TBSS 4L60e to 4L80e T42 Swap

[Mike@Vengeance]

Okay Guys I have done a few F-Bodies with some help and never had a issue. I am trying to run a 4L80e from RPM Trans in a 2007 TBSS. Engine runs fine having difficulty getting the trans set up to work correctly. I have a issue it seems no matter what I try.

Here is the stock file from the Truck if anybody has tune I can seg swap or something they can help me with on this that woudl be great.

I am running the adapter Harness from Transcentral.com that should convert everything signal wise.

Thanks guys14189

[joecar]

What happens...?

[Mike@Vengeance]

I need a seg swap or something apparently to make it work. To my knowledge there are no E67 combined with a T42 (4L80e programs) If I full flash a E38/T42 (4L80e) program into the T42 it does shift but it is not correct.

The car has U1000 type code and the shif indicator light stays in 1st. The truck also shows NO SPEED on the log. I am using the TransCentral conversion harness that RPM recomended but according to RPM Trans they have never done a 4L80e swap on a TBSS in house so there informantion on this is limited at best.

The T42 program I posted is just a 4L60e T42 program that I tried to just swap the 4L80e stuff into but no luck with that.

I have looked and it can be done. I looked around and there is a HP guy that does it for like $1000 with a crossmember which I think is crazy.

Thanks for all your help

[joecar]

The 4L60E segment can run the 4L80E if the trans harness is modified...

basically:
- discard the 3-2 control solenoid signal,
- use a relay to invert the 2-3 shift solenoid signal,
- drive TCC PWM from TCC On/Off or from TCC PWM thru a relay gated by TCC On/Off;

( those changes a simple )

If you swap in a 4L80E segment you still have to modify the trans harness (TCC PWM pin has to be moved).

more info:

showthread.php?13090-4l80e-4th-gear-and-tcc-problem (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?13090-4l80e-4th-gear-and-tcc-problem)
showthread.php?13449-06-gmc-truck-os-swap (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?13449-06-gmc-truck-os-swap)
showthread.php?13722-Stop-TCC-unlock-when-coasting (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?13722-Stop-TCC-unlock-when-coasting)
showthread.php?13891-4L80-E-3-2-shift-solenoid (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?13891-4L80-E-3-2-shift-solenoid)
showthread.php?13644-4L80E-swap-into-2006-6.0L-truck-with-4L60E (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?13644-4L80E-swap-into-2006-6.0L-truck-with-4L60E)

[joecar]

So, it may be simpler to run the 4L60E segment (this being compatible with your E67).

[Mike@Vengeance]

The tune I posted is a Modified 4L60e program. I am running the adapter Harness form TransCentral but I guess that may not be right for what I am trying to do. I'll do some more reasearch from the post you made.

Anymore ideas please let me know.

Thanks for all your help

[joecar]

The 4L60E segment can drive the 4L80E only if those modifications are made to the wire harness.

[turbo_bu]

Sort of a similar question to the OP about this kind of swap:

I know that for the LS1B family of PCM's, there is an issue with the 4L80E's unlocking the torque converter clutch when you take your foot off the gas. One of the fixes is to use the 4L60E OS and simply rewire the pins connecting the PCM to the transmission (along with a relay due to polarity on one of the solenoids). Thus you are really still using a 4L60 OS PCM to control the 4L80.

For vehicles that use the ECM / TCM combinations, the TCM (T42) is inside the transmission. My question is can you simply "rewire" a 4L60E T42 to control a 4L80E? I have not had one of these newer transmission apart to see how much space there is to work, but am curious to know if this is even possible ... Or if there is enough room to fit in the needed relay too.

Or, did GM "fix" the 4L80E issue so that is no longer unlocks the TCC when you take your foot off the gas?

[joecar]

The T42 is external to the transmission (it controls the 4L60E/65E/70E and the 4L80E/85E).


Anything other than the F-car and Y-car unlocks the TCC (for both the 4L60E/65E/70E and the 4L80E/85E).

[N0DIH]

I never looked at that on my 4L80E in my Suburban (99 K2500 454). Will check on that. I know my 94 Fleetwood LT1 with the RPO V4P (7000 lb tow package) has some different options checked for thie 4L60E (HD version, has lots of special stuff in it factory, I suspect most shift kits are based on this trans). And you can check on/off the TCC to unlock/lock on decel. I could force DFCO down to 800 rpm or so and having that option was key)

[ScarabEpic22]

Run the factory TCM OS for the TBSS and change the pins either on the TCM side of the trans side. If you want to keep the TCC locked under 0% TPS, only works if you have an 06-07 TBSS. 08-09s dont work, Ive been working on a fix for the 08s since March and am still fighting some issues.

[Mike@Vengeance]

The 4L60E segment can run the 4L80E if the trans harness is modified...

basically:
- discard the 3-2 control solenoid signal,
- use a relay to invert the 2-3 shift solenoid signal,
- drive TCC PWM from TCC On/Off or from TCC PWM thru a relay gated by TCC On/Off;

( those changes a simple )

If you swap in a 4L80E segment you still have to modify the trans harness (TCC PWM pin has to be moved).

more info:[/QUOTE]


Okay did the Relay and got everything else wired up. This is the program I am running. The truck still does not shift right but all the other issues are fixed. Does anybody else have any ideas. Apparently this swap is a pain from everything I have found but I know it can be done.

Thanks so much

[joecar]

Do you get any DTC's...?

Log the various TSTATExx pids, they may reveal some more context.

[joecar]

14224


Okay did the Relay and got everything else wired up. This is the program I am running. The truck still does not shift right but all the other issues are fixed. Does anybody else have any ideas. Apparently this swap is a pain from everything I have found but I know it can be done.

Thanks so muchAs a sanity check, explain in detail exactly what you did.



What happens when it tries to shift...?

[joecar]

From DVT in the scantool can you command the shift solenoids on and off...?

[ScarabEpic22]

Does it slam into gear when you shift from P -> D?

Does it hang past where it should be shifting (ex shifting at 30mph vs 25)?

Looking through that tune it appears everything is set correctly, but I havent personally done the swap so I might have missed something.

[Mike@Vengeance]

Wiring

Took Pin S out of botom of Trans Harness

Took the Wire out of PIN T and put it in PIN S

Went to TCM and Took 2-3 Noid and ran it to a relay so when the computer is commanding it OFF it is ON



After going back over the RELAY install I believe we have it working. It does shift 1-2-3-4. I have not been to able to fine tune it yet because of a small oil leak.

The only other issue I am have is the Traction Control/Stablitrac Light will flash on and off randomly and affect the truck. If I turn it off I can drive it but I probably only have about 1 mile on it.

I'll keep you guys updated and when I know everything is up and running good I will post the T42 tune to share with everybody and all the other info I have on the swap.

Thanks agian

[Mike@Vengeance]

Update #2

Okay I have had sometime to play with Trans Tune and it WORKS!!! Drives great and Locks up with no issues.

I still need to figure out a few minor details.

Thanks to Joecar and everybody who helped out with this one. Can not thank you enough.

[ScarabEpic22]

Glad you got it sorted out, just needs a little massaging once you get the basics done!

[joecar]

Cool :cheers: good job.

[Mike@Vengeance]

Guy same truck new issue. Okay 430++ CI with 15-16 PSI Procharger. This is running the 4L80e that we just figured out. The truck starts, runs , drives great but when I go WOT something is happening with the fuel.

If I go from a dead stop the AF goes to the roof and you can see it on the WB and the 02 Voltage hits the floor. In the log I stayed in it alittle longer for you guys to see.

Now if I go from a 20mph roll it will pin you back in the seat like a rocket. AWD is fun when its working right.

I had 96psi at 4 bar injectors I went to a 1000cc inj and set the fuel PSI at 3 bar and still no luck.

I have tried everything I can think of. Truck runs twin 340's in the tank. I verify both are working and I did a run to verify fuel PSI is good. Everything checks out.

Any IDEAS

Its obviously SD with a 3bar senson on a E67.

What can pull fuel like that from the inj??? I have all TQ setting maxed or turned off. Is there anything in the trans tune that can affect fuel like this???

Any Help would be great guys.

Thanks for all you do.

[Mike@Vengeance]

14262

Guy same truck new issue. Okay 430++ CI with 15-16 PSI Procharger. This is running the 4L80e that we just figured out. The truck starts, runs , drives great but when I go WOT something is happening with the fuel.

If I go from a dead stop the AF goes to the roof and you can see it on the WB and the 02 Voltage hits the floor. In the log I stayed in it alittle longer for you guys to see.

Now if I go from a 20mph roll it will pin you back in the seat like a rocket. AWD is fun when its working right.

I had 96psi at 4 bar injectors I went to a 1000cc inj and set the fuel PSI at 3 bar and still no luck.

I have tried everything I can think of. Truck runs twin 340's in the tank. I verify both are working and I did a run to verify fuel PSI is good. Everything checks out.

Any IDEAS

Its obviously SD with a 3bar senson on a E67.

What can pull fuel like that from the inj??? I have all TQ setting maxed or turned off. Is there anything in the trans tune that can affect fuel like this???

Any Help would be great guys.

Thanks for all you do.


Anybody ever seen this?

[joecar]

If the FPR is manifold referenced, remove the reference hose, if the hose has fuel in it then the FPR is bad.

[Mike@Vengeance]

If the FPR is manifold referenced, remove the reference hose, if the hose has fuel in it then the FPR is bad.



Going to test it today.

[Mike@Vengeance]

No luck atleast that I can see. I ran the truck and look into the hose after some mild stomping on it.

The FPR is after the rails. I did run a electric FP Gauge inside the car and the FP holds that the weird thing. Even if the FP is holding can it still do what the log shows???

I've swap injectors from 80 to 1000cc and no luck. FP looks good atleast from what I can see on the elec gauge coming out of the regulator.

It is very erratic. It is fine if I go from a 20mph roll just like the log but Dead stop the truck and no luck. Stabilitrac and TC are turned off. ALL TQ stuff in tune is MAXED out. ALL of it.

Can it be in the TANK. Both pumps are working I tested that as the truck will run with only 1 pump at idle if I pull the fuse on the other one.

Any more IDEAS. This one is weird.

Thanks

[Mike@Vengeance]

Okay went back out to log somemore.

Inj Pulse with on both banks is good, Fuel PSI is good or atleat the Guage says so, It looks like on the log BANK 1 O2 hit the floor first and followed by BANK 2.

Im at a total loss. What can do THIS???

[Mike@Vengeance]

Changed the Regulator and no luck???

[joecar]

I'm looking thru the log file, I'll report back later today.

[joecar]

What happens if you enable LTFT/trims...?

Can you log HO2S11 and HO2S21 (i.e. front sensor on each bank)

[ you can delete O2S11 and O2S21 (they did not log) ]

If you're running a MAF can you log that also.

[joecar]

Is the wideband O2 sensor working correctly...?

( with STFT's and/or LTFT's look at what WO2AFR1 and WO2LAM1 do, they should hover and/or oscillate around stoich or fairly close to it... I see a little of this, but not enough to convince me ).

[joecar]

MAF DTC indicates it's running from VVE.


Does IFR table match FPR (manifold-referenced or un-referenced)...?

[Mike@Vengeance]

Yes it is tuned SD. I tried all kinds of stuff. We even rewired the fuel pumps straight to the Bat. We thought the 2 340's might be pulling to many AMPS and messing with the fuel block.

Today I took the blower out of the equation and ran it NA. Even when I stomp it it goes to like 60% Throttle and then slowly goes up BUT the MV on the 02 show good.

The WB I was using is good I double checked it?

The IFR table maxes out at 7.99 or 64psi. Since I am running a 1000cc inj I had to modify the VVE table to get the AF close. I know there is another way to do this by messing with the B1213 and setting all Commanded to 14.63 as a base and then using Open Loop IJT, IVT and Load to get Commanded under boost correct. That is somehting I might try but its a complete rewrite from scratch on a tune that Starts, Idles and drive great.

ANY IDEAS please let me know. We are stumpped???

[joecar]

Yes it is tuned SD. I tried all kinds of stuff. We even rewired the fuel pumps straight to the Bat. We thought the 2 340's might be pulling to many AMPS and messing with the fuel block.

Today I took the blower out of the equation and ran it NA. Even when I stomp it it goes to like 60% Throttle and then slowly goes up BUT the MV on the 02 show good.

The WB I was using is good I double checked it?

The IFR table maxes out at 7.99 or 64psi. Since I am running a 1000cc inj I had to modify the VVE table to get the AF close. I know there is another way to do this by messing with the B1213 and setting all Commanded to 14.63 as a base and then using Open Loop IJT, IVT and Load to get Commanded under boost correct. That is somehting I might try but its a complete rewrite from scratch on a tune that Starts, Idles and drive great.

ANY IDEAS please let me know. We are stumpped???If the IFR is maxed out, then the IFR/VVE have to be scaled.

[ScarabEpic22]

How much did you scale it? Im about to scale my 08 TBSS tune 50% to run ID850s, Im betting you know this already but its not just scaling the spark and VVE tables. Lots of other tables are referenced off of airflow and all of these need to be scaled as well.

[joecar]

Erik is correct, any table that references airmass (g) or airflow (g/s).

[Mike@Vengeance]

Okay guys I pulled the SC pipe off so I could just run it NA.

Same basic issue. I redid the tune AGAIN from scratch and I have been through every single table to try and figure this one out.

Here is a log and here is the tune. I understand the tune is not complete. It was just a rough in to try and get past the issue.

Let me know what you guys think.

The TP on one of the logs comes up very slow. Now my foot is to the floor but the log shows 50-60%

Then the next log it goes WOT and then all of sudden drop to 60% and then goes back up to 100???

[joecar]

I'll take a look tomorrow, I ran out of time today.

[Mike@Vengeance]

Thanks man

[Mike@Vengeance]

Switched TB for the hell of it and no luck.

[Mike@Vengeance]

I've logged the hell out of it and tried everything I can think of.

In post #21 that is what it does on boost no matter what I do or have done.

[joecar]

I'm still looking thru your files...

[joecar]

Cylinder airmass seems to peg out at 3.67 g/cyl, but this is too high, I can't see this engine pulling in that much air...

hmmm, this is puzzling...

( the attached pic shows both the E38 (red) and E67 (green) APCYL )

[joecar]

You do have a manifold referenced FPR, right...?

[joecar]

Hmmm, at WOT the ACYL drops from 3.67g to 2.96g...

this tells me that the cylinder air model (i.e. VVE) is not right for WOT...

engine torque being calculated low supports this (to me it seems too low even when considering scaling for IFR limitation).


I also see MAP dropping by 7 kPa as throttle opens (altho I don't see the ETCTP pid logged).

[joecar]

In the FAIL 4 log file, I see at WOT that TP dips momentarily, is this intentional...?

[Mike@Vengeance]

In the FAIL 4 log file, I see at WOT that TP dips momentarily, is this intentional...?

No its not intentional. I put my foot the floor and hold it.

[Mike@Vengeance]

Cylinder airmass seems to peg out at 3.67 g/cyl, but this is too high, I can't see this engine pulling in that much air...

hmmm, this is puzzling...

( the attached pic shows both the E38 (red) and E67 (green) APCYL )

I think the MAP drop because it is still pulling through the SC duct work when running NA?

[joecar]

I think the MAP drop because it is still pulling through the SC duct work when running NA?Yes, that could be the reason.

[Mike@Vengeance]

Forget the NA pulls but look at the boost pulls in the WOT at 0 and 20mph LOG.

The WB is good as I have tuned atleast 5 cars since messing with this one with the same WB.

[Mike@Vengeance]

What if I remove the T42 Controler and run a stand alone computer to run the 4L80e.

Do you think it is in the T42 or the E67

[joecar]

I think it's in the E67.

[Mike@Vengeance]

From a 20mph kick the truck will break your neck

Dead Stop the TB closes to 50% or so and I loose a whole bank of fuel

[ScarabEpic22]

Why do you have the VATS disable patch applied? Its in a stock truck...Id start with reverting it back to the Not Applied state and full flash the tune.

Are you using ID1000s? If so, why aren't you using their supplied injector data? Your IFR shouldnt be maxxed out, scale it using the ID1000 spreadsheet. You're going to have to scale the tune more than 50% using 1000cc injectors, even scaled 50% the high kPa values are over 7.9999. 40% looks like it might work, but that makes interpolation a lot trickier. 25% should work, but you might lose too much resolution in the spark tables.

Look at the WOT Stop and 20mph roll.efi file, you get 4* of knock on tip in and a max of 7* plus your WBO2 goes to a wacky reading (not sure why). But on the TBSS Fail 2013 2.efi you dont get any, nice.

So to recap, this is a 07 TBSS body with a 430ci LS3 and a Procharger. Are you using the 2 Bar VVE or 3 Bar VVE? Looks like a 180* tstat. What throttle body are you running? Stock TrailBlazer/truck? Gold blade LS3/7? Silver blade LS2/3/7? The throttle is closing under these off the line WOT runs, with some blowers they can actually push the blade closed.

I highly doubt this is an 80E related problem, there are tons of guys running the stock E67 OS and either the stock TCM OS modded like you have or with a custom 80E T42 OS.

[Mike@Vengeance]

Why do you have the VATS disable patch applied? Its in a stock truck...Id start with reverting it back to the Not Applied state and full flash the tune.

Are you using ID1000s? If so, why aren't you using their supplied injector data? Your IFR shouldnt be maxxed out, scale it using the ID1000 spreadsheet. You're going to have to scale the tune more than 50% using 1000cc injectors, even scaled 50% the high kPa values are over 7.9999. 40% looks like it might work, but that makes interpolation a lot trickier. 25% should work, but you might lose too much resolution in the spark tables.

Look at the WOT Stop and 20mph roll.efi file, you get 4* of knock on tip in and a max of 7* plus your WBO2 goes to a wacky reading (not sure why). But on the TBSS Fail 2013 2.efi you dont get any, nice.

So to recap, this is a 07 TBSS body with a 430ci LS3 and a Procharger. Are you using the 2 Bar VVE or 3 Bar VVE? Looks like a 180* tstat. What throttle body are you running? Stock TrailBlazer/truck? Gold blade LS3/7? Silver blade LS2/3/7? The throttle is closing under these off the line WOT runs, with some blowers they can actually push the blade closed.

I highly doubt this is an 80E related problem, there are tons of guys running the stock E67 OS and either the stock TCM OS modded like you have or with a custom 80E T42 OS.

Yeah I also highly doubt its a T42 issue. The car is using a 3bar sensor with a 90mm TB. I have tried switching TBs back to stock with no luck and injector also 850 to 1000.

I can redo the tune with a different IFR scale tomorrow that should not take long the rest of the data should be good. I can then rescale the VVE table. I'll take out the VATS patch when I am doing that.

I have had so many different tunes in this thing and tried so much different stuff.

Truck starts and runs fine. Shift good also but I can not get BANK 1 to hold a good clean AF from a hit.

[Mike@Vengeance]

And yes 430 15 PSI procharger

twin intank 340's

Holds FP and both pumps are working.

[joecar]

Try swapping the O2S left/right.

[ScarabEpic22]

Yeah I also highly doubt its a T42 issue. The car is using a 3bar sensor with a 90mm TB. I have tried switching TBs back to stock with no luck and injector also 850 to 1000.

I can redo the tune with a different IFR scale tomorrow that should not take long the rest of the data should be good. I can then rescale the VVE table. I'll take out the VATS patch when I am doing that.

I have had so many different tunes in this thing and tried so much different stuff.

Truck starts and runs fine. Shift good also but I can not get BANK 1 to hold a good clean AF from a hit.

I know what you mean, troubleshooting mode = throw the kitchen sick at it trying to figure out whats wrong.


And yes 430 15 PSI procharger

twin intank 340's

Holds FP and both pumps are working.

:D Nice setup, Im going to go a little tamer for mine.


Try swapping the O2S left/right.

Good idea, might show if its an O2 or actually the bank is getting starved.

[Mike@Vengeance]

Okay I took the blower belt off. Ran a bunch a more test. The car still loses Fuel on Bank 1 then followed by bank 2 on the blower.

I took the belt off and ran the same the test. ALL go I can go from a dead stop and roll with no issues.

This leads me to beleive its in the Fuel System but I have already put a Fuel PSI gauge on it and ran it WOT under boost and its fine.

Can I lose Fuel on 1 bank and still have Fuel PSI at the Regulator. The Regulator is after the RAIL?

I am running twin 340's from Lonnies Performance with a RSI harness?

[ScarabEpic22]

So to clarify, without the blower hooked up, from a STOP it runs just fine? As in no dropping the Bank 1/2 fueling?

Sounds like if this is the case, you simply arent getting enough fuel to the engine. What size are your feed lines TO the fuel rails?

[joecar]

Swap the injectors left/right across banks.

[Mike@Vengeance]

So to clarify, without the blower hooked up, from a STOP it runs just fine? As in no dropping the Bank 1/2 fueling?

Sounds like if this is the case, you simply arent getting enough fuel to the engine. What size are your feed lines TO the fuel rails?

Thats what we figured but the Fuel Pressure never drops???

Can I lose fuel in the rail you think and keep fuel Pressure?

[Mike@Vengeance]

Swap the injectors left/right across banks.

I try that.

Goona run some more NA test before I put the belt back on.

[ScarabEpic22]

Thats what we figured but the Fuel Pressure never drops???

Can I lose fuel in the rail you think and keep fuel Pressure?

Honestly at this point it sounds like you've done all of the normal diagnostics and then some, IDK what else to say.

[Mike@Vengeance]

Honestly at this point it sounds like you've done all of the normal diagnostics and then some, IDK what else to say.

Pulling the tank and I'm going to flow each pump individually and together on a bench.

Then I am going to run the same test in the car at the rails.

I'll let you guys no.

[Mike@Vengeance]

Forgot to mention I pull the Boost Regulator vac hose and it will spin all 4 tires now before running out of fuel from the HIT.

Regaurdless of what the gauge says at the rail I am out of fuel.

[ScarabEpic22]

Forgot to mention I pull the Boost Regulator vac hose and it will spin all 4 tires now before running out of fuel from the HIT.

Regaurdless of what the gauge says at the rail I am out of fuel.

Ah so you are losing fuel in boost...interesting.