VE and MAF Tuning

[Bill00Form]

O2 Sensors and wideband? I am doing the new twist on tuning and I seem to be having issues. It is using the ltft or wideband pid. I assume that the trims are based on the O2 readings. Under normal driving it seems that the mv from the O2 sensors are all over the place and the values are different between the sensors. At WOT it seems that they are more consistent. Shouldn't I be tuning based off the wideband only? Then I was thinking if I tune based off the wideband but the O2 sensors read differently it will be adjusting my tune anyway. I just installed new O2 sensors. The car has a 427 w/ a fairly large cam. I'm a little confused.

[joecar]

Bill,

Post some log files (and the calc_pids.txt file you're using).

[Bill00Form]

ok, thanks. the first tune was used to create the log and the second I ran partial runs at the track. The first log is extended driving on the street and the second was the partial run at the track. the motor was actually breaking up on this run. I updated my ecm to the 2002 pcm software.1327613277132781327913280

Also, 42 lb SVO injectors.

Thanks

[BLK02WS6]

Looking at the track run - you should log timing... It is pretty rich - any particular reason you are running it that rich? Looking at the timing table to see what it would have been using - the high octane table is pretty hacked up and 29 degrees is kinda high - was that verified on a dyno as being the timing that made the most power? The MAF table is a bit lumpy too - need to smooth that out...

[slows10]

Why is 29 degrees hacked up? Not like you are privy to the engine build details. OP the least of your problems is your high octane table.

[slows10]

As to your question get the fueling in line first. Maf and ve. Post your calc pids and get setup with either method you are going to tune with.(calcvet,autove) etc.Some of your fueling tables look like they were kinda guessed at. Which with a 427 you might have to do since not many stock tables would work with your setup.

[joecar]

I see the MAF ripple from 339 g/s to 406 g/s in 0.124 seconds... the PCM may be able to handle/smooth that but it makes me a little uncomfortable.

[Bill00Form]

When I originally installed my motor it was tuned by a professional tuner. Since then I added a 4" mufflex y-pipe back in place of a 3" two on the left. He did the timing tables. I never had the tune adjusted. My car's performance varies a lot. In the heat it's gone as slow as 125.5 mph but as quick as 133.3 in 52ish degree weather in the quarter mile. My basic setup is an LS7 427 block, tfs 235 heads, fast 92mm intake, 85mm maf, 1 7/8 AR headers, 12:1 compression. It's a 6 spd. Also, being in Florida it gets pretty hot.

I didn't have a wideband installed until maybe 6 months ago. I noticed that at idle my car would be really lean but at wot it would go really rich. It kind of scared me so I am trying to learn how to tune it myself with EFI Live. Joecar has helped me a lot. I'm still a beginner with this stuff but not quite as lost. I bought EFI Live when I installed my motor but just used it for gear/tire changes.

I also made changes to the injector parameters based on new information I received (initially this made the car run very lean). I have been adjusting the VE and MAF tables based on the "new twist on tuning" thread where you can adjust the MAF and VE tables. I use the log files to make adjustments but as you said it's very rich in PE mode.

Can you give me some guidance as to how I should adjust the timing table? Also, am I better off using a different method to tune? Thanks for all the help.

[slows10]

Is this a track car, weekend track street car? Daily driver? Seems like the tuner set it up for a track only car. Also do you know the specs on the cam? Also noticed you doing a full throttle run with coolant temp near 230f degrees.

[minytrker]

The VE table looks odd, the maf table also needs to be smoothed like someone said earlier. The VE table is off probably because the injector's are not setup right. The timing table also looks like something in a race car with a trans brake or 2 step, defiantly not street car.
I personally would fix the injector data and start over with a stock ve, maf, and timing table and go from there.

[Bill00Form]

It's not a hardcore race car. I guess street/strip would be a better description. It's not a daily driver but if I could improve the drivability I would drive it on the street more often.

The information for the injectors is similar to what is shown on this website.

http://www.trafficjams.ca/Performance/InjectorDetails.htm

I obtained mine from a tuning video (calibated success). Does it seem wrong for the svo green top injectors?

[minytrker]

Sorry about the injectors, they may not be as far off as I thought. I for some reason thought you had 36lb injectors. The injector data you have still is different from what I use, the shape of the VE is making me think your data is off.
There are many things that can be changed in your tune for better driveabilty. No reason you cant drive that setup around if you wanted to.

[Bill00Form]

No problem. I have no way of verifying the accracy of the data but I thought Greg Banish would be a reliable source. I would assume most people don't change that many tables for their injectors but I could be wrong. All my data on the VE and MAF was from maps and yes I filled in/adjusted to what I thought they should be. One of the issues I was trying to point out was that even though the wideband and O2s are reading rich on the partial race log it seems like the maps are trying to adjust my maf table so that it would be even richer. (lots of 1.05s)

It seems that the old fashion way of tuning (disabling MAF, open loop) might be a better option for me.

When you talk about the shape are you talking about the graph/picture? I was mostly concentrating on the numbers since I had no expectations as to what the graph/picture would look like.

So do you think the breaking up was caused by the tables not being smooth enough.

thanks

[minytrker]

I personally always disable maf, tune ve, turn on maf and tune maf. Thats just what I have been doing for years and I know it works. Yes looking at the shape of the graph it doesnt look right to me. Compare it to a stock VE and look at the shape of it. Are you running any kind of filters on your maps? You may just be not getting enough or good enough data. Your wideband and your fuel trims should be very close, dont be alarmed if they arent the exact same. What I normally do is use the wideband and get the ve within +-.2 then turn on my fuel trims and check what they are. If the fuel trims are not +-.2 then I adjust the ve off the trims. It should be very little if any difference between the two. I then move on to the maf and do the same thing. I use wideband only for WOT fueling since the o2's can read fuel at WOT.
By the shape of your ve table and the roughness of the maf table, I would go back to stock ve and maf and tune VE then MAF and I bet youll get different results than you have now. Make sure you using filters and getting enough data so your not just going in circles. On a street car I would shoot for atleast 50 cell counts when doing auto ve. The more and better data you get the better you can get the tables. Are you using a serial wideband?

[BLK02WS6]

Why is 29 degrees hacked up? Not like you are privy to the engine build details. OP the least of your problems is your high octane table.

Didn't say 29 degrees was hacked up - said the table was hacked up - huge shelves and not smooth is asking for knock retard... Didn't say it was his major problem, but it is one of many problems in that tune...

[slows10]

Well I look at it a different way. When he is at full throttle at 228f with 12.1 and no knock retard and thinking it may be a strip car, then calling the table hacked up may not be correct. Thats all I was saying.

[BLK02WS6]

I would agree with Minytrker's advice - start over with a stock tune - or at least a good base tune, which one of us could help you with... wasn't trying to give you a hard time in my earlier post. I kinda figured that someone else did the tune for you and you weren't happy with the way the car was running and you were trying to learn to do it yourself - seems to be a common theme these days... There are a lot of hack tuners out there.

As far as the process, I go OL and tune the VE and then the MAF with the wideband. Then follow-up fine tuning with LTFTs in CL. A serial wideband is highly encouraged - way better than analog...

Edit - missed the post with the details of the setup...

[BLK02WS6]

Well I look at it a different way. When he is at full throttle at 228f with 12.1 and no knock retard and thinking it may be a strip car, then calling the table hacked up may not be correct. Thats all I was saying.

Guess I look at it differently too - I have tuned many track cars and there is no reason to hack tables up just cause it isn't driven on the street (which his is). To me, there is nothing more embarassing than an 8 or 9 second car that stalls in the waterbox, or can't be driven smoothly around the pits to tech in or back the return road... Maybe I'm just a perfectionist, but I just don't see a reason to ever create tables like that... just my opinion...

[joecar]

The spark table still looks strange tho, not necessarily wrong, just strange...

[Bill00Form]

Should I go back to the stock spark table or does someone have a better one that I could use? Thanks

[Bill00Form]

I saw weatherman had a base tune for a 6 speed w/ cam. Would that be a good one to use? thanks

[slows10]

I gotta say , I thought about the weatherman just a few hours back. And I miss that guy here alot. A no nonsense type of guy that could back up what he said every time. He never bragged how good he was at actually knowing how to tune.Was he capable of tuning an 8 second car that would not stall at the burnout box? LOL course he was. HE would make sure you understood how an efi engine worked 3 times before he would get on someones case. If you still did not get it, he would say it is time for that person to go back to basic training. I just wanted to say that I miss that guy. And you would be much better off reading his material than going by somebody who says they have done it all, and really never understood how the actual dynamics of an engine work esp when the log is staring them right in their face. Its the same old thing over and over on these forums. Most of the guys that say they tune, could not rebuild a lawn mower engine, therefore can never tune an efi engine. Good luck bill you will figure it out. It is the typical tuner that thinks an engine with a carb is really that different than an efi engine.Good grief, it is just an internal combustion engine.

[slows10]

Guess I look at it differently too - I have tuned many track cars and there is no reason to hack tables up just cause it isn't driven on the street (which his is). To me, there is nothing more embarassing than an 8 or 9 second car that stalls in the waterbox, or can't be driven smoothly around the pits to tech in or back the return road... Maybe I'm just a perfectionist, but I just don't see a reason to ever create tables like that... just my opinion...

Great to have your opinion. Your a perfectionist in your opinion. If you dont like my opinion, feel free to pm me.

[minytrker]

Should I go back to the stock spark table or does someone have a better one that I could use? Thanks

I would start with a stock 2002 timing table from OS#12212156. Its a good table to start from.

[slows10]

I would start with a stock 2002 timing table from OS#12212156. Its a good table to start from.

That s probably good advice.

[Bill00Form]

Thanks for all the help. I have read a fair amount of the stuff on tuning but if you have no reference (knowledge) or no one to talk to it's a little tough. Also, much of it's very old and there just trying to figure things out and then there are all these different ways of doing the same thing. I think I'm slowly learning at least some of this stuff. Hopefully, I'm not ennoying some of you too much. I am surprised EFI Live doesn't build a little bit more into there software so it's a little more automated or have it so you can purchase modules. I'm sure many of you have heard that Holley's system is self tuning but it has it's own electronics and you have to rewire so much including guages.

I did figure out a few things. When I updated to the 2002 ECM software I changed the rev limiter but there was another table that limits rpm by gear that I missed. This was set at 6,200. That is probably why I thought my car was breaking up. Also, I forgot to change the fan settings which was why it was so hot.

I looked at my original tuned file and verified that the only VE values that were changed from the 2000 factory values were fom 400 to 2,000. Those amounts were multiplied by 4 or 5 factors of factors. I wondered why the MAF RPM threshold was set at 2,000. So I guess the tune was primarily done by changing the MAF table and timing.

[Bill00Form]

Can someone confirm to force open loop I just adjust temperature enable to a high temperature and copy high octane timing info to the low octane table? Thanks

[minytrker]

B4205....max that out and you'll be in OL. If your wanting to go Speed Density (SD) then you'll need to copy high oct to low oct and fail the MAF.

[Bill00Form]

Thanks

[joecar]

Yes, we miss WeahemanShawn; his wife recently got the Camaro to pass smog and she's driving it.

[joecar]

I'm thinking of putting together a zip package containing the maps/gauges/charts/calcpids required for doing Calc.VET, Calc.MAF, AutoVE, AutoMAF and maybe a text file showing step-by-step... (so that when you unzip it all the files end up in the right places).

[DrkPhx]

I'm thinking of putting together a zip package containing the maps/gauges/charts/calcpids required for doing Calc.VET, Calc.MAF, AutoVE, AutoMAF and maybe a text file showing step-by-step... (so that when you unzip it all the files end up in the right places).

So get to it! :) That would be great for the first time users.

[minytrker]

I'm thinking of putting together a zip package containing the maps/gauges/charts/calcpids required for doing Calc.VET, Calc.MAF, AutoVE, AutoMAF and maybe a text file showing step-by-step... (so that when you unzip it all the files end up in the right places).

That would be pretty cool and help out everyone not just new guys. I still remember making all my maps from scratch, lol.