ADAPTS procedure

[scottcmb]

Hey guys whats the procedure when using Ädaptïve reset" Ädaptive Preset""Fast Ädaptive Reset" and "Fast Adaptive Learn"?
I used one of them the other day then had no drive at all in Drive and reverse!!..... had to reflash the trans tune back in to get the car mobile again (whew)
Cheers Scotty

[scottcmb]

48 views and no answers from the guru's.......geez i didnt think it was that secret squirrel!!!....lol

[swingtan]

I have mainly done T42 autos. In them, I just do a reset and then cycle through P-R-N-D back and forth a few times before driving I've heard of the lack of gears issue but never experienced it.

Simon.

[GMPX]

Scotty, I haven't heard of loss of drive after doing an adapts reset, sorry.

[Rhino79]

Scotty, I experienced the same thing. I think it is normal for this to happen from what i've read. I think letting it set a while will allow the tcm to function properly again. I don't know why, but thats what I have read. I have not verified it as I simply reflashed as you did. I bet pulling the tcm fuses would also work rather than a reflash.

[GMPX]

You could also do the 'Self Clean' procedure in the scan tool, that takes about a minute, but it also resets and relearns lots of things.

[Dieselman]

Scotty, I experienced the same thing. I think it is normal for this to happen from what i've read. I think letting it set a while will allow the tcm to function properly again. I don't know why, but thats what I have read. I have not verified it as I simply reflashed as you did. I bet pulling the tcm fuses would also work rather than a reflash.

I also did the fast adapts reset and last all gears. Did a reflash and all good again. Been too scared to touch it since :confused:

I did do the Self Clean procedure and it all worked ok - seems to shift better anyway

[Longslyde]

Hey guys whats the procedure when using Ädaptïve reset" Ädaptive Preset""Fast Ädaptive Reset" and "Fast Adaptive Learn"?
I used one of them the other day then had no drive at all in Drive and reverse!!..... had to reflash the trans tune back in to get the car mobile again (whew)
Cheers Scotty

LOL! I had the same scare when starting to play with the tuning in the 6l80E. the reason you didn't have any gears is because you must have activated Fast Learn and did not let it complete. You hit "fast learn" in DVT then hold the brake and put to drive. The Idle will raise up and start going through the gears to learn the adapts faster than doing a driving session. The vehicle will not move but you will feel it shifting gears in the transmission. It will take about a minute if all is working correctly then the idle will drop back down. After that happens, you go back to park and shut the vehicle down and wait 30 seconds to a minute then when you restart, it will act normal again. Hopefully that helps...:) :rockon:

[Dieselman]

Thanks for the info Longslyde :cheers:

I will try it again one day and see what happens

[Longslyde]

No problem. I've been modding my trans for some time now. Learned alot! :sneaky: I wish EFI Live would get the T43 fully opened up. I gotta believe there are charts we are missing for temperature adapts and base timings. I've got a 2400 stall converter on a fully modded transmission with a supercharged 6.2L and that opens up a whole new set of programming problems so I've had my fair share of experience on this tranny. Glad I could help! :rockon:

[GMPX]

I wish EFI Live would get the T43 fully opened up.
You aren't alone here.....LINK (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?12079-6L80-TM-removal)

[scottcmb]

Thanks for that guys its been really appreciated!!.......Now here is the next question. When i had that "no drive" on my modded tune that i mentioned before ( i had been running around on this modded tune for a couple of weeks and just completed the self clean and hit adapts reset) so i reflashed the standard tune back in and all was well with it going again, i reflashed the modified trans tune back in ( this tune made the car shift changes hard and quick at wide open throttle and was really fantastic!!)...... now the changes are really slow with slipping on this modded tune.......what have i done wrong or what do i need to do to get it back to the way the modded trans tune drove?

Thanks for your knowledge guys....regards Scotty

[Longslyde]

if you just installed mod tune, it may have not adjusted to the changes. Flashing the tune will not reset any learning that has taken place. This will lead you to "chasing your tail" sort of speak. Try this in DVT in EXACTLY this order with engine running:
Fast reset
Adapts reset
Adapts preset
then finally hit the fast learn. Right after you hit that button, apply the brake and shift to drive and stay on brake for the duration of this procedure. Idle will raise to approx 1000 RPMs but will not move. The transmission is going to go through all gear shifts and fast learn the adapts needed for correct shift times. When the vehicle goes back to idle, place it back to park ansd shut the ignition totally off. Wait at least 30 seconds to 1 minute before restart otherwise is will still be in learn mode. This procedure should get you back to what the mod tune will be. It may take some to get really fine tuned.
FYI, if for some reason the fast learn procedure cannot coplete and does not go back to idle after you feel the shifting stop in the transmission, say after 3 minutes, don't panic.:rockon: Just turn tbe vehicle off and wait a minute or 2 and it will reset. Hope it works well for you!

[scottcmb]

Thanks Longslyde...... I did the fast learn and whilst it was doing this it was changing gears like you said........but every time it went back to idle the engine just stopped and didnt know whether it was finished........i turn the key off and left it for three minutes but when i started the car again there was still no drive......i did the fast learn again and it was doing its thing but would get to a stage where it would go back to idle and engine would stop again........both with standard tune and modded tune.......and same result go to restart it and still no drive..........any clues?
cheers Scotty

[Longslyde]

When the engine drops back to idle, the procedure is finished and you can put it to park and shut down vehicle. When you say the engine "stopped", do you mean it died? or just went back to idle? If it went back to idle, that would be normal. What really needs to happen when you shut the vehicle down (ignition totally off), is that the ECM has to shutdown. The ecm stays live on most vehicles for a set period of time, which on my E38 can be set although I cannot remember what parameter that is off hand. It sounds like your ECM has not shut down for some reason, which would normally release it from learn mode.
Were you still connected to the laptop with DVT activated? If so, this may keep the Ecm and tcm alive. Try disabling DVT in the laptop and "Disconnect" so there is no connection to the vehicle as soon it drops back to idle. Then shut vehicle down and wait a few minutes. I never had an issue when doing it this way but maybe it varies from vehicle to vehicle. Good Luck!

[scottcmb]

The program had it sitting at 1000rpm at the end of cycling through all the gears etc etc, and it seemed to be going back to idle like you said it would, but instead of sitting back at idle the engine would just stop.

[Longslyde]

Hmmm, that's a new one to me. :confused: But it does sound like the fast learn did complete. If you have a custom tune there might need to be an adjustment to the base idle but if this is the only time that it does this, I wouldn't mess with it. I know when mine goes back to idle, it lays at about 500 rpm which is lower than it does in normal mode.

But the problem now is that after leaving it sit with ignition off it does not self-reset? Do you know if the ecm shut down or not after a minute or 2? I guess one way to check is to see if you can connect back into the ecm WITHOUT TURNING THE KEY BACK ON after leaving it sit. If you can, the ecm and tcm are still live, in which case it did not cancel fast learn and you would not have gearing back. If you cannot connect, then it should have reset and all should be normal again. Hope that helps you get through the process, otherwise I do not know why it is not resetting after shutdown.

Remember, worst case scenario, Fast Adapt Learn is not a "necessary" procedure, so you do not NEED to do it. But it helps shorten the learn time needed to feel what the tune intended. the vehicle will learn, it will just take longer to do so. When changing the tune, always do an adapts reset, fast reset, and adapts preset. Don't hit fast learn if you don't want it to go through that process. all should work out fine in the end if the tune is right. Take care!

[scottcmb]

Thanks Longslyde, i will check to see if its resetting. Just for informations sake, this problem of the engine stopping happens with the stock tune aswell, which was a test i did to see if it was a problem with the modded tune only!!.....but no it does it with both tunes.
I know i dont have to do "Fast Learn" and can do it the slow way.......but im just the curious type that thinks that if the option is there and is not working properly like normal, i like to work out why and pass on the conclusions for everybody else to know. Maybe as a thought that we dont have enough options to select or adjust in V7.5 DVT when using "Fast Learn"?....just a thought
Cheers Scotty

[Longslyde]

Maybe as a thought that we dont have enough options to select or adjust in V7.5 DVT when using "Fast Learn"?....just a thought
Cheers Scotty

We do need to have a pid for "Fast Learn Status" available in the scan tool to monitor when to shift the vehicle from D to R to complete the procedure completely. Hopefully we see that in future updates as well.

[Redline Motorsports]

I don't see in the DVT tab anything that has to do with a trans relearn...

On another note.....when using a TECH2 its not uncommon that the engine just stalls after a FAST ADAPT Relearn process...

[ScarabEpic22]

Howard, might be a stupid question, but are you selecting the T42/T43 in the DVT window? They're there on my DVT tab...

[Longslyde]

Make sure after you are connected, that you "activate" DVT with the correct controller. If it wasn't showing up before, it should then.

[scottcmb]

Went to do a fast learn yesterday and when it started all it did was increase the idle rpm as normal and that was it........didnt go through its gear changing sequence for pressure learning.....all it did was sit at high idle and nothing else....then after about 3 minutes it would drop the idle back and engine would stall..........and before you ask...yes it was in drive and DVT is connected and activated..........tried it three times and same result.....would just increase the idle and nothing else..................last time i did a fast learn that was working properly was before all the new updates......i wonder if that has anything to do with it?.....is anyone else getting this same problem since the new updates?.....or is yours working correctly?

Cheers Scotty

[GMPX]

DVT's haven't been touched for a long time.

[Redline Motorsports]

Howard, might be a stupid question, but are you selecting the T42/T43 in the DVT window? They're there on my DVT tab...

Ah crap.......I think it was on E67!

Was flipping cals from ECM and TCM...

Never a stupid questions.....I'm just thinking to deep into these torque models trying to get this ZL to shift properly...

Thanks!

[ScarabEpic22]

Ah crap.......I think it was on E67!

Was flipping cals from ECM and TCM...

Never a stupid questions.....I'm just thinking to deep into these torque models trying to get this ZL to shift properly...

Thanks!

Keep posting your results, Im working on my TBSS trans now but am staying away from the Torque Model stuff for a little bit. Ive made that mistake trying to do something on the ECM, but I was using DVTs on the TCM!

[swingtan]

I did the T43 in the V6 Omega Sportwagon on the week end. I just did the Adapts reset, then let it idles and moved through the gears, I didn't select the "preset" options at all. Then I just drove it as per normal and the shifts were spot on ( chirps 2nd gear at WOT with full torque management enabled ). I've tried the "preset" option before and found that it seems to use settings that suit the default transmission calibration. So now I just clear the adapts and let it relearn from scratch. I've not had the box full of neutrals" issue doing this.

I also have to say, that "torque model" is by far the best table/s to improve shifts. I'd probably not alter the normal shift pressures in the TCM and just tweak the torque model and shift times. If I couldn't get what I wanted without having to change the torque model too much ( maybe 15% ), then I'd work on the shift pressures.

Simon.

[GMPX]

I did the T43 in the V6 Omega Sportwagon on the week end. I just did the Adapts reset, then let it idles and moved through the gears, I didn't select the "preset" options at all. Then I just drove it as per normal and the shifts were spot on ( chirps 2nd gear at WOT with full torque management enabled ).
I think you've been smoking something Simon :rotflmao:

[Redline Motorsports]

Whats the trick with doing a Fast Adapt relearn with this 2012 T43....

Shows temps not in range but it can't be after a few hard blasts in the heat....

[Boost]

I'm having some trouble with a T43 in a new truck that I flashed back to the factory cal and it still continues to "shift bad" & shudder - like it did on the less than optimal modified TCM tune. :confused:

I am trying to get a hold of another stock cal. for the TCM just in case this one somehow got corrupted of modified. The other possibility could be that the trans. got physically damaged during the couple days it was was driven with the shift speeds too fast (0.2 seconds) and some or the Torque Reduction removed / pressures slightly raised.

I just personally hoped that was unlikely since the truck is brand new with a couple hundred miles and bone stock. My plan is to try to re-flash it with a known good stock cal and then try to perform all of the reset procedures described here.

:nixweiss:

edit: found another stock file on T.F.D., will try and report. Thanks, wish me luck

[Longslyde]

Heya Guys,
Sorry been out for some time, but since this is a sticky, I thought I would elaborate on my experience with the Fast Learn procedure and when it is best to use it...

Since this option has been out for a while now, I'm sure most have at least tried the procedure and many have had different level of luck with it. So rather than totally go through the steps of the procedure, which have been stated in earlier posts, I'll just explain what is happening during this procedure and what the tranny is actually looking for...

On a stock vehicle (engine tuned spot-on, transmission all stock), the procedure works quite well. Modified transmissions or cammed engines will experience varying results, more on the modified scenarios later...

Do all resets for transmission, then hit trans preset before initiating the learn process. By hitting the trans preset, you are actually telling the transmission to start learning from the oncoming and off going clutch pressure settings as well as the clutch volumes you have in your tune. I know it is common practice by some to set the Volumes higher or lower to make the transmission shift correctly, when actually, in a perfect setting, this is the exact measurement in cc's it takes to fill the clutch. Ideally this will only adapt as clutches wear. So being very close in this area will make a HUGE difference in how quick you arrive at the perfect tune. Some of the things that may indicate you are off in the volumes would be an extremely hard shift executing at a much faster time than you have set for shift (in this case the volume is too high), or the trans will flare hard on initial shift, usually as an initial hit then release flare (may indicate the volume is too low). The TCM is only as smart as the programming, so if you have 50 cc's set for your 5-6 shift, and the clutch pack actually needs 60, the TCM stops at what it thinks to be 50 cc's. Therefore the pack is not filled and you get a big flare that it will compensate for eventually IF you are close enough. If you are too far off, it may never totally figure it out and it may even think the clutches are totally worn out.

Once fast learn is initiated (Stock Vehicle), TRANSMISSION MUST BE ABOVE 150 degrees min and Clutch Purge must be enabled for this procedure. . The scanner will ask you to put the vehicle in D. Hold brake pedal for duration of the process or it will abort. The first thing the transmission wil do is purge the clutches so no air is present. once that is completed, it will sytematically apply the volume and pressure to each clutch pack. After the pressure is applied, the TCM will slowly ramp down pressure until it sees a release of the clutch pack allowing it to spin again. If you listen very carefully you can hear it in the transmission when it happens. It will do this for each gear so it can memorize the pressures for each shift, to engage and disengage each gear. Only in a very few instances did the TCM ask me to select Reverse. So if it does not ask you, don't feel it didn't do what it was supposed to. Once the TCM is done, it will show "completed" and the vehicle will drop to a low idle.

Cammed vehicles and tuned engines may experience the vehicle dying when the procedure is completed. This is normal. This is due to the air signal dropping to low for the ECM to catch the throttle drop. Keep in mind, the idle setting after Fast learn completes is approx 500 RPM. If you can't idle you cammed engine this low in the first place, it will surely die when the fast learn completes. It is a default idle rpm set by the system after this procedure is completed. Normal. Shut the ignition off and wait 3-5 minutes before attempting to restart so the ECM and TCM reset or will will still not have forward or reverse gears. If you restart and it doesn't go into drive, you did not wait long enough.

Modified transmissions cause another set of anomalies. Modified clutch packs, alto red materials, or clearence issues will not play well with Fast-Learn. So, let's say you just got done with a modified transmission re-learn and took the vehicle out on it's maiden test drive. Shift flares? Bang Shifts? Slipping clutches? Anything sound familiar? it sure did to me! lol. Ok so what went wrong? The first thing I thought was "My tune is waaaaay off!". This may not be the case and I learned that the hard way. Maybe this info will save some heartache for others....
I was doing a fast learn on a modified transmission and finally figured it out. The TCM applies pressure to each clutch pack and slowly releases pressure until slip is achieved. This is how the TCM learns what the lowest pressure is needed to keep the clutch "engaged". BUT, with Alto Reds, or other materials for that matter, or even added clutch plates, the friction coeff is much higher. The TCM will have to drop to a lower pressure than what is really needed in real world operation and "ADAPTS" itself to that setting. So when you drive the vehicle, the TCM "thinks" it knows what it should be applying the oncoming and offgoing pressures at, but transmission slips, flares, bang shifts, etc. IF your tune was indeed correct in the first place, it may figure it out and then clear up some if not all the way. It is VERY easy for this scenario to cause you to "chase your tail" by making you constantly change you tune in an attempt to fix the tranny shifts.

The same thing is true for stall converters. Even in a stock transmission. The idle speed that is raised during a relearn may not be enough to apply the correct torque to the clutch packs. The TCM is looking for the exact pressure that slip is achieved but cannot see it happening. The TCM then thinks that lower pressure is needed to hold the clutches engaged and again, you feel slips, shift bangs, and generally sloppy shift times. This is all true IF THE RELEARN PROCESS ACTUALLY COMPLETES WITH A STALL CONVERTER! Many will find that the process will consistently fail and this is due to the fact that TCM did not see proper slip happening when it thought it was going to and thinks there is a problem. It aborts and says "failed".

So what the moral of the story? Well, if you have a stock transmission, the fast learn procedure is a godsend. If your tune is correct, you will be amazed at how well the transmission works the first drive out of the garage. If you change things in your tune for a stock transmission, especially clutch volumes (which you shouldn't ever have to do on stock) or oncoming/offgoing pressures, ALWAYS DO A RESET THEN FAST LEARN. It is not so much needed if you change your shift timings slightly, that will adjust as you drive a few miles of stop and go. If shift timing is all you change, a relearn is not necessary.
If you have a modified transmission, or a stall converter, your experience may not always be a good one. Welcome to the world of performance tuning lol! You are now required to program that tune correctly yourself. I would say to try a fast learn once to see how it turns out on your particular setup, because it "may" work fine. But if you have any mod work done to your tranny or stall, and it does fail the process, it is normal. There is not something necessarily wrong with the tranny, it just means that the TCM doesn't recognize what you have done since it is looking for "stock" results.

The trans reset and preset features are still very handy. If you are one that had the fast learn fail, and you are changing things in your tune, it is still very helpful to use the reset feature and then hit the trans preset but then don't do a fast learn. What you are acomplishishing by doing this is you are forcing the transmission to use YOUR exact tune setting to operate the transmission. If you were lucky enough to hit everything spot on in the tune, it will work correctly immediately. You will see just how good your tune is the first time it goes through the gears. If it felt good the first time through the gears, that means you tuned it well and it will stay pretty close as long as your timings are set correctly for the shift pressures you programmed. Keep in mind that if you set agressive shift pressures that would require a short shift time, but you have a longer shift time in your tune, the TCM will start changing the pressures to adapt to your tune's specified timings. This is why some experience a nice firm shift on initial drive but then the shifts get softer and sloppier. This is why some disable adapts to keep that initial feel but that is really just masking a problem in the tune and it could be a minor one at that. If it shift flares, bangs, or slips immediately through the first set of shifts, you are off in the tune. Adapts will start taking effect after the first shift of each gear so the TCM will try to correct what you have wrong. If you are close enough, it will figure it out. Otherwise, tune changes will be required. One thing I have tried with pretty good sucess is to turn of adapts for the tuning procedure, this will keep the TCM from performing corrective changes to your tune. This can be a bad thing if you are far off from the perfect tune!! BE CAREFUL! Damage can and will happen if problems are ignored. Adapts can be your best friend! This TCM is smart enough to help your fine tune your transmission but it's like having too many "cooks in the kitchen" so to speak. You may be trying to change the same things that the TCM is trying to correct. Welcome to the insanity loop! That is the main reason I feel this transmission is so frustrating to most when they attempt to refine it.

Bottom line is the relearn is there solely to learn the oncoming and offgoing pressures. It will then adapt from there to reach your tune specified upshift timing goals, shift intertias, and pressures need to make that all happen as you drive.

I hope this helps explain a little of whats going on and why your experiences are so varied from one tranny to another.

[Boost]

Thank you for the info Longslyde!

[Dieselman]

Big thanks from me too. Excellent work !!

[T2000]

Great info - thanks for sharing :)