Where

[RonnieW]

1270412705

Where is my timing coming from?

I have just started tuning with efilive. Been reading a lot on the forum but can't find my answer. So far I have just been tuning the VE table. Made some adjustments in the upper rpm levels to the spark tables to keep me out of trouble while doing AFR. My car was previously tuned by a local tuning shop. I changed my heads and upped the compression ratio from 8.8 to around 9.6-10 or so.
While comparing my log to my tune, I decided to look at the spark tables. All log readings showed the timing coming from the last column, labeled .042 (max column) under the OZ/CYLINDER. It is doing this in all timing tables. My timing logs showed my timing fluctuating around 30 and seemed to be fine. I can't see where the timing is coming from unless the log is floating around in the wrong cells in the timing tables. What could be causing this?

I also read a lot about injector flow rates needing to be correct. I don't think mine are. I have motron 60's and the IFR figures are all in the 30's or so. If I change these, will it throw what AFR tuning I've done off the charts?

01Z06, 347 ci, A4 with TCI/FAST tranny controller, APS TT
Speed density, not using the NB02s
V2 Flashscan, LM2 wide band

[RonnieW]

Still needing help.

[joecar]

You can try loggint the EST_xxx_DMA pids to see if they reveal where spark is coming/going.

[joecar]

It might work easier to set Metric in the scantool (at least set the cylinder airmass pids to Metric)...

then you can have tunetool open on the spark tables while playing back the log on the scantool;

the tunetool tables indicate which pids you have to log to enable scantool->tunetool pid linking which highlights the cells in the table being viewed as the log plays.

[RonnieW]

I just got back from doing another log. I will change the cylinder airmass to metric on my next log run. It won't let me change the one I just logged. I have been watching the cells in the tunetool spark tables that were logged in the scantool and they are all pegged to the last column which is .042.

The other question: Is there a problem with my IFR being so far off?

Thanks for the response!
Ronnie

[joecar]

You can change the logged pid to Metric like this:

on the PIDs tab, on the pid go rightclick->Metric;

and then on the chart/gauge select the Metric version of that pid.

[joecar]

If your IFR is sufficiently far from actual flowrate, then the VE and MAF would be scaled away from actual airmass/airflow (if VE and MAF are tuned, then they are scaled away from actual by the same percent as IFR is scaled away from actual)...

this means that your cylinder airmass is incorrect, and this is used to lookup the spark tables, so your spark is not right.

You could try doing this (this is a long shot, it may or may not work):
- correct your IFR table and take note of the percent difference the old one is from the new one (take note of sign +/-);
- un-scale the VE ans MAF by the same percent (using same sign +/-);
- take a log and verify that the wideband BEN and LTFT's are still good, and verify cylinder airmass and spark lookup are good;

[RonnieW]

If your IFR is sufficiently far from actual flowrate, then the VE and MAF would be scaled away from actual airmass/airflow (if VE and MAF are tuned, then they are scaled away from actual by the same percent as IFR is scaled away from actual)...

this means that your cylinder airmass is incorrect, and this is used to lookup the spark tables, so your spark is not right.

You could try doing this (this is a long shot, it may or may not work):
- correct your IFR table and take note of the percent difference the old one is from the new one (take note of sign +/-);
- un-scale the VE ans MAF by the same percent (using same sign +/-);
- take a log and verify that the wideband BEN and LTFT's are still good, and verify cylinder airmass and spark lookup are good;

Could you give me an example? When I think of percent I think of multiplying not +/-. I don't use the MAF or the NBO2's. Thanks again.

[joecar]

For example, say the new IFR is 10% more than the old IFR, and assuming the VE and MAF were tuned to the new IFR, then to return to the old IFR would mean scaling the IFR and VE and MAF by -10% (i.e. reducing by 10%).

[RonnieW]

For example, say the new IFR is 10% more than the old IFR, and assuming the VE and MAF were tuned to the new IFR, then to return to the old IFR would mean scaling the IFR and VE and MAF by -10% (i.e. reducing by 10%).

The percentage worked so far. Still tuning AFR but the spark table is still off. Is there something I'm not selecting in the PID section? Thanks!!

[joecar]

You can log KR instead of KNKRET.

I looked thru your files, and I don't see why timing is so different.

[RonnieW]

You can log KR instead of KNKRET.

I looked thru your files, and I don't see why timing is so different.

Joe, do you know of anyone else on here that might be able to help? Right now I don't know what I'm going to do about tuning the spark once I get the AFR's dialed in. Thanks for checking my files!

[Gregs]

The percentage worked so far. Still tuning AFR but the spark table is still off. Is there something I'm not selecting in the PID section? Thanks!!

Excuse me if a butt in here but in the log you posted i don't see where you're logging your airflow. For the spark table you need to log grams/cyl.

If you don't have your ifr correct its just going to bake the error into your ve chart

wow! smooth out that ve table! :)

ps. I don't see anything weird going on with spark... am i missing something

[RonnieW]

Excuse me if a butt in here but in the log you posted i don't see where you're logging your airflow. For the spark table you need to log grams/cyl.

If you don't have your ifr correct its just going to bake the error into your ve chart

wow! smooth out that ve table! :)

ps. I don't see anything weird going on with spark... am i missing something

No problem Gregs, butt in all you want. The VE is still in progress. I have also corrected my IFR data to reflect the 60# injectors. Which grams/cylinder PID do I need to log? I am not using the MAF. When running the log it only hits the max (.042) OZ/cylinder columns in the timing tables. I'm thinking it is something that I'm not logging as you are saying. Thanks, Ronnie

[Gregs]

No problem Gregs, butt in all you want. The VE is still in progress. I have also corrected my IFR data to reflect the 60# injectors. Which grams/cylinder PID do I need to log? I am not using the MAF. When running the log it only hits the max (.042) OZ/cylinder columns in the timing tables. I'm thinking it is something that I'm not logging as you are saying. Thanks, Ronnie

don't quote me on this but i think you might be looking for the pid GM.DYNCYLAIR_DMA if that's the right pid than that's what you should be using for your x-axis for the spark table.

I do everything in metric except for the speed tables, its just easier for me that way so i'm not accustomed to seeing oz/cyl, but grams/cyl instead. Doesn't really matter in the long run, just clarifying why i was referring to grams/cyl above ^

[joecar]

Either of these: GM.DYNCYLAIR_DMA or GM.DYNCYLAIR

(set scantool and tunetool to Metric)

[RonnieW]

Thanks guys, I can now see where the timing is coming from since I changed to metric.

[joecar]

Post some screenshots (showing scanool->tunetool pid linking).

[RonnieW]

Post some screenshots (showing scanool->tunetool pid linking).
All is okay now Joecar. Changing to metric did the job. I am learning as I go. This will keep me busy tuning for a while.

Thanks
Ronnie