Stock-fueled trucks step on in...

[TexasCummins]

This question is for those with a stock fuel system, i.e. stock lift pump, filter, CP3 and injectors. What is the max fuel rate you're seeing? Mine is maxing out around 134mm3. Another question is how much power are y'all getting out of it as well? I'm shooting for 500hp max and the only mods I have are an AFE intake, S&B elbow and unrestricted exhaust.

[2007 5.9]

One of my test trucks was running a air dog fuel system, max was 471hp at 160mm3.

[DODGE74]

Les, is there any benifit in changing the mm3 table to160 rather than 145?

[GMPX]

Practically speaking (the tuners might correct me here), but I don't think there is any benefit, remember that commanded fuel table is being used to reference back in to the pulse table. If you are wanting some control over the pulse time at higher than normal commanded mm3 then you could up the axis on the pulse table to 160mm3 so you have some control on the pulse time up there.

[2007 5.9]

Havent found one yet...the ECM will interpolate the mm3 values from the last known value up to the max.

The only time I alter the rpm or mm3 axis is when I am trying to control fueling precicely or when I am fueling over 4000rpms like in my puller. Ilike to control mm3 over 3500rpm in smaller incriments up to the 4700rpm launch...

In short though....leaving the max mm3 on the tables set to 145mm3 doesnt seem to be a problem.

Where you will run into a problem is if your limiters are set to 145mm3 and not higher...I have the limiters on all my truck set at 200mm3 for their max but still scale them to be used for doing their job at6 lower rpm, boost etc areas...they will never get there, but I know that in the upper fueling areas, those limiters will not factor in at all.

[DODGE74]

Practically speaking (the tuners might correct me here), but I don't think there is any benefit, remember that commanded fuel table is being used to reference back in to the pulse table. If you are wanting some control over the pulse time at higher than normal commanded mm3 then you could up the axis on the pulse table to 160mm3 so you have some control on the pulse time up there.


Havent found one yet...the ECM will interpolate the mm3 values from the last known value up to the max.

The only time I alter the rpm or mm3 axis is when I am trying to control fueling precicely or when I am fueling over 4000rpms like in my puller. Ilike to control mm3 over 3500rpm in smaller incriments up to the 4700rpm launch...

In short though....leaving the max mm3 on the tables set to 145mm3 doesnt seem to be a problem.

Where you will run into a problem is if your limiters are set to 145mm3 and not higher...I have the limiters on all my truck set at 200mm3 for their max but still scale them to be used for doing their job at6 lower rpm, boost etc areas...they will never get there, but I know that in the upper fueling areas, those limiters will not factor in at all.


I thought that was the reason, giving you a broader area to control.

Thank you guys.

[FUBAR]

Where you will run into a problem is if your limiters are set to 145mm3 and not higher...I have the limiters on all my truck set at 200mm3 for their max but still scale them to be used for doing their job at6 lower rpm, boost etc areas...they will never get there, but I know that in the upper fueling areas, those limiters will not factor in at all.

If I know my truck will show 160mm3 on the log, but the last value in my pulse table mm3 axis is 145mm3, why would it matter to max the limiters out to 200mm3 like you say? I the last point it leaves off at the pulse table is 145mm3, you're already full fueling you max uS. Now I DO understand if you have a pulling truck or one where you're hitting high RPM's, that you would want to max out the mm3 limiters and rescale your pulse table for say, 145mm3, 150mm3, 155mm3, 160mm3, etc..etc. More fine control over fueling where you're running at. I'm just trying to understand more for street rods and DD'ers.

Thanks,

-Andrew

[mstordahl]

My truck is stock motor, fuel and air. All I have is a trans and intake/exhaust.

I put down 473 last fall with just those and efi, with basically no smoke to boot and good manners.

My truck fuels to 150mm3 on command in all my logs without any worries, has since day one.

I did try some playing around with increasing the mm3 but it didnt change anything for me better than just changing pulse width.

[olboyowl]

My truck is stock motor, fuel and air. All I have is a trans and intake/exhaust.

I put down 473 last fall with just those and efi, with basically no smoke to boot and good manners.

My truck fuels to 150mm3 on command in all my logs without any worries, has since day one.

I did try some playing around with increasing the mm3 but it didnt change anything for me better than just changing pulse width.

i've got pretty much the same results minus the dyno #'s.

[mstordahl]

It is definately seeming to be truck to truck on the fueling issues... mine fuels like a mother till the limiter no matter where I set it.

[2007 5.9]

It is definately seeming to be truck to truck on the fueling issues... mine fuels like a mother till the limiter no matter where I set it.


Would you like one of us BETA testers to look at it and maybe see something your not seeing??

Not that we are experts but sometimes another set of eyes can pay dividends....

[DODGE74]

Would you like one of us BETA testers to look at it and maybe see something your not seeing??

Not that we are experts but sometimes another set of eyes can pay dividends....

So true....

Nice offer Les.

[TexasCummins]

I've bumped up my top end duration ~30% and it pulls extremely hard. I have not logged a run with that though, but the 134mm3 was with stock duration so would the Scan program show an increase in commanded fuel or still show 134mm3?

[dansdieselp]

We put down 483hp and 1,045ftlbs on a Superflow with just a AirDog 165, clutch and 5" exhaust.

[TexasCummins]

Thanks for the information so far guys, my end goal is 500hp.

[dansdieselp]

Turbo upgrade makes a big difference.

[mstordahl]

Would you like one of us BETA testers to look at it and maybe see something your not seeing??

Not that we are experts but sometimes another set of eyes can pay dividends....

Sorry, I should have been more specific. What I meant is that it is seeming to me that some do it and others are fine. My truck is great, and fuels to wherever I set the limiter. I do not have a problem getting it to fuel past 3500 at all, not that I want to but it is there.

Thanks for the offer though! You beta testers are sure helpfull and open, it really makes this a much easier battle to take in.

[anarchydiesel]

Keep in mind that the mm3 value is not solely what determines your fueling rate. The ECM uses the mm3 rate to determine an actual injector duration (main Injection table). If your truck is only fueling 134 mm3 then it is leaving some fuel on the table unless you have the same duration numbers from 130mm3 to 140mm3 cells on the main duration table. Regardless, if you have your pedal position tables set at 140 or 145 at 100% throttle then the truck is hitting a limiter that is holding it back. Like Les said it may be worthwhile to send the tune file to one of us Beta Testers to look at and see what you are actually commanding.

[TexasCummins]

Turbo upgrade makes a big difference.

That's next on my list due to temps, but I'm deciding on which one. So many different choices available...

[TexasCummins]

I'm looking at the following turbos, any input would be great.

HTT HTB2/Street Stock 62 w/ 12cm exhaust housing
II Silver Bullet 62 w/ 14cm exhaust housing

Could I run a Silver Bullet 64 with more aggressive tuning and have stock reaction and boost times? Then again I don't know how aggressive my tuning is since I'm still on the HE351CW and can build ~15psi before 2,000rpm, more or less depending on my acceleration.

[dansdieselp]

You looking at twins or single?

[DODGE74]

Honestly, I dont like either one of those turbos.

[TexasCummins]

Going to get a single and preferably one that bolts right up to the stock configuration, and I don't tow.

[dansdieselp]

We've had good luck with a 63/68 .83ar turbo and a better exhaust manifold. Spools awesome and supports 600hp or so.

[TexasCummins]

What is the consensus on Stainless Diesel and Bullseye Power turbos? I've heard some good things about the BatMoWheels.

[TexasCummins]

Nevermind about Bullseye, I see Stainless stocks their turbos. Any input on an S362/68 with a BatMoWheel, 14cm wastegated housing and .80ar? Or any other ideas on good streetable turbos that will keep my top end temps reasonable?

[dansdieselp]

We sell Engineered Diesel Turbos. I don't believe in the Batmo wheels. We ran the 63/68 with stock injectors and made 558hp and 1,119ftlbs. It was a nice street turbo and towed well.

[FUBAR]

I'm about to install a Borg Warner S363 .88ar (T4 63/68/14-16cm) and a PDI 2nd gen T4 manifold.

As of now my truck is pretty much stock save for a few things. Built trans, mechanical lift pump, intake, 2nd gen T3 manifold, 5" exhaust.

I'll be installing the T4 manifold turbo combo before I install my 45% (90ish hp nozzles) and Arson 3 to get a good comparison.

I'm running SilverBullet's tuning right now too. Which is friggin' incredible with my built trans!!! I went to install my built trans and told Les I would like to have a good tune to try the trans before I left the shop and he appropriately sent me a "TransTester" tune...and good lord was it one! Made my trans builder raise his brow when he went to test stop-WOT conditions. "Wow, no smoke."

Anyhow, hopefully shortly I'll have some results of slapping a good manifold/turbo on a stock fueled truck and then some more with the minimal fueling upgrades.

-Andrew

[TexasCummins]

Dan I sent an email out to Chris at ED on Friday but I suppose they're off for the weekend. Would you mind PMing me a quote on that 63/68 with the specs?

[dansdieselp]

Sure can. Give me about half hour.

[skneeland]

I'm about to install a Borg Warner S363 .88ar (T4 63/68/14-16cm) and a PDI 2nd gen T4 manifold. -Andrew

i have that same turbo sitting on my floor. im going to replace my HE351cw with it on my 06 and put it on top of the S475. im leaning towards a steedspeed stainless manifold with the built in 44mm EWG flange though

http://www.steedspeed.com/t3_and_t4_cummins_diesel_manifold

[2007 5.9]

The BW 63/68/.88 T-4 that Andrew is going to use, I have recommended to several customers with GREAT results.

It spools very fast, very responsive (with proper tuning), and will support 630-645hp with reasonable egts.

Plus it's 1/3 the price of one from a major turbo outfit.

Generally the cost comes out to be...$500 for T-4 manifold, $750 for turbo, and approx $250 for misc things (downpipe mods etc)

But for $1250-$1500 you essentially get the BD Killer B but without BD ever touching it.

I don't plan on ever running brand name turbos anymore. I've ran almost everything under the sun on my truck...I tried a off the shelf BW....and have been all smiles ever since.

Now that's all I recommend to my customers. With a proper tune and reasonable expectations, you don't need to be running a T-3 wastegated turbo with super tight exhaust housings.

Tune it so the turbo lights fast, and have fun in top.

All you get when you tighten up the housings, is muffled top end from being choked out.

[dansdieselp]

PM sent

[FUBAR]

I'm about to install a Borg Warner S363 .88ar (T4 63/68/14-16cm) and a PDI 2nd gen T4 manifold.

Did it. How do I like it? Friggin' LOVE it! How's the spool with stock stix and an Arson 3 minus the FCA? (running stock FCA due to obtaining a bad one) Quick! Really impressed. Pushing a 3100 pulse time I do good to reach 1400* by 100+mph. I just can't wait to get my modded FCA back and light that thing up like stock. This IMO really says something for the tuning I'm running because of having such great performance out of the turbo with my simple setup. Thanks Les!

-Andrew

[2006Cummins]

How much boost are you makin' with that setup (I assume it is non-gated)? Just curious.

Mike

[FUBAR]

Non-gated. 40-45psi.

[2007 5.9]

Did it. How do I like it? Friggin' LOVE it! How's the spool with stock stix and an Arson 3 minus the FCA? (running stock FCA due to obtaining a bad one) Quick! Really impressed. Pushing a 3100 pulse time I do good to reach 1400* by 100+mph. I just can't wait to get my modded FCA back and light that thing up like stock. This IMO really says something for the tuning I'm running because of having such great performance out of the turbo with my simple setup. Thanks Les!

-Andrew


Glad your enjoying both the tuning and the turbo.

[TexasCummins]

Here's a question for y'all - how much boost is safe to run down the 1/4 track a couple times? Running stock wastegate settings my temps get pretty hot and with the boost fooler installed I run ~38psi and the temps are much more tame. I don't have studs.

[flat_lander]

I see lots of people say 45 is pretty safe. Others will claim higher, but I'm not sure I would personally.

[2007 5.9]

I set up my stock turbo tunes to push around 40-42psi.

I ran over 45 on my stocker years ago with no ill effects.

[DoghouseDiesel]

The most I run through a stocker is 35 - 38 psi.

Anything beyond that is outside the efficiency map and isn't doing anything for power or charge temp.

Besides that, the shaft is pencil thin. Bark it one too many times up there in the 40's and you'll be finding pieces of the compressor in you intercooler and the turbine wheel is likey to do a number on your down pipe.

[2007 5.9]

Rich, I almost completely agree with you...except we've dynoed with a stock turbo AND have seen moderate hp increases up to 45psi.

Is it smart...no...is it gonna wipe the turbo out eventually..yes.

Charge temps were hotter but she still made more power.

[DoghouseDiesel]

Yeah, it'll make a little more but I look at usable power vs dyno power.

What something makes on the dyno doesn't necessarily mean it can do anything useful at that power level.

This is why I don't put much stock in in anything over 40 - 60 hp from the stocker.

That and the drive pressures are rediculous.

I always like seeing the guys that go, "Man, my truck does 475 on the stocker...".....really? Go hitch up to that trailer over.

[Dmaxink]

We made the most power at 42lbs..however, I commercially sell the tunes only making 38...I sleep well at night doing so.

[TexasCummins]

What would y'all recommend as far as a safe top end main duration on stock injectors? I've hit 2600us no problem but would like to bump it up to ~3000...

And Kory I got the wastegate maxing me out at 38psi without the use of a fooler, thanks for the help :thumb_yello:

[2007 5.9]

As long as your rail can keep up..3000-3300 is about tops.

[someguy]

Practically speaking (the tuners might correct me here), but I don't think there is any benefit, remember that commanded fuel table is being used to reference back in to the pulse table. If you are wanting some control over the pulse time at higher than normal commanded mm3 then you could up the axis on the pulse table to 160mm3 so you have some control on the pulse time up there.

I always wondered about that. Thanks for replying.

[someguy]

The BW 63/68/.88 T-4 that Andrew is going to use, I have recommended to several customers with GREAT results.

It spools very fast, very responsive (with proper tuning), and will support 630-645hp with reasonable egts.

Plus it's 1/3 the price of one from a major turbo outfit.

Generally the cost comes out to be...$500 for T-4 manifold, $750 for turbo, and approx $250 for misc things (downpipe mods etc)

But for $1250-$1500 you essentially get the BD Killer B but without BD ever touching it.

I don't plan on ever running brand name turbos anymore. I've ran almost everything under the sun on my truck...I tried a off the shelf BW....and have been all smiles ever since.

Now that's all I recommend to my customers. With a proper tune and reasonable expectations, you don't need to be running a T-3 wastegated turbo with super tight exhaust housings.

Tune it so the turbo lights fast, and have fun in top.

All you get when you tighten up the housings, is muffled top end from being choked out.

Amen, brother !

[someguy]

I always like seeing the guys that go, "Man, my truck does 475 on the stocker...".....really? Go hitch up to that trailer over. Agreed !

This is an awesome thread.