LC1 Histogram logging

[FreshDA9]

Ok,

I had a 2010 Camaro ss this weekend that has been tuned from a few other shops that the customer is unhappy with the end result. This is the E38 varient computer that i am not even accustom to (I have been working on my LS1B ecu's).

So the problem is when we make the table in the scan Maps (F11), I select AD1 PID witch is voltage. The voltage is correct with the wideband range but I would like to get this to display AF and not volts. Please any help on this. I have seleced the wideband pids like stated in the autove guide for the LC1 etc.

I have read several threads this weekend about using the analog and never found the answer. Other then our LC1's I have an LM2 but I do not have the serial cable yet (already talked to TAQcables). So please no off topic about switching to serial.



Another question in the E38 file under airflow i find my VE tables. what is the proper way to plot the VE normal, VE 2bar, VE 3bar in (F11)? will it log and switch over between maps A-B-C etc? and this SS was supercharged with a ZL1 or ZR1 map sensor (I noticed this is a common swap).

[joecar]

On the PIDs tab select the pid CALC.AFR_LC11, this is the specific LC-1 analog AFR pid... the BEN pid that goes with this is CALC.BEN_LC11.

[joecar]

Whatever MAP sensor you have (1-bar, 2-bar, 3-bar) determines which of the VE tables;


map are populated concurrently as the charts are drawn as data is logged.

[FreshDA9]

On the PIDs tab select the pid CALC.AFR_LC11, this is the specific LC-1 analog AFR pid... the BEN pid that goes with this is CALC.BEN_LC11.

So when I hit Ctrl-Enter and it asks me, should i choose the Calc.AFR or should i choose Calc.Ben? I assume AFR correct?


map are populated concurrently as the charts are drawn as data is logged.

So your saying if i start logging map A and it switches to map B it will still log it correct? i noticed when i connected and started the dashboard that the maps dont log until you hit the pause button. I ask this cause I want to make sure I get the data when in boost correctly.

[joecar]

On the PIDs tab, to select a pid double click on it... select both CALC.AFR_LC11 and CALC.BEN_LC11...

you can also select these when viewing a log (i.e. after the log was captured) and you can save these into a log file.

[joecar]

The maps are built from a log... if the log is currently being logged, then the charts and maps will be "progressing" concurrently with the log being captured.

BTW: click the red record button (not the yellow monitor button).

[FreshDA9]

On the PIDs tab, to select a pid double click on it... select both CALC.AFR_LC11 and CALC.BEN_LC11...

you can also select these when viewing a log (i.e. after the log was captured) and you can save these into a log file.


Joecar,

I understand how to select and deselect the PIDs in the list. I think you misinterpreted my question. I am not seeing an AF ratio in my map cells (this because im using the incorrect PID).

When i click Ctrl+Enter brings up the Map Properties screen:
14076
Highlighted in the red what should i have there: I assume the Calc.AFR or should i have the Calc.Ben???

[joecar]

Ah, I see... it should be CALC.BEN_LC11 (since you want a VE correction map).


( on Data tab checkmark Names, it will show the short pid names also )

[FreshDA9]

Thank You Joe! I will be doing this again this weekend and hope the customer leaves with the tune he deserves.

[FreshDA9]

I didnt get much time with the car this weekend but It didnt work. I tried several other PID's and i noticed AD2 was reacting more then AD1 even though i have the analog connected into analog 1 port.

Here are my PID's i cant remember when i switched between them.
14100
14101

here are some logs
14102
14103
14104

I am lost with this :master:

[joecar]

I'll be able to take a look later tonite or tomorrow.

Also, take a look at this thread (applies to E38/E67 and similar): E38-VVE-Setup-Guide (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?8961-E38-VVE-Setup-Guide)

[FreshDA9]

Thanks Joe i read over the PDF in that thread several times and set up exactly to that. I just hope someone can point out a flaw so i can fix it.


Last 2 logs
14105
14106

[joecar]

Can you also post your .tun file

( E38/E67 is a lot deeper water than I can swim in, so it will take me a little longer to analyze )

[FreshDA9]

Here Joecar,
We havent licensed the car just yet. but the other shop file was pulled from the car, named Stock File. We havent licensed and installed our speed density file (this is the tune file i created reading the E38 pdf).


14110
14111

[swingtan]

I just had a look at the tune files.....

I seems you may have missed a step when changing the VVE zones. You didn't copy over the stock VVE and regen the coefficients. The VVE in "Pro Car Speed Density 0001.tun" is way off and I'm hoping you aren't driving that thing around!

What's done to the car? Is it just a stock motor or are there mods done?


Simon

[FreshDA9]

I will look through the PDF again and look for the mistake.

The original tune I pulled out was of 2 other shops previously. I do not have the factory tune and went off what I have.

The Speed Density file has not been uploaded to the car yet. This is all done on our Dyno Dynamics but first I need the LC1 to communicate with the maps so I can dial in the load cells!

-2010 camaro ss manual trans
-Whipple Blower (dont know the psi)
-Comp Cam and valvetrain components (sheet is at the shop with specs)
-Liginfelter Fuel pump
-ZR1 3 bar map
-headers, exhaust, rotofab intake.

Any help would be appreciated.

[swingtan]

OK, see how you go. Here's a really quick guess at the VVE for you to compare with, I wouldn't be surprised if it needs a fair amount of work though....

14118

I'm not sure about what's happening with the LC1. You can play with the VVE just going by the STFT's, but you'd need to turn them back on. Actually, if you did a decently long road log, you could probably get the lower part of the VVE pretty close just using the trims.

Simon.

[FreshDA9]

Thank you Swingtan, when i get home tonight i will look at both these maps.

I noticed they have dfco turned off, they turned off long terms, and they have the maf set to enable 400rpms and disable 300rpms so it looks as if they are running maf all time!

I come from a Japanese and European background in tuning. The owner of the shop is the GM tuner but has given me a challenge as i step more into domestics. I am trying to learn this and am 3 weeks in on reading this forum etc.

Now you said i can do it with stft's is there a pid i can log in the maps to see where i am at with these trims? Also i dont think i found a target AF map for the ve tables, is there one somewhere?

[joecar]

You can easily make a map...

1. in tunetool:
find the table that you want the AFR map to mimic,
highlight the whole table, do copy-with-labels;

2. in scantool:
goto the properties of a new map,
on each of the Row and Col tabs click Paste Labels,
on the Data tab select the AFR you want (checkmark Names),
then on each of Data, Row, Col tabs checkmark Show units;
goto the Cells and Empty tabs and set them appropriately as desired;
save as with a suitable filename.

[joecar]

Hey Simon, thanks for your help, I appreciate your insights :cheers:

[FreshDA9]

Thank you Joe forthe walk through i will try it out as soon as i get to m laptop. I have saved plenty of PID files to use on other situations but for some reason i cannot save the maps i create in the scantool?

[joecar]

You should be able to save the maps... post a screenshot.

[FreshDA9]

I found where you save the maps i dont know how i over looked that.




goto the Cells and Empty tabs and set them appropriately as desired;
save as with a suitable filename.

When i go to either Cells or Empty tabs i cannot change the values for some reason? I have tried double clicking, up and down arrows, number pad nothing?

[joecar]

Cells: first checkmark Constrain cell size.


Empty: should be able to set an empty cell count.

Color: checkmark Colored and High Constrast.

[FreshDA9]

I think i see where the problem is. You are just explaining how to create a map in which i already understood. I was thinking I could make a target A/F map that would link with the normal map and is why we are not understanding each other. I have made the maps before but the LC1 is not showing in the cells (histogram logging).

As simon was saying with the short term fuel trim I take it i just load that pid in the data of the map and can see where i am to do some of the ve.

Also is there a way to make an AF target map or is there a table in the tuner?

[joecar]

I think i see where the problem is. You are just explaining how to create a map in which i already understood. I was thinking I could make a target A/F map that woul d link with the normal ma p and is why we are not understanding each other. I have made the maps before but the LC1 is not showing in the cells (histogram logging).
...I'm not sure exactly what you said...?

:)

[FreshDA9]

LOL im sorry.

I believe you were walking me through how to make a map like stated in the Auto VE tuning guide, correct? If so I understand fully how to do this. I have made map A OL VE normal, map B OL VE extended etc!!

I thought you meant if i make a map that i could make another with a target AF (desired AF) that I could reference. Most other software I use has a target AF that makes it nice and easy to dial in each cell very fast.

And for the LC1 i was just pointing out it was not logging the correct values like it should. The type of logging in the cell (map) is called Histogram logging correct? I was hoping to overlay what my actual values were over my target AF which would have the identical X & Y axis!

[FreshDA9]

Never mind!!! I took the stock serial cable that came with the V2 and found a 2.5mm jack cable cut them and put a weather pack connector between them.. LC1 in serial working flawlessly.

[swingtan]

Excellent! Now get some logging done ;)

[FreshDA9]

Well everything is working fine and going smoothly as far as logging. When pasting with multiplying to the map table if i have no cell count in certain cells it multiples to zero of course and causes the map to go flat and only spike the areas i held in steady state? I tried a few other paste options but no go!! I am puzzeled on this step.

here are a couple logs
14125
14126

[swingtan]

Were those logs from a dyno run, or a drive on the road?

If the former, you need to run Scan tool and display the MAP when performing the run, then attempt to fill all the cells in the MAP with data (the more the better). This will give sufficient data to perform BEN factor corrections to the VVE.

If the later, then you need to log for at least 30 min. non stop on the road with as much varying load conditions as possible. If you want to make the precess easier, log for 2 hours. You need significantly more log data when "street" tuning, compared to on the dyno. That being said, if you are experienced in VVE tuning, you can make corrections with much less data, but you need a lot of experience to do this.

IMO, both these logs have insufficient data to make any significant changes to the VVE on their own. Which tune was in the car for these runs? I reckon I could get the VVE closer using the logs, but it'd be pretty hard if this was your first time.

Simon.

[swingtan]

FYI, here's an image of what you are aiming for. This is a street log that's just over 16MB or about 60 min. worth of log data.

14128

Also, if you're really wanting to dial in the VVE for street conditions, then you can take a series of logs from the same tune and use the log joining utility...

http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?2104-Is-there-a-log-file-joining-utility/page3

Note the requirements for the log files to have exactly the same PID selections, including the PID selection order.

Simon.

[FreshDA9]

Were those logs from a dyno run, or a drive on the road?
Yes this was done on our Dyno Dynamics, this was steady state and i held the cells for a good few seconds to populate


If the former, you need to run Scan tool and display the MAP when performing the run, then attempt to fill all the cells in the MAP with data (the more the better). This will give sufficient data to perform BEN factor corrections to the VVE.
I am confused on this. Am i using the incorrect PID or something?


IMO, both these logs have insufficient data to make any significant changes to the VVE on their own. Which tune was in the car for these runs? I reckon I could get the VVE closer using the logs, but it'd be pretty hard if this was your first time.
Simon I started with the map you posted here. I compared it with my Speed Density file an found only 4 small changes. I am new to this VVE tuning unlike other systems or stand alone im use to using real time programming. Also i don't believe moates makes a road runner for the newer ecu's.

Is there a target AF map that i am to compare these tables to?

Here is my log set up

Map vs RPM
W02AFR1 selected to show in the cells
Checked the X : Average cells shown
I selected Hide cells with low cell count


I copied all with lables then i would paste all and multiply but since the other cells were empty I guess it multiplied my table by ZERO. I had to manual edit everything I did today.

Also im unsure of the generate VE and Coefficients and what they do. To me it seems like it is an alternate form of Interpolation but i see the Interpolate buttons and have used them?

[joecar]

Which BEN pids are you using...?

[FreshDA9]

I would assume the wrong ones. I selected almost all wideband pids for lc1 including the BEN


this is the PID file i was using.
14136

[joecar]

If your LC-1 is set to its default V:AFR curve, then you would use CALC.AFR_LC11 and CALC.BEN_LC11 (for wideband signal coming in on EXT.AD1).

[FreshDA9]

If your LC-1 is set to its default V:AFR curve, then you would use CALC.AFR_LC11 and CALC.BEN_LC11 (for wideband signal coming in on EXT.AD1).

Are you still talking about the analog PID's or am I missing these with the serial cable?

The car should be finished this week but I will not get the honor to do it. So im back to work on my truck and trying to figure out these OS systems etc.


Here is a log on the way home. I see its lean under wot I am commanding 12.8 but its not showing here. I have not turned off my Maf yet nor put it in open loop. Also this pic I didnt hide all the load cells like before
14145

here is a log if anyone wants to look
14146

[joecar]

The analog pids (CALC.AFR_LC11) are via the analog connection... you said somewhere above you do not yet have the serial cable.



When you use the serial cable, the analog connection is not used (and the LC-1's V:AFR curve is not required anymore)...

the serial comms pids are EXT.WO2AFR1, EXT.WO2LAM1, EXT.WO2EQR.

[joecar]

The high map columns in your pic are too lean.

[joecar]

Summary:


Analog: CALC.AFR_xxx, CALC.BEN_xxx.


Serial: EXT.WO2AFR1, EXT.WO2LAM1, EXT.WO2EQR1, EXT.WO2ST1, CALC.BEN1.



Note that instead of CALC.BEN1 we now have a better BEN pid called CALC.WO2BEN (available with the calc_pids.txt file from the Calc.VET thread).

[FreshDA9]

Thank you Joe. I got fed up with the Analog foudn 2 cables cut them and made a serial cable and finally got some logging.

Yes this was taken last night and is extremely lean for some reason. I will be tinkering more. I will look over the VE tuning pdf and put this in open loop and get started on it. where is this Calc.Vet thread under?

[FreshDA9]

Here is my CalcW02ben, just looks like Lambda values to me.

14148

So i just copy with lables this calc ben file and paste and multiply to my VE map?

[joecar]

See post #1 here: A-New-Twist-on-CALC-VE-Table-Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-A-New-Twist-on-CALC-VE-Table-Computing-the-Entire-VE-Table)

Also see this: CALC-VET-Summary-Notes (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?16280-CALC-VET-Summary-Notes)

[joecar]

Here is my CalcW02ben, just looks like Lambda values to me.

14148

So i just copy with lables this calc ben file and paste and multiply to my VE map?

CALC.WO2BEN is defined as GM.EQIVRATIO x EXT.WO2LAM1

i.e. it is the wideband lambda correction of commanded fuel.


If you were running from MAF, then you would make a MAF-like map of WO2BEN and paste-multiply that into the B5001 MAF table [ and the side effect is that CALC.VET is the calculated VE table ]...

[ note that the VE can be explicitly disabled by setting B0120 to zero, or you could note that the transient filter removes data during transient airflow... but note that the PCM uses the VE during transient airflow, so any VE contribution is filtered out even if B0120 is left stock at 4000... lol, there's a few subtleties going on here ]


If you were running from VE, then yes you would do what you said using your VE-like map (but you would have had to disable the MAF by failing it) [ and the side effect here is that CALC.MAFT is the calculated MAF table ].


More info, carefully read post #29 here: Summary-Notes (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14188-Summary-Notes)

[FreshDA9]

Joe thank you. I have a lot of reading to do now. It looks as if I really need to go over my PIDs more as per "New Twist on CALC" write up!!!

Give me some time and I will report back after doing this reading and trying it first hand.

Thank you guys :good:

[joecar]

Refer to post #29 in the Summary Notes as you read, it decodes/relates some of the concepts.

[FreshDA9]

Will do, just went through and made my Calc.VET PIDs and also have my filters set up. I noticed the maf pids were "X'd" out. I tried to click on them to see the other PIDs needed but the option was grayed out.

[joecar]

Pids other than CALC.xxx may have More Info greyed out.


To eliminate the red X's, do this:
- if you're disconnected from vehicle, then enter your VIN (File->Enter VIN) and select your controller (File->Select Contoller).
- if you're connected to vehicle, then validate pids (Info->Validate Pids).