AutoVE on our PCMs?

[skills4lou]

I've been trying to figure out
1. how to do Auto VE tuning
2. if my PCM is even capable of this.

Trying to read through the tutorials, not having much luck. Anyone know the answers? Thanks!

btw, I have V2 but do not have a WBO2.

[ScarabEpic22]

You should be able to do it, will have to build your own map in the scan tool. Need to make sure the black box PCM can output commanded AFR or EQ Ratio to make the map.

[GAMEOVER]

I did it 2 years ago, You do need a Wideband and you need to disconnect both front O2 sensor's to put pcm in OL...

[Taz]

I don't work with the "Black Box Vortec" PCM ... but I agree with Erik - it should be possible.

You will need a WBO though ...

Your Main VE table (B0101) will only display in g*K/kPa (not percent) ... you will need to get use to this. You also have a Backup VE Table (B0103) - like early LS1-B PCM OS.

Your MAF table (B6345) is in Hz vs g/sec ... so no issues there.

Read the AutoVE Tutorial (AutoMAF implied) ... you should be able to apply these techniques.


Regards,
Taz

[skills4lou]

Thanks guys! WBO2 is not in the budget for a while, but I'll be reading up on these so I'm ready when I can get them.

[joecar]

The Calc.VET/Calc.MAFT tutorials may help...

without a wideband those tutorials allow you to calculate/correct a portion of the MAF/VE tables using LTFT's (i.e. in Closed Loop); you will need properly functioning NBO2's;


to do the rest of the VE/MAF tables you will need a wideband.

[skills4lou]

Thanks Joe. Maybe I'm not reading the correct tutorial. Can you post a link?

[joecar]

A-New-Twist-on-CALC-VE-Table-Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-A-New-Twist-on-CALC-VE-Table-Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table)
Calculating-MAF-Airflow-From-VE-Table-CALC-VET-In-Reverse (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?16413-Calculating-MAF-Airflow-From-VE-Table-CALC-VET-In-Reverse)

[skills4lou]

Thanks Joe! Back to reading....

[Supercharged111]

I did it 2 years ago as well with my blackbox. Just read the tutorial and went to town. After 2 datalogs the thing was dead nuts on all the cells I could hit.

[skills4lou]

Well, it's gonna be a while before I do any logging....the dang t-case just went T.U. for the second time. No cash for a rebuild so the truck's gonna sit for a few months. Grrrrrr...

Separate note: I found a cell for Stoichiometric ratio. Since all I can get usually is E10, should I go ahead and change that? Depending on fuel mixtures E10 is usually around 14.1, whereas straight gasoline is 14.7. Any other tables to modify for that?
Thanks all.

[EagleMark]

Separate note: I found a cell for Stoichiometric ratio. Since all I can get usually is E10, should I go ahead and change that? Depending on fuel mixtures E10 is usually around 14.1, whereas straight gasoline is 14.7. Any other tables to modify for that?
Thanks all.I've always run 14.3 Stoich for the 10% ethanol fuel we have here in older OBDI vehicle and tuning. Now I'm watching my WideBand in the 1998 Chevy Vortec engine truck and it seems to be hovering around the same area although no changes have been made to the 14.7 Stoich... it's definatly lower then 14.7...

I'm glad to see some guys actually working with other PCMs other then LS. Sometimes there's no reason to need a change for a stock truck. now if we could only get a lean cruise for these we'd be set.

[skills4lou]

Thanks EagleMark. I was at a student Veterans meeting yesterday and met a guy who had the Innovate WBO2 setup. At some point I'm going to see about borrowing his setup. He's using on OBD1 Fords with different software, but has a lot of experience with tuning.

[EagleMark]

I've found the Innovate LC-1 and LM-1 very intograted to EFI Live. My LC-1 has worked well with other software/hardware in OBDI as well. Stoich changes are also working well in my L31 98 Vortec. Really a great EFI system that has been overlooked because of 411 swaps.

[hog]

I've found the Innovate LC-1 and LM-1 very intograted to EFI Live. My LC-1 has worked well with other software/hardware in OBDI as well. Stoich changes are also working well in my L31 98 Vortec. Really a great EFI system that has been overlooked because of 411 swaps.

What great EFI system has been overlooked because of 411 swaps?

peace
Hog

[slows10]

I think what eagle mark is saying is that a 97-98 vortec ecm is a great ecm / fuel injection setup for a bone stock engine,That has been drastically overlooked by the efi live crew for support. My question to eagle mark is do you think there are alot of usefull tables that have not been uncovered by efilive? Do you think the 97-98 black box ecms have the same or better tables than a 2000 up ls1b ecm? Is the black box ecm functionly equivalent to a 2000 up ecm, meaning the the black box was a better ecm than the 2000 up? Just wondering what your comments are about as well. I think as the years went by GM got better with every new ecm they added to the various lineups.

[hog]

The 96/97 Vortec "blackbox" PCM's are similar. The 1998-2000 Vortec "blackbox" are differnt than the 96-97's. EFILive supports the 98-00 blackbox. Tunercat OBD2, Jet DST, Westers GMT and Tunercats RealTime OBD2 support the 96-97 truck PCM's. There are a few hundred tuneable parameters in the 96-97 blackbox Vortec PCM's supported by TC2.

I have to diagree about the stock fuel injection. Those pesky poppets are problematic as they can carbon up, but they have supported 330rwhp/381rwtq Vortec 383 engines. I still use the 1997 blackbox Vortec PCM but I swapped out the L31/30 350/305 truck intake for a marine intake with teh stock stainless tipped 24lb/hr(@43.5psi-3BAR roughly 28-29@ 58psi/4BAR) marine injectors. The stock poppets spiders flow at 23.1 lb/hr at 66 psi(4.5BAR) of fuel pressure.
The stock 1996-2000 blackbox PCM's do also have a stock 5800-5900 rpm hard rev limit that no one has been able to punch through.
I do agree that when in proper working order, teh Vortec L30 305 and the L31 Vortec 350 do offer great low/mid rpm power/ torque and great upper rpm power when compared to the 88-95 TBI truck engine.

The 411- 512kb PCM was used in the Vortec 350/L31 equipped 2001-2002 Express vans. It has faster processors but also has much more code to chomp through as well. As one of the guys that said retrofits could be done, when many people said they couldnt. I am a large proponent of 411 swaps. Guys whoi have done them rave about them, even in stock applications.
If you are keeping revs under 5900rpm, dont need a Custom O/S, the stock PCM is just fine for most people. The 411 PCM opens up some tuning possibilities as well. If you ahve a 1996 or 1997 fullsize GMC or CHev truck, you are limited to realTime TC2, Jet DST and Westers GMT(big $$$ like $7199-but allows you to tune any 1996-2013 GM car or truck on the road). Tunercats when it came out in 2005 really helped out the do-it yourself tuner in the 1996-97-98-99-00 Vortec 305/350/4.3/454, you can even get 6.5 turbo diesel templates for Tunercats OBD2.

peace
Hog

[EagleMark]

I think what eagle mark is saying is that a 97-98 vortec ecm is a great ecm / fuel injection setup for a bone stock engine,That has been drastically overlooked by the efi live crew for support. My question to eagle mark is do you think there are alot of usefull tables that have not been uncovered by efilive? Do you think the 97-98 black box ecms have the same or better tables than a 2000 up ls1b ecm? Is the black box ecm functionly equivalent to a 2000 up ecm, meaning the the black box was a better ecm than the 2000 up? Just wondering what your comments are about as well. I think as the years went by GM got better with every new ecm they added to the various lineups.No I don't think the Vortec PCM is better then a newer faster PCM? But tuning ability of a LT1 PCM that is 4 years older is much more defined in home made software definitions! So did GM go backwards or is EFI Live missing half the paremeters? Since I got to look at older 2005 TunerCat OBDII software I can say half the paremeters are missing! Even the 96-97 has way more available. Really the 98-00 Vortec ability of EFI Live is not something that is ready for prime time or should be considered a vehicle that EFI Live can tune. It does not even have a simple switch to run open loop or open loop idle? I have a dissasembly of the 98 Vortec if you'd like to see what's missing? Or look at TC to see what has been added so there's enough to work with.

Point is not which is better. Point is the 98-00 Vortec is not even close to complete, none of the tutorials will work with it, PIDS needed are not supoprted, simple paremters are not there, so the easier answer is... "Swap to a 0411 LS PCM!" (which is a complete and tunable system with EFI Live).

I have given up with it and will have to do a 0411 swap... or use other software...

hog.

Thanks for all the info! I knew of some of the limitations and was not considering this as a high performance engine controller. But I have a need to do many stock/near stock Vortec engine swaps to off roaders. There are so many around here available that it is and has been coming up in many vehicles as an engine swap. Most are also giving up and going to TBI or even carbs.

[Supercharged111]

I'm certain there's enough code in the blackbox to make it useful, but it was never exploited as much as the 411s and other newer PCMs were. For instance, I can't adjust the MAP scaler or the IAT values, but you know they exist or else spark and fuel values wouldn't be based on them. Since it's so cheap, easy, and well documented to swap to a 411, there's really no reason not to unless you're as lazy as me.

[EagleMark]

It's not lazy, it's just no time. I was bound and determined to get Maps built etc... to do the auto or calc tune done before I swap it out. Ran into one rear O2 sensor voltage swinging? One steady. So I may have one bad CAT? That side fuel is constantly changing. Other side with steady rear O2 fuel is steady and fine. Looked and there's not even an O2 sensor folder? Would be nice to have some paremeters there to run Open Loop, or a way to turn off rear O2 sensors. From the way it looks the rear O2 sensors do give feedback, got no errors...

So what happens to fueling on these if you disconnect rear O2 sensors and turn off DTCs?

[hog]

I have read that the rear O2 sensors do about 10% of fuel trimming compared to the front O2 sensors. Its called FOASCO or FOCSAO or something like that. If Monodax was up I would be able to tell you.

I have turned of reporting with no apparent issues.

So far as the "blackbox" PCM code, its all there, its just that the tuning suites dont list all of the available parameters. Talking with a GM engineer who did calibrations for these trucks, he commented on there being many many parameters hidden in the Tunercats VDF's, let alone the EFILive ones. But he still tuned a Vortec 350 for just over 4000rwhp and 430rwtq with a Whipple and marine intake.

peace
Hog

[EagleMark]

I found the routine in a dissasembly, can also turn off HO2 2-2 if it had single exhaust, or run Open Loop for tuning, so simple things needed are there as well.

Not sure how guys earlier in this thread did the Auto VE or VE Calc? Done both of them on other engines, just can't validate the PIDS needed for this 98 Vortec engine? No commanded AFR or EQ Ratio? Could the Scan Tool be missing stuff as well?