More Timing Questions

[2006Cummins]

Just wondering what kind of luck you guys are having with the new timing maps produced by the timing calculator. I have played with it a little, but have been more focused on other parts of the tune lately. The maps that the timing calculator produce seem to be quite different from what I have used, and what I have seen other people using. It seems like there is far less timing in the low mid-range, and quite a bit more at the top-end. I don't know how I feel about running the 33* (actual) that it recommends.

Also, table D6273 is a boost adjust multiplier table. Is the psi in psia? If it is, it looks like it would only be used at high altitude?

Mike

[AdamRRT]

Just wondering what kind of luck you guys are having with the new timing maps produced by the timing calculator. I have played with it a little, but have been more focused on other parts of the tune lately. The maps that the timing calculator produce seem to be quite different from what I have used, and what I have seen other people using. It seems like there is far less timing in the low mid-range, and quite a bit more at the top-end. I don't know how I feel about running the 33* (actual) that it recommends.I'm having no problems. Remember, you have parts of the maps that aren't used. Plus some people change timing based off the stock timing, so they're not really going for best performance or efficiency. They're basing it off an emissions-friendly timing.
What % are you requesting that is resulting in a 33% ACTUAL timing? You DID remove 20* from your timing before pasting your table into the spreadsheet, right?

[2006Cummins]

I didn't change the 50% that was requested. I also didn't add my timing table to the spreadsheet. I just pasted my pressure and duration tables. According to the spreadsheet, 3100ms and 170kpa = 32.55* at 3500rpm.

Mike

[JoshH]

The low timing in the low end is why there is a minimum timing option, and the high timing at the top end is why you can adjust the percentage at every spot along the way. You fine tune it for what you find works best for you. At 3500 RPM, it takes about 65 degrees of crankshaft rotation to spray the injector for 3100 microseconds. Just remember, if you start the event 2.5 degrees sooner, it will continue to spray 2.5 degrees later (in other words, if you start at 30 degrees BTDC, the injector will not stop until 35 degrees ATDC).

[2006Cummins]

So, that brings up the question - what is the useful maximum degrees of crank rotation that fuel can be injected without creating extreme cylinder pressure, or wasting fuel and creating excessive egt's? Something like 29* BTDC and 45*ATDC?

Mike

[CIDRAUGHN]

Subscribing to this. I am also curious as to how this works. C7001 is limiting how far the injector can stay open past TDC. Ive upped mine to 22.5 across the board, but have any of you benefited from going higher? Im running around 23* of timing at 3200 RPM, and its works very well.

[AdamRRT]

That's good info that the guys who have fine tuned on the dyno can answer. I haven't made time yet to go play on the dyno because I feel I have a lot I want to learn before I waste my buddy's dyno time. I wanna hit the dyno to FINISH my tune instead of to start it, basically. So I'm in to hear some on this as well. Thanks guys.

[DoghouseDiesel]

You don't FINISH tuning on a dyno, that IS where you tune.

There is NO OTHER place that you can get safe, repeatable, verifiable and recordable results.

Motors get tuned on the dyno, chassis' and suspensions get tuned on the track.

Seat of the pants tuning yields one thing.....frustrating results.

You can believe what you like, but a few hours on the dyno is worth it's weight in gold if you're trying to tune.

Even if you're not trying to tune for max power and are just trying to tune out smoke. Set the dyno to steady state RPM's so it will adjust the load and maintain a consistant engine RPM and you roll into the throttle and see where it's producing smoke.

Dyno time is never wasted time unless you just don't know what you're doing. Then you're just guessing and that's wasted time.

[2007 5.9]

You don't FINISH tuning on a dyno, that IS where you tune.

There is NO OTHER place that you can get safe, repeatable, verifiable and recordable results.

Motors get tuned on the dyno, chassis' and suspensions get tuned on the track.

Seat of the pants tuning yields one thing.....frustrating results.

You can believe what you like, but a few hours on the dyno is worth it's weight in gold if you're trying to tune.

Even if you're not trying to tune for max power and are just trying to tune out smoke. Set the dyno to steady state RPM's so it will adjust the load and maintain a consistant engine RPM and you roll into the throttle and see where it's producing smoke.

Dyno time is never wasted time unless you just don't know what you're doing. Then you're just guessing and that's wasted time.

Well put Rich...dyno time is critical.

[DoghouseDiesel]

Everybody thinks the dyno is just for seeing how much HP and TQ you make.

That is just one small function of it and if that's all it gets used for, you miss out on the value of it.

Most guys are only concerned with the peak power and that's such an over-emphasized number.

The guys that really get the most out of it are the ones that look to maintain the peak power the longest and get it there the quickest. This is why you you not only compare the runs in RPM, but you also compare the runs in time.

If one pull makes 600 hp and takes 6.8 secs total and 4 seconds to peak and another run makes 580 hp, but takes 5.8 seconds and 3 seconds to peak, which one is really the more powerful tune?

Like I said, if you think you're going to FINISH tuning on the dyno, you're a long way away from being dialed in.

[AdamRRT]

Excellent opportunity for me to learn then. I don't get how you guys are gonna do part throttle and drivability on an inertia dyno (only dyno that i have access to but nobody asked). If I had access to a load bearing dyno I wouldn't ha e that issue. Should be a logical conclusion. Especially since so much of the part throttle and drivability part is personal preference, not data. Care to help me understand that to save me the time? I KNOW you have way more experience with diesel tuning than I have.

FYI I'm aware you don't tune with seat of pants. But if youre using an inertia dyno (I'm in BFE and thats all thats around), data and smoke watching over time can be used to tune on the street for part throttle (unlike a gasser with a MAF which can have cylinder filling data which works perfectly for power tuning on the street). I wish I had better access. The only load bearing nearby did a horrible job last time I went to their dyno day. Some trucks seemed to just not get loaded for some reason.

And heck yes I'm a long way from being dialed in! That was made clear! Man try to not cut me down with something I've already said. That's no insult. I'm learning not master of it.

[AdamRRT]

I know the answer though: drive farther to get on a load bearing dyno. I'm actually not that worried right now. I have a lot to learn, and will be wasting MONEY not time by using a dyno other than my buddy's free one. I should have said that. Money. Not time. Wasted. Because I just don't feel that I have the knowledge to tune in the drivability yet and prefer to wait until I know more.

Also, I was under the impression that you guys have customers make street pulls and send you the datalogs for tuning. I know it's done on gassers like I said they have pids to allow that, so I must have it confused because of that. You're tuning based off of emailed dyno pulls, not street runs? I know it's always optimal to use the dyno but like I said reality is often different from optimal for a huge percentage of the population. I never thought about it since I'm not a user of mail order tunes, but it makes perfect sense that you're only tuning dyno pulls. I slept on that one.

[Dmaxink]

You don't FINISH tuning on a dyno, that IS where you tune.

There is NO OTHER place that you can get safe, repeatable, verifiable and recordable results.

Motors get tuned on the dyno, chassis' and suspensions get tuned on the track.

Seat of the pants tuning yields one thing.....frustrating results.

You can believe what you like, but a few hours on the dyno is worth it's weight in gold if you're trying to tune.

Even if you're not trying to tune for max power and are just trying to tune out smoke. Set the dyno to steady state RPM's so it will adjust the load and maintain a consistant engine RPM and you roll into the throttle and see where it's producing smoke.

Dyno time is never wasted time unless you just don't know what you're doing. Then you're just guessing and that's wasted time.


x2 i try and try to explain this..

[AdamRRT]

I know those with access to a load bearing dyno wouldn't use an inertia dyno if it was given to them. But I'm stuck with what I've got access to and gotta make do. Unless... Rich's shop should be about 8hr from me as an estimate. I'd love to just turn him loose on it. But it's just too far for me.

[DoghouseDiesel]

Don't make assumptions about how some of us tune.

Everything is done in balance, NOT in one singular environment.

And quit referring to your gas tuning, this is a 180* different environment. Take that gas nonsense and throw it out the window. I know some GREAT gas motor builders / tuners that don't even know what the hell they're looking at when I open the hood of my truck.

Also, you don't go to a DYNO DAY, expecting to tune. You go there to get 3 pulls for HP and TQ, that's it. When you tune, it's just you and the dyno operator. If the operator doesn't understand what you want, you better or it's going to be a bad day and little will get accomplished. If you have a bad day during a tuning session, it's not just the operators fault, it's the owners fault for not knowing what they want or how to tune or what they're paying for. For $100/hr, I sit there and push start/stop/brake and make sure you don't get hurt and YOU tune your truck. For $150/hr, "I" tune the truck. Big difference between the $100/hr Rich and the $150/hr Rich.

Trust me, if I want to load a truck, I can load a truck. We can produce enough load to stall a 600 hp truck with no problem. With my truck on the dyno, to simulate the weight of the truck, I only run it at 30 - 35% load. At 100% it's generating 1500 ft/lbs of brake force.

[AdamRRT]

Lets get back to the topic of tuning timing. Rich/Kory/Les, and any other tuners who agreed with the comments addressing my inertia dyno tuning:
I guess first did you mean to agree on part throttle tuning an I retina dyno? If not, that kills this right here and that's cool. I guess the "no assumptions" concept applies to load bearing dynos as well as tuning strategy. :D

I really want to learn about part throttle tuning on the inertia dyno. The fact that you guys say it's possible honestly changes my plans of slowly logging then adjusting (I'm in no rush so far but that could change). Any tidbits of info? Cause I thought it was pointless/fruitless, but admittedly I haven't tried it.

So when you guys tune via email, do you only take customers with full access to load bearing dynos? Or does it matter since you guys can part throttle tune on an inertia dyno?
And do you tell the customer exactly what pulls to make and at what load (when load bearing) and what TPS%?
And your customers - do they just keep making short 1hr dyno appointments during the tuning process, make a few pulls & send you the pulls/logs?

Like I have maintained since i started this board, I know my experience minimally applies to what you do. So I'd love to learn what I'd get from an email tune so I'm educated enough to consider paying for an amazing email tune to keep running between my own tuning. If its possible since you require access to a dyno and the one I have use of is non load bearing?
I'm considering it just out of curiosity and to see how good life can be, from the reviews.

[AdamRRT]

Nobody?
Cut me down about part-throttle tuning on an inertia dyno, but don't care to tell us how to do that either huh?

[DoghouseDiesel]

This is why you get no help Adam....

Sugar - Shit

Put one in each hand and take a lick, tell me which one you prefer.

[2006Cummins]

So, anyone have any comments on timing? There still may be an unansured question or two.

[AdamRRT]

This is why you get no help Adam....

Sugar - Shit

Put one in each hand and take a lick, tell me which one you prefer.

So the answer is that you jumped the gun in your response to me, but you're not going to admit it. Gotcha.

What do you want to see?
I'm not leaving. Heck I've not done anything to you. You keep twisting my words and attacking me and I honestly don't know what part of your mind makes that ok. But it's horrible for the board and for the future of EFI live tuning. New guys coming in don't need this crap. So let's call it quits. It won't bother me. I'll be here and my rep won't cost me money. Up to you but I'd like to drop it and just either you fly here and back up your mouth (since you're the one running his mouth first), or we call a truce and go on with life. Up to you. I'll be here either way.

*yes it's edited. I don't want to stoop to an even level in this pointless squabble.*

[AdamRRT]

So, anyone have any comments on timing? There still may be an unansured question or two.

Yup I agree. I still want to know how all these tuners who agree are tuning timing on an inertia dyno.

[DoghouseDiesel]

Keep digging your hole, Adam.

You do nothing but cry about folks not spoon feeding you what they know and then you want to smart off to the same folks that you want info from.

Take a good long look in the mirror. You're that guy. You're that guy thinks he has all the answers, but when it comes to putting them into practice, he doesn't know squat. You remind me of a college professor, someone that's never left the world of academia, got their PhD and thinks they know it all, but has the social skills of a clam.

And, I don't have to sit here and play Internet bad boy or go out of my way to find anyone. There are folks here that know my background very well. So, think twice before making idle threats, you've made no friends anywhere you've been junior.

I don't know who you think you're fooling with your little juvenile tirades or self righteous BS, but it's no one here. Trust me, you're like a little goldfish in a bowl and we all see what you are what you do.

To the OP and everyone else that has to read the drivel, I'm done with this nonsense. If you have a question, send me a PM, give me a call, shoot me an email, I'm an easy person to get ahold of, but I'm not wasting another second playing games.

[AdamRRT]

Keep digging your hole, Adam.Digging a hole? No consequences = no hole. Learn what the phrase means. Gees.


You do nothing but cry about folks not spoon feeding you what they know and then you want to smart off to the same folks that you want info from.Show me one thread where I've wanted info spoon fed to ME. Post it! Once again, you've somehow missed the point. Your reading skills suck man. Post it or shut up. Yet again you can't back up your mouth.


Take a good long look in the mirror. You're that guy. You're that guy thinks he has all the answers, but when it comes to putting them into practice, he doesn't know squat. You remind me of a college professor, someone that's never left the world of academia, got their PhD and thinks they know it all, but has the social skills of a clam.I in no way even come close to thinking I have all the answers. If I did, I wouldn't ask questions. Try to keep up with the basic flow of how it works. That comment is just retarded. Tell me how you can even say I think I have all the answers, when I ask questions. That's contradictory. And FYI: social skills? I'm not here to be your friend, idiot! We're supposed to be here to help each other learn. That's why I post the little bit that I know. But pay attention! I don't post on things I don't have any answer on. That's the difference in a know it all. I don't just make it up if I don't know the answer. So make up whatever you have to Rich. I've tried to be civil but you just lack the maturity to do the same.


And, I don't have to sit here and play Internet bad boy or go out of my way to find anyone. There are folks here that know my background very well. So, think twice before making idle threats, you've made no friends anywhere you've been junior.Threats? I've made none. I've told you to bring yourself here and back up your mouth. Looks like you won't. Be a pussy, like you are, internet tough guy. Run your cock holster online where there's no consequence. But remember, you look scared when you start running your mouth online and don't intend to back it up.
Make friends? Son, I'm not here to make friends. That's retarded! "Oh please be my e-buddy please der-der I'm Rich and I'm lonely." You're still nobody to me. Why would I have any respect for someone who from day one just decided randomly to pick apart my every post and twist the meanings to bad mouth me? It's just stupid.


I don't know who you think you're fooling with your little juvenile tirades or self righteous BS, but it's no one here. Trust me, you're like a little goldfish in a bowl and we all see what you are what you do.See what I do? uh yeah. whoa that hurts, Dick. Wow good one!


To the OP and everyone else that has to read the drivel, I'm done with this nonsense. If you have a question, send me a PM, give me a call, shoot me an email, I'm an easy person to get ahold of, but I'm not wasting another second playing games.Yeah, cause that's way better than admitting your faults and moving on with life. Gotcha.

Still just can't admit that you jumped the gun on the dyno comment huh? Sad little child.
Boy this IS fun. And honestly, hasn't effected my income one bit. I wonder how it's gonna effect yours. Hrmmm. Let's go!

[DoghouseDiesel]

Adam, I'm not even wasting my time reading another of your worthless waste of bandwidth idiotic rants.

So, whatever that last hour of your life was, enjoy. That was an hour that you could have spent actually answering your own questions.