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mtnman
February 28th, 2006, 11:58 AM
I've programmed my lc-1 analog 2 for the following:

0.88333 Volts at AFR: 10.00
4.21667 Volts at AFR: 20.00



and at temp of 180 degrees and above I'm getting :

CALC.AFR_LC12 (volts) = 0.6
CALC.AFR_LC12 (AFR) = 9.29
Does this look right for idle values in efilive or should tweak the calc pids equation some?

joecar
February 28th, 2006, 12:22 PM
Post a picture of your LC-1 response curve (as you programmed into your LC-1).

Post the calculated pid text that you're using for CALC.AFR_LC12.

The way you programmed your LC-1, it should be flatlining at 0.88333V and should not be outputing a lower voltage.

mtnman
February 28th, 2006, 12:42 PM
Here they are.

488

489

joecar
February 28th, 2006, 01:49 PM
For (10.0,0.883) and (20.0,4.216) use the following:

"({EXT.AD1} - 0.883) * 3 + 10"
"({EXT.AD2} - 0.883) * 3 + 10"


Here's how I got the 3 (the slope)...
(20.0-10.0)/(4.216-0.883) = 3.000

Because you're not zero based, you have to subtract 0.883 from analog voltage before multiplying by the slope.

Sanity check...
(0.883-0.883)*3.000+10.0= 10.0
(4.216-0.883)*3.000+10.0= 19.999

Anything ouside the range 0.883V..4.216V is meaningless (should flatline at those voltages);
Why are you seeing 0.6V...?

Temporarily program your LC-1 to put out 2.5V at both AFR's and see what {EXT.AD1} or {EXT.AD2} read...?

Edit: These...
"({EXT.AD1} - 0.883) * 3 + 10"
"({EXT.AD2} - 0.883) * 3 + 10"

simplify to:
"{EXT.AD1} * 3 + 7.351"
"{EXT.AD2} * 3 + 7.351"

So you had the calc pids correct, but it pays to sanity check since
these calc pids are for the LC-1 default points (7.35,0.0) (22.39,5.0).

mtnman
March 1st, 2006, 06:41 AM
Programmed the LC-1 wb02 to 2.5v with the pid values you provided and the idle scanned values were :

Min 1.3V, 11.19 AFR

Avg 1.3V,11.20 AFR

Max 1.3V, 11.24 AFR

Tordne
March 1st, 2006, 06:48 AM
Programmed the LC-1 wb02 to 2.5v with the pid values you provided and the idle scanned values were :

Min 1.3V, 11.19 AFR

Avg 1.3V,11.20 AFR

Max 1.3V, 11.24 AFR

So in that cazse it loks like the VE is still going to be dropped by quite a bit from stock, which is interesting :nixweiss:. But at least not the AFR values should be accurate.

Let me know how you go...

joecar
March 1st, 2006, 07:40 AM
Programmed the LC-1 wb02 to 2.5v with the pid values you provided and the idle scanned values were :

Min 1.3V, 11.19 AFR

Avg 1.3V,11.20 AFR

Max 1.3V, 11.24 AFR
Ouch...

You programmed your LC-1 to output a flatline 2.5V and you're reading 1.3V at the AD1/AD2 inputs (orange plug)...?

You're dropping 1.2V somewhere...
How're you connected/grounded (diagram...?)...?

Using a DMM, what is the voltage across the orange plug...?

mtnman
March 1st, 2006, 11:52 AM
White, blue and black are grounded at the same location (chassis ground).


Brown -> flascan C {EXT.AD2}
green -> flashscan D analog voltage common ground

Should black, green and white all be connected together to flashcan "D" location?

joecar
March 1st, 2006, 12:10 PM
White, blue and black are grounded at the same location (chassis ground). Black should not be grounded (this is the calibration wire, grounding this causes the LC-1 to calibrate);

First, remove the black wire from ground and measure voltage again (looking for 2.5V at EXT.AD2).

Then, if it's still not right, remove the white wire from ground.

Do you have the LED connected between white and black...?
If you do, the LED flashing without pausing means the LC-1 is calibrating.

I have my white and green not grounded:
I use green as the "floating ground" for the NBO2 connection,
and white as the "floating ground" for the EXT.AD2 connection.

mtnman
March 1st, 2006, 12:12 PM
i read on the sticky here that white goes to green which goes to flashscan D location, is this right?

joecar
March 1st, 2006, 12:30 PM
i read on the sticky here that white goes to green which goes to flashscan D location, is this right? Either or both of the green and white wires can go to FlashScan pin D.

I previously had green and white tied together, but now I have them separate and I get the same results
(I get out the same test voltages (+/- 0.1V) that I program into the LC-1).

This is what I now did with mine... http://forum.efilive.com/showpost.php?p=17718&postcount=47

mtnman
March 1st, 2006, 12:37 PM
disconnected the black wire from ground, no change

disconnected the white wire from ground and

wb02 v is 1.3, wb02 afr is 11.31. i dont have the voltmeter on me, couldnt find it

joecar
March 1st, 2006, 12:38 PM
disconnected the black wire from ground, no change

disconnected the white wire from ground and

wb02 v is 1.3, wb02 afr is 11.31. i dont have the voltmeter on me, couldnt find it
Is the LED flashing...?
You have to wait for LED to stop flashing.

Edit: Disconnect power to LC-1 for a moment, then reconnect it, wait for LED to stop flashing, then look at AD2.

mtnman
March 1st, 2006, 01:11 PM
ok, now the wb02 is showing 0.7 volts and 9.55 afr.

for the sae pid calcs you gave me and 0.88333 afr at 10v and 4.216 at 20afr

Tordne
March 1st, 2006, 02:00 PM
Isn't a reading of .7 invalid (out of range) then if .8xxx is suposed to be the minimum?

joecar
March 1st, 2006, 02:33 PM
Isn't a reading of .7 invalid (out of range) then if .8xxx is suposed to be the minimum? That's correct it's invalid (out of range);
minimum is 0.883V as shown in the picture of the LC-1 programming application.

mtnman something's wrong, you really need a DMM here...

mtnman
March 1st, 2006, 02:40 PM
:bawl: :bawl: :bash: :bash:

joecar
March 1st, 2006, 02:55 PM
Where did you buy your LC-1 from...?
Innovate will repair them, sometimes free of charge.

If you have it out of the vehicle, do a bench test:
lay it on your bench, and tape all the wires down (so that they don't short);
connect:
LED across black and white
red to 12V (car battery)
blue to ground (car battery)
serial to PC/laptop

program LC-1 to put out 2.5V flatline,
remove power for a moment, reconnect power
wait for LED to stop flashing;

measure between brown and green for 2.5V,
and between brown and white for 2.5V.

If you don't get see both of these, you need to have it repaired.

It is very important to NOT allow the brown and yellow wires to short to ANYTHING as this will kill the LC-1.

mtnman
March 1st, 2006, 02:58 PM
The values did change a bit after I changed the ground for the blue wire. Even though something's still screwed, do all the hookups look right? :

green ->to flashscan
brown to flashscan
yellow not hookedup
white not hooked up
black to led and pushbutton (pushbutton and led to ground)
red to switched power supply

I forgot to mention that I had to reattach the the wires for the serial in and serial out connectors. I know the wires are securely attached. Are the connectors the same internally, although one is marked in and one is marked out? Could I have these backwards. I wouldnt think that they're different.

mtnman
March 1st, 2006, 03:20 PM
Where did you buy your LC-1 from...?
Innovate will repair them, sometimes free of charge.

If you have it out of the vehicle, do a bench test:
lay it on you bench, and tape all the wires down (so that they don't short);
connect:
LED across black and white
red to 12V (car battery)
blue to ground (car battery)
serial to PC/laptop

program LC-1 to put out 2.5V flatline,
remove power for a moment, reconnect power
wait for LED to stop flashing;

measure between brown and green for 2.5V,
and between brown and white for 2.5V.

If you don't get see both of these, you need to have it repaired.

It is very important to NOT allow the brown and yellow wires to short to ANYTHING as this will kill the LC-1.

Thanks JoeCar, I'll do some testing on the exit volts of the wires after i find the voltmeter.

WicketMike
March 1st, 2006, 05:20 PM
im having a very similar problem (maybe the same)

i bought mine from dynotune. where did you get yours?

joecar
March 1st, 2006, 06:39 PM
The values did change a bit after I changed the ground for the blue wire. Even though something's still screwed, do all the hookups look right? :

green ->to flashscan
brown to flashscan
yellow not hookedup
white not hooked up
black to led and pushbutton (pushbutton and led to ground)
red to switched power supply ...and blue to battery ground, I presume;
yes, these look correct;
when engine is running, measure voltage on red wire wrt blue wire, should be better than 12V.


I forgot to mention that I had to reattach the the wires for the serial in and serial out connectors. I know the wires are securely attached. Are the connectors the same internally, although one is marked in and one is marked out? Could I have these backwards. I wouldnt think that they're different. If you have these backwards, the Windows LC-1 programming application won't find the LC-1 and you won't see the programmed voltages as you posted earlier.

joecar
March 1st, 2006, 06:44 PM
im having a very similar problem (maybe the same)

i bought mine from dynotune. where did you get yours?
See if it passes the "bench test"; if it doesn't, contact Innovate to see what they can do for you.

I bought mine from Innovate's website.

joecar
March 1st, 2006, 06:49 PM
Thanks JoeCar, I'll do some testing on the exit volts of the wires after i find the voltmeter. You're welcome. Let us know what you see.
:cheers:

mtnman
March 2nd, 2006, 02:28 AM
...and blue to battery ground, I presume;
yes, these look correct;
when engine is running, measure voltage on red wire wrt blue wire, should be better than 12V.

No, I have the blue wire connected to chassis ground (the body of the truck).

joecar
March 2nd, 2006, 03:02 AM
No, I have the blue wire connected to chassis ground (the body of the truck). With your DMM, measure the voltage between the battery negative terminal and the blue wire (may need 2 people to do this).

joecar
March 2nd, 2006, 03:04 AM
And also do this...


when engine is running, measure voltage on red wire wrt blue wire, should be better than 12V.

mtnman
March 3rd, 2006, 02:11 AM
I measured voltage between the brown and green wires, 1.32 volts. Havent measured other voltages yet, because other wires are behind the dash. I'll keep ya posted.

Joecar, when we're done with troubleshooting this, it may be a good idea to append this (type of troubleshooting) to the lc-1 install manual.

joecar
March 3rd, 2006, 03:15 AM
Programmed for flatline 2.5V and you see 1.32V across brown and green...?

Doesn't look good, but we'll see what the other voltages are (brown and white, red and blue).

Good idea, we'll get some kind of troubleshooting steps added.

mtnman
March 3rd, 2006, 04:24 AM
Programmed for flatline 2.5V and you see 1.32V across brown and green...?

That is correct.

ace68
March 3rd, 2006, 04:36 AM
I remember when I first installed my LC-1, I had to move the ground location because it was not working properly where it was for some reason. Although the ground looked, to me, to be a good solid location it just didn't work out. Once I moved the ground the LC-1 calabrated and worked much better for some reason.

joecar
March 3rd, 2006, 06:24 AM
Yes, if you don't have a good ground for the blue wire, you won't get enough voltage to run the LC-1.

TAQuickness
March 3rd, 2006, 07:06 AM
One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet..

While you had your black wire attached to ground, you caused the LC-1 to enter the free air-calibration multiple times. This would imply your readings will be all effed up.

If you haven't already, follow the steps in the LC-1 manual to recalibrate the heater and perform a free air calibration. I believe these steps are titled "first time use".

joecar
March 3rd, 2006, 07:12 AM
While you had your black wire attached to ground, you caused the LC-1 to enter the free air-calibration multiple times. This would imply your readings will be all effed up.

If you haven't already, follow the steps in the LC-1 manual to recalibrate the heater and perform a free air calibration. I believe these steps are titled "first time use".
Very good point, need to recalibrate in free air.

mtnman
March 3rd, 2006, 12:59 PM
yeah, i calibrated in free air the first time i used it. I havent done another free air calibration since then. I'll do the free air and sensor calibrations again.

Joecar,

Here are the voltages for the wires :


measure between brown and green for 2.5V,
read 1.32 v

and between brown and white for 2.5V.
1.29v

----------------------------------------------

joecar:With your DMM, measure the voltage
between the battery negative terminal and the
blue wire (may need 2 people to do this).
11.8 volts
----------------------------------------------

joeCar:And also do this...
when engine is running, measure
voltage on red wire wrt blue wire,
should be better than 12V.
11.8

11.87 at the battery too.

joecar
March 3rd, 2006, 01:22 PM
mtnman,

Between battery negative and blue wire I was expecting less than 0.5V;
the aim of this measurement was to see if blue was grounded properly.

Between red and blue: you show 11.8V with engine running...
I think you need better than 12.0V for the LC-1 to operate properly...

You may want to inquire about this on the Innovate forum...
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=10

You may still have an internal problem with your LC-1.

Regards
Joe

mtnman
March 4th, 2006, 08:15 AM
Joecar, brain fart on the voltages. those were measurements without engine running, with engine running i was getting 12+volts for power.

Did a sensor calibration and worked on the free air calibration for about 2 hours, had to run LM programmer about 3 times, but now I'm showing an average of 2.5 volts and 14.70 afr for wb02 in efilive. So looks like things are good. Thanks for your help

joecar
March 4th, 2006, 09:03 AM
Joecar, brain fart on the voltages. those were measurements without engine running, with engine running i was getting 12+volts for power.

Did a sensor calibration and worked on the free air calibration for about 2 hours, had to run LM programmer about 3 times, but now I'm showing an average of 2.5 volts and 14.70 afr for wb02 in efilive. So looks like things are good. Thanks for your help Good work, glad you got it running.
:cheers:

Every so often (once a month), program flatline voltage and measure for a sanity check (I do 1.5V, 2.5V, 3.5V);
and then remember to program back your voltage/afr points.

TAQuickness
March 4th, 2006, 10:41 AM
When all else fails, rtfm ;)

mtnman
March 4th, 2006, 10:55 AM
When all else fails, rtfm ;)

rtfm? read the f**** manual? Oh, thanks to you too TA, for the calibration reminder. It was in the back of my head to do it, but when you mention the black being grounded on every startup, it seemed even more important to perform these calibrations again

TAQuickness
March 4th, 2006, 11:16 AM
rtfm? read the f**** manual? Oh, thanks to you too TA, for the calibration reminder. It was in the back of my head to do it, but when you mention the black being grounded on every startup, it seemed even more important to perform these calibrations again


actually, it's read the fricking manual... just an acronym we throw around at work to lighten up tense troubleshooting moments :D