tunning for bigger injectors

[gigabrock]

ok so i have a 2003 lb7 i just replaced the injectors on it and i took my tune i had on it off because i didnt know if it would hurt anything so my question is what tables do i need to change and what do i need to change them to they are 30% over and flow 28lpm i have absolutely no clue where to begin this is a tune i found on the internet and i seem to like it i have another tune also that i would like to chane for the injectors because its way more fun but clutch doesnt like it here is my everyday tune if anyone could help i would greatly appriciate it

[gigabrock]

sorry for two posts i was on the mac side of my hard drive and not windows but here ya go 13681

[WisconsinHick1]

I'll take a look tonight when I get home. But for 30% nozzles it wont be much changes. A little less main injection pulse width and a little less injection timing.

Do you have a stock turbo? I take it you have a manual with a stock clutch still? What are you looking to do with the truck?

[gigabrock]

ok thankyou i appriciate it very much but yes it is stock turbo for now and the clutch is stock but i have a dual disk in my shop that i am getting ready to put in and basically what i want to do is have a tune that isnt to terrible on fuel mileage but i can also race with and drive in town and on the high way. smoke isnt really an issue yes i know it gives diesel a bad "name" but where im from and drive at people dont care so im not really worried if its smokey. the truck has a ppe boost valve, cold air intake, four inch exhaust to seven inch stacks, fass 150hd, 30% injectors, guages, soon to be double disk south bend feramic cluch, and to top it all of i nice hillsboro flatbed.

[WisconsinHick1]

Do you have your original stock tune? It would be easier to work off of that for me.

[gigabrock]

yes i do actually
13695
and the new clutch is going in tommorow i think so thats not an issue but thankyou so much for your help i wish there was someone close to me that knew this stuff that could teach me how to use it and how to adjust things and what to look for but no one here does

[WisconsinHick1]

Where are you located?

[WisconsinHick1]

What's your email address Brock?

[gigabrock]

hey sorry it took so long to get back i have been swamped with work and cutting hay this weekend but i am from vincennes indiana its three hours south of indianapolis and right in the middle of evansville and terrehaute but my email is bjohn118@rocketmail.com

[DirtyMax03]

Brock,

I am also originally from Vincennes but live in Columbus, IN now and work for Cummins. Anyhow, I do Duramax tuning and mechanic work on the side. Hit me up if you want me to help you with tuning for larger injectors sometime. I graduated from South Knox in 2004.

Here is my facebook page:
http://www.facebook.com/McGiffenPerformance?ref=hl

[gigabrock]

hey alright i would gladly pay you if you could teach me how to do this cause I'm just about to give up hope because i can't figure this out at all and I'm afraid I'm gonna screw my truck up cause the tune i have now doesn't seem like its up to snuff its just about good for smoke and thats it and i graduated with your brother in 09

[THEFERMANATOR]

Check your email, I just sent you a tune to try out. If it works I can up it a bit for you if needs be, but this will give a baseline as to wether or not the 40 over tunes I have will work with your 30 over sticks.

[gigabrock]

thank you sir i really appreciate it and what do i need to look for to see if it will work like i said I'm extremely new to this and really don't even get the concept of logging and how to read them and how to adjust and the logs i have been doing I'm not even sure what to monitor and what they should be

[DirtyMax03]

Small world. Yeah, EFI Live has a steep learning curve. I have been using it for 3 years and still learn new things every day. If you are free during a weekend later in October or November you could come by my shop and I could give you a quick tutorial on EFI Live and help you with your tuning.

Give THEFERMANATORs tune a try as it sounds like it should be better than the tune that you are currently running if the tune you are currently running is excessively smokey. I too am learning the tricks of tuning for bigger injectors on a local customer's truck with 30% over nozzles.

THEFERMANATOR,

I would be interested in taking a look at your 40 over tune just to see how it compares to my 30 over 'tranny safe' tune. I basically dialed back the fueling 25% at max fueling and gradually stepped down the amount of decreased fueling as rail pressure decreases. I then use a modified timing calculator that I have found works best for economy at light loads and power at full load to set the timing. Decreasing the PW and using the spreadsheet calculator effectively dials back the timing for the bigger sticks.
It may also be helpful for you to know that 30% over nozzles actually only deliver 22-25% more fueling at rated pressure when the nozzles are installed on the injector. I work with a guy from Bosch and he was explaining this to me.

[DirtyMax03]

Mind you the 'adjustments' I refer to above are changes made to my 125HP single tune and not to a stock calibration. I also learned from the Bosch guy that bigger sticks also open slower especially at lower pressures so you don't need to take out as much timing in the cruising range as you might think for the bigger sticks. I think he was referring more to 100% over sticks, so this phenomena may not be as pronounced on 30% sticks, just fyi for anyone that is interested.

[THEFERMANATOR]

Try the tune out and see how it responds in your truck. If it seems to run good then we can log it and set it up where you need it to be at. As far as changes go, they have to made to account for injector latency. Changes across teh board will net you poor results, you need to find your lag time and subtract that fro myour pulse time, then make your changes, and then add the lag time back in to get a better pulse table adjusted for the different injector size. And also keep in mind that even though you went up 30% in injector size, that doesn't always equal out to a 30% reduction in pulse time to make it back to stock. The percentage will vary across the board, so it is best to start small and work your way down to what you need. The 40 over tune I have is only dialed back down 15% in the idle areas, and it reads right at 8-9MM3 of fuel at idle where a stock tune would. But higher up you have to increase your percentage to get the flow equal. And I normally don't share the tune file I have as I have ALOT of time tied up in it, and it was somebody elses tune file to start with.

[DirtyMax03]

FERM,

Yep, injector latency is what I was referring to with the delay with larger injectors, also called injector energizing time. I am familiar with the phenomena but not familiar with how to mathematically quantify the additional lag time without injector test data. Do you have a way to determine this using the PIDs provided with EFI Live?

Same with injector flow, without injector flow data all you can do is do like you said and back down the PW slightly down low and back out PW progressively more as rail pressure increases. But if you have a more mathematical method I would love to discuss it with you as I hate 'stabbing in the dark'.

I totally understand not wanting to share the cal as I know you have TONS of time invested in it. If I didn't enjoy dabbling with this, there is no way that I could make a financial business case to justify the hours I have spent playing with EFI Live.

[gigabrock]

ok thanks i am waiting for my computer to charge and then i will go out and try it i was gonna try it during classes but my computer died during my horticulture class so i didnt get to it but i dont mean to sound dumb but its going to sound dumb when i ask this question when you say see how it runs what am i looking for and what do i need to watch out for listen for and what pids should in your opinion should i have pulled up in the scan tool when i try it by the way thankyou very much for helping me out it means alot and dirtymax03 just let me know when you are availible and would like me to come there when its good for you because i have two jobs and i have to plan in advance when doing something so whenever is good for you i can come just gotta get it okayed and i will prolly just come there for the weekend and take the little lady shopping or something while im there i dont really get to get out of vincennes much so any excuse is a good one especially if its to learn something

[THEFERMANATOR]

The PIDS to watch would be fuel rate as you want to see what the idle fuel rate is(should be 8-10 MM3 of fuel at a hot idle). make sure it runs smoothly, and that it isn't smoking white. If the injector flow rate is off to much, it will blow out white smoke fro mthe low fuel rate and off pilot injection. If it runs and performs well, monitor fuel rail pressure under a WOT run and see how much it is holding. If the tune runs smoothly and performs well, then you can use rail pressure to help dial in how much pulsewidth you can give it on the big end.

For injector latency, i have found 100 USEC to be a good number to use across the board. I came up with this number by trying out minimum injector amounts in a tune file, and find at what point pilot would be basically useless. I found that at roughly 105 usec the pilot pulse became pointless, so I use 100 usec as my latency amount. Subtract it from the whole table, and then make my % reduction. For the 40 over sticks I did, I found that 15% in the 0-10MM3 of fuel areas actually brought it back REALLY close to stock idle fuel rates. And used 20%$ from 20MM3 of fuel on up and it brought it back to stock performance. Every injector set is different though as the base file I used was set up with the same size sticks fro manother shop, and it used almost 25% across the board. Yet both trucks held almost identical rail pressures at a 2500 pulsewidth on the big end. There is no ryme or reason to how much to reduce it and where, just have to play with it accordingly to each set.

[gigabrock]

ok so i got it on the truck and it seems to like it it idles smooth and isnt noisy at all i didnt hear a knock or anything of the sort but i did have one little issue if i rev out to above 2500 or so rpms and i push the clutch in to shift it seems to hang that rpm for a second or two and the next thing was it seems like it has trouble getting the truck going when starting from a dead stop it almost seems like it has very little power at lower rpms but when i get higher in the rpms and pop on the highway it seems to do very well but like the power addict i am it just seems a little sluggish but i drove 30 miles in town and on highway and those were the only things i saw and my last tune i had seem to have a natural lope when i first started it when it was cold and this tune did no such thing

[DirtyMax03]

FERM,

I am little lost on your method of determining that the injector latency for your bigger injectors was 100 usec over stock (ie. they take 100 usec longer to begin injecting fuel than stock) but other than that you and I are on the same page for tuning for larger injectors. If all of the injector test data was available for stock and the modified injectors, the mods to the PW and timing tables could be done mathematically, but without that information it just requires a little trial and error and being very familiar with the mm3 and fuel pressure parameters compared to a file with stock injectors.

Gigabrock,

I can give you an EFI Live crash course and help you dial it in some Saturday. Just let me know when works best for you. It will take you ~2.5 hours to get to my place from Vincennes on HWY50.

[DirtyMax03]

Sorry Gigabrock, just saw your post further up. Oct. 27th or Nov. 3rd (both Saturdays) are currently open. We will play it by ear. My phone number is on my facebook page 'McGiffen Performance'. That is my side gig business working on Dmax trucks.

[THEFERMANATOR]

FERM,

I am little lost on your method of determining that the injector latency for your bigger injectors was 100 usec over stock (ie. they take 100 usec longer to begin injecting fuel than stock) but other than that you and I are on the same page for tuning for larger injectors. If all of the injector test data was available for stock and the modified injectors, the mods to the PW and timing tables could be done mathematically, but without that information it just requires a little trial and error and being very familiar with the mm3 and fuel pressure parameters compared to a file with stock injectors.

Gigabrock,

I can give you an EFI Live crash course and help you dial it in some Saturday. Just let me know when works best for you. It will take you ~2.5 hours to get to my place from Vincennes on HWY50.

For latency I have found it to be 100usec for the most part. So to find actual injection time, subtract 100 fro mthe pulsewidth table and this gives you pretty close to actual injection time. Then make your percentage changes to the table, and add 100 back onto it and you will be pretty close.

Sounds like the tune I sent you is pulled back a bit to much for pulsewidth and your 30 over sticks. Connect the scan tool and see what your idle fuel rate is with it warmed up and let me know what it is and I can make some adjustments to it for you and your 30 over sticks. And do a WOT pull and see what kind of rail pressure it holds at full throttle and I can set the pulsewidth better for you. As for the throttle hang, it sounds like the rail valve current table may need a tweak as I had to lower the one down in the tune I sent you for him to hold rail pressure. Once I know your idle fuel rate and WOT rail pressure I can make you a tune for it. It wil ltake me probably a week or so right now with my workload, but I can set you up with one.

[gigabrock]

ok so tonight i finally had some time with no one to bother me and i sat down and wrote a tune i used 75usec as the latencey instead of 100 and it gave me a little better response and seemed like i got some power back then i added a little pulse width after subtracting it out and then did my best at smoothing the table i altered the timing tables with josh hs timing calculator and changed changed the boost limiters and the other limiters to go along i wanna know what you guys think and what you guys think i can do to improve it dont worry you arent gonna hurt my feelings by saying its shit but please just steer me in the correct direction to make it right
here is the tune
14006
and here are the logs i took
140071400814009
like i said i would greatly appriciate it if you guys could take a look at it and possibly send me in the correct direction it seems to run good absolutely no smoke no strange noises and idles smooth thanks in davance guys you both have been a huge amount of help

[gigabrock]

For latency I have found it to be 100usec for the most part. So to find actual injection time, subtract 100 fro mthe pulsewidth table and this gives you pretty close to actual injection time. Then make your percentage changes to the table, and add 100 back onto it and you will be pretty close.

Sounds like the tune I sent you is pulled back a bit to much for pulsewidth and your 30 over sticks. Connect the scan tool and see what your idle fuel rate is with it warmed up and let me know what it is and I can make some adjustments to it for you and your 30 over sticks. And do a WOT pull and see what kind of rail pressure it holds at full throttle and I can set the pulsewidth better for you. As for the throttle hang, it sounds like the rail valve current table may need a tweak as I had to lower the one down in the tune I sent you for him to hold rail pressure. Once I know your idle fuel rate and WOT rail pressure I can make you a tune for it. It wil ltake me probably a week or so right now with my workload, but I can set you up with one.

i do have those logs to if you would like them to take a gander at i just have been busy lately with 2 jobs and school

[dirtymax0526]

THEFERMANATOR could you email me please
nolimitdieselperformance@gmail.com

Check your email, I just sent you a tune to try out. If it works I can up it a bit for you if needs be, but this will give a baseline as to wether or not the 40 over tunes I have will work with your 30 over sticks.