Seeking Advice on tuning a heavily modified 4L60E

[HellKnightHicks]

Here are the details on the Tranny

http://www.maddogtransmissions.com/Level_4_4L60E_4L65E_Transmisson_p/l4%204l60e-fslash-4l65e.htm

Level 4 transmission
Mad Dog shift kit
Raybestos 15 clutch Z-pak (replaces factory 5 clutches in the 3-4 drum)
Raybestos high temp high energy clutches through out the rest
all new steels, band, bushings, and rings.
A 500 boost valve
10 vane pump rotor.
4140 hardened pump rings.
Specialized bronze ring to re-enforce the hardened input shaft and drum.
TEFLON pump bushing
29 element double-gauged sprag
4 pinion planetary gear (which has also been cold-freezed)
3" wide high-temp Pro-Series Kevlar band
Corvette Servo/Super Sonnax 4th gear Servo
Beast heavy-duty Sun Shell.
Sonnax aluminum accumulators
Stage 3 Shift kit Saturday night special. Described as "very violent!" (Its firm but i wouldnt call it violent)

13987

Tourq Reduction has been disabled.
Line pressure for the 3->4 shift has been up to no lower than 71 across the board.

What changes to the tune would you guys recommend. I am still dialing in the VE table but am doing some small mods to the tranny's tune at the moment.

Thanks

PS I've spoken Breifly with Taz about making some changes to the tune and he reccomended that i post my tune and start a thread

The transmission is not Currently BANG shifting or breaking traction during shifts. (not that its desired to do so. More or less just to let you guys know how its acting.)

[Taz]

Good description of the transmission hard parts. It would be helpful to describe what is good / not good from your perspective for each of the shifts - 1>2, 2>3, 3>4, and 4>3, 3>2, 2>1.

Once the Forum membership understands how you would like it to shift, suggestions will probably start flowing.


Regards,
Taz

[Taz]

Took a very quick look at the tune you posted. The 1>2 and 2>3 Shift Times increase with increases in delivered torque - these should either be constant , or decrease with increases in delivered torque.

I would also recommend disabling (zero out) the Low Pressure Adjust for all shifts. That way, shift pressures are at minimum that which you configured - High Pressure Adjust could remain active.

Once you describe the shifts - more suggestions will no doubt follow.


Regards,
Taz

[HellKnightHicks]

Leveled 1->2 D1108 to .225
Leveled 2->3 D1109 to .25

Zeroed
D1101 Low pressure Adjust 1-2 to 0's
D1102 Low pressure Adjust 2-3 to 0's
D1102 Low Pressure Adjust 3-4 Already 0ed

Upped 3->4 D0703 table to 65PSI

I wont make any complaints until ive tried this modification.

Though going from a stock TC to a 2000~2200 is quite an adjustment. lol its so odd that your shifting gears and the rpms really arent changing (at low throtle).




Lowest values in the stock tables.

[slows10]

Why not drive it for a while and put some miles on it and get used to it? I dont see a specific complaint Did the trans builder to tell you what values to use for your specif application?(maybe I am missing the obvious?) The trans sounds like a well built unit. With hard parts that are obviously needed with this trans. This trans build is a basic hi-po build that is needed for perf use. This parts combo has been used 10,000 times before. It is what is needed to make this trans live. I would like to see a review of how you think this trans performs, for the dollars invested. If this is going in a heavy truck with some sort of forced induction there are many stories of failure. Hope yours is different. I we and some friends have taken the best 4l60 in the mid to late 90s and easily pushed them to their limit, as many others have.But that is with old software not old hard parts. Kinda hoping your thread will be differnt and people with alot more trans exp will chime in and help get this thing set up right.

[HellKnightHicks]

Thanks for the reccomendations Taz
The shifts are much more consistent.

The only complaint that i have at this point is the 2-3 shift. It feels as though it stiff like i like it at low rpm but more mild with more throttle.

I may go ahead and up the 3-4 shift pressure to 96 psi It was much firmer and consistent @ 71 (thx again Taz)

What can i do to make the 2-3 shifts more consistent?

[slows10]

You can try reading the many threads on this forum about transmission function and tuning. Joecar has spent a ton of time posting tutorials and info with the answers to your questions. They are a great read to understand how this trans works.

[joecar]

BTW:

- in your tune file, set PE B3618 to enable easier (e.g. compare with stock 2002 Camaro);

- set PE Delay Counter B3609 to zeros;

- may want to set Max Allowed Engine Torque B1901 to some higher value.

- since you have failed the MAF, set P0101,2,3 to either of A:1-Trip or C:Non-Emissions in C6001.

[joecar]

D1207: lower this a little (compare D1206, D1207 with stock 2002 Camaro).

D0703: looks wrong (should have no zero flat line, should look similar to D0701, D0702).

D1101,2,3: I agree with Taz, zero these.

D1108,9,10: set these to 0.2s all across.

D0960,1,2: set these to all 100%.

[joecar]

Make sure each WOT downshift MPH parameter is below the corresponding WOT upshift MPH parameter (at least 5 mph lower)

( same applies to each TP axis point of the PT downshift/upshift tables )

[joecar]

D0701,2,3: by 395 ftlb, you want to be above 60 psi, maybe even above 80 psi (these indirectly control line pressure during a shift).

D0801,2,3: use these to adjust shift feel (i.e. using engine torque reduction rather than line pressure reduction).

[joecar]

Install 300 psi gauge at the tap on the side of the case so it can be observed while driving...

observe pressure while driving...

at WOT it has to be somewhere around 180-220 psi depending on the trans build...

if it's below that then you have to address this (VE/MAF tables and physically inside trans).

[darcy]

The only complaint that i have at this point is the 2-3 shift. It feels as though it stiff like i like it at low rpm but more mild with more throttle.

What can i do to make the 2-3 shifts more consistent?

You have a bunch of Torque reduction enabled on the 2>3 shift, whereas it's zero'd out on 1>2 & 3>4.
This will make a big difference to the feel of the shift.

[HellKnightHicks]

in your tune file, set PE B3618 to enable easier (e.g. compare with stock 2002 Camaro);
-Copied Tables from Stock 2002 Camaro

set PE Delay Counter B3609 to zeros;
Zeroed out

may want to set Max Allowed Engine Torque B1901 to some higher value.
set to 640

since you have failed the MAF, set P0101,2,3 to either of A:1-Trip or C:Non-Emissions in C6001.
Done

D1207: lower this a little (compare D1206, D1207 with stock 2002 Camaro).
Matched Stock Camaro Tune

D0703: looks wrong (should have no zero flat line, should look similar to D0701, D0702).
Looked at the stock Camaro tune an and in performance mode it commands 90 accross the board.. I wanted the 3->4 shift to be more noticable and uppded the lower half of the table. If this is incorrect please advise and i will adjust it.

D1101,2,3: I agree with Taz, zero these.
Previously done

D1108,9,10: set these to 0.2s all across.
Done,Done,Done

D0960,1,2: set these to all 100%.
Done,Done,Done

D0701,2,3: by 395 ftlb, you want to be above 60 psi, maybe even above 80 psi (these indirectly control line pressure during a shift).
Upped Entire tables by % to reach midlle of 60~80 PSI range as described for each table

D0801,2,3: use these to adjust shift feel (i.e. using engine torque reduction rather than line pressure reduction).
Copied and reduced tables from Camaro Tune for each of the listed tables.. Reduced by approximation of 15%
Did not make adjustments to D0803 Waiting for response to erlyer statment above


Install 300 psi gauge at the tap on the side of the case so it can be observed while driving...

observe pressure while driving...

at WOT it has to be somewhere around 180-220 psi depending on the trans build...

if it's below that then you have to address this (VE/MAF tables and physically inside trans).

Where is the tap? I dunno anything about that. anyone have a photo?

Thanks for all of the help... Ill drive it with the recommended adjustments and see how i like it and then adjust the TM per your recommendations

I didnt really want to re-enable TM but it does make more sense to mess with the shift firmness that way than it does to much with the line pressures.

[HellKnightHicks]

13998

[joecar]

...
D0703: looks wrong (should have no zero flat line, should look similar to D0701, D0702).
Looked at the stock Camaro tune an and in performance mode it commands 90 accross the board.. I wanted the 3->4 shift to be more noticable and uppded the lower half of the table. If this is incorrect please advise and i will adjust it.
...You may have been looking at a Camaro manual trans file (pressure tables set to 90 psi).



...
Where is the tap? I dunno anything about that. anyone have a photo?
...
It's on the left side of the case, approx in the middle of the vertical/round surface above the shift lever.

[Taz]

... You may have been looking at a Camaro manual trans file (pressure tables set to 90 psi) ...

Hi Joe,

I had made some comments via PM that are not yet in this thread. For competition use I had suggested D0703 (3>4) could be flat lined (or have a very steep curve) to 96 PSI - in all, or virtually all, cells.

Many A4 T42 controllers are set to 90 PSI in all cells for the 3>4 shift by the OEM.


Cheers,
Taz

[joecar]

Hi Taz,

Ah, I see.

Cheers.

[HellKnightHicks]

The PE seems to have made a difference.

Im going to have to mess with TQ management but these changes seem to have made some positive changes on the transmission... It feels more solid.

Something that I notice is that alot of times the engine seems to bog down during a gear change the come out of it about half a second latter. Is that normal? Ive never noticed that before. At wide open throttle or heavy throttle it doesnt seem to do that.

Any way thanks for all of the information and sugested changes.

[HellKnightHicks]

Did some driving... Its really firmed up the tranny almost too firm at points... Adding in some TM as needed ;)

Oh yea one other thing i forgot to mention is that I'm running royal Purple Racing ATF in this thing.

I really like what youve helped me do here.

[joecar]

Engine bog during shift:

log SHIFTLAST and see what shift time it reports when engine bogs...

if logged shift times are 0.2s (same as in tune) then look at wideband during shift, does it momentarily jump lean or rich...?

also, are VE/MAF tables correct...? (these being correct has another importance also, the PCM computes running line pressure from these).

[darcy]

The TM can feel like a bog/hesitation mid-change, as it pulls out timing, to me.
Have a look in the log and see if there is a huge downspike in timing.

[HellKnightHicks]

Engine bog during shift:

log SHIFTLAST and see what shift time it reports when engine bogs...

if logged shift times are 0.2s (same as in tune) then look at wideband during shift, does it momentarily jump lean or rich...?

also, are VE/MAF tables correct...? (these being correct has another importance also, the PCM computes running line pressure from these).


Im sure my MAF is not correct... Havent even messed with that yet... VE should be close. Thats prolly where the problem is...

Also when i gun it from about 30 mph It back fires then hauls... Prolly VE or MAF as well

MAF is still failed by the way.

[HellKnightHicks]

Ill try to figure out the SHIFTLAST logging


Ive been warned not to log to many pids at the same time.

How do you watch pids as your logging them?

Will the PID table show that.

Sorry to show my newbness lol

[joecar]

With the LS1B PCM you can log upto 24 pid channels (see bottom of PIDs tab) at 10 frames/second... more than 24 pid channels will reduce the frame speed (5 F/s or less).

[joecar]

Log SHIFTLAST, SPARKADV, and wideband...

then look at SHIFTLAST (does it match the shift time in the tune...?) and look at SPARKADV (what does it drop to...?)

usually the drop in spark advance does not cause the engine to bog (stock tune has a lot of TR and a long shift time)

also look at the wideband AFR/Lambda, what does it do during the shift...?

so basically I think it's due to fueling... $0.02. :)

post some log files


lol, we were all newbies at some time or other, and with all the new stuff coming we're still newbies :)

[HellKnightHicks]

Log SHIFTLAST, SPARKADV, and wideband...

then look at SHIFTLAST (does it match the shift time in the tune...?) and look at SPARKADV (what does it drop to...?)

usually the drop in spark advance does not cause the engine to bog (stock tune has a lot of TR and a long shift time)

also look at the wideband AFR/Lambda, what does it do during the shift...?

so basically I think it's due to fueling... $0.02. :)

post some log files


lol, we were all newbies at some time or other, and with all the new stuff coming we're still newbies :)


Can do thanks

[HellKnightHicks]

The previously posted tune contains the transmission section.

From the looks of it the VE is still a little out of whack.. so that may be the cause of the issue.

Shift times are not as desired as per watching the Last shift log in the data tab.

1->2 shift as desired
2->3 shift was .6 once
3->4 I think was right.

Im posting a couple of videos up to youtube so that i can show you or let you hear the engine bog on the 2->3 gear shift under light throttle.

Log file from my test drive tongiht.14019

[HellKnightHicks]

Went for another run tonight.... Feels like ive got alot more tuning to do to get this thing running like it should. But at least it does run.

Engine starts strong then falls off about 3200 then picks up strong again about 4500 its really odd...

any way enough talk heres the vid so you can get the idea.


http://youtu.be/3385XNBplqQ

[HellKnightHicks]

You can here it bog down there on the 2->3 shift.

It sounds much better in person... the mic is getting hummed due to the resonance.


http://youtu.be/ibsZWxeoOCc

[joecar]

What stall and what axle gears...?

[HellKnightHicks]

2200~2400 Stall
Stock 3.73 I think

1997 K1500 Chevy

383 w/Cam
Marine intake L31

http://forum.gmtruckcentral.com/showthread.php/185-my-383-w-marine-intake

[darcy]

in your tune file, set PE B3618 to enable easier (e.g. compare with stock 2002 Camaro);
-Copied Tables from Stock 2002 Camaro


I think Joe may meant B3616;the PE enable threshold -it was set @ 90%.
Since your B3605 is flat across the table; this results in commanding stoich all the time unless TPS > 90%, regardless of MAP.
Your VE table is fairly erratic too.

[joecar]

Yes, that is correct, B3616... sorry, my mistake (my fingers sometimes type by themselves).

[HellKnightHicks]

I think Joe may meant B3616;the PE enable threshold -it was set @ 90%.
Since your B3605 is flat across the table; this results in commanding stoich all the time unless TPS > 90%, regardless of MAP.
Your VE table is fairly erratic too.

Yea i kept trying to smooth it out be keep seeing the same spikes occuring... I didnt think it was supposed to be so erratic but thats what i keep getting... What do you sugest that i do with it?

[HellKnightHicks]

Yes, that is correct, B3616... sorry, my mistake (my fingers sometimes type by themselves).

Should i return the other table to stock then... Sorry ive been MIA truck broke down and just got threw fixing it this afternoon.

[joecar]

Set B3616 (PE Enable) the same as for 2002 Camaro.

[HellKnightHicks]

Set B3616 (PE Enable) the same as for 2002 Camaro.

and B3618 I put it back to stock for k1500

Would a log file help... I can post my next log and tune. I can also put the LAST shift time PID in there if that would help.

I probyably wont have enough money for a trans pressure guage for a little bit...

[joecar]

Yes, post a log file... with the scantool insert a bookmark at the location around where the bog occurs...

[HellKnightHicks]

Yes, post a log file... with the scantool insert a bookmark at the location around where the bog occurs...


Umm my inner tard/newb is coming out.... Um how do one do that?

[joecar]

lol, actually it's not obvious...


position the cursor on the chart where the bog occurs, click F2 (to lock the cursor), then go Dashboard->Add Note and add a Note (ah, I called it a Bookmark, sorry)...

when done, click F2 again (to unlock the cursor)...

save the log file (saves the bookmark).


( lol, I spend a lot of time in this software :) )

[HellKnightHicks]

lol, actually it's not obvious...


position the cursor on the chart where the bog occurs, click F2 (to lock the cursor), then go Dashboard->Add Note and add a Note (ah, I called it a Bookmark, sorry)...

when done, click F2 again (to unlock the cursor)...

save the log file (saves the bookmark).


( lol, I spend a lot of time in this software :) )

When you say charts are you talking about the Auto VE table that ive made? OR something else.. Because the only thing ive done is play with the auto VE stuff. So im not sure which chart your talking about.

[joecar]

Goto the Dashboard (F10) tab, click B, shows a group of charts (where time is the horizontal axis).

[HellKnightHicks]

sorry ive been MIA for a few months. Id been doing the AUTO VE all wrong. Now it doesnt bogg any more on down shifts.

Got headers and a true dual 3" exhaust on it now. Its really coming along.

Thanks again for all of the help learning about the tranny stuff. I never did get a pressure gauge hooked up to it. i will do that at some point. But im pretty satisfied with the way its running right now tranny wise.

[joecar]

sorry ive been MIA for a few months. Id been doing the AUTO VE all wrong. Now it doesnt bogg any more on down shifts.

Got headers and a true dual 3" exhaust on it now. Its really coming along.

Thanks again for all of the help learning about the tranny stuff. I never did get a pressure gauge hooked up to it. i will do that at some point. But im pretty satisfied with the way its running right now tranny wise.What did you do to correct the problem...?

[HellKnightHicks]

Put new exhaust on for starters I had some bad leaks.

2 I filtered out any cell that wasnt hit at least 30 times

Feathered the throttle slowly to hit cells that I hadnt before.

After doing those things its smoothed out alot. Im still going to do some more logs with it but I think it was hitting bad spots in the VE table. had nothing to do with the tranny tuning.