look over the timing settings for idle before proceeding with other tune changes since it looked like it was dipping into the teens rather than staying in the 20s.

[joecar]

Look at other things also:
- is coolant being consumed (check cold and hot levels in overflow reservoir every day);
- is compression good;
- is there oil in the intake manifold (pooled on floor);
- are you sure about exhaust leaks;
- do you get good spark at all plugs;
- do misfire counts register any significant counts.

[thunderstruck507]

Everything mechanical checked out.

I redid the low end maf scaling that my log didn't hit and that seems to have helped considerably. They were really bad low, I think under circumstances where airflow was dipping into the lower hertz ranges it was causing issues. I raised the values to be closer to the ones I logged.

It idles high on a warm start then finally drops to where it's set at 850rpm and idles great there. You can goose it a little and it does good catching itself, but goose it more and it surges then dies.

I tried copying stock tables for TC, TF, and IAC and reduced them 50% per a link above. With that tune the car idled high, but when it came down instead of idling at 850 it just flat out died.

So I reverted to my previous tune. Here is a log of that. Any suggestions on what to attack first on my next attempt to prevent the surging?

[thunderstruck507]

I keep going backwards with my attempts, it gets leaner at idle and starts driving like crap. So I guess I need to go the other way?

I went back to my first tune using the VET corrections, no other changes from the base tune. I guess I'm just not wrapping my head around this stuff in the right way. My books and tutorials point to things to change but don't explain as well as I would like what I'm really doing and why.

I had 8-9% ltft so I added 8% to the MAF table and that seems to have evened it out decently well. Still just a tad lean in the low 15s once it settles.

[joecar]

Check the units the tunetool is using (Edit->Options):
- set fueling units to EQR;
- (I also like to use VE units g*K/kPa.)

[thunderstruck507]

That's how we set it up when I talked to you on the phone, I will confirm that is still how it's set.

Is my thinking correct then that I need to add percentage until the LTFT get close to 0 or in the negative just a little? Or is there some other way I should be correcting?

I did not go WOT to see if it changed my WOT a/f from 13s to more reasonable levels. I'm trying to be safe in my changes. The idle (while the same rpm as before) sounds stronger now that it's not so lean. It has some "pop" to it instead of sounding so lifeless.

[thunderstruck507]

Well, answered my own question, car runs like crap.

Guess I misread that. I guess this means the VE table is the source of the fueling problems. Maybe I got overzealous with smoothing at the low end. Back to the books.

[thunderstruck507]

I loaded the bare bones tune I made from my CALC.VET log with no changes and went for a long drive this afternoon logging calc.vet again. I did a lot more smooth transition of the throttle, some long highway pulls in second gear and third gear, and a lot of in town driving.

I copy/pasted the results into a new tune file and it was pretty smooth so I adjusted 2 stray MAF scale points and loaded it to the car without touching the VE for more smoothing.

The car runs great except it was still struggling at lights if I didn't babysit the throttle release speed. I had somewhere to go and my truck was blocked in so in a desperation measure to make it more drivable in traffic, I adjusted the idle set screw on the TB just the width of a Sharpie marker width. Much to my surprise it is new flawless as far as idle and drivability now.

It fired up, idled at 1200rpm for a split second then dropped to 850rpm. In gear it idles at commanded 850-900rpm and once I'm rolling above 20mph it idles at 1000rpm. I can goose the throttle and let off and it falls and idles perfect at 1000rpm. Once I slow the car to a near stop the idle drops to 850rpm again with zero surging or fuss. I am very very pleased.



My only concern is it still fluctuates idle air/fuel from 14.4-15.4 instead of a constant 14.6 and at WOT it gets into the 13.1-13.2 range. If I can fatten the tune for these 2 areas I will be 100% satisfied.

The only other things that need attention are cold starts (I have to hold it at 1500-2000rpm for about 45 seconds before it will idle on its own) and I would like to test timing at the track and see if the car gets any MPH or ET with another degree or two (it's at 26 for WOT right now with no KR at all anywhere).




Thanks for all the help! The car is a pleasure to drive again already.

[joecar]

...

My only concern is it still fluctuates idle air/fuel from 14.4-15.4 instead of a constant 14.6 and at WOT it gets into the 13.1-13.2 range. If I can fatten the tune for these 2 areas I will be 100% satisfied.Locate these areas on both the VE table and the MAF table.

What does B3618 contain...?


The only other things that need attention are cold starts (I have to hold it at 1500-2000rpm for about 45 seconds before it will idle on its own) and I would like to test timing at the track and see if the car gets any MPH or ET with another degree or two (it's at 26 for WOT right now with no KR at all anywhere).

...What does B3605 contain in that area (cold start)...?

[thunderstruck507]

3618 has the following:

12.803127
12.803127
12.803127
12.759505
12.726983
12.683877
12.651739
12.619763
12.577379
12.545778
12.503889
12.503889
12.503889
12.503889
12.598535
12.694626
12.694626
12.694626
12.694626

B3605 has this across every row (map psi across top, ECT *F down the side):

14.62857 14.445187 14.348332 14.348332 14.239219 14.052213 13.844417 13.742806 13.543995 13.446731 13.140051 13.048483 12.946982 12.946982 12.946982 12.946982 12.946982

[joecar]

Ok, your B3605 does not provide enough fuel when cold...

this is what the stock B3605 looks like (I'm displaying in EQ units):

12310

To convert EQR units to AFR units: take value of B3601 (14.63) and divide it by the EQR (e.g. 14.63/1.175 = 12.45)

[thunderstruck507]

Ok thanks, I will try a stock table in B3605 and see if that helps.

[thunderstruck507]

I'm starting to lose patience. Loaded in a new tune with that table altered and the car went back to the same old crap. I reloaded the previous tune and its still doing it.

I am at a loss. It's not just the surging and stumbling either, you can literally hear the difference. There is no power in the exhaust note, for instance when the car is running right it will rattle the dishes in the kitchen idling in the garage, when it's not they barely make a sound. It also has a very prominent cam lope when running correct and sounds almost stock when not. It's like Jekyl and Hyde.

Timing jumps all over the place and still no matter what I change the idle wants to go a little lean.

[joecar]

Hmmm... sounds like a physical problem... check the sanity of the MAP and MAF sensors (post some logs of the problem happening) .

[thunderstruck507]

Checked all the header primaries with an infrared thermometer. No signs of dead cylinders.

I added 2% to the ve table in the idle areas, but it still runs high 14s-low15s but then creeps as high as 18:1. I unplugged the MAF and the car runs almost identical to when it's plugged in, but did sound a little healthier and tried to lope some intermittently, but the AFR was still the same and still kept slipping lean every so often. I guess it could just be starving for fuel or air?
Don't want to keep running it tonight and annoy the neighbors so I packed it in for now.

I will catch a log during my lunch break tomorrow and post it up. What PID can I add to catch the wideband O2 sensor so you can see that too?

[joecar]

Then that leaves the NBO2's and the MAP... do they produce sane signals...?


GM.EQIVRATIO and EXT.WO2LAM1.

[thunderstruck507]

Started the car today (it fired and ran from a cold start even) and it ran better again, a little surge came back though. The AFRs are fatter and do not creep to extreme lean. I guess I will just have to catch it acting up again and log. I did notice the idle sounds stronger when in gear than park even at the same RPMs but that might not mean much.

I put a fuel pressure gauge on so I can keep an eye on that if it starts running poorly again. I will catch a log tomorrow morning either way. But everything on the scantool looked normal to me.

[joecar]

Thunder, did you get it sorted out...?

[thunderstruck507]

Thunder, did you get it sorted out...?

I have not messed with much in a long time. I am having a minor hanging idle problem which I think is the blade in the FAST tb so I need to take some time to see if it's dragging in the bore and if so fix that before I try to tune further.
Sometimes it hangs at 1200-1400rpm while coasting and others it goes down to normal idle. I've spotted the TP % at .5-1% a couple times so that's making me think it is hanging.




The only other major thing that's still been bugging me is an odd condition where I can start the car cold and let it warm up, but if I try to drive it without first turning it off for 15 seconds and then starting it back up it will surge and hunt for idle. It's much worse if the outside ambient air is colder. On a first start I can drive it for 15-30 minutes (never tried longer) and it will never get better no matter what temp the engine gets up to. However, if I start it and let it warm up just a little (say 160* coolant temp) then turn the car off for 15 seconds then restart it, it will run very well and have no issues. Even more strange it only seems to do this the very first time it is started that day.



The only other tune related hiccup I've noticed is when I start the car warm, the RPMs go up to around 1400rpm or so for about 5 seconds then come down to 1000rpm then back up just a tad before settling at the normal idle I have set. Not a big deal and a friend of mine who has had a few cammed ls1 cars said his all did that too. Is this really normal? It's almost like the PCM is transitioning between some commanded actions and then finally gets to a mode where the IAC corrects the problem.

Other than these idle problems, the car runs beautifully and has been running good at the track. I got a new PB recently of 11.79@114mph and a new PB MPH of 115mph. Fuel economy hovers close to 20mpg highway. The LTFT need a little work at highway cruise, they were -6% to -9% during a long drive yesterday.

[joecar]

11.79s ET and 20mpg/highway... that's pretty cool :cheers:


Hmmm, quite a few people have been plagued with airleaks inside their FAST manifolds.

[thunderstruck507]

Any idea why the car would run poorly on a cold start even once warmed, but immediately run fine once the ignition is off long enough to reset the PCM?

[joecar]

Any idea why the car would run poorly on a cold start even once warmed, but immediately run fine once the ignition is off long enough to reset the PCM?That's a hard one...

you would have to use an oscilloscope to view waveforms of CKP and ignition secondary to see what is really going on.

[thunderstruck507]

I thought it was strange. That's honestly the biggest peeve I have right now.