D1007, D1008, D1009 - TPS TCC release

[turboberserker]

I don't want to release my TCC at WOT but the max value in these tables is 100. Is there anything I can do to disable this release? Does it actually release if the release speed is not met?? -- I don't think it does, which leads me to question why this table exists. :help2:

[joecar]

You're right, the max value seems to be 100% TPS.

I think tables D1007-8 will force TCC release regardless of tables D1001-6.

The reason for wanting to release the TCC at WOT is because it is basically "half a clutch" (only 1 friction surface instead of 2) and it can't handle a large amount of torque (it'll slip and burn).

(There are torque converters that have multi-disc clutches)

While the TC is slipping it will multipy the torque into the trans.

This table exists so that the TCC can be released at lower TPS values for applications that involve ALOT of torque.

[turboberserker]

I have a triple disc and a turbo so I want her locked up tight don't I?

Confused hehe

This is my first automatic and all this fluid where gears should be has me confuddled ;)

[joecar]

Is it the tune tool that is enforcing the max of 100%TPS...?
If the tune tool allowed it, would a higher value be meaningful to the PCM...?
Probably yes... that would be how to disable the WOT TCC release.

You may want to talk to Paul (Blacky) about this.

[turboberserker]

Yep the tuning tool lists the max value for those tables as 100% tps. That may be because of some limitation in the PCM.

[joecar]

We should still ask Paul about it though, because if it is the Tune Tool that imposes the maximum and not the PCM, then it may make sense to allow a slightly higher value (say 110%) to disable the TCC release.
Of course, I am just thinking out loud...
:)

[turboberserker]

Oh I agree :)

[joecar]

Erik, I PM'd Paul just in case he didn't see this thread.

Cheers
Joe
:cheers:

[GMPX]

We have looked into this and the TCC lock controls go deeper than what can be controlled in that table for what you want to do. We will endevour to figure it all out at some stage and include the additional TCC controls into the cals.

Cheers,
Ross

[joecar]

Ross,

As usual, great customer service, thanks mate.

That reminds me, are there any tables for trans. base pressure in each gear (i.e. not during a shift)...?

Regards
Joe
:cheers:

[turboberserker]

Awesome, thanks Ross!!

[Jphdg]

Is there a way to hold TCC enabled while you are in full decel while still above the TCC release speed?

Can this be done and is that safe to do for highway cruise?

I wish once my TCC has locked (4th) at the set speed, it would stay locked in even on decel until it reaches the release speed I have set in table {D1006), not drop off lock as soon as TPS = 0%.

It locks where i want however comes out of lock as soon as torque is reduced such as backing off then applying accel again as you would in traffic on a busy freeway.

I don't particularly like the idea of it engaging and disengaging often when doing light cruising but rather the speed determine when to unlock it as I have set it so it will unlock if any more than 75% TPS is applied and torque values are high. I would imagine if it would stay in lock it would wear less due to constant engage - disengage.

I have been looking into table {D1006} and am assuming that these values are what govern when the TCC should come out of lock if perameters are hovering within set limits within the trottle release table for that gear.

I am still trying to understand the relationship how the unlock side of things work and seem a bit slow with it today... :doh: Then again, it would be no fun if you learned everying in one day!

From what I gather, should the converter stay locked, even on decel until the TPS falls below the set values or the speed falls below the set value. Is this correct?

As I can see, the min setting for the throttle release setting is 0.0.
That would mean that you cannot hold the lock on during a temporary decel without it disengaging then slipping back into lock again once TPS is >0%?

I am sure this is a sinch when fully understood and should be np setting it up to my liking if it is possible. If anyone has been there done that before, please let me know the ropes.

:confused:

[joecar]

Does your D1009 "TCC Throttle Release 4th gear" table contain 100%TPS across...?
TCC releases when throttle >= D1009 regardless of D1006.

Post pics of D1003, D1006, D1009.

[Jphdg]

Does your D1009 "TCC Throttle Release 4th gear" table contain 100%TPS across...?
TCC releases when throttle >= D1009 regardless of D1006.

Post pics of D1003, D1006, D1009.

Joecar - here are the three tables I have and obviously they are not set correctly. :bawl:

However I must point out values in table D1009 were originally all set to 100% tps. I had changed it and took the car out to Geelong today and noted that it 'felt' like it stayed in lock and felt solid unless I actually did release the throttle fully or fell below the set speed to release.

Prior to today it was re-engaging everytime you would back off a little and then re-apply throttle.

I must also note that the values in table D1003 are not the true speed where the converter locks in real life. It is locking in at about 90kph (which is exactly where I want it to lock) however the values are a tad over 100kph in this table, so something is not right there with about 10kph error.

I checked the speedo settings and these have been programmed to indicate a 3.73 diff ratio which is correct. I however have noted that in the 'Differential ratio (Factor)' is 3.7. Reading the description I found it does not relate to the speedo or shift speeds but may have some inpact on other things I currently am not familiar with. From what I read though this should also be set to my diff ratio of 3.73? This is: (H0103)

I will also attach this screen shot for you labled as H0103 to have a quick look.

I am sure I will feel like an idiot once you tell me how simple this stuff really is and how they work and that it can be fixed in 2 secs flat, however least I am learning something along the way and will make sense very soon. :beer:

Cheers.

[joecar]

Jphdg,

Well, it is and isn't simple, it's a matter of interaction between tables which isn't necessarily obvious...

D1003: when (TPS,VSS) point hits/crosses from below curve to above curve, TCC applies.
D1006: when (TPS,VSS) point crosses from at/above curve to below curve, TCC releases.

D1009:
when (VSS,TPS) point hits/crosses from below curve to above curve, TCC releases regardless of D1003 and D1006, and
when (VSS,TPS) point crosses from at/above curve to below curve, TCC applies depending on D1003 and D1006.

So your D1009 shows that below 90km/h your TCC will be released (because TPS will always be >= 0%) regardless of the apply speed 106.9km/h in D1003; this is why you're seeing your TCC lock at 90km/h instead of 107km/h.

It's best to have D1009 set to high values above 80%;
the idea is that when you mash the throttle the TCC unlocks,
this allows engine RPM to climb quicker,
this allows engine to get into torque quicker
(in addition to RPM climb from possible downshift).
At non-WOT, you want TCC to lock early to save petrol and to keep the trans. cooler.

Here's my tables (I'm using MPH, I'm old enough to have learnt both systems in primary school)...

Cheers
Joe
:cheers:

[joecar]

Note that you can have D1003 set below D0903 "Part throttle shift 3-4".

What will happen is that the TCC will apply immediately when going into 4th at part throttle.

[joecar]

You can also log the TCC pids to see what the TCC is doing...

TCCDC
TCCMODE
TSTATE00
TSTATE09
TSTATE10
TCCSLIP (this is harder to interpret)

[Jphdg]

Joecar, cheers and thanks a lot for taking the time to explain the relationship between all of these tables.

From what you say makes some sense now so I will have a close look at your tables to re-enforce what you just said and then try to re-do these tables and see how it goes.

[joecar]

Let us know how it goes.
:cheers:

[Jphdg]

I am running a 3500rpm high stall so I don't know if TCC works the same way as a stock converter, but I am starting to assume that a Hi-Stall will not stay locked on a complete decel? ...well mine anyway.

Basically I guess what is going on is if I am above the unlock speed, it will still unlock once I back off regardless any release table settings.

When I accelerate again, the rpm will rise and you will feel the converter slip back into lock as the TCC clutch engages. If i keep TPS open just a little, it will not come out of lock at all and will feel like driving a manual in overdrive.

I tried a similar setting to what was pictured here but it seemed to still unlock on a complete decel above the desired unlock speed. I also found that the speed in which the converter locked was still about 10kph below from the actual values I commanded so I am not sure what is affecting the desired lock tables, so I have set them 10km higher once again for now until I find why this is happening.

The unlock speed however seems to go in par with what I had commanded in the unlock tables. :nixweiss:

Regarding the trottle release: Above the set range which I now made 80%, that works perfectly when you mash it.

Perhaps this stall converter is designed like this and must have at least some torque to hold it in lock? I don't know.
I will go and search on the net for some info on it now and see what I can find related to the TCC specifications.

From what I know, it is a 'Dominator 3500' Hi-Stall and is fairly popular in Aus, so I might also try to find out from others if they have the same issue.

Anyhow will see what I can find about the hardware details and go from there.

Thanks Joecar..

[FFP]

Did anything ever Come of this ???? We Have a 02 Vette with a 3800 Vig 5 disc And A Built Trans From Rpm and we are have problems keeping the converter locked going down the 1/4 Mile. Should we just Put in switch to Keep the converter lock in third when we are at the track?


Thanks,Bill
www.forcefedperformance.com (http://www.forcefedperformance.com)

[LS1FREEK]

We have looked into this and the TCC lock controls go deeper than what can be controlled in that table for what you want to do. We will endevour to figure it all out at some stage and include the additional TCC controls into the cals.

Cheers,
Ross

Did you guys ever find anything out? Curious cause I want my converter to lock in third ant wot also..