AutoVE tuning with turbo

[WicketMike]

Please let me know if all of this sounds like a good starting point, if not please let me know what to change.

Timing, i am going to set it to 11* from .60 and up and from 2400rpms and up. Should i start at a lower rpm or even a lower cylinder air number?

Commaned Fuel when in Open Loop B3605 table, Should i leave it at 14.629 and 12.803? or should i move the 12.803 to something like 11.5 ?

Please advise and if there is anything else i should do because i really dont want any problems. :thankyou2:

Its a STS turbo T67 and stock car

[WicketMike]

i just noticed this forum is for 2 and 3 bar, i dont have that.

maybe move thread to general?

thanks

[jsttry]

I haven't done it myself but will be going down this avenue soon. I'd suggest you may want to try starting at 11.5 WOT AFR to be safer.

[WicketMike]

I haven't done it myself but will be going down this avenue soon. I'd suggest you may want to try starting at 11.5 WOT AFR to be safer.

I plan on going for 11.5 WOT, but what about AutoVE. while doing AutoVE do i still shoot for 12.8 at the higher maps?

[turboberserker]

I'd shoot lower. 12.8 is pretty high for higher boosts IMO.

[MN C5]

Mike, autoVE isn't going to work above 105kpa without a boost VE table. Running a 1bar still works but you'll be using PE to fuel vs. the VE table. Its not the smoothest way to do it but it can work.

FWIW you can make the stock OS work with a 2bar map. Search and you should find some info on here. My setup ran nicely with a 2bar map and a tweaked VE table. But I'd make life easier on yourself and find a way to get the Commercial upgrade. The Custom Operating Systems are fantastic:banana: :muahaha:

[Delco]

Please let me know if all of this sounds like a good starting point, if not please let me know what to change.

Timing, i am going to set it to 11* from .60 and up and from 2400rpms and up. Should i start at a lower rpm or even a lower cylinder air number?

Commaned Fuel when in Open Loop B3605 table, Should i leave it at 14.629 and 12.803? or should i move the 12.803 to something like 11.5 ?

Please advise and if there is anything else i should do because i really dont want any problems. :thankyou2:

Its a STS turbo T67 and stock car

If you dont have a commerical license find someone near you that has and get them to flash in a custom operating system , then you have full control of the whole tuning process and can use the auto VE to do both the VE table and the boost VE table , just make sure initially you start off with a rich VE table and come down rather than running it lean , also keep timing low at high loads - approx 10 deg to start with.

[WicketMike]

If you dont have a commerical license find someone near you that has and get them to flash in a custom operating system , then you have full control of the whole tuning process and can use the auto VE to do both the VE table and the boost VE table , just make sure initially you start off with a rich VE table and come down rather than running it lean , also keep timing low at high loads - approx 10 deg to start with.

I was told that a custom OS wont work on a 98. ??

Mike

[WicketMike]

Mike, autoVE isn't going to work above 105kpa without a boost VE table. Running a 1bar still works but you'll be using PE to fuel vs. the VE table. Its not the smoothest way to do it but it can work.

FWIW you can make the stock OS work with a 2bar map. Search and you should find some info on here. My setup ran nicely with a 2bar map and a tweaked VE table. But I'd make life easier on yourself and find a way to get the Commercial upgrade. The Custom Operating Systems are fantastic:banana: :muahaha:



ive searched and i havent been able to find any help with making a 2bar map work. everybody says to talk to Rick at Synergy and i did, but he sounded like he wants me to drive up there, its a 7hour drive :-(

[Delco]

Sorry , didnt notice you had a 98.

Your next option is to fit a 2 bar map sensor and halve your scaling resolution , can be done and it works fine just a fair bit more work

[MN C5]

ive searched and i havent been able to find any help with making a 2bar map work. everybody says to talk to Rick at Synergy and i did, but he sounded like he wants me to drive up there, its a 7hour drive :-(

O.K.
Not sure what 2bar sensor you have but basically what we are doing is halving the values from the MAP sensor so 100kPa becomes 50kPa as far as the PCM is concerned.
Another example, 150kPa at the engine, the PCM thinks is 75kPa, the reason being is the PCM will limit any kPa reading to 105kPa even if it is higher.
This is achieved by rescaling the MAP sensor, see parameter - C6301.
What we want to do is to be able to turn the key on (engine not running) and see the MAP sensor reading 50kPa.
This is done by changing that value above, the 2bar GM sensor I have (PN 16040749) needs a value of 127 in that field, you might need to play around with that a bit to get it spot on.
Then we also need to disable the running barometric pressure learning, this causes all sorts of issues.
Do this by going to parameters B0301 and B0302 and set them very high, like 7300 and 7500 RPM.
Also, set table B0304 to 1.0 everywhere.
Next we need to turn off the MAP sensor codes, do that by going to the Engine diagnostics section and change P0106, P0107 & P0108 to 'X'.
Also once the MAF is unplugged you will need to change just 'P0102' in the MIL light reporting to "No MIL".
If you have an ETC you will probably also need to change the table C6101 to the maximum allowed value.
If your MAP is scaled correctly then you need to think "Double Everything I see in kPa" for the real world value.

This should be enough to get you headed in the right direction. Does the 98 pcm have 2 VE tables? if so you'll have to do both tables I'd think..

[WicketMike]

O.K.
Not sure what 2bar sensor you have but basically what we are doing is halving the values from the MAP sensor so 100kPa becomes 50kPa as far as the PCM is concerned.
Another example, 150kPa at the engine, the PCM thinks is 75kPa, the reason being is the PCM will limit any kPa reading to 105kPa even if it is higher.
This is achieved by rescaling the MAP sensor, see parameter - C6301.
What we want to do is to be able to turn the key on (engine not running) and see the MAP sensor reading 50kPa.
This is done by changing that value above, the 2bar GM sensor I have (PN 16040749) needs a value of 127 in that field, you might need to play around with that a bit to get it spot on.
Then we also need to disable the running barometric pressure learning, this causes all sorts of issues.
Do this by going to parameters B0301 and B0302 and set them very high, like 7300 and 7500 RPM.
Also, set table B0304 to 1.0 everywhere.
Next we need to turn off the MAP sensor codes, do that by going to the Engine diagnostics section and change P0106, P0107 & P0108 to 'X'.
Also once the MAF is unplugged you will need to change just 'P0102' in the MIL light reporting to "No MIL".
If you have an ETC you will probably also need to change the table C6101 to the maximum allowed value.
If your MAP is scaled correctly then you need to think "Double Everything I see in kPa" for the real world value.

This should be enough to get you headed in the right direction. Does the 98 pcm have 2 VE tables? if so you'll have to do both tables I'd think..

wow! thanks.

ok, so i first set C6301 to a number (127example) that will get me to 50kpa map with the ignition on.
Then setup the other parameters.
When you say if my MAP is scaled correctly then i need to double it. your talking about the Main VE table correct and backupVE table cuz of 1998. My tables are stock right now, only mod is the turbo. So should i double all the numbers and then do AutoVE?

thank you very much for your help

:master:

[MN C5]

Sorry I didn't see this till today.

Save your current tune under a new name like BoostedVE or what ever you want.

Then open a second running program of Flashscan with your current tune.

From your original tune copy and paste the VE table values into the other running program with the open file Boosted VE. Start with the 100kpa and paste it into the 50kpa slot.. 80kpa to 40kpa and so one... then smooth the table from 50kpa down. Then follow the instructions in the Custom OS for filling in a boosted VE table. You will need to convert your EFI Live readings depending on how you set it up. I wanted to see real KPA #'s so I was able to use auto tune by copy and pasting one KPA column at a time.

Let us know how your doing.

Dennis

[WicketMike]

I turned on the ignition with the orginal map to see what the map kpa was at and it is at 96, does this mean i should aim for 48 when i put the 2 bar map sensor in? also, could cold weather cause the map kpa to be lower?

thanks for your help!

Mike

[MN C5]

That will work so will 50kpa. Auto tune will compensate for the difference.

[WicketMike]

Picked up the car today,

I had to take C6301 down to 90 to get it to read 50kpa with just the ignition turned on, stock is 94.

that sensor you said you used (16040749) is a 3bar sensor, did you type 2bar by mistake?
The sensor i went with was 12580698

I should be able to start AutoVE tommorow.

thanks for your help

Mike

[MN C5]

Could be, I'm using a two bar. I might have posted the wrong part # I'll have to check.

[WicketMike]

well i started to tune today after it stopped raining :-( and i cant get the idle AFR to lean out at all, its at 10.8 and wont change. i leaned it out by 25% and still reads 10.8. I tried going into the bidirectional and command it and it still wouldnt change

[MN C5]

how are you leaning it out? Are you tweaking the VE table or the injector flow rate? Take a bigger wack at it. And what KPA is showing up at idle?

[WicketMike]

how are you leaning it out? Are you tweaking the VE table or the injector flow rate? Take a bigger wack at it. And what KPA is showing up at idle?

The IFR table i setup using the spreadsheet and left it alone, now im doing the AutoVE and tweaking the VE tables. KPA at idle is 20.

I keeps saying to lean out 20KPA at 800 rpm by 25% everytime, ive done it twice and no changes.

thanks

Mike

[turboberserker]

12580698 is the 2 bar sensor.

Mike what is your AFR target at 20KPA and 800rpm? What size injectors?

[WicketMike]

12580698 is the 2 bar sensor.

Mike what is your AFR target at 20KPA and 800rpm? What size injectors?


the target is 14.17. and im using 42lb injectors.

I figured out why, but dont know if there is much i can do while its in SDOL because it refers to the backupVE table on my 98'.

the 20kpa is set low but the 30kpa is set really high because it needs the fuel. So i believe its blending the 20kpa and 30kpa at idle.

I leaned it out at the 30kpa and it started to look ok, but now the car wouldnt move because it couldnt get any fuel from the 30kpa.

Maybe i should make the 40kpa really rich to make up for 30kpa being lean to help out 20kpa? did that make sense? and would that work

thanks

[MN C5]

Your in uncharted territory with a 98 computer...Keep track of what you find.. I think you'll have a following if you get it figured out:muahaha:

[WicketMike]

Your in uncharted territory with a 98 computer...Keep track of what you find.. I think you'll have a following if you get it figured out:muahaha:

do you think if i lower the C6301 alittle bit more, to get the idle around 15-17kpa, do you think it would then read only the 20kpa and not blend with the 30kpa?

[MN C5]

You can move the key on reading around so your idling in a lower KPA column.

[WicketMike]

You can move the key on reading around so your idling in a lower KPA column.

the key? you mean C6301 right?


also, does anybody know of a way to get it to read the mainVE table instead of falling to the backupVE ?

thanks

[WicketMike]

I had used this spreadsheet to tune my Injector Pulse Width table B3701
http://ls1edit.slowcar.net/injectoroffset.xls

When i would change the table back to stock the car wouldnt even idle because it was so lean, so i thought maybe if i richen up the VE tables it might work. So i had to richen those idle areas by double. Now my idle is at 12.4, better then 10.8. So im going to try and lean it out some more. I also noticed that im going to have to richen up the rest of the VE tables by 15-30% just because i changed the B3701 table back to stock.

Should i use that spreadsheet or just keep that table stock?

My IFR table is tuned correclty by using the other spreadsheet and i havent touched that during tuning.

[oztracktuning]

I did a log on a Forced Induction car today that was tuned with Vcmsuite. When logging its MAP only went as high as 105 and all values below it seemed to be normal values at that rpm and speed etc.

Did i use the wrong pid?

The car has heaps of power - logged up to 1.36g/cylinder at 6000rpm

[kbracing96]

I did a log on a Forced Induction car today that was tuned with Vcmsuite. When logging its MAP only went as high as 105 and all values below it seemed to be normal values at that rpm and speed etc.

Did i use the wrong pid?

The car has heaps of power - logged up to 1.36g/cylinder at 6000rpm

I the car probable just has the stock 1 bar MAP. 105 kPa is all it will read. You need to put a 2 or 3 bar MAP on it to read boost. Most likely it's using PE for fuel enrichment while in boost.

[oztracktuning]

The owner said it had a 2 bar map sensor installed. Its been tuned with VCM Suite. So does that mean it cant be read and edited by EFIlive??

Does anyone know what i will need to do to use our system to tune the car? Will it be editable or will in need a full reflash?

[WicketMike]

sounds like you would have to go to a custom O.S. or cut it in half like MNC5 explained

[WicketMike]

Ive been trying to tune this for a few weeks now and ive ran into a few things. Hope you guys can help me.

1. P0103 code for the MAF is showing in the DTC's. The SES light doesnt come on but the code is in the history and when i clear it, it pops backup right away. Is this giving me problems trying to tune in AutoVE? and how can i get it to now report?

2. When i returned to closed loop SD, when i would let off the gas it would go so lean that the wideband wouldnt read it, but when im in open loop SD, it would be very rich. any ideas?

3. When its in SDOL it reads the backup VE table, correct? does it only read the backup or blend with the main? when its in SDCL which table does it read?

thanks

[MN C5]

Post some logs if you can

[SinisterSS]

1. What value do you have in C2903? If still stock, you may be exceeding the Hz value and tripping the DTC.
2. If DFCO is active in CL, it will shut off the fuel injectors at closed throttle and cause the lean ("pure" air) condition.
3. 98's - I feel for ya.

[WicketMike]

I have some logs but on my laptop, ill see if i can move some over, i have ALOT of them :-)

C2903 i took down, i dont remember the number, but i cut it down enough to get the car to get the same reading with only the ignition on as before the 2 bar.

I followed the AutoVE to return to CL, would that still have DFCO active?

ughhhh 98's :-( 2 of them

what about the P0103 code for the maf? should it even be reporting?

thanks

[SinisterSS]

For C2903, review the MAF frequency in the log files and see if it exceeds the value in the table.

Two ways to check DFCO - reviewing the respective table values in the calibration and in a log, the commanded AFR will go lean, injector duty cycle & pulse width will drop, etc.

[WicketMike]

Im not using the MAF, im in SD. that wouldnt come into play then right?

thanks

[MN C5]

Off Topic, how does that thing run out?...

[DrX]

1. P0103 code for the MAF is showing in the DTC's. The SES light doesnt come on but the code is in the history and when i clear it, it pops backup right away. Is this giving me problems trying to tune in AutoVE? and how can i get it to now report?

thanks

You must have a MAF code set in order to get into SD. Won't run at all without the MAF if you set the code to not reported.

[WicketMike]

I am finally getting my car back this weekend. Its been in the shop for almost 2 months getting an oil leak in the turbo fixed.

When i did have the car for a week, i was trying to tune it with AutoVE and just couldnt get it right in the lower areas. My white T/A which is n/a i have in SD mode and it runs perfect, but this turbo on the gold t/a, i just cant get it right.

So i am thinking about putting the maf back in and tuning it with that.
My question is, i have the 2 bar map sensor in there. Do i have to change anything so the 2 bar map will work if i dont go SD mode?
do i still have to change C6301 ?? or should leave that at stock and the 2 bar map will be ok while using the maf?

thanks!

[WicketMike]

ttttt

[bK]

I did a log on a Forced Induction car today that was tuned with Vcmsuite. When logging its MAP only went as high as 105 and all values below it seemed to be normal values at that rpm and speed etc.

Did i use the wrong pid?

The car has heaps of power - logged up to 1.36g/cylinder at 6000rpm

I did the same thing last night with a friends car, logging SAE.MAP it only recorded 105kPa. I recorded GM.MAP Voltage which was 2.5V and recorded MAP of 105kPa. The voltage peaked at 4.0V during a logged run but stayed at 105kPa

It's a 2bar MAP sensor, the car was programmed with HP Tuners with Custom O.S.

[oztracktuning]

Can someone make comment on this last post??

[Tordne]

Shouln't SAE.MAP be logged, not GM.MAP?

[bK]

Shouln't SAE.MAP be logged, not GM.MAP?

I've logged both, i hope this screenshot will give you a better idea, you can see SAE.MAP stops at 105kPa but the GM.MAP Voltage keeps climbing up.
http://members.iinet.net.au/%7Ebkujawski/efilive/cv8map.png

[bK]

I found the answer in all places in the "Custom OS Upgrade Tutorial.pdf"


Configuring a 2 or 3-bar MAP sensor
When the key is on but the engine is not running, the MAP sensor reads the barometric air pressure, usually 101kPa (14.7psi). When tuning in high altitude areas it is worthwhile reading the MAP values (using EFILive’s Scan Tool) at key-on with the standard 1-bar sensor to obtain the barometric pressure at the current altitude.
After fitting your 2 or 3-bar MAP sensor, you must rescale the MAP sensor.
Engine Diagnostics->MAP->Parameters
• {C6301} MAP Sensor Scaler: 2-bar sensor: 190 3-bar sensor: 288
These values will get the MAP scaler’s value close to what it needs to be, you will then need to adjust it (by small amounts) until the MAP sensor reads the same barometric pressure that your standard 1-bar sensor was reading at key-on, engine-off.
Logging boost levels in the Scan Tool must be performed with the PID ‘SAE.MAP’.