LC-1 to V2 A/D

[EagleMark]

Maybe I just haven't found the right thread, post, tutorial etc... but can't get WB data? LC-1 is installed, gauge works fine, extra anolog output confirured, wired to A/D port A, went through V2 and selected AD, Serial was no, used the LC1 WB PID available?

Since I have voltage to A/D and a ground I'm sure it's just not set up for data properly but I'm lost at this point.

[joecar]

Did you select the pid EXT.AD1...?

[EagleMark]

D'oh!

No but figured it was something simple and after I did it works! Sort of, I had AFR_LC11, now I have both and they both are showing .6x volts, AFR is 9.xx and gauge is 14.xx.

Been reading quite a bit to get up to speed with EFI Live. I'm proficient with TunerPro RT and OBDI stuff. Found lots of old info,old Tutorials and dead links, kind of a history lesson. Software is accelerating faster and I just got newest version so lots of the info I read does not apply anymore... so I'm a little lost but have tried to soak up the knowledge here! Your quite knowledgeable and helpful around here so thanks!

The info I did find was LC1 AFR 0-5 volts = 10 to 20 AFR but I don't know if that is accurate? Mine is set 0-5 volts 7.35 to 22.39 AFR on Analog output 1 to V2 Analog A. So can you point me in right direction to change PID or find what is in PID to set up LC-1 Analog 1 output?

[joecar]

If your LC-1 is set to the default settings, then the pid CALC.AFR_LC11 (0-5V = 7.35-22.35AFR) is correct.

But, you may want to (should) use serial comms, see post #3 here: serial-port-cable-that-goes-to-v2 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?9340-serial-port-cable-that-goes-to-v2)

[EagleMark]

I do have a cable from TAQuickness ordered and shipped.

Although the Null Modem adapter may be a better option as I have the LC-1 wired for temp use and use it without EFI live as well... Thanks!

For now I'll have to check what's wrong giving me wrong data...

[joecar]

What fuel are you running...?


Check what the stoich AFR is set to in your LC-1 (use LM Programmer software to view it).

[EagleMark]

10% ethanol gasoline.

Stoich in LC-1 is 14.7

Haven't had time to work on it today.

[joecar]

If your wideband is showing AFR 9.xx (say 9.00) then you're extremely rich...

E10 stoich AFR is 14.2

LC-1 stoich AFR is 14.7 (why don't you set this to 14.2)

so your actual AFR is 9.00*14.2/14.7 = 8.69

[joecar]

The serial comms connection reads WO2AFR, WO2EQR, and WO2LAM

the last two are independent of stoich AFR and are much more useful for tuning (PE with E00 or E10 uses the same EQR or LAM).

[EagleMark]

The data going to EFI Live is 9.xx AFR. The gauge says 14.xx AFR. There is something wrong with data end, voltage going into V2 is correct.

I've never changed stoich on LC-1 wideband but will give it a try. Have changed stoich in PCM before to match E10 but was 14.3, guess it's splitting hairs 14.2 to 14.3...

Got WOT AFR between 12.5 and 13.0 through three gears! Gonna have to get good data to fine tune it.

[EagleMark]

Got the serial cable from TAQ and worked on this. Now have serial WB, left the Analog signal going in so have analog WB and both sync to my WB gauge. We have data! Thanks for the help!

But I did try changing the stoich to 14.3 for fuel, it changes the settings for AFR in LC-1 programmer analog 1 and 2, so the 0 volt and 5 volt AFR were different and the data to scanner was off? But then again if PID is set for 7.35 to 22.39 and I send it something differant then that was to be expected.

Should I try to change stoich in WB, calibration and PIDS? Would it be worth the effort? Seems like a good idea to match fuel stoich to start good data and tuning? I've done this before with good results but in OBDI tuning software when you make changes to Stoich AFR it will change O2 - Rich/Lean O2 thres vs. Air Flow voltage values! I don't see any of those paremeters in the 98-00 Vortec def, so I don't know if Stioch is being changed properly.

[joecar]

Yes, pid needs to by multiplied by 14.3/14.7.


Easiest best thing to do is to ignore AFR from wideband and use lambda or EQR from wideband instead, and use commanded EQR from PCM...


you should also set B3601 in your tune to match the fuel you're using (if the Vortec definition has this parameter).

[EagleMark]

Easiest best thing to do is to ignore AFR from wideband and use lambda or EQR from wideband instead, and use commanded EQR from PCM...Yes I understand this. What I wanted to do is see AFR numbers I'm used to, besides learn the new to me EFI Live software and verify WB was reading correctly through new hardware/software. Glad I did because it was way off first shot on AD 1. Now I'm seeing the same on Serial, AD and gauge.


you should also set B3601 in your tune to match the fuel you're using (if the Vortec definition has this parameter).Check! :mrgreen:


Yes, pid needs to by multiplied by 14.3/14.7. Now I need guidence to this step of how to modify PIDS. From a lot of reading it seems to be a regular process years ago, an editable file with Notpad (I use EditPad)?

[joecar]

I take it your calc_pids.txt has not been edited by you...?


If so, I can add a display-only AFR pid to the Calc.VET calc_pids.txt file (which has the serial wideband BEN pids that you will want for tuning).

[EagleMark]

Correct. I'll take you up on the offer if it's not something that can be done? I do have skills to edit and the file looks simple.

But that is the calc PID, wouldn't the WO2AFR1, WO2EQR1 and WO2LAM1 PIDs need to be changed? If I change the LC-1 wide band controller to 14.3 to 1 AFR wouldn't those PIDs need to changed to match? Remeber when changing the LC-1 stoich it changed the low/high AFR?

[mr.prick]

{WO2EQR1} & {WO2LAM1} don't get "changed".
Those values are the true output of the WBO2.

If the stoich value of {WO2AFR1} is changed it needs to be close to the PCMs stoich value.
It will never be perfect because of the decimal precision of the PCM is .6 and
Innovates decimal precision is .1


For accurate AFR values:
({WO2LAM1}*Stoich)
(Stoich/{WO2EQR1})

[joecar]

Correct. I'll take you up on the offer if it's not something that can be done? I do have skills to edit and the file looks simple.

But that is the calc PID, wouldn't the WO2AFR1, WO2EQR1 and WO2LAM1 PIDs need to be changed? If I change the LC-1 wide band controller to 14.3 to 1 AFR wouldn't those PIDs need to changed to match? Remeber when changing the LC-1 stoich it changed the low/high AFR?None of those would change...

if you set your LC-1 stoich AFR to 14.3 then this will be reflected in WO2AFR1 (i.e. what the LC-1 serially transmits to V2)...

[joecar]

If you leave the LC-1 soitch AFR at 14.7, then what I meant was I can add some pids for displaying the AFR based on E10 (or whatever fuel you're using)... these would be for display-only and not used for tuning...

e.g. AFR_E10 = 14.3*{EXT.WO2LAM1} as Mr.Prick said above.


( There is a lot to be said for getting used to EQR and Lambda and to forget about AFR )


You would still use the pid WO2BEN for tuning (defined as GM.EQIVRATIO*EXT.WO2LAM1).

[joecar]

Here is the calc_pids.txt file with E00/E10/E85 AFR display-only pids added ( use WO2BEN for tuning )

copy to folder My Documents\EFILive\V7.5\User Configuration

on the pids tab select the pid CALC.AFR;

on gauge/chart/map select one of the pids as applicable: CALC.AFR.E00, CALC.AFR.E10, CALC.AFR.E85.

[EagleMark]

( There is a lot to be said for getting used to EQR and Lambda and to forget about AFR )


You would still use the pid WO2BEN for tuning (defined as GM.EQIVRATIO*EXT.WO2LAM1).

It needs GM.EQIVRATIO? Which is not a valid PID.... More Info is grayed out...

[joecar]

Your PCM does not support EQIVRATIO...!?

Ok, then edit the calc_pids.txt file using Notepad, change {GM.EQIVRATIO}*{EXT.WO2LAM1} to {EXT.WO2AFR1}/{GM.AFR} be surgically precise (don't change anything else).

[EagleMark]

Syntax part was easy...

Now I know you just talked me into using EQRATIO or Lamda and forget about AFR.... but I tried {GM.AFR} and it to is not a valid PID with more info grayed out...

[joecar]

Hmmm, no GM.AFR...? Upon connecting to PCM in vehicle (green button), did you validate pids...?

I would prefer it if GM.EQIVRATIO could be used...

[EagleMark]

Yup tried to validate both PIDs, twice or so..

[mr.prick]

What vehicle/OS?
Select the pids anyways and record, see if you get data.

[EagleMark]

What vehicle/OS?
Select the pids anyways and record, see if you get data.OK, I'll try, but would have never thought of that. WO2BEN has always been 0 data as missing piece of info.

OS 16263425 1998 Chevy Truck using 98-00 Vortec.

Strange you mention trying the PID although not validating, I had choosen a wrong PID by name (Commanded Air Fuel Ratio B-LS2) and it worked. But hardly an accurate way to get data...

That said I'm getting time in to the new software and the WideBand is dialed in because of the help here. :mrgreen: Which led to next step. With all the BEN PIDS there's got to be one already for this OS? If not it would not be the first time I ran into a dead end with this vehicle. So maybe it is something not done yet? Should I even try to look for other valid PIDS to begin with like Lambda or other EQ Ratio? I don't fully understand the next step other then it's the equation needed for tuning. I ran into another issue with Main VE being Grams*Kelvin/kPa and not supported to Percent which I am used to so have another learning step there.

[joecar]

The various BEN pids are for the various analog widebands (you have serial comms os you can avoid those) and not OS based...

you have serial comms with your wideband, so you could specifically use CALC.BEN1 or CALC.WO2BEN (it would be a step backward to use the analog BEN pids).

[joecar]

The pids EXT.WO2LAM1, EXT.WO2EQR1, EXT.WO2AFR1 are provided by FlashScan V2 from reading serial comms from the wideband, those are not PCM/OS dependent.

[joecar]

To be able to tune using a wideband, you need the pids:
- commanded Lambda from the PCM,
- measured Lambda from the wideband;

note that Lambda can e expressed in various forms:
- EQR = 1/Lambda
- AFR = stoichAFR * Lambda

[EagleMark]

What vehicle/OS?
Select the pids anyways and record, see if you get data.

I did get lucky on one! Commanded Air Fuel Ratio B - LS2 GM.AFR_B
It says 14.7 in data without change.

Others come up with N/A in data.

[EagleMark]

The pids EXT.WO2LAM1, EXT.WO2EQR1, EXT.WO2AFR1 are provided by FlashScan V2 from reading serial comms from the wideband, those are not PCM/OS dependent.Got all those squared away.



To be able to tune using a wideband, you need the pids:
- commanded Lambda from the PCM,
- measured Lambda from the wideband;

note that Lambda can e expressed in various forms:
- EQR = 1/Lambda
- AFR = stoichAFR * LambdaHow about Commanded Air Fuel Ratio B - LS2 GM.AFR_B ? It works...

One other that does not work is Commanded Equuivalence Ratio SAE.LAMBDA
Shouldn't an SAE work?

[joecar]

SAE.LAMBDA seems to work only for E38/E67.


If GM.AFR_B works then the WO2BEN pid would be either of these:
- serial wideband: {EXT.WO2AFR1}/{GM.AFR_B}
- analog wideband: {CALC.AFR_LC11}/{GM.AFR_B}

[EagleMark]

Following up on this as I've found Commanded Air Fuel Ratio B - LS2 GM.AFR_B is working and is the missing piece of info always needed for tuning tutorials.

But I have three differant AFR readings now, gauge, analog and serial and none match Commanded? I think this was alluded to earlier but never got there as without Commanded AFR there was no where to go.

Commanded AFR is now 14.22 AFR. PID is GM.AFR_B

LC-1 Wide Band is set to 14.2 and analog 1 and 2 set to 0 volts = 7.10, 5 volts set to 21.30 as outlined by LM Programmer.

Gauge is a Moates O Meter and set to low 7.10 and high 21.20 and shows close to Commanded at around 14.0 with some swing so I'd say accurate.

Anaolog (EXT.AD1) in data is showing 14.37

SAE Generic text shows:
# Innovate LC-1 WBO2
# ========================
*CLC-00-932
V 0.0 5.0 .1 "{EXT.AD1}"
AFR 10.0 20.0 .2 "({EXT.AD1}*3)+7.35"
*CLC-00-933
factor 0.0 2.0 .2 "{CALC.AFR_LC11.AFR}/{GM.AFR}"

So there not only is 7.35 wrong but so is GM.AFR because this Vortec needs GM.AFR_B

Joe set me up with a PID for AFR veiewing on serial and MrPrick gave me a conversion for accuracy earlier but I'm not sure what to do with it? If I can't see AFR correct I have a hard time beleiving EQ or lamda is correct? I don't have any EQ PID or a Lamda PID so the entire tuning based on tutorials is based off AFR from GM.AFR_B

[joecar]

The LC-1 assumes (in a programmable parameter) that stoich is 14.7, it factors this into the analog AFR it reports.

Serial EQ and lambda are regardless of the programmed stoich.

[EagleMark]

This is kicking my butt!

Went back and set calibration to commanded 14.70 AFR.

Changed calc_pid.txt to:
*CLC-00-033
factor 0 1 .0 "{GM.AFR_B}=14.70"

LC-1 heater and free air calibration.

LM Programmer and set to 14.7 AFR and analog 1 and 2 to specs from LC-1 tutorial.
a. 0.88333 Volts at AFR: 10.00
b. 4.21667 Volts at AFR: 20.00

Moates O Meter set to same specs.
a. 0.88333 Volts at AFR: 10.00
b. 4.21667 Volts at AFR: 20.00

Moates O Meter shows 14.7 AFR.

External Wideband AFR WO2-Serial shows avarage 14.3 AFR. Actual value is same.

Wide Band AFR 1 LC-1 WO2 Analog shows average 14.3 AFR. Actual is same.

Seems like anything going through V2 is off by .4 ?

From the sae_generic.txt file
*CLC-00-933
factor 0.0 2.0 .2 "{CALC.AFR_LC11.AFR}/{GM.AFR}"
You'll remember GM.AFR is not a valid PID but all AFR above work anyway. So I still think there is an issue with Vortec there. (read earlier this thread and other thread)

I changed sae_gerneric.txt to read:
*CLC-00-933
factor 0.0 2.0 .2 "{CALC.AFR_LC11.AFR}/{GM.AFR_B}"
All AFR still work and read the same.

Why is AFR from LC-1 analog to Moates O Meter correct and everything through V2 off by approx .4 AFR ? What am I missing?

Log attached... complete log was done with stock untouched sae_generic.txt file From the sae_generic.txt file

[joecar]

In CLC-00-033 use the same value as B3601.

[joecar]

Serial WB AFR (EXT.WO2AFR1) from the LC-1 is what the LC-1's controller actually determined the AFR to be (lambda multiplied by the programmed stoich).

[EagleMark]

In CLC-00-033 use the same value as B3601.Check, both 14.70 AFR

[EagleMark]

Serial WB AFR (EXT.WO2AFR1) from the LC-1 is what the LC-1's controller actually determined the AFR to be (lambda multiplied by the programmed stoich).OK, so the serial is correct 14.70 * .979 = 14.3913. Spot on.

Same for analog!

Since the fuel in vehicle is E10 which is closer to 14.2, is this the reason for difference?

Why does the gauge read differently? It comes from the LC-1 controller...

[joecar]

Does the gauge show lambda...?

Does the gauge know about stoich...?

[EagleMark]

Does the gauge show lambda...? It could, I can check but this is an AFR gauge and just a visual reference for me.


Does the gauge know about stoich...?I'll ask it. :muahaha:

Sent a tech support to Moates to find out.

What's really driving me nuts is I swore I had all three match up when I started this last august, wife was in hospital 62 days so there was a big gap, then started the tune tutorials to make work on Vortec, now just double checking things for accuacy and WHAM! Something not right...

When I here back from Moates and work this out I'll post up what I did wrong.

As always Joe your very helpful! I'd like to buy you some beers if you PM me your paypal? Seriously!

[EagleMark]

To continue on without gauge for now.

Fuel is E10.

So change commanded AFR to 14.22 ?

Changed calc_pid.txt to:
*CLC-00-033
factor 0 1 .0 "{GM.AFR_B}=14.22"

Change LC-1 to 14.22. But what about analog 1 and 2 settings? Leave them as
a. 0.88333 Volts at AFR: 10.00
b. 4.21667 Volts at AFR: 20.00 ?

[joecar]

Yes, set B3601 to 14.22 to allow the PCM to calculate the correct fuelmass.

Yes, set CLC-00-033 to 14.22.

Yes, set LC-1 to 14.22 since your WO2BEN is defined as {EXT.WO2AFR2}/{GM.AFR_B}.

If you're using serial wideband, then the LC-1 analog settings are not relevant

( i.e. the LC-1 uses the programmed AFR:voltage points only for driving it's analog output )

If you're using analog wideband, then WO2BEN would have been defined in terms of CALC.AFR_LC11 (which is defined in terms of EXT.AD1).

[EagleMark]

If you're using serial wideband, then the LC-1 analog settings are not relevant

( i.e. the LC-1 uses the programmed AFR:voltage points only for driving it's analog output )

Thanks Joe. I caught on to that a few days ago ago, it was part of the confusion! Now it's a matter of separating the two in my old brain...

But I'm still applying what you've been teaching to analog as well during the process! :good:

Not sure what for yet with serial available ?

[EagleMark]

Change LC-1 to 14.22. But what about analog 1 and 2 settings? Leave them as
a. 0.88333 Volts at AFR: 10.00
b. 4.21667 Volts at AFR: 20.00 ?Just to follow up with this analog side. If the LC-1 was set to 14.7 and the voltages were set, the only change needed is AFR under Custom Setting to 14.22 and the analog 1 and 2 voltages change automatically!

[EagleMark]

Does the gauge show lambda...?
The gauge will display lambda. Since this is how WB works and preferred method I've given up on my visual reference to AFR, although it does show accurate AFR to commanded from PCM.

So I set the LC-1 in Logworks 14.2 (same 14.2 commanded stoich as calibration and fuel of E10) to display lambda on analog 1 from .50 to 1.50 volts with lamda at 1.0
Serial WB from V2 shows .98 and gauge shows .93-94 Still off by about the same amount as Serial was compared to analog and gauge when using AFR.

So something is still off. I know you will say the serial is correct, but logworks says it is correct. I don't care who is correct, for now I'll say I am not correct, tell me why? I want to know what is accurate?

[joecar]

Does the gauge assume 14.7 as stoich...?

The serial is what the LC-1 reports (in text format).

[EagleMark]

No it's set for lambda... The Moates O-Mater can do both AFR or Lambda display and has low and high voltage settings. Plus it's a data logger.

Found the problem!

Decided to just change the LC-1 controller and wide band sensor with my other that has worked fine on other vehicles. While uninstalling and reinstalling I noticed the serial plug was tight on new LC-1 controller, checked the old LC-1 controller and serial plug was loose!! New controller has never had the TAquickness serial adapter, old one has! I stopped using the serial adapter cable and went back to LC-1 cable with serial end and used a null modem so I could change and connect to my LC-1 through Log Works and LM Programmer and still plug into V2.

New controller is accurate!

Fixed streched out serial plug on old LC-1 controller from the TAquickness adapter and reinstalled and it to is now accurate. Readings in lambda through V2 match Logworks and match gauge!

There goes a half days work along with who knows how many hours over months of frustration!

[joecar]

Glad you found it... :cheers:

[EagleMark]

From another thread I did not want to hijack...


EXT.WO2AFR1 is based on the stoich AFR programmed into the wideband...


e.g. LC-1 factory default has stoich 14.7; it can be user programmed to say 14.2, in which case it reports the AFR based on stoich 14.2, this is what EXT.WO2AFR1 reports.


Not all widebands allow the stoich AFR to be reprogrammed.


LC is safe at lambda 1.10.

PE requires lambda 0.86.


But, the PCM still needs to know the stoich AFR of the fuel it is using, this is parameter B3601... so if you run E10 you set B3601 to something in the range 13.8-14.3...


the alcohol test kits come with a chart showing stoich AFR for gasoline with various percentages of alcohol.


Once you set B3601 to the value your test kit says, then you do all your tuning in lambda.OK, I know Lambda, but when I was doing this I still had AFR stuck in my brain, hard to loose AFR altogether because it's the first thing you have to set! Then forget!

After reading all that I'm not sure the way I came up with 13.9 AFR for E fuel here with WB data is correct? Although I have no more fuel trim issues.

LC-1 programmed for 14.7 and B3601 14.7 big fuel trims. Log EXT.WO2AFR1 showed 13.9 Lambda was about .97 WB Display only E10 13.9

LC-1 programmed for 14.2 and B3601 14.2 less fuel trim. Log EXT.WO2AFR1 showed 13.9 lambda was about .97 WB Display only E10 13.9

LC-1 programmed 13.9 and B3601 13.9 no to minus fuel trim. Log EXT.WO2AFR1 showed 13.8 Lambda was about .98 WB Display only E10 13.9

This was done over a long period, just spent an hour looking at logs to verify, I may have made a mistake, was not trying to accomplish this but seems to have worked.

Is what I did posssible? It seems to have worked correctly. No I have not used a ethanol test kit... yet... I may depending on what you think of results above.

[joecar]

Could be...

it makes me wonder how the LC-1 knows stoich AFR...?

Yes, post logs if possible.

[EagleMark]

It took me forever to go through logs and notes... this was over 6 months, had to find logs with correct pids to compare, was doing several tutorials, I'd be embarresed to show them.

If you think this is possible I'll do accurate testing and logs, with same identical tune. What should I do? LC-1 set to 14.7 and B3601 set to 14.7. Then 14.2, then 13.9?

I'm fairly confedent with my findings and not afraid to prove this accedently found theory wrong... if you think it's plauseable?

[joecar]

More simply: set LC-1 to say 11.0 (leave B3601 as is), and see what EXT.WO2AFR1 reports during CL and PE.


Anything is possible/plausible.

[EagleMark]

Theory is wrong... :frown:

Programmed the LC-1 to 11.0 and EXT.WO2AFR1 showed 10.98...

Just went back and looked a data and it's 13.9 no matter what B3601 AFR or Lc-1 was programmed log I looked at? Maybe this was always the issue I cleared up with the loose serial plug that drove me nuts all this time? Remember I could never get serial, AD1 or AD2/Gauge to match? Well they all match now... best part of this lesson was Lambda was always the same!

Now I really hate AFR!!! :ranting:

For kicks I changed B3601 to 14.7 and the LTFT just started to go up, they were fairly consistent at 0 to -2. I'm back to 13.9 and going to get an Ethonal test kit... dam it... at least I'll be able to sleep tonight!

[joecar]

Lambda rules :cheers: