Auto VE or Calc VET or Auto Maf?!?!

[Nver2loud]

I have read so many posts and all seem to be a little bit different. I have tried to settle on doing an Auto VE, but I cant seem to replicate what the instructions say as far as which PID's to log. I downloaded and printed the Auto VE tutorial, I see this is from 2007. Is this still a safe guide to follow? I only see that it recommends 12 PID's to log, where as the other guide I was reading had 24 PID's to log.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
BTW, this is a LS1B with an LC1 wideband via serial on a v2.

[macca_779]

Auto VE is fine for an ls1 mate


Sent from my iPhone 4 using Tapatalk

[Laychut]

I have read so many posts and all seem to be a little bit different. I have tried to settle on doing an Auto VE, but I cant seem to replicate what the instructions say as far as which PID's to log. I downloaded and printed the Auto VE tutorial, I see this is from 2007. Is this still a safe guide to follow? I only see that it recommends 12 PID's to log, where as the other guide I was reading had 24 PID's to log.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
BTW, this is a LS1B with an LC1 wideband via serial on a v2.

Hi Nver2loud,

I am reasonably new to tuning. The advice I have been given is to start with the Calc Vet tune. This will bring your VE and Maf Tables to an acceptable condition for your Vehicle. I am also running the LS1B and an LC1 (which is hooked up via a serial lead).

The Calc Vet method is very easy to do.

Cheers,
Laychut

[Nver2loud]

Lay, thanks for the info. Which write up did you use to go through with the calc.vet? Did you have any troubles validating your PID's?

[Laychut]

Hi Nver2loud,

I have attached the two documents I downloaded from the Tutorial section from this forum. These are what I went off for my directions for Calc Vet. You need to read both of them through a couple of times to fully grasp and understand the proceedure. There is always something that you may over look until you are at that stage of the process.

Joecar is a good source of information. I have bounced any questions of him when I am not sure.

The key to the PIDs is knowing what other PIDs also need to be seclected before each PID is considered valid. If you have a PID that should be valid, but is showing as not valid, you can right clicking on the PID and then click info and this will tell you why it in not valid.

I have attached the latest Calc PIDs that Joecar gave me the other day. Calc PIDs are the backbone of the Calc Vet and Calc MAF proceedures.

If your WBO2 and your Calc PIDs are not set up correctly then the proceedures will not work. I have attached the PIDs file I use.

Is your LC1 set up serial or analog? If your LC1 is set up anolog then you will have to amend the Calc PID txt file. Joecar would be the best to talk to about that. He is the right up to speed with calc PIDs.

13000
13001
13002
13003

I hope these help!

Cheers,
laychut

[Nver2loud]

Now this may sound really dumb...But I have tried to save the calc.pid files from other threads, and is this supposed to self populate a PID list when opened???

[joecar]

Now this may sound really dumb...But I have tried to save the calc.pid files from other threads, and is this supposed to self populate a PID list when opened???No, the calc pid provides the pids...

Laychut's file CALC.VET.pit selects those pids when you open this file from the PIDs tab.

[joecar]

AutoVE is a special case of Calc.MAFT... it is easy enough to do AutoVE as it is to do Calc.MAFT.

AutoMAF is a special case of Calc.VET... it is easy enough to do either one.

Calc.VET probably requires the least amount of preparation... the initial attempt can be done with VE still enabled since the transient filter will remove VE contribution.


Have a read thru this: Summary Notes, Post #29 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14188-Summary-Notes&p=148674&viewfull=1#post148674)

[Laychut]

Now this may sound really dumb...But I have tried to save the calc.pid files from other threads, and is this supposed to self populate a PID list when opened???

Hi Nver2loud,

I am not sure how much of a play you have had with Scantool V7.5, but if you need a bit of a walk through on how to select the PIDs in scan tool I have attached a link to a good interactive tutorial.

http://download.efilive.com/Tutorials/Interactive/How to Create a PID List.htm

Below is a Screen dump of where you need to copy the Calc PIDs. When you try to copy it here it will ask if you want to replace the existing copy. If this is the original Calc PID file that came when you installed the scantool software then select yes. If you have previous replace this file with a modified Calc PID file then you may want to compare the files and add the additional calculations to that file. If this is the case, I can do that for you if you are not sure how to do it.

13011

Most of your Calc PIDs will be found in the "Tune" or "Tuning" system (screen dumps below). If you open the Calc PID.txt file and scroll right down you will see a column called " System". This will tell you under what system you will find the PID you are chasing (see screen dump below).

13012 13013 13014

Hope this helps!

Cheers,

Laychut

[Nver2loud]

Hey there Fellas,
Sorry I have been very busy with work, and the wife has me building a new deck so my car has been on the back burner. I have not even driven it in 3 weeks. Anyways.....I loaded up Laychuts Calc.VET PID list and surprisingly my computer let it open right up with no issues. However...Some are unvalidated? Dynamic air temp, Equivelance ratio, H02 s1/s2, Mass air raw frequency and KR. So after I read the write up again to be fresh with it, I can just go log with this and hit cells? In the write up is there a specific Map I should make??? Currently I have a VET average and Selben listed as I was originally going to do an autove.

thanks in advance!

[joecar]

When you connect the scantool to the vehicle, do Info->Validate PIDs; you may have to do File->Enter VIN and File->Select Controller also.

[joecar]

If you're going to do AutoVE (VE enabled, MAF disabled, CL/Trims disabled, wideband only) then make these maps:
- CALC.WO2BEN map matching VE table (RPM x MAP),
- CALC.MAFT map matching MAF table (1 x MAFFREQ) if your OS supports the pid GM.VETABLE_DMA.


If you're going to do AutoMAF (VE disabled, MAF enabled, CL/Trims disabled, wideband only) then make these maps:
- CALC.WO2BEN map matching MAF table (1 x MAFFREQ),
- CALC.VET map matching VE table (RPM x MAP).

[Nver2loud]

So another thing I am wondering is, how do I verify that my MAF frequencies are spot on? Meaning that hopefully it was not tampered with before I bought the vehicle? Or does this not matter?

[joecar]

You would do AutoMAF to correct the MAF using wideband correction.

[Nver2loud]

Hey guys! Yes I am finally getting around to having some free time to drive my car although its 100 degrees out here. I honestly have no idea where I went wrong, as nothing will datalog? After re-reading the post, I think i may have not been logging the correct things. Can you take a look? Attached are my log, and my current tune. I did notice its still running about as rich as prior even in this intense heat. Running at about 9.8 on my wideband, I did just calibrate it as well.

[joecar]

Can you post screenshots of your AutoMAF BEN map...

I'll look at your files later tonite.

[Nver2loud]

Well, I guess thats one of the problems! I just looked at it again and its a SELBEN? MAFFREQ for the rows and RPM for the columns but that doesnt even make sense as it goes from 15 to 105. Everything logged in the 105 column as well. Also, when i tried to validate my PID's from the Calc.VET the one it keeps giving me an error on with an X through it is Dynamic air temperature. I also have another logged graph and its VET average, with RPM on the rows and MAP for the columns. Everything it logged showed up as 0's.

[Nver2loud]

I also couldnt do a screen shot, not quite sure how to do that.

[Mikz86ta]

On your keyboard hit 'Print Screen' when you have the screen up you want to show as a picture.
Then open MS Paint from your Windows programs. Start>All Programs>Accessories>Paint.
Then Paste on there and save the image under a name u want it to be.

Now u have a screen shot u can show here

[joecar]

Post a screenshot and also your current calc_pids.txt file...

Does your PCM/OS support the pid DYNAIRTMP_DMA...? If not, the Calc.VET tutorial thread explains how to use your B4901 table to make a lookup calc pid for it... (I can show you how).

[joecar]

I think PE 1.13-1.14 EQR is a little lean for WOT... try 1.17.

At WOT your MAP drops from 98 kPa down to 87 kPa, something is wrong with your intake duct.

Your IAT is quite hot... what was the ambient air temperature on the day the log was taken...?

Your IFR table is incorrect (it steps down and then ramps up...!?) you won't be able to tune MAF and VE with that... no good!!!

[Nver2loud]

Post a screenshot and also your current calc_pids.txt file...

Like those links??
Oh, and BTW, I tried to modify my SELBEN thing to "copy and paste with labels" and this is what I ended up with, It makes no sense to me how that would actually work.


Does your PCM/OS support the pid DYNAIRTMP_DMA...? If not, the Calc.VET tutorial thread explains how to use your B4901 table to make a lookup calc pid for it... (I can show you how).

That I am not sure of? How would I find that out?

And for the other questions which I cant currently quote...the guy originally helping with my tune told me to do that to the injector flow rate..not sure why.
They are stock 28lb injectors for an ls6.
For the temp on the intake temp sensor, yes it was hot that day, around 98-100 degrees out and its not cooling down anytime soon...tomorrow is going to be like 105.
Something wrong with my intake duct? as in like the duct itself from the MAF to the manifold? I have tried a propane test looking for a leak and found no problems. Also, this is the 2nd MAP sensor and 2nd intake manifold, my results yielded odd MAP values last year as well. It is now an LS6 manifold vs last years Ls1.
For the PE being lean, I am not quite sure what screen to set that at.

I am really starting to dislike this car....At least it still runs, just sucks I wasted the money putting a new cam in it, etc, and it still runs the same as it always has with black crap all over my bumper!!!

[Mikz86ta]

Hope I was helpful and clear on how to post the screen shot and convert it.

[Nver2loud]

Hope I was helpful and clear on how to post the screen shot and convert it.

Yeah, however something is not allowing my computer to do a print screen, but ended up finding a different way to do it as youve seen. Thanks again.

Anybody else have some ideas for the other portions to try to fix this???

[Mikz86ta]

Oh ok, well glad u got it going. Now hopefully someone more knowledgable like Joe will chime in when he/they can

[Laychut]

Hi Nver2loud,
You may want to recheck your Selben map. I am getting different numbers from your log than the screen dump you posted.

Also you need to validate/select DYNAIRTMP. With out this the VET Calc can not be calculated because it uses Calc VEN for it's calculation. Calc VEN uses DYNAIRTMP for it's calculation. This is most likely why you are just seeing Zeros in your VET map.

Confused? :lookaround:
I know I was until I read the Calc PID file a few times.

Hook your laptop up to your car using EFILIVE Scan 7.5. Ensure the "Supported" box is checked (directly above the discription column). Once connected only your supported PIDs should be visible. If DYNAIRTMP is not present then you will need to used the calc PID Joecar referred to.

Have you fixed your IFR table yet? You will be wasting your time doing any more logging until this is corrected. I have attached a spreadsheet I found on this forum. If you know the values required, then it should get you back on track.

13475

Cheers,

[Nver2loud]

Thanks for the tips again Lay! I am so stressed with this, only because I can usually figure things out pretty quickly but everytime I have someone look at what I got going on im just told that its messed up, and I dont know how to fix it! The MAP issue has been told to me a few times, but no idea how to fix it, or if its actually a problem. I am going to start over with the new calc pid file and see what happens. I am not sure if i should just set my IFR back to the stock settings or what? The car was running so rich at idle/part throttle that it was almost about to die. Thats when a tuner told me to do that. You guys are my last resort here before I put my stock cam back in and say screw it!

[Nver2loud]

The key to the PIDs is knowing what other PIDs also need to be seclected before each PID is considered valid. If you have a PID that should be valid, but is showing as not valid, you can right clicking on the PID and then click info and this will tell you why it in not valid.

Ok, I just tried to get the info on the PID of Dynamic Air temp, and "more info" is grayed out, not an option. All I have is Imperial/Metric, background color, font and revert. All of the others I have a "more info" button.

[Mikz86ta]

Sometimes there is a couple of each PID's. Like my truck shows a SAE and a GM. One when connectred to my trucks PCM (Chevy LS1B PCM) shows up and the other does not. IDK if its ur issue but just throwing that info out there. Hope this helps..if not sorry

[Mikz86ta]

On the injectors are they stock for your motor? Or did yours come stock with someting else. From what Joe said there is an irregular dip and jump which I am certain will cause many issues. Id go to filedepo and download a couple stock files of cars that use your same motor or injectors...compare their settings. At minimum Id copy and paste one that looks correct.
I had a stock injector file but didnt see any newer LSx injectors.

Also is your FPR good? again just thinking out loud obvious stuff to me that may slip ones mind

[Nver2loud]

I went and downloaded a tune for a 02 z06 just to see what the IFR table looks like as I have put in the larger 28? lb injectors. I will paste that in. I am wondering if i should take a stock MAF table from a 00 as well as mine seems to be different. At least to get me started. I still need to check on why it dips so low on kpa at WOT. I have long tube headers B&B bullet exhaust and a Texas speed 228r cam. Out front i have an ls6 intake and a stock duct and stock housing with a K&N.
I will check to see if there is a different PID as well...Im just going off of the calc.pid list that was at the beginning of this thread.

[Laychut]

Hi Nver2loud,
Most of the time our problems are something small that we have missed. This is why it pays to read the tutorials over an over again.
I have been tempted to make up a checklist to support the Cal Vet tutorial. One day when I get time.

Please don't get discouraged!

You may be having a few headaches now, but once everything is set up you will be glad you persevered.

From what I seen your current IFR would be very rich at low RPM. It does not make sense to me why you were told to set it up this way. Your injectors should have come with some documentation that will have the information you need for the spreadsheet I sent you.
If not there are plenty of websites with the info if you know the brand and part number of your injectors. You can not afford to be flippent when it comes to your IFR! Your IFR are set values that must be right. This is why it is the first thing you check. Any actions with out doing this will be a waste of time.

As for your airflow issue, I would start with the Aircleaner and work back. Only for a quick test I would remove the air cleaner and see if your air flow improves.
If it does, then maybe you do not have a big enough air filter (or a blocked one). From there work back to the engine. What diameter pipework do you have to the engine?

Cheers,

[Nver2loud]

Sometimes there is a couple of each PID's. Like my truck shows a SAE and a GM. One when connectred to my trucks PCM (Chevy LS1B PCM) shows up and the other does not. IDK if its ur issue but just throwing that info out there. Hope this helps..if not sorry

Thanks for that tip. I started doing some google searching and it brought me back to the forum. APPARENTLY my OS system which is 12593359 is not defined to use the GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA unless I am reading this incorrectly. Not sure how I am going to get this to actually work.

Once I figure this out, I can do some logging. I have pasted a stock LS6 injector IFR into my tune, and now I just need to also figure out what other changes I need to make before uploading this tune and going to log.

[Nver2loud]

Also...this may sound really dumb, but was I supposed to do something with the calc_pids.txt???

[joecar]

Post a screenshot and also your current calc_pids.txt file...

Does your PCM/OS support the pid DYNAIRTMP_DMA...? If not, the Calc.VET tutorial thread explains how to use your B4901 table to make a lookup calc pid for it... (I can show you how).


Thanks for that tip. I started doing some google searching and it brought me back to the forum. APPARENTLY my OS system which is 12593359 is not defined to use the GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA unless I am reading this incorrectly. Not sure how I am going to get this to actually work.

Once I figure this out, I can do some logging. I have pasted a stock LS6 injector IFR into my tune, and now I just need to also figure out what other changes I need to make before uploading this tune and going to log.


Also...this may sound really dumb, but was I supposed to do something with the calc_pids.txt???Post your calc_pids.txt here and the most current tune file you're using...

after we edit your calc_pids.txt file to do DAT (dynamic air temp) those zero's in your VET map will become valid data.

[joecar]

[ sorry, I've been out of town for a few days ]

[joecar]

What does your intake duct look like (pics...) and what MAF and air filter do you have...?

[Nver2loud]

I have not changed the Calc_Pids.txt? I am not sure where this goes, but I printed the one from the beginning of this thread. It basically was jibberish to me however, as it did not make a heck of a lot of sense. Am I supposed to upload that somewhere??? I have not seen it in a writeup.
I have already posted my current tune, you guys were saying how my IFR scaling is way off base. I have not uploaded a new tune to the car yet. The only thing I have changed for the next upload is my IFR scaling to a stock 03 z06 injector (which the car has).

My intake duct is a stock 00 corvette duct, picture likely not necessary. Also, is the stock airbox with a K&N drop in filter. MAF is unknown, it could be stock, it could be not. I have noted that already a while back, as I have no way to verify if the MAF readings are correct.

[Nver2loud]

Sorry if I seem to be getting extremely frustrated. But all these posts make this seem so easy, and apparently either there is something wrong with my car, with my computer, or myself. Likely all 3 or just the last...who knows.

[joecar]

N2L,

Ah, I see your calc_pids.txt file in post #22 above...

since your PCM does not have the GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA pid, I'll construct one for your from your tune file in post #15, give me a couple of hours (takes a few minutes but I can't do it right now)...


the problem is that your PCM does not support that pids (or rather the scantool can't locate that data in your PCM).

[joecar]

Your B4001 IFR has a huge kink in it, see attached pic...

13487.

that huge kink is going to make tuning difficult (your injector flow rate does not behave like that at all).

[Nver2loud]

N2L,

Ah, I see your calc_pids.txt file in post #22 above...

since your PCM does not have the GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA pid, I'll construct one for your from your tune file in post #15, give me a couple of hours (takes a few minutes but I can't do it right now)...


the problem is that your PCM does not support that pids (or rather the scantool can't locate that data in your PCM).

Thanks Joe! I actually was doing some googling and it brought me to a post of yours on ls1tech about putting the calc_pids.text into the v7.5 user configuration. I have done that from the one i dumped on my desktop last week, but it looks like I had already done that back on april 14th of this year....probably when I started having this round-about issue :)

[joecar]

N2L,

Here is calc_pids.txt file to which I added the pid CALC.DAT constructed from table B4901 from your tune file Saf.tun from post #15 above.

[joecar]

What is your measured rail pressure...?


What injectors do you have (flowrate @ what pressure)...?


Car is 2000 Corvette, correct...?

[joecar]

I reread thru the thread, you said the injectors are the stock LS6 28 lb/hr injectors...

ok, do this, goto www.tunefiledepot.com (http://www.tunefiledepot.com) and find a 2002 Corvette Z06/LS6 file and copy all of the injector tables into your tune file.

[picnic_george]

I tried the calVE deal and couldn't get it to work on my 98 pcm, obviously I must have missed something but there was a certain pid they wanted and I couldn't get it to work. I just stuck with autoVE and autoMAF :shrug: Works for me, my car runs great. Just takes a bit longer to do form what I understand. No biggie.

[joecar]

I tried the calVE deal and couldn't get it to work on my 98 pcm, obviously I must have missed something but there was a certain pid they wanted and I couldn't get it to work. I just stuck with autoVE and autoMAF :shrug: Works for me, my car runs great. Just takes a bit longer to do form what I understand. No biggie.If you post your tune file and calc_pids.txt file I can make that pid for you (CALC.DAT based on B4901 lookup).

[Nver2loud]

Ok, I will try to post this again, as last time it timed out and lost my text!

My buddy has needed his v2 cable so I could not work on my car for the last 1 1/2 weeks or so.
I have tried to use the new list, but i still have 2 red x's. Attached are my new tune to upload in which I have corrected my injector tables, all of them to match a 2003 z06 in which these injectors are. Stock rail pressure in which i think it used to read about 58-59 psi or something.
Which log will this be? a Calc.vet? What other changes to my tune will I need to do in order to make this work?

Thanks for everybody's patience!

[Nver2loud]

And my calc_pids.txt is the file on reply #43. Dropped into the user configuration folder of EFI live V7.5

[joecar]

Ok, I will try to post this again, as last time it timed out and lost my text!

My buddy has needed his v2 cable so I could not work on my car for the last 1 1/2 weeks or so.
I have tried to use the new list, but i still have 2 red x's. Attached are my new tune to upload in which I have corrected my injector tables, all of them to match a 2003 z06 in which these injectors are. Stock rail pressure in which i think it used to read about 58-59 psi or something.
Which log will this be? a Calc.vet? What other changes to my tune will I need to do in order to make this work?

Thanks for everybody's patience!On the PIDs tab do this:

on each pids with a red X thru it, do rightclick->More Info and see which other pid it says it needs, then go and select that pid also;

repeat that until none of your selected pids have red X thru them;

save to file as CALC.VET.pid.

[joecar]

The log file is called xxxx.efi

[joecar]

Ok, your B4001 looks much better...

I'll take a closer look at your tune file tomorrow and I'll post a more complete Calc.VET.pids file (for automatically selecting pids)...


Ok, understood, your calc_pids.txt file is from post #43 above.

[joecar]

Do this before proceeding to log:


On the PIDs tab do this:

on each pids with a red X thru it, do rightclick->More Info and see which other pid it says it needs, then go and select that pid also;

repeat that until none of your selected pids have red X thru them;

save to file as CALC.VET.pid.

[Nver2loud]

It wanted a B4901 in which I added. Dynamic air temp, CALC.DAT is now up and running. However the other Dyamic air temp GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA still does not work, and when I try to get the "more info" button it is just grayed out.

[joecar]

Your CALC.DAT is calculated from CALC.B4901 and does not require GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA (which your PCM does not support)...

so you can un-select GM.DYNAIRTMP_DMA.

[Nver2loud]

Yeah!!! so I can finally go run a log hopefully!!!! Hopefully I select and de-select all the right stuff prior to uploading my tune :)

[joecar]

After you select your pids (and there are none with red X thru them), save them into a file (click the Save button on the PID tab's sub-toolbar).

[Nver2loud]

Ok, I finally got some time today, not much and I almost ran out of gas, but hey! I feel like im making progress. I looked at the logs however and to me, they did not look right. However...I have been wrong during most of this process. Is this a worthwhile log? I had about 10 runs in there as full 3rd gear runs from 1k rpm to redline. A bunch of highway cruising and some in town cruising as well.

Let me know what you think, and thanks again for helping me through this whole process! I am just so releived I finally was able to log some info and didnt get "too" discouraged :)

[Nver2loud]

I have been doing reading and what not for most of the afternoon. I have tried to copy all cells into my b0101 and well...its way off. I know there must be something stupid I did and someone can get a laugh out of this. I however, have just wasted lots of time. I dont think what I was logging is correct in any which way, but maybe there is more to it than the write ups?

[joecar]

Log looks ok, I can get it to make a map ok;

try to keep the throttle steady, make any throttle changes steady (drag the brakes if you have to)...

remember to apply the transient filter.

[joecar]

Your PE at EQR 1.14 is a little lean, try going to EQR 1.165.

[joecar]

Your B4001 IFR table is wrong, it will make tuning harder... (it steps down at MANVAC=5kPa).

[Nver2loud]

Log looks ok, I can get it to make a map ok;

try to keep the throttle steady, make any throttle changes steady (drag the brakes if you have to)...

remember to apply the transient filter.

Throttle steady? Were my full throttle portions not sufficient? I guess I dont know how I could make a 45 minute log with steady throttle? I have not seen an option for a transient filter.

[Nver2loud]

Your PE at EQR 1.14 is a little lean, try going to EQR 1.165.


I set everything to 1.16 per the guide I was pretty sure?



Your B4001 IFR table is wrong, it will make tuning harder... (it steps down at MANVAC=5kPa).
I do not see where that is. This is a stock 2003 Z06 IFR table. It looks pretty straight to me, except a minor change at 25 as well as 70?

[joecar]

Throttle steady? Were my full throttle portions not sufficient? I guess I dont know how I could make a 45 minute log with steady throttle? I have not seen an option for a transient filter.I mean try to make throttle changes progressive and then keep throttle steady where it is as RPM climbs... if you move the throttle too much the airflow conditions become transient rather than steady state, this means the filter (see below) will remove a lot more of your data; if you operate the throttle in a manner which promotes steady state airflow conditions, then the filter will exclude less data...

i.e. each of the map cells will have more hits;

you want to hit each cell on the way up with as many hits as possible (do you see how fast your engine spins up, that means it's not hitting each cell with enough hits; to help this the engine needs to see more load (e.g. dragging the brakes, or running on a loadable dyno)).


You should be able to get enough good data in a 20 minute log.

Transient Filter:

On the Maps tab, hover your cursor over the buttons, you will see these two:
- Edit Filter Settings,
- Apply or Remove Filter;

in the filter settings, look at the Base Efficiency Numerator filter, you can use this if you remove these conditions from it:
- FTC condition (unless, of course, you logged FTC),
- RPM is less than or equal to 2500 (just remove this one).

Refer to the Calc.VET thread and the Calc.VET Summary thread it points to.

[Nver2loud]

Were my logs collecting the right data? To me, they did not look right at all. When I went to paste the data in, it was like 2's and 3's vs like 60-90 or something. I cannot even check my map now as it somehow disappeared. I also tried to copy and paste the SELBEN into my MAF table and well...it was WAY off. This makes me think I am not even monitoring the right data as from everything I read this should be a "copy and paste" operation once complete. Also, if everything I do is full throttle and more than 2500 rpm, how is this possibly tuning for driveability?

[joecar]

Post a screenshot showing your maps... (in the map properties, on each tab checkmark Show Units and Show Names).

[joecar]

Full throttle and above 2500 rpm...? I don't understand....?

Calc.VET gives great driveability.

Look at the transient filter, look at each term and think about how they're joined together...

(delete the <2500 rpm term, and if you didn't log FTC delete the term using FTC=21)

pm me your phone number...

[Nver2loud]

I did not apply filters as of yet, as I am not sure this even looks right in the first place? A filter can be added at any time, as the data is already logged correct? You just build it, and it will appear? On the SELBEN, there is no data before the 2650? Also, its high in the beginning, but upwards in the hz scale there is barely anything?

[Nver2loud]

Looking through some of the other logs this morning from that run, and I cannot for the life of me figure out why this happens. I see it quite often on my logs and although im extremely far from a tuner, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to know that 8.2 KR is a very very bad thing :) This was likely in 4th gear as I was trying to get full gear WOT runs. Things I should look at?

EDIT: Here is another spot as well with a more jagged KR.

[joecar]

I did not apply filters as of yet, as I am not sure this even looks right in the first place? A filter can be added at any time, as the data is already logged correct? You just build it, and it will appear? On the SELBEN, there is no data before the 2650? Also, its high in the beginning, but upwards in the hz scale there is barely anything?On the maps display, click the button labelled x-bar (x with a bar over it), this shows the average value for each cell (over all the hits on that cell)...

you pics show you have the button labelled n clicked, this shows the cell hit counts.

[joecar]

In the map properties, goto the Cell tab, and checkmark Constrain Cell Size, this will narrow down the appearance of the wide map.

[joecar]

Looking through some of the other logs this morning from that run, and I cannot for the life of me figure out why this happens. I see it quite often on my logs and although im extremely far from a tuner, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to know that 8.2 KR is a very very bad thing :) This was likely in 4th gear as I was trying to get full gear WOT runs. Things I should look at?

EDIT: Here is another spot as well with a more jagged KR.The single (non-jagged) KR is probably false knock (the knock sensors picked up some other noise).

The multiple occurance (jagged, sawtoothed) is real knock as this is how detonation behaves... this instance is probably due to being lean (look at LTFT's just before going WOT).

[Nver2loud]

The single (non-jagged) KR is probably false knock (the knock sensors picked up some other noise).

The multiple occurance (jagged, sawtoothed) is real knock as this is how detonation behaves... this instance is probably due to being lean (look at LTFT's just before going WOT).

Should I be de-sensitisfying my knock sensors then if they are picking up false knock once the tune is more on base?

here are those maps...

[joecar]

Only if it happens regularly (multiple single occurrances in a log file), otherwise if it is a one-off occurrence it's best to leave it alone.

[joecar]

On each of those maps, goto map properties, and on the Data tab increase the Precision to 4 decimal places (and remember to save the properties).

[joecar]

Those maps look like they contain reasonable values.

[joecar]

Remember this:

you can correct VE and calculate MAF from the same log file, or vice-versa... but you cannot correct both nor calculate both from the same log file.

[Nver2loud]

Well, its looking better! I still pasted the vet table in, and it was really messed up?

[joecar]

What did you paste into the VE table...?

In post #79, the first pic is WO2BEN vs RPM x MAP... that should not be pasted into your VE table...

you would paste in CALC.VET vs RPM x MAP into your VE table...

i.e. you would change the Data parameter to CACL.VET (with the same units as your VE table).

[Nver2loud]

I tried to paste the CYCLAIR into my b0101. Is this not correct? I know you said I cant correct MAF and VE at the same time, so should I paste my MAF table in instead?

[joecar]

That is not correct because CYLAIR has units [g] whereas B0101 VE table has units [g*K/kPa] which is same as CALC.VET [g*K/kPa]...

so you need to make a map of CALC.VET [g*K/kPa]... i.e. CALC.VET.VE (.VE is shorthand for [g*K/kPa])

[Nver2loud]

So I am slightly confused. I had posted my screenshots of the logs, and they looked good. Where is it that I can paste this info?

[Nver2loud]

I also do not see how to remove the FTC under my filter parameters?

[joecar]

In the filter properties, you highlight the row starting containing {GM.FTC} and click Remove...

and you also want to remove the line saying {SAE.RPM} less than or equal to 2500.


13573

[Nver2loud]

Ok, here is what I got now. Still does not seem paste-able right? I did not post the MAF table. When I put the filters in, I did not notice any changes just an fyi.

[joecar]

Ok, here is what I got now. Still does not seem paste-able right? I did not post the MAF table. When I put the filters in, I did not notice any changes just an fyi.Much better, your VE g*K/kPa map looks good, paste this into your VE table (make sure your VE table is displayed in g*K/kPa units), and manually flatten out the few spikes that appear at 6000 and 6400 rpm...

save as new file, and compare to previous file.

Yes, the filter may not make any difference if you have good data.

Your MAF SELBEN map in a previous post looked correct.

[Nver2loud]

I have played with this a bit, and I cannot for the life of me figure out how to change my b0101 into g*K/kPa????? The only thing I can figure out is to change it from imperial to metric but that wont change the calculation?

[slows10]

Display/change efilive property settings (Alt+enter) Open the tune tool and right under the window tab there is the hand with the finger pointing at the notebook picture icon. Click on that. Or (Alt+Enter)

[joecar]

Edit->Properties and the VE units are on the first tab.

[Nver2loud]

Well I'll be damned! I finally got it to work!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you all so much!!!! Now, hopefully I can drive the car soon, with this tune uploaded and I will try to get a more specific log with load applied, ie brakes. Then I will paste the table and smooth it again. At that time I will need to try to figure out how to do the MAF tuning.

Once again, thank you all for your patience with me!

[joecar]

Do very minor smoothing only... i.e. level out any large spikes or sinkholes.


On each successive iteration, you should observe the following:
- the CALC.VET VE map should look the same (i.e. VE will not change much at all);
- the CALC.SELBEN MAF map should contain values very close to 1.00+/-0.01 (i.e. MAF will not change much at all).

[joecar]

The Calc.VET method does both MAF correction and VE calculation at the same time

( note the difference between the words correction and calculation )

( correction = multiplied by wideband/LTFT BEN factor )
( calculation = calculated using physics IGL equation )

[Nver2loud]

A bit ago I loaded up that tune after some smoothing of the majorly spiked areas and went to try some more logging. I didnt even notice that it was coming up as zero's because I did not have the calc.vet pid list loaded...grrrrrrr. So I understand the correction and calculation, however how am I able to flip to which one I want to fix?? So since I just upaded my VE table, am assuming that is my VE correction? How do I load this so that I can complete MAF correction?

[Nver2loud]

I should also note I updated what I log, so I now have speed and timing...my KR is really bad at very low rpm's and as they climb the KR goes away. It cuts all the way down to 5 degrees at low rpm, is that normal??

[joecar]

Post screenshots of your new maps.

[Nver2loud]

Maybe it just does this because its so low in RPM? This was a full 3rd gear run with brakes applied from idle to RPM. Also, does my new VE MAP still look too jagged? I did the spikes and large drops, but it still doesnt seem right to me.

[Nver2loud]

Another KR spike

[joecar]

Are you doing both VE and MAF tables (VE is pasted-with-labels, MAF is paste-multiplied-with-label)...?

[Nver2loud]

Ummm, nope, oops. I did not do anything with the MAF table at all?

[joecar]

Ok do this: roughly smooth over the VE table and try again...

but keep in mind if you're doing Calc.VET you have to do both VE and MAF tables at the same time.

Are you doing Calc.VET or AutoVE (MAF disabled)...?

[Nver2loud]

Would this be a paste and multiply by 10%? If so, it looks somewhat similiar to what the MAF table was thank god.

[Nver2loud]

I did not disable the MAF. I thought that did not need to be done for the operation I was doing?

[joecar]

Would this be a paste and multiply by 10%? If so, it looks somewhat similiar to what the MAF table was thank god.No, just straight paste-mulitply (no percent scaling).

[joecar]

Calc.VET works with MAF enabled...

you would disable the VE (by setting B0120 to zero), but since VE is used during transients you can let the transient filter remove any VE contribution (by virtue of ignoring transient data, of which the VE is)...

then the CALC.SELBEN map (unit-less multiplier close to 1) paste-multiplies into the MAF B5001 table (units g/s),
and the CALC.VET map (units g*K/kPa) pastes into the VE B0101 table (same units as map, g*K/kPa);

and take note that the CALC.VET values are calculated from the corrected MAF values (i.e. SAE.MAF * CALC.SELBEN);

this is what makes Calc.VET so easy to do... :)

[Nver2loud]

Ok, I re-pasted my MAF table in with no % and wow, what a change....It lowered everything significantly. I have also tried to smooth my tables some more but good god, I swear its messing up. I click on the high spots, and I open the 2d graph and will change the high spots, but it does not change the cells I selected in the "mountain" Ok, so just to clarify, if I am doing Calc.VET I do not need to do anything with my MAF as far as disabling and I can change my MAF table and my VE all in one log session, correct?

[Nver2loud]

It dropped like 100 g/sec towards the end? Is that normal??

[joecar]

...
Ok, so just to clarify, if I am doing Calc.VET I do not need to do anything with my MAF as far as disabling and I can change my MAF table and my VE all in one log session, correct?Yes, correct on all points...

( as long as you apply the transient filter before applying the maps to the VE and MAF )

[joecar]

...
I have also tried to smooth my tables some more but good god, I swear its messing up. I click on the high spots, and I open the 2d graph and will change the high spots, but it does not change the cells I selected in the "mountain"
...Instead, do this:

those cells that are spikes or holes, simply paste into that cell a value from the surrounding cells.

[joecar]

Before applying a map, check the units of the map and the units of the table it is going to be applied to.

[joecar]

It dropped like 100 g/sec towards the end? Is that normal??Go with that change, flash it into the PCM, take another log...

if it is working correctly, the new log will show the following:
- CALC.SELBEN map will now contain mostly 0.99-1.01 (i.e. 1.00+/-0.01) for the same range;
- CALC.VET map will now be the same as B0101 table (i.e. pasting in makes hardly any change).

Post current tune flashed into your PCM and the log file that came from it (the relationship between the two is important).

[Nver2loud]

I have already dumped the info into my tune and loaded it into the car, I have yet to drive it since to see how it does....But heres what I had for a scan log, and this is what my tune looks like now. I will soon enough be able to drive it and get a new log file to go with this posted tune.

[Nver2loud]

Also, just to clarify, I have been pasting this SELBEN log into my MAF freq table B5001....and the VET g*K/kPa into B0101

[joecar]

I have already dumped the info into my tune and loaded it into the car, I have yet to drive it since to see how it does....But heres what I had for a scan log, and this is what my tune looks like now. I will soon enough be able to drive it and get a new log file to go with this posted tune.Is that log file before or after that tune file (in post #112)...?


The B0101 in that tunefile doesn't look like the CALC.VET g*K/kPa map (using your calc_pids.txt file from post #43 above)...

[joecar]

Post screenshots of your maps as you proceed.

[Nver2loud]

The log is before the tune file. I have already modified the file and pasted the new data in. I was going to run a new log hopefully today to show an after log....Howover I think the motherboard died on my home laptop, and my work laptop doesnt allow me to put EFI live on it. It may be a few days before I have a replacement and hopefully I can scavenge things off my hard drive or I will be back to square one :(

[joecar]

No worries, take your time.

[Nver2loud]

Ok, so heres a twist, not really related to this file :) I bought a new laptop, I am not able to retrieve anything from my old hard drive... I have another person looking at it to see if they can salvage any data. Can I download the new v8 or do I need to stay with v7.5? Will it mess anything up as far as the tune that is in my car? Now I will also have to fight to redo my calc.VET.PID file that took so long to get to work :(

[joecar]

If you have FlashScan V1 then you need only V7 software (get latest).

If you have FlashScan V2 then you need both V7 and V8 software (get latest).


[ V7 = scantool/tunetool; V8 = BBx config tools + ECM read/write for later ECMs ]


Your calc_pids.txt file is located in post #43 of this thread.

[ the filr calc.vet.pid is the save of the pid selection, this can be recreated easily ]

Your maps and charts can be recreated easily.

You will have to log again if you can't recover the log files.

[Nver2loud]

Ok, new laptop up and running!! Could not recover anything yet from my old hard drive, but the 2nd time around even a novice like me can make maps, etc easily!!! Take a look at these two and let me know what you think. It looks like its ALOT closer to 1 for my SELBEN now, which is a bonus I do believe...

I should note that in this tune, this is PRIOR to me updating with this scan information. I had also smoothed a little bit more and forgot to upload it to my car before logging.

[Nver2loud]

Ok, I must have screwed up something. Why is it that I cannot paste this into my b0101? It completely destroys the graph when I do this...I have tried paste with labels, paste and multiply also, and just paste. SELBEN i pasted with labels and multiply and the graph barely moved. Just needs a small amount of smoothing.

[joecar]

Post a screenshot of your map (make sure it shows cell/axis units)...

[Nver2loud]

Here they are, SELBEN is long so i tried to put it on 2

[joecar]

The g*K/kPa map (image 1, VET.png) should pasted into B0101 (if B0101 has units g*K/kPa).

The other images show CYLAIR rather than SELBEN... if you have the SELBEN map then it should paste-multiply into B5001.

edit: my mistake, I did not pay attention (the map title says SELBEN, the column title says CYLAIR_DMA)


Note: in both cases use the "with labels" form of the paste (i.e. paste-with-labels into B0101, and paste-multiply-with-labels into B5001).

[joecar]

Post a before/after pic of your B0101...

[Nver2loud]

Here is b0101 and b5001 before and after

[Nver2loud]

I think I am confused as I thought I was logging SELBEN, is this not the one to get paste/multiply into 5001?

[Nver2loud]

Maybe this one is easier to read...I like the graph for adjusting things.

[Nver2loud]

Sorry to blow this up with pictures, but at least ill have them available for you!!! Is this too much editing? Should I add things in those low areas?? or make the peaks lower?

[joecar]

I think I am confused as I thought I was logging SELBEN, is this not the one to get paste/multiply into 5001?The pic of the MAF map in post #123 showed CYLAIR_DMA (look at the map's title bar) rather than SELBEN...

edit: my mistake, I did not pay attention (the map title says SELBEN, the column title says CYLAIR_DMA)


just make sure you're paste=multiplying SELBEN into B5001...

for the MAF map, go into map properties, goto Data tab, and select CALC.SELBEN, checkmark show units, then save the properties.

[joecar]

Looking at your after B0101, go in and manually flatten out the spikes and then post an image of that.

[joecar]

Pics are good to help see what is going on :cheers:

[Nver2loud]

The pic of the MAF map in post #123 showed CYLAIR_DMA (look at the map's title bar) rather than SELBEN...

just make sure you're paste=multiplying SELBEN into B5001...

for the MAF map, go into map properties, goto Data tab, and select CALC.SELBEN, checkmark show units, then save the properties.

Went in to check this, I had to select "names and selected" to see the calc.selben. This is on the correct one. I had even tried to change what it was calculcating to the cyclair and it changed the map to display cyclair for both names. I went back to Calc.selben and it still says cyclair for the lower name???

[Nver2loud]

Looking at your after B0101, go in and manually flatten out the spikes and then post an image of that.


Do I need to flatten more than what it shows in post #129?

[Nver2loud]

Went in to check this, I had to select "names and selected" to see the calc.selben. This is on the correct one. I had even tried to change what it was calculcating to the cyclair and it changed the map to display cyclair for both names. I went back to Calc.selben and it still says cyclair for the lower name???

I clicked on a few show units

[joecar]

Went in to check this, I had to select "names and selected" to see the calc.selben. This is on the correct one. I had even tried to change what it was calculcating to the cyclair and it changed the map to display cyclair for both names. I went back to Calc.selben and it still says cyclair for the lower name???When you change it back to SELBEN, click Save.


edit: my mistake, I did not pay attention (the map title says SELBEN, the column title says CYLAIR_DMA)... I don't know what the heck I was looking at... :doh:

[joecar]

Do I need to flatten more than what it shows in post #129?No, just the big spikes/sinkholes...

leave the small ripples alone.

[joecar]

I clicked on a few show unitsThe pid in post #135 shows CYLAIR_DMA (and you can see the units are g/cyl)... it should show SELBEN (which has units of factor (which means it is a multipler)).

[Nver2loud]

Is this right? My Data was at Calc.SELBEN as it was the only option with SELBEN in it. I also for my column changed it to CALC.SELBEN. Is this not right?

[joecar]

Is this right? My Data was at Calc.SELBEN as it was the only option with SELBEN in it. I also for my column changed it to CALC.SELBEN. Is this not right?Yes, that now looks correct (the map title bar says SELBEN factor).

When you have an Nx1 map (like the MAF) map, the column pid can be any valid logged pid, so CALC.SELBEN is ok.

[joecar]

Ah, I'm sorry, I just now realized in your pics that CYLAIR_DMA was the column heading and not the map title, I do apologize, I was having resets... :doh:


so the thing to do is to pay more attention than I did to both the map title and the column heading.

[Nver2loud]

So it should be almost good here now? Will those ripples always stay on the b0101 table? Do I need to change anything back, to make it street driveable and have no problems then?

[Nver2loud]

I have been looking through some things and have been wondering why my spark dips during a log at WOT and then goes back up. There is a row at 4800 that drops from 25 to 23, then pops back up. Is this normal? Does this spark table seem acceptable? I have yet to do anything with this, but I know the car was tuned well before I bought it many many years ago, and was supercharged at the time.

[joecar]

So it should be almost good here now? Will those ripples always stay on the b0101 table? Do I need to change anything back, to make it street driveable and have no problems then?The ripples are ok, they correspond to resonances in your exhaust/intake, leave them in, if you flatten them out they will return.

[joecar]

I have been looking through some things and have been wondering why my spark dips during a log at WOT and then goes back up. There is a row at 4800 that drops from 25 to 23, then pops back up. Is this normal? Does this spark table seem acceptable? I have yet to do anything with this, but I know the car was tuned well before I bought it many many years ago, and was supercharged at the time.Yes, the dip corresponds to where peak torque would be... altho your table has a very narrow dip;

that spark table seems acceptable for NA, but not for boost;

do you have a 3D view of it...?

[Nver2loud]

Car is NA, not sure if I need to do any other deductions on spark.

[Nver2loud]

Also, thank you very much for the discussion :)

[joecar]

Car is NA, not sure if I need to do any other deductions on spark.That spark table looks like a modified 2002 Z06/LS6 spark table.

[Nver2loud]

I know I have not posted in a long time, the reason is I havent had time to drive the car! I never did change any tables back to stock settings, like the RPM threshold which is still at 400 instead of 4000. Does this mean that my o2 sensors are turned off? On the highway the car is getting great mileage, however in the city its like 9-10. If that. I had some driving around town and I burnt up a majority of a tank of gas in probably 100 miles.
The following tables were changed to start tuning. B3618, B3313, B3618, B3613, B3701, B4105. I think thats it. Do these all get put back to where they were on my base tune?

[joecar]

B0120 set to 400 disables the VE table above 400 rpm (so you will be running from the MAF table all the time).

CL/trimming (using front O2 sensors) is controlled by B3801 and B4205.

You want B3618 to be sufficiently rich (not overly) to protect your engine at high load (and B3616 must be set to enable easily)... but you can't set it until you've corrected MAF and VE.

[Nver2loud]

I beleive that I have corrected my MAF and my VE. I am not totally sure on that however, I have done the log 3 times and updated my b0101. I have also updated my b5001 maf table. My 3618 is currently set at 1.16 across the board. Can/Should I change my B0120 back to 4000 rpm? My B3801 is at Enable currently and I dont have a 4205 table? Maybe this was meant to be 4105 in which it is set at 450 across the board.

[joecar]

You can determine how close your VE/MAF tables are by (while in tuning mode for each) looking at the BEN pid, it will be 1.00 for corrected VE/MAF

i.e.
- in MAF tuning mode (VE disabled, CL/Trim disabled), you want to see BEN 1.00;
- in VE tuning mode (MAF disabled, CL/Trim disabled), you want to see BEN 1.00;

are you sure you don't have table B4205 Closed Loop Temp Enable...?

[joecar]

When you're finished tuning, set B0120 back to 4000... this will allow the VE table to be used during transient airflow while under 4000 rpm (MAF has a challenge with transients).

[Nver2loud]

I must have been mistaken. Yes I do have a 4205 table, it goes from 60 to 34 at -10C.
Now, this may sound crazy, but I thought i tuned both MAF and VE already? I copy and pasted into both the VE table and the MAF table?

[joecar]

If you did either of Calc.VET or Calc.MAFT, then yes you did both VE and MAF in one go.

If you did AutoVE or AutoMAF then you did only one (VE or MAF, not both).

You have to know which one you did...?


(if you did Calc.VET then CL/Trims/O2 should have been left enabled...)

(from your older posts above it seems to me that you did Calc.VET and that your CL/Trims/O2 were always enabled)

[joecar]

Don't confuse AutoVE with Calc.VET...


did you do Calc.VET...? if so, then simply set B0120 back to 4000 when finished tuning.

[joecar]

Post some new log files.

[Nver2loud]

Yes, i did calc.VET. My last log files that I put up should be pretty current as they were only 1 tank of gas ago.

[Nver2loud]

Here is the last log that I took. 1 tank of gas and 2 months ago :)

[joecar]

Are you using the calc_pids.txt file from post#43 above...?

[joecar]

Is that log file (in post #159) before or after applying CALC.SELBEN to B5001 and CALC.VET to B0101...?

[Nver2loud]

Yes from #43. If I recall that log is before my last changes made to b5001 and b0101.

[Nver2loud]

Would you likes to see my current tunes which has that log applied to it?

[joecar]

Yes, that would help.

[Nver2loud]

Here is my current tune.

[joecar]

Ok, did you click both the low cell count button and the filter button...?

Looks like you did it right...

when you repeat the procedure does the VE table come out the same (and does the MAF map show 1.00 everywhere)...?


What driveability difference do you notice...?


Your VE table has a lot of range (slopes up steeply), what cam do you have...?


Don't forget to create a map for the Backup Ve table also.

When done tuning, you can set B0120 back to 4000 rpm.

[joecar]

Very carefully, reduce down the high cell plateaus in the VE table that don't get hit, reduce them down to roughly the same level as the ones that got hit...

do not smooth, just roughly bring those cells down by hand;


do the same with any singular spikes.

[Nver2loud]

I am assuming I can re-format my cell's to see the counts on each and then lower the low-count hit cells accordingly? I have a Texas Speed 228r on a 112lsa. How do I create a table for the backup VE? Same as doing the regular VE? I honestly dont remember if I clicked the low cell count and the filter button but I am assuming I only hit the filter as that was instructed. I turned it back to 4000rpm the other day and went on an extended drive to my friends house (45 minutes on the highway) and it was running well. I will open up my log and tune and try to move some of these spikes down. I will also move my b0120 back to 400 this week and see if I can take another log and verify if my MAF count is closer to 1.00.

thank you much Joe!

[Nver2loud]

After pulling up my log and my tune, I dont know how I have the basis to change some paramters in the VE table. I remember seeing in discussion about HOW to drive the car during a log, and I dont know how I can hit some of these cells such as 30 kpa at 4400 rpm in which I have 1 cell count on a long drive. Can I drive the car EXTREMELY light up to high rpm to get some actual numbers in here for hits? Or is that not actually adviseable?

Thanks so much

[joecar]

To create a map for Backup VE (same as creating other maps):

in tunetool highlight the table, in upper left corner do rightclick->copy-with-labels,

goto scantool, choose a new map tab, edit map properties, in each of Row and Col tabs click Paste Labels;

in the Data tab select the CALC.VET pid matching the display units of your Backup VE table (g*K/kPa or %);

in Data, Col, Row tabs checkmark Show Units;

save map (give it a meaningful filename).

[joecar]

How is throttle response, i.e when you snap it open halfway say...?

[joecar]

The cells that you can't hit: manually make these conform to the surface shape of the surrounding cells that were hit (being careful not to modify the cells that were hit)...

( but of course flatten out any singular spikes/holes, these can't physically exist )

( leave ripples alone )