Still Working on a "Smokeless" tune....

[2006Cummins]

I have been working on a good smokeless tune for a while now, and have made some progress, but am still not happy with the results. On my latest tune I have reduced the commanded mm3 in the lower rpm's, reduced the main duration table by 10%, reduced the pilot table by 10%, eliminated post injection, reduced pressure by 3%, set timing at 50%, and regulated the boost limiter out to 17psig. At this point I still have what I call the "pigpen effect" (like the kid with the cloud of dust following him on charley brown). This is even during moderate acceleration, or high rpm and low load.

I can make the truck not smoke to some degree, but it cant get out of it's own way until it builds a fair amount of boost - then it goes ok, but still smokes some. Or, I can make it decent to drive, but then I get the pigpen effect. I have gone as far as reducing main duration 35%, pilot duration 15%, pressure 10%, reduced commanded mm3 quit a bit in the low/mid rpm's, and adjusted the boost limiter to make it driveable. I have tried running more pressure and less duration, less pressure and more duration, less pressure and duration, more and less timing, more and less pilot duration, tweaking the boost limiter, etc. Admittedly, the boost limiter is the only limiter I am using. The reason for this is that I have found some of the limiters to have little/no effect, and it is easier to keep track of what just the boost limiter is doing, as opposed to try to figure out what each limiter is trying to do at what point.

What I would like to do is to use the boost limiter, or whatever, to limit acceleration smoke, but still be able to "get some" right when I floor it.

Thinking back, when running just the bully dog tuner (with injectors) - on any setting, I would have some acceleration smoke. With the quadzilla pressure box installed it would really clean up the acceleration smoke - to almost clean on moderate accel, and the truck would be more responsive. This makes me wonder exactly what the pressure box was doing. I know that pressure boxes obviously add pressure - which I have tried, but also act as a "boost builder" and keep from setting an over boost code. If it is adding more pressure (fuel quantity), and allowing a little more fuel earlier (more fuel), then I would think that it would smoke more - not less. The box must scale the amount of pressure to boost in a way that I am not seeing how to do using efilive.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Mike

[CIDRAUGHN]

In my experience, I was running an mp8 with a smarty before with big injectors and a large turbo. By dialing up the mp8, i could completely clear out the pigpen effect you are talking about, but the pressure was up there pretty high. I was watching it off of an in cab gauge. What I was seeing was that 3000-4000 psi additionally in the acceleration range would take care of almost everything. It was way more responsive, and much cleaner. I could make it smoke if I wanted it too, but of course it was aggressive at best tuning. I have been getting close to achieving what you are talking about, and I just happened to think about that when I read your post. May be worth a try, but I am not a huge fan of 22k+ psi just for light acceleration. Keep me up to date with what you try.

[Dmaxink]

^^x2, pressure can majorly help on this... sometimes 50% timing is a little much in part throttle areas.. 2 examples of this could also be associated to too much pilot (too much overall timing)... With say 50% BTDC, stock pilot tables could be coming in much too early.

[2007 5.9]

I have found smoke to be majorly tied to incorrect timing...in conjunction with too much duration can make it worse.

I like to start with timing first then adjust uS.

[KDubya]

Did you turn Post injection off? Zero out all post injection events and see how it does. You should be able to keep pressure and main duration up and run pretty clean with post turned off. The most I've ever done with Pilot is lightly smooth it.

[triton]

I think this is more for top end smoke but, I recently learned that playing with the "injection shutoff vs. rpm " will help to reduce smoke.

[DoghouseDiesel]

Pilot has a HUGE impact on your smoke output and also throttle response.

[GMPX]

It's nice to see a discussion about 'reducing' smoke :good:

[2006Cummins]

In my experience, I was running an mp8 with a smarty before with big injectors and a large turbo. By dialing up the mp8, i could completely clear out the pigpen effect you are talking about, but the pressure was up there pretty high. I was watching it off of an in cab gauge. What I was seeing was that 3000-4000 psi additionally in the acceleration range would take care of almost everything. It was way more responsive, and much cleaner. I could make it smoke if I wanted it too, but of course it was aggressive at best tuning. I have been getting close to achieving what you are talking about, and I just happened to think about that when I read your post. May be worth a try, but I am not a huge fan of 22k+ psi just for light acceleration. Keep me up to date with what you try.


^^x2, pressure can majorly help on this...

I'll go a little farther with pressure to see if that helps.


^^x2, pressure can majorly help on this... sometimes 50% timing is a little much in part throttle areas.. 2 examples of this could also be associated to too much pilot (too much overall timing)... With say 50% BTDC, stock pilot tables could be coming in much too early.


I have found smoke to be majorly tied to incorrect timing...in conjunction with too much duration can make it worse.


Pilot has a HUGE impact on your smoke output and also throttle response.

Roger that. I'll try 40% down low to see if that helps.

I need some help with pilot. I have reduced the pilot duration table, but only smoothed the pilot timing table. I'm really not sure how much to reduce the pilot duration and timing. Since I have reduced the pilot duration 10%, should I reduce the pilot timing table roughly the same amount? Wish we had a pilot timing calculator.


Did you turn Post injection off? Zero out all post injection events and see how it does. You should be able to keep pressure and main duration up and run pretty clean with post turned off. The most I've ever done with Pilot is lightly smooth it.

All post injection tables 0'ed.


I think this is more for top end smoke but, I recently learned that playing with the "injection shutoff vs. rpm " will help to reduce smoke.

I'm flat at 42* across the board....


It's nice to see a discussion about 'reducing' smoke
Smoke was fun about 12 years ago when I was first getting into diesel performance. Now, it just annoys me.

[triton]

you can reduce that 42*, 1* at a time and you will notice less smoke. Obviously just one way of attacking smoke, it does work though

[GMPX]

I need some help with pilot. I have reduced the pilot duration table, but only smoothed the pilot timing table. I'm really not sure how much to reduce the pilot duration and timing. Since I have reduced the pilot duration 10%, should I reduce the pilot timing table roughly the same amount?
Just my opinion (keeping in mind I don't tune every day), but I would suggest not changing the pulse tables, instead change the commanded mm3 amount for all your injection events. The ECM keeps track of commanded mm3 rates for all the injection events, if you zero the commanded mm3 then it knows there was no fuel injected for that event, if you still have say 15mm3 commanded but 0uS pulse time, it still thinks there was 15mm3 of fuel injected.

[DoghouseDiesel]

In most cases you DO NOT want to reduce the quantity of the pilot, you need to adjust the timing of it.

With larger injectors or higher commanded fuel, you often need to INCREASE the pilot quantity.

Reducing pilot events doesn't reduce smoke, it'll increase it in the daily driving ranges and you'll see higher EGT's as well.

[TexasCummins]

Subscribed.

[TexasCummins]

I mainly use {F0502} to control smoke down low as that's when my tunes seem to smoke or haze the most during take-off, low load acceleration and when it's in fourth gear locked up between 48-65mph.

I've also messed with the pilot quantities and timing to get the turbo spooling better in those situations, once I hit 10psi+ it mostly clears up.

[CIDRAUGHN]

In most cases you DO NOT want to reduce the quantity of the pilot, you need to adjust the timing of it.

With larger injectors or higher commanded fuel, you often need to INCREASE the pilot quantity.

Reducing pilot events doesn't reduce smoke, it'll increase it in the daily driving ranges and you'll see higher EGT's as well.

So you are saying to slightly increase pilot. Tell me if I am thinking correctly here but would I want to retard the main timing then to keep from having so much fuel put in BTDC? I have found my max timing limit for the uS that I am currently running on main injection. I am assuming you would retard the pilot timing then as well? Im getting pretty close to making a smokeless tune, but Im very interested in cleaning it up that much further, and possibly making it stronger as well.

[Dmaxink]

I have not had luck with increasing pilot on any of our big and some BIG injector trucks...our most positive results were from decreasing. Considering main uS has to be pulled for big sticks, so does the pilot in my experience. If a 245uS pilot before was ok, lets put 100s on it.and that becomes a 490uS basically...that's a big squirt...we lowered the pilot uS which in turn lowered the timing, and then went about our business and this has worked best for us.... maybe I have freak trucks ;-)

Pilot timing is a necessity to be modified once the main has been advanced...

[CIDRAUGHN]

Dmaxink, that has been my experience as well with 100% overs. I am about to throw in some larger ones and I was hoping to clarify that a little before I start tuning them in.

[2007 5.9]

I agree..I've seen better results from decreasing pilot timing and amount....

Not that I think your wrong Rich, but my results are not the same. And I've spent lots if time with 2 specific trucks that are running 70lpm and 90lpm injectors respectively.

Maybe ill try it in my personal truck and see if my results differ.

[Dmaxink]

Step 1.)

120,000,000
-----------= uSec/cycle
RPM

Step 2.)
add pilot pulse and main pulse then

pilot uS+Main uS
---------------= X*720(which is a full crank revolution)= Total Duration (on time)
uSec/Cycle

The total duration can be split divided by 2 or whatever you wish (50% timing)... This is how timing works in case anyone was wondering past the calculator :-)

EDIT: If you are using a post event, make sure you add the pulse of that event to Step#2.

Try this formula out on a 5.9 cummins running 140mm3@2600RPM and 23k PSI.. Stock timing comes out to start the injection around 50%BTDC afterall... The Main uS is the "power" shot so to speak... this is why in upper rpms many folks will rid pilot and post to utilize the Timing of the "power shot"..

LAST EDIT I PROMISE :-)
I hear some guys say "OMG 58* of PiLoTtT??" Well actually when we think timing we are thinking main timing which is dealing with main (big pulse) on time..so say you used the calculator and your working with 40* total on time with a 50% split (50btdc and 50%atdc which is 20* in tune tool).. Ok that was 40* total ON TIME (BIG PULSE)... the 58* of pilot is actually just saying its 58* away from the main, with a 245uS Pilot at 2600RPM, that is actually only 3* of pilot on time which a small amount... So there is another way of looking at it... Hope im not running everyone in circles...alot of times the way things make sense to me or a little wild. lol

[DoghouseDiesel]

It's like anything else, each truck is a different combination of parts.

This is one reason I don't do the mail order tunes or specific tuning advice.

When it comes to the smoke output and engine noise, the pilot is critical. It's a lot less so in the upper RPM ranges when all you're looking for is max power.

Over the last week, I've been doing nothing but testing different pilot combinations in different situations, specifically for smoke control, engine noise and throttle response.

If folks aren't tuning that pilot shot, you're missing out on a lot of untapped drivability.

[Dmaxink]

It's like anything else, each truck is a different combination of parts.

This is one reason I don't do the mail order tunes or specific tuning advice.

When it comes to the smoke output and engine noise, the pilot is critical. It's a lot less so in the upper RPM ranges when all you're looking for is max power.

Over the last week, I've been doing nothing but testing different pilot combinations in different situations, specifically for smoke control, engine noise and throttle response.

If folks aren't tuning that pilot shot, you're missing out on a lot of untapped drivability.

:cheers: Truth

[2007 5.9]

Agreed.

[DoghouseDiesel]

Just as an example of what I've been trying with the pilot event, today alone I flashed the truck about 15 times with nothing more than pilot changes in both qty and timing. Yesterday I swapped my 150 hp injectors out for a larger set of 200's, just to get it closer to another truck's setup. Going from my 150's to the larger 200's required a total revamp of the pilot.

Changes as little as 1* and qty's as little 40 uS have a SIGNIFICANT impact on smoke, engine noise, throttle response and spool up.

For folks that haven't messed with the pilot and all you've done is smooth out the OEM map, you're not even close to how quiet your truck can be with the pilot dialed in. One thing that has been pretty consistent is that timing values and qtys are too low in the daily driving ranges and with higher RPM's and timing values, the OEM values are too high.

There's a TON of fine tuning possible with that pilot alone.

[2007 5.9]

So youve increased pilot timing and mm3 in the lower left corners of the map and obviously decreased the values in the lower right corners??

Very interesting...might try that.

[2006Cummins]

Quite a bit of info at once. Gonna have to sleep on this and think about it again in the morning. I like to see all of the different ideas and experiences.

Mike

[GMPX]

What are these trucks like stock a far as noise goes?
I am picturing the spec at Cummins was:
1 - Meet Emissions
2 - Keep noise low
3 - Make them last the warranty period
4 - Make advertised power

[DoghouseDiesel]

So youve increased pilot timing and mm3 in the lower left corners of the map and obviously decreased the values in the lower right corners??

Very interesting...might try that.

Les,

On mine I have increased the pilot timing values and quantites, both in mm3's and duration, in the lower daily driving and mid ranges. On top, I've increase the quantity, but reduced the timing.

There's a VERY slim happy medium in most cases the provide good smoke control and reduced engine noise while still offering good throttle response and spool up.

When I run mine on settings that are close to OEM values, it makes NOTICABLY more engine noise (the rattle).

Mine is actually quieter than a stock truck by quite a bit, except for the exhaust tone. My real gauge for this is my wife...she doesn't notice much with the truck, but anything with noise she notices. When she asks, "what did you do to your truck; it sounds quieter?", that's when I know I've hit the sweet spot. She could care less about what I do, unless it's noise or smoke, so that's my real gauge fpr those things.

But, each setup varies SO much. Just swapping my 150's to the 200's resulted in having to go back and revamp the timing and quantity. Timing had to be increased to deal with the lag between injection and ignition and quantity had to also n the lower ranges, but up top it had to be pulled back more. Down low was totally opposite of what I thought it would need. Reducing the vaues increased the noise levels.

[DoghouseDiesel]

What are these trucks like stock a far as noise goes?
I am picturing the spec at Cummins was:
1 - Meet Emissions
2 - Keep noise low
3 - Make them last the warranty period
4 - Make advertised power

Ross,

In stock form they're pretty quiet, but you do still have the charactersitic diesl rattle. Not nearly what the per-common rails were, but there is still a noticeable rattle, expecially when you get into the throttle and put a higher load on the motor.

Mine is actually quieter than a stock motor, except for the exhaust tone itself. But, if you open the hood and stand in front of it or sit in the driver seat, it's much quieter.

[DoghouseDiesel]

Okay, we've all seen the OEM Pilot Timing and the Pilot Qty, that's no big secret. And most people just smooth it out until it looks pretty, so here's the OEM Timing and Commanded mm3's.....

http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll189/Cumminalong/Dohouse Diesel Pics/EFI Live Screen Shots/Slide1-26.jpg

http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll189/Cumminalong/Dohouse Diesel Pics/EFI Live Screen Shots/Slide2-27.jpg

Now, here is my working pilot setup. The mm3 values are not smoothed at all for a reason. I'm going point by point with those and not smoothing them over.

You can really see in the commanded mm3 values, that I'm using a LOT more than the OEM does.

Keep in mind, my actual values in the vertical column are not even remotely close to the OEM map and the the mm3 values are also completely rescaled.

http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll189/Cumminalong/Dohouse Diesel Pics/EFI Live Screen Shots/Slide3-15.jpg

http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll189/Cumminalong/Dohouse Diesel Pics/EFI Live Screen Shots/Slide4-11.jpg

[2007 5.9]

Great information Rich....this is why I love this forum over all others...people who KNOW arent afraid to share ideas without giving away propriatary information....

PERFECT!!!!

[Dmaxink]

That's pretty cool rich, I really enjoy seeing the approach others take on different matters. I tell many of my customers there are 100+ ways to make 100hp, all going back to specific truck and driver! :thumbup:

[DoghouseDiesel]

That's pretty cool rich, I really enjoy seeing the approach others take on different matters. I tell many of my customers there are 100+ ways to make 100hp, all going back to specific truck and driver! :thumbup:

Exactly.

This is the whole reason I don't do mail order tunes, except on a VERY limited basis. Most of the time I refer folks to you or Les, as I know thats a big part of your business.

I won't tune a truck unless I have it here, with a few exceptions.

What works well on one, may be total garbage on another.

I simply don't have the extra time to support the mail order tunes that they really need.

[triton]

I know this thread is about Smoke but, I wanted to point out the extreme passion I've seen from Rich with this stuff. I'm sure this pilot work is something he would have been into anyway but, because of the rattle my truck has..... he's gone above and beyond to tune it OUT.

Here's a video of my truck and it's injector rattle ( you might want to sit down lol ) The video DOES exaggerated the sound. My truck has quiet a bit done to it along with pretty large injectors which, has made it need a lot of fine tuning. It's been like this for 5 yrs now and until now, it's not been able to be tuned out.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aahqv4fk4O0


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8Qbk8w6g7s

I've tried several revision tunes and have a load more to try thanks to Rich. The tunes where values were decreased I experienced more rattle and smoke. That same tune Rich mentioned he tried on other trucks and his and they were quiet as can be. Just goes to show..... As he said, just messing with the pilot has netted, smoke-no smoke, rattle - less rattle. No power has been compromised though

I'll post a video once we've got it un-rattled which Rich is well on his way to doing !

[DoghouseDiesel]

I couldn't believe how bad Ty's truck rattled. I've never heard anything that loud.

His truck is the reason I put these 200's in mine so I could get it closer to how his was set up. Otherwise, our setups are pretty similar except I run a lot smaller injectors.

His truck WOULD NOT respond to lower pilot timing values and quantities. All of the tuning I did yesterday was to specifically address the rattle and smoke he has.

[chance cobb]

nice

[DoghouseDiesel]

Just to put into perspective how much of an impact the pilot really has on smoke, engine noise and EGT's, I hear more noise from my accessory drive items than I do from the motor at cruising speeds.

Today I was getting on the highway and the ramp was fairly long and had a good grade to it. I rolled into the throttle up to approx 3 grand and all there was was a light haze behind the truck and EGT's never went over 900.

[CIDRAUGHN]

What you are saying is beginning to make sense to me now. With the bigger injectors things may work backwards from what I was originally thinking.

[2007 5.9]

^^^^^^ agreed.

[icemanjc1]

What you are saying is beginning to make sense to me now. With the bigger injectors things may work backwards from what I was originally thinking.

Backwards for me too, still trying to understand how introducing more fuel before the main event gains (x3) better results. Worked for me though, so....
I'm really kind of in awe today, after making some changes to the pilot. No more 13-1400 RPM "crackle", which has been SO frickin' annoying. Slight haze at cruise lessened (hard to do at 6500ft elev). Not to mention the power does come quicker. Kudos to Rich again.

[DoghouseDiesel]

I didn't get it at first either.

Everything I was trying was reducing the pilot quantities and timing.

As soon as we started increasing those values everything smoothed right out.

Other things I've noticed is a faster start and smoother idle.

One of the things I've been gauging the pilot values on is how much the main injection duration fluctuates as it idles. Where the idle values used to swing several hundred uS, right now they average about 40-50 uS in variation.

[2007 5.9]

Great news Rich.

[FUBAR]

Just out of curiosity, do any of you all modify the pilot pulse table or rely solely on the base mm3 tables?

[DoghouseDiesel]

Just out of curiosity, do any of you all modify the pilot pulse table or rely solely on the base mm3 tables?

Yes. I also modified the pulsewidth.

[DoghouseDiesel]

Gonna work on the coolant and air temp adjustments for the remainder of the week.

Still have a little rattle under 170*, but thats it.

[olboyowl]

i started messin with pilot timing and quantities last night. went up 1* for timing and 2mm3 for quantity. seemed to idle a little more quite. gonna mess with it more tonight at work. don't know if anyones messed with it before or not, but i advanced timing cranking some in main and pilot and it helped the truck start alot more smoother. did a comparison between stock settings and my modified tables. both mornings were in the low 20's (truck wasn't plugged in) and it started way better with more timing.

[2006Cummins]

I'm excited to start playing with the pilot quantity and timing. I have added pressure which helped with the low-range smoke, but has somewhat significantly increased mid-range smoke. I'll take a look at the duration table to see if that has something to to with it. Have had snow and rain the past couple of weeks so it's been difficult to do much testing.

[DoghouseDiesel]

Well, after some initial tests.....don't raise the coolant and air temp values....does NOT sound good.

[olboyowl]

before i put some hours into this, do you guys think fine tuning pilot will have the same effect on a stock set up? most of yall have bigger injectors, turbos, and so on. the only haze i see is when i initially hit the throttle on take off during the day and a haze at night time (in headlights behind me) getting up to speed.

[FUBAR]

I was clean as a whistle stock, it's now that I've got a bigger turbo and injectors that poses the need for fine tuning the smoke out.

[TexasCummins]

On my truck (stock turbo and injectors) I increased the quantity, timing and pulsewidth of the pilot event, I even mixed and matched settings but it seems the more I add the more it sounds like a 24v. I backed it off and it sounds better but I start to get the "knock" back which is what I want to tune out, y'all know the knock I'm talking about? If you walk to the front of the truck and listen you'll hear it.

[olboyowl]

On my truck (stock turbo and injectors) I increased the quantity, timing and pulsewidth of the pilot event, I even mixed and matched settings but it seems the more I add the more it sounds like a 24v. I backed it off and it sounds better but I start to get the "knock" back which is what I want to tune out, y'all know the knock I'm talking about? If you walk to the front of the truck and listen you'll hear it.


you sound like u may have already tried it, but have u advanced your main timing up to around tdc? rich mentioned doing this to help with the rattle/knock and it worked. still has a little knock if u stand in front of it and the hoods up, but just sittin in the truck with the windows down, its pretty damn quiet. the little knock i still have was my reason for wondering if i can tune more out.

[TexasCummins]

My main timing at idle in park and in gear was about -2*, I'll bump it up one and see what happens.

[2006Cummins]

I added a little pilot mm3 and timing in the daily driving range, and at idle. I can say for sure that there is less smoke when I roll into the throttle after changing gears, and at mid-range acceleration. The engine seems a little more responsive. Also, the exhaust didn't have quite as strong of a smell to it today, but it was also about 20* warmer than it has been. I honestly didn't notice any difference with how the engine sounded - mine really doesn't have much of a rattle/knock to it.

[FUBAR]

For reference, S363 and 90's. When I added 50% (bare in mind here that 50% of 3-10mm3 is not as substantial as it sounds) Pilot mm3 to my tables, it just smoked more. Seemed to spool just a hint quicker, but nothing improved during DD'ing conditions. Next plan is to go back to scratch, take away 3* of Pilot timing, then if that doesn't work, go back to scratch, and take 40% mm3 away from Pilot. AFTER I try out a particular boost table somebody was withholding out on me...lol.

[DoghouseDiesel]

Remember what I said earlier.....

Tiny changes to the pilot make a HUGE impact.

I'm talking 1* and 1 - 2 mm3 numbers.

If you take big swings at the pilot, you'll overshoot the sweet spot.

Save the changes to the duration table until you get it close and then make SMALL (i.e. 5 - 10%) changes to very small areas of the duration table.

[2006Cummins]

FWIW, I'm at roughly 2.5 - 6mm3 pilot in the daily driving range (stock duration), and 10 - 26*. I have added a little more - will see what happens.

[FUBAR]

Added 2* to my pilot timing and smoke seemed not as black, but still smokey. One thing that did change was when engine was under load and low boost, throttled hard, it rattled. Just posting my experiences.

[2007 5.9]

I wonder if nozzle type has a effect??

Rich, who's nozzles are you and Ty running??

I remember Ty mentioning Exergy, which use a different cone angle nozzle than factory, but don't know if that is the case with his current ones or yours....

[triton]

I wonder if nozzle type has a effect??

Rich, who's nozzles are you and Ty running??

I remember Ty mentioning Exergy, which use a different cone angle nozzle than factory, but don't know if that is the case with his current ones or yours....

I'm not sure what Rich was using but, mine are pretty large Bosch Motorsports S.A.C nozzles. I'd wonder if that was a cause if, my truck didn't rattle with the Extruded stock nozzles. Spraying outside the bowl has never been a problem so, I'm pretty positive that's not the issue now.

[2007 5.9]

I'm not sure what Rich was using but, mine are pretty large Bosch Motorsports S.A.C nozzles. I'd wonder if that was a cause if, my truck didn't rattle with the Extruded stock nozzles. Spraying outside the bowl has never been a problem so, I'm pretty positive that's not the issue now.

Ty, the Motorsport nozzles that Exergy uses are of a differnt spray angle the stock nozzles. You can call Greg or PM Weston to confirm...but that very well may be part of your issue. The factory nozzles that came on yours, mine, and all of ours are of a 124° and the Motorsports nozzles are of a 143° variety.

So if your truck didnrt rattle with the factory 124° EH nozzles but it IS ratteling with the 143° nozzle your currently using...I'd start to think that might be a large part of it.

[2007 5.9]

And Ty, I just figured this out a few days ago...I have spoken with Weston at great lengths about going to these 143° nozzles...as I have a customer who just bought some 200% over Exergy's with the 143° nozzle, and I needed info on what the timing requirements needed to be and how they changed from running the 124° of previous.

[triton]

And Ty, I just figured this out a few days ago...I have spoken with Weston at great lengths about going to these 143° nozzles...as I have a customer who just bought some 200% over Exergy's with the 143° nozzle, and I needed info on what the timing requirements needed to be and how they changed from running the 124° of previous.

I've had the rattle for yrs Les. With stock extruded and with these. From what I remember in talking with Greg, these nozzles have been EDMed and extruded and in their process they retain the angles needed. I can see stock nozzles in VCO or SAC having those angles but, once they've been enlarged, the angle becomes what they make it. They may keep those angle ??

It's something also about how fast the pintal can move and it's design in it's seat that's different from VCO. Those boys know their injectors and he said anything over 100% should be a SAC.

You do have a point though and without being the EFI brain you guys are, I'd say too that timing is highly affected.

Rich has tuned some bad a$$ stuff so, my truck is on it's way to having it dealt with :-)

[2007 5.9]

Ok...was just a thought

[triton]

Ok...was just a thought

I'd listen to any of those you have :book:

[DoghouseDiesel]

Les, that's one of the first things I normally ask is who's injectors they are.

That spray angle changes everything.

The other thing that ISN'T so commonly known is the actual injector solenoid delay.

Different solenoids have different delays from signal to actual event. Without testing them to see what that delay is, you have that to deal with also.

[FUBAR]

After playing with small pilot modifications, +\- 1-5 mm3's, +\- 30uS, +\- 1-3* timing and having not much luck, (I saw reactions, just not positive ones) I was revised a Boost Fuel limiter table that pretty much nailed what I was after. No smoke. A light haze at best and turbo still spools quick. And we're talking about a single (BW S363) turbo non-gated 16cm turbine housing. Wonder if the difference in turbo setups (large(r) singles vs twins) have a big role in how or which way (less or more) pilot is tuned to control smoke and spool?

[olboyowl]

sweet. still lookin for the sweet spot. right now im right around +.5-1mm3 for quantity and 1-2* fpr timing from stock. haven't messed with us yet. will keep pluggin away.

[triton]

Wonder if the difference in turbo setups (large(r) singles vs twins) have a big role in how or which way (less or more) pilot is tuned to control smoke and spool?

I'd say it's make a big difference. If you're mostly stock, you're probably gonna need to say closer to those stock values, maybe in the opposite direction Rich went ?? I'm moving a lot of fuel and have fairly big turbos so, it takes a bit more work on the tune into unknown areas.

[DoghouseDiesel]

After playing with small pilot modifications, +\- 1-5 mm3's, +\- 30uS, +\- 1-3* timing and having not much luck, (I saw reactions, just not positive ones) I was revised a Boost Fuel limiter table that pretty much nailed what I was after. No smoke. A light haze at best and turbo still spools quick. And we're talking about a single (BW S363) turbo non-gated 16cm turbine housing. Wonder if the difference in turbo setups (large(r) singles vs twins) have a big role in how or which way (less or more) pilot is tuned to control smoke and spool?

Every truck is different!

What works on one can be 180*'s from what works on another.

There are so many variables that play into what is going to be ideal for YOUR specific situation that the only way to get to where it needs to be is a little trial and error and good feedback to the tuner or good understand of the data logs if you're doing your own tuning.

This is one reason I don't do mail order tunes or offer free tunes. If its not tailored to your truck, you might as well keep using a box tuner.

[FUBAR]

I agree Rich. I was more or less trying to find a difference why the way you tune pilot kinda goes is different than a few others. You seem to increase Pilot, while most others seem to reduce it. The general difference that seemed to light a bulb up was your twin turbo truck and Ty's. Almost seems logical, twin turbos..more air instantly..more fuel sooner. Big singles...slower spool..tether pilot back a little. I'm glad you share your experience and knowledge and I was just trying to do the same. (with what little I got, lol) It's all good man!

[DoghouseDiesel]

Oh, no I got ya brother.

It really surprised me too. I had been decreasing my pilot values also as it seemed like the way to go, but after that got the opposite response and I started thinking about it, the idea of increasing the values started making more sense.

Its just another one of those "thinking outside the box" moments.

Each truck has its own set of quirks that make the tuning needs unique. What works on mine, might be a turd on yours.

[FUBAR]

Amen brother! And we wonder how we ever were satisfied with Smar.... eh.. box tunes. Doesn't take a genius to make power, but it sure pays to know or to know someone who can make the truck run right WITH power huh?

[2007 5.9]

What do you mean??

I just push power level 11 and I make the smoke...thats POWER!!! lol..

[Dmaxink]

For the sake of mankind and my dedication to being smarter...ill stick to rattling, 3600uS, 654* timing, and 32000PSI that smokes more than Bob Marley on a bad day! Especially now that I can shoot in the dark on my PC without scanning it, ill just call it my FTW tune!! Lol :p:D:beer:

[TexasCummins]

I'm still having trouble getting rid of smoke when the truck is lugged down - on take off and especially trying to accelerate in fourth gear with the converter locked between 50-60mph. I lowered main duration and commanded fuel in cruising range... anyone have ideas? I mentioned earlier in this thread that I used the fuel limiting based off boost but since I'm running a fooler it just bogs the truck down.

Once the turbo is spooled and hits 9psi+ it just turns to a light haze.

[Dmaxink]

where is your timing in this area? Also, ditch the boost fooler, they are good about bogging them down.

[TexasCummins]

I use the fooler to keep my temps down at the top end, especially when I was at the track saturday. The only time I noticed the fooler bogging the truck down was when I used to use the fuel limiters, but I've maxed them all and am just working on tuning it for no smoke so I don't believe the fooler is limiting me in any way now. I'll have to log a highway cruise to get an exact number but my timing is a bit low, very rarely does it go above 50% in the calculator.

[FUBAR]

I'm still having trouble getting rid of smoke when the truck is lugged down - on take off and especially trying to accelerate in fourth gear with the converter locked between 50-60mph. I lowered main duration and commanded fuel in cruising range... anyone have ideas? I mentioned earlier in this thread that I used the fuel limiting based off boost but since I'm running a fooler it just bogs the truck down.

Once the turbo is spooled and hits 9psi+ it just turns to a light haze.

Guys, for people having trouble controlling their fuel in low BOOST conditions, there may be something that is totally contrary to what we've thought all along...

[Dmaxink]

sometimes even 20% in the calc can be too much and cause smoke depending on the load... when you say keep temps down, im assuming your speaking egts? I know i can have the charger making 45lbs, or 38lbs with tuning alone...

[TexasCummins]

Yes EGTs. I've messed with the wastegate settings but accelerating on the highway it was creeping past 47 with no sign of stopping and with the fooler it keeps boost at 38 under wide open conditions. I'll go back to the drawing board and mess around with the timing in that specific area after all this rain passes.

[Dmaxink]

Sounds goo man, timing and the wastegate settings will easily get you back down to 38lbs of boost..were running max fuel and still with efilive alone making 38lbs...just play with the settings.

[TexasCummins]

I have a feeling mine was getting so high because I still used the factory 1,800rpm setting for the opening threshold and when I'm locked in fourth it doesn't get that high until I'm going at least 80. Maybe if I lower it to 1,400-ish.

[2007 5.9]

If your having issues with low end, low boost smoke....look to your boost limiter table, it plays a much bigger role than most give credit to.

Also ditch the Boost Fooler...its not alowing your MAP to read correctly and maybe causing un-needed complications.

[Dmaxink]

Yep, to add to what Les is saying..also datalog and see at what point your boost (fuel limiting) table is being referenced...

[2007 5.9]

Yep, to add to what Les is saying..also datalog and see at what point your boost (fuel limiting) table is being referenced...

Careful with that Kory...some new information may be coming to light about this table and the links associated with it.

Testing to be done...info to follow.

[FUBAR]

Disregard my link to the fuel boost limiter table!!!!! Let me repeat, I can't stress this enough! Disregard the link or highlighting feature in the Boost Fuel Limiter D0502 table!!! Swift correction will be taken once this information may come to light!

[Dmaxink]

I know the sensor never falls below baro...so I have to map it from there down...I have found it doesn't follow accurately ;-).... hits the be sure to datalog and compare manually! Lolol

[FUBAR]

I know why it doesn't follow accurately....patience.

[2006Cummins]

Guys, for people having trouble controlling their fuel in low BOOST conditions, there may be something that is totally contrary to what we've thought all along...

What do you mean?


sometimes even 20% in the calc can be too much and cause smoke depending on the load...

Wow, that is surprising. I'm at 40% at light throttle, and 45% at light/moderate throttle, and 50% in the majority of the table. I'm used to setting a pump at 15* - 20* and not having much/any change during load or rpm. I wonder if I should lower the % some at light throttle?

[FUBAR]

What do you mean?

I mean what the link and highlighting feature in the boost limiter table is completely wrong and BOOST is just that in the title of the table. I can't really officially say anything till the powers to be say so. It's really not nothing world changing, but it's TOTALLY opposite of GM tables. That's where I believe the mass confusion began.

[FUBAR]

It's basically just boost. Whatever the pressure axis's are in the table, it's MAP minus BARO = Boost and the ECM will reference this value in the table. Wonder if Ross or Paul could create a true boost pid in the ScanTool so I can link it correctly??

[2007 5.9]

It's basically just boost. Whatever the pressure axis's are in the table, it's MAP minus BARO = Boost and the ECM will reference this value in the table. Wonder if Ross or Paul could create a true boost pid in the ScanTool so I can link it correctly??

This would be great if they could find one, then this table wouldnt be as confusing to the newbie like myself.

[TexasCummins]

I started limiting fuel in low load/low boost situations and all it does is make the turbo spool slower causing the same if not more smoke. Without any limiting once my turbo starts to light it skyrockets on up and cleans the exhaust up.

I guess it's time to start reworking my durations then, I did take the pilot and main durations from a 6.7 and modified them for mine... :D

[FUBAR]

After realizing that my nozzles that I just installed are not 90's, but more than likely are 150's (yea, that was a smack in the face!) I have been working with Les to iron out my main pulse table. I have to say, tailoring the duration correctly to my mis-matched setup (unintentionally) in-conjunction with fine tuning the boost fuel limiter table, I now have a clean, powerful tune. I'm/we're still refining the boost table to teeter that fine line of smoke and spool..getting closer with every flash though!! It's been a small challenge to tune my "mis-matched" setup, but it would've been a nightmare with any box tuner...

[Dmaxink]

Texas-for the hell of it, try loading in stock main and pilot timing values and report back...your results may be surprising...

[2006Cummins]

I started limiting fuel in low load/low boost situations and all it does is make the turbo spool slower causing the same if not more smoke. Without any limiting once my turbo starts to light it skyrockets on up and cleans the exhaust up.


I have had similar experience with F0502.

Since I started this thread I have been able to make some good progress. I think a lot of it has been due to adding pressure, and a little to playing with the pilot. I have been working with the boost limiting table the last couple of days. I know that some say that they have really noticed a difference with smoke when adjusting timing, but honestly, I haven't really seen much difference at all. Maybe I'm just that far off :hihi:

[2007 5.9]

With your 64mm and 50hp injectors...you should be really clean all the time except under WOT over 2500rpms...but up until then...the most you should see is a slight haze...and I mean slight.

[2006Cummins]

With your 64mm and 50hp injectors...you should be really clean all the time except under WOT over 2500rpms...but up until then...the most you should see is a slight haze...and I mean slight.

That's what I'm talkin' 'bout!

[2007 5.9]

Talk to FUBAR about his setup...hes got a S363 with what looks to be 120-150hp injectors...and he's pretty much smoke free.

[FUBAR]

It's true. One would think 120-150's would smack a S363 in the behind and there be zero lag for zero smoke. That's true to an extent. There are still places in the tune that need critical attention, namely main duration and boost fuel limiter. One thing that needs to be reminded, is the size of the pulse. Everybody knows bigger injectors flow more fuel..duh! But why am I reinstating this? Because chances are, the more conservative you are with the main duration table, the more it's gonna be tailored to your setup vs smoke and lag. Just because you might end up with what seems like a small uS number doesn't mean it's not powerful. It just means you are custom tuning for your setup and getting the air to fuel ratio closer. Yes one needs to load up fuel to build heat to spool, but I find setting the duration table up, then use boost fuel limiter to clean up the residual smoke and minimize the lag time is key. Right now I have zero smoke up to 11psi boost, and a little smoke if I'm mashing on it above that. Other than that it's clean and fairly progressive till the turbo lights. I'm continually refining that point to where the turbo lights vs smoke down low to make it as smooth as a transition as possible. Good stuff!

[TexasCummins]

Texas-for the hell of it, try loading in stock main and pilot timing values and report back...your results may be surprising...

Will do after all this rain goes away.

[FUBAR]

I've done it!! I've broken free from my nasty habit of...SMOKING!! After reviewing logs and knowing what values smoke and doesn't smoke, blendind and rounding everything linearly, I now have a "smokeless" tune!! There's a light haze at best building up to 20+psi boost and there is no "wall" where the tune just let's go after building "X" ammount of boost or feels like the truck is holding back when the torque converter is locked in 4th when you want to accelerate. It's now clean and very smooth! Glory Hallelujah!!! Man I'm pumped...

[FUBAR]

Attached are a couple pics where the mm3 line takes a similar path as boost is built. VERY similar when the throttle is rolled on and quite similar when mashed. Seems to be key for me in making boost and supressing smoke without feeling limited.


12633

12634

[2006Cummins]

I've done it!! I've broken free from my nasty habit of...SMOKING!!
Great work. I'm happy for you!

On a side note; I have been having a hard time setting up my dashboard like you have done. I have the analog gauge setup on one page, but it is not something that I am very proud of. I know that viewing logs in the format that you are using is a much better way to do it. Has anyone posted a file for the different pages that I can download?

Made a little more progress with the boost limiter today...

[TexasCummins]

I changed my pre-2,000rpm timing to a modified stock and it smokes less and only gives a quick, slight haze when you get on it then cleans up. I noticed I'm also getting more 2-3-2-3 shuttling with this change.

[FUBAR]

Thanks! Right click and change to chart layout. The. Right click once in the chart and click series tab. The. Select whatever PID's you want to view and also you can change the range of the pid, line size, font, label, etc.

[06redram]

Big Red finally smoke free from stop too wide open with big power also sounds better than the stock OEM tune at idle. It has been months of fighting for the sweet spot😃 I like to thank all for all the tips that has been posted 👍

[chance cobb]

thats goodnews

[2006Cummins]

Ok FUBAR, with all of this talk about how good your truck runs and how little it smokes I had to contact Les at silver bullet tuning. I just started working with him and all I can say is "wow"! I now have zero smoke during normal acceleration, and much less smoke during moderate/heavy accel. I'm surprised how it can be responsive, and clean. I'm one of those guys that likes to do everything myself, but sometimes help from someone who really knows what they are doing makes all the difference. Les obviously knows what he is doing! I'm really excited with the progress that has been made, and to get everything dialed in. :good:

[FUBAR]

2006Cummins, that's really great to hear! I know exactly what you mean by being a DIY guy when it comes to your truck. But whether it be my truck, or framing a door, if I don't exactly know how to do it, I'm not too proud to ask for help (just ask my buddy who came over a few weeks ago with his portable planer, lol.) Now log, small change, log, small change, etc. I'm actually happy to say I haven't flashed my truck in a while, I'm that happy with it.

[2007 5.9]

Ok FUBAR, with all of this talk about how good your truck runs and how little it smokes I had to contact Les at silver bullet tuning. I just started working with him and all I can say is "wow"! I now have zero smoke during normal acceleration, and much less smoke during moderate/heavy accel. I'm surprised how it can be responsive, and clean. I'm one of those guys that likes to do everything myself, but sometimes help from someone who really knows what they are doing makes all the difference. Les obviously knows what he is doing! I'm really excited with the progress that has been made, and to get everything dialed in. :good:

Ive read your PM..I'll be addressing your questions/concerns this evening.

Glad you enjoy the tune.

[Tomeygun]

I know this is an old thread, but just an update after reading it a few months back.

I gathered 5 flow sheets from various injector companies, and compared them to stock flow numbers from 2 others... Best I can tell is that the rapid drop of pressure at short/low duration (like at idle) led me to increase pilot under a certain pressure... leave it alone in the mid range, and reduce it high pressure.

Seems to have worked in keeping the engine quiet like non-upgraded trucks.