tuning idle

[BACKinBLACK]

Ok guys i need some help tuning the idle. Ive read the stickies and followed some directions from another write up... i believe it was off of ls1sounds.com anyways heres what i got.

2000 SS M6, Futral F14 112+4 , Fast 90/ NW 90, headers, etc etc.

The car is untuned other then playing with the idle a little bit because i have not installed my LC-1 yet. The car idles OK after it has been started up for a few minutes. At first i have to feather the throttle to keep it alive but after a minute or so it idles pretty good. When i am driving as long as i put it in neautral and cost for a minute before coming to a complete stop then it was take the transition well but if i have to stop suddenly it has trouble catching itself and will usually die. Also if it was has been running it will idle well after a while of running but if i turn it off and start it right back up its like it wont remember how to idle and will have to relearn itself. It idles much better after i did the following then it did when i first started her up but i dont know where to go from here.

heres what i have done so far.

this is the tutorial that i have followed so far http://ls1sounds.com/temp/ls1tuninginfo.doc

I have subtracted 20% off of the cranking VE table to reduce it, i have opened the throttle body and reset the tps sensor. It is right at about 0.5-0.6V so i dont think that i can go any further and get the TPS sensor to reset. From my understanding if the TPS voltage goes past .6 then it wont reset, is that correct? Right now at idle the TPS voltage will sometimes go to .8 without anyone touching the idle so then it shows Throttle position at 1%, i dont know why it goes up and down like it does, should i back off the idle adjustment scew a little bit?
I also took 4 counts off of the VE tables from 1200 rpm's down like it stated in the tutorial that i was following.

My IAC counts are somewhere btwn 85-100 at warm idle. Since i assume that i cant open tb blade anymore with the throttle stop screw due to TPS voltage, do i now need to drill the Throttle body whole bigger?

The tutorial also stated "Go to all your spark tables and set the park and drive idle values to about 22 degrees." but i did not know what tables to change.

Sorry for the long post guys, but im a newbie, still trying to learn. I have read all the stickies but they confuse me on what to change and where. So i would appreciate all the help i can get. I will post my current tune file when i get home if i can figure out how. Thanks in advavnce for all the help

Trevor

[eboggs_jkvl]

I'm sure the folks on here can help you. I did notice one thing on that tuning link. It said LTFTs should be +5 to -5. Well the explanation of that is good BUT any positive LTFT will splash fuel into your WOT condition and drive you totally bonkers trying to tune for WOT. In my VERY limited experience, I've found that the LTFTs should be negative as you go WOT. When they are negative, the PCM says to itself..

Self, it's running rich so there's no need to splash fuel in on the PE (WOT) mode so just use the PE table.

There are other things that splash in fuel but I learned about the LTFTs after MANY hours of hair pulling on the dyno.

As far as your idle, good luck. I've been chasing that darn idle problem for quite a while now.

Elmer

[ringram]

Here are some thoughts which may or may not help.

How about raising your Desired Airflow some more, your IAC will climb more, but you still wont have to drill.

IAC max is like 365 steps anyway. So while stock IAC at warm idle is around 30 who cares if you need 150 or 180 as long as you have enough steps left to control cracker and follower functions.

Have you done much with your Desired Airflow table so far?

[BACKinBLACK]

i have done no other tuning then the VE table. I thought about changing my desired airflow but again i have no idea which one to change and to what.

All i have dared tune was my cooling fan temps, delete some codes, reset my TPS and change my VE tables....very limited as i dont know what else to change or what to change it too. If you could walk me through the steps and give me a idea of what area to change it to ill give it a shot. Thanks,
Trevor

[ringram]

Ah ok, cool.
Best idea is to do a search on here for "idle transition tuning" in fact I think its a sticky.
You basically create a map and from memory a calc pid to sum RAFIG which is adjustment to idle airflow you then add the map to your Desired Air table which helps get your idle under control.

You might also want to use bidirectional controls once thats done to play with timing to see if that helps more, you might want more timing at idle in your base table etc.

Lots of info in the idle transition sticky. Just found it here http://efiforum.iqd.co.nz/showthread.php?t=149

[BACKinBLACK]

thanks for your help mane, i appreciate it, but all that stuff confuses me. I know of everything that you are talking about, but plugging it all in to EFIlive and making tables and choosing which table to modify is where i get lost. Im used to working on carbureted engines so the terms just kinda throws me off.

Ive read that sticky that you speak of and it was great info but figuring out how to do it on efilive is what loses me. Thanks

[Doc]

I want to say the following in the most seriously compassoniate way because if a certain vendor had delievered all of my parts like he said he was going to on Friday I would be asking the same questions you are about idle as I should be tuning right now instead of not knowing when my 228/228 .588 114 and LS6 intake are going to get here at this point. My LS6 ported heads showed up on thurs. Now I have a car on jackstands with half of the motor taken apart...But back to the subject, you said you were waiting to install the LC-1?!? Why brother? You also said you have been VE tuning without the LC-1? Get that LC-1 installed. If you need help with that I'd be more than happy to do that as I have successfully done that. Really I feel your pain. Take care.

[TAQuickness]

Idle tuning is a delicate process and not for the impatient. Much of what you find on the internet is hocus pocus. The idle transition thread in this forum is your best bet at the moment. As far as locating the tables, what in particular are you looking for?

[BACKinBLACK]

well at the moment i am just trying to find out what tables i need to change for idle tuning and what i need to change them to.
oh yeah and which table and what RPM's do i need to change the timing on for idle? What timing should i be at at idle?

Will the autotune feature tune the idle as well?

[ringram]

Autotune, will sort out your VE table primarily not necessarily idle.
You might want to do idle first.

A lot of the questions you have dont carry and definate answers.
A good way is to backup your current tune, do some minor changes to bidirectional controls for spark, fuel etc and see what your engine likes.
You can then make them permanent.

Do lots of logging first, understand what each sensor is telling you and what each table does. You will soon pick up what each is for and have an idea of which way you should tweak it.

I just posted a beginners guide draft in the tutorials section, you might want to take a read of that and see if it helps make things a little easier to understand.

[BACKinBLACK]

cool ill check that out now. what pids do i always want to log? also how do i read injector duty cycle, what pid? When im logging my maf, spark, injector duty cycle, long term fuel trim and fuel status gauges never read anything ive tried different pids but i guess i never got the right ones, so which ones will clear that up? thanks for all your help.

[ringram]

Default pid selection should cover most of your questions.
Have you tried it? Look at all of the scan tool tabs and display buttons, there is a good selection of default stuff

[BACKinBLACK]

yeah i tried that first and most of them werent working, so i made my own default list yesterday and if i remember correctly i got all to work except for the injector duty cycle, thats all im missing at the moment i believe.

is it worth it to autotune using LTFT to get me by until i get my wideband installed? Ive read that you can but i dont remember where the directions were, ill search for it.

[TAQuickness]

Unless you just want the practice, I would hold off until you get the WB

[joecar]

To get the injector duty cycle pids (CALC.INJDC1 or CALC.INJDC2) to work, you have to select the injector base pulse width pids (GM.IBPW1 or GM.IBPW2) and the rpm pid (SAE.RPM).

On the PID's tab, highlight INJDC1 and do right click->More Info to see what's required.

[BACKinBLACK]

lol thanks Joecar i just figured that out right before you posted that. I appreciate all your help guys. Hopefully ill get my wideband installed soon b/c my car feels pretty good other then idle but its not really any faster that i can tell. I sure hope that a good tune will make a world of a difference.

[SSbaby]

The way I tend to look at tuning VEs for cammed LS1s is basically follow the power curve of the new cam vs old (stock LS1) on an overlayed graph.

Generally, the power curve of the stock LS1 cam comes on earlier than the aftermarket cam (which is usually more aggressive). The two curves meet at roughly a 1600-2000rpm intercept (overlayed graph) and it is below this point where VEs of the aftermarket cam should be less than that of the stock cam, if it is to idle correctly.

Generally, the stock VE table is too rich at around idle (i.e. < 1600rpm) for aftermarket cams which leads to stalling, surging and general driveability issues.

[BACKinBLACK]

ok guys when i go to start the car, if i dont give it gas it will start right up but then imediately die. I have to start it up and feather the gas to get it to stay running, i have to play with the gas for at least 20 seconds or so to get it to be able to idle by itself, what table do i need to look at for that

b4343 possibly? what should i do to it if so

or could this be helped by the iac park position

[SSbaby]

ok guys when i go to start the car, if i dont give it gas it will start right up but then imediately die. I have to start it up and feather the gas to get it to stay running, i have to play with the gas for at least 20 seconds or so to get it to be able to idle by itself, what table do i need to look at for that

b4343 possibly? what should i do to it if so

or could this be helped by the iac park position

Are you running Closed or Open Loop?

If running closed loop, you need to recalibrate your VEs {B0101}:

In the VE table, try subtracting:
20% from your 0-400 rpm row.
15% from your 0-800 rpm row.
10% from your 0-1200 rpm row.

See how you go after firing up on cold startup. If it still stalls after driving off then you might need to increase your IAC settings. Drilling a hole in the TB might help.

[eboggs_jkvl]

Before you drill, Turn the set screw on the TB about 3/4 of a turn. Disconnect the TPS, turn on the key for 5 seconds (don't start) turn off the key, connect the TPS and give it a try.

This will give you the increased air and NOT put a hole in the TB that you can't claim a "mulligan" and go back and fix.

E:)

[oztracktuning]

I had a breakthrough today that has improved my idle 100%.
Maybe i was stupid before - but what i did was make sure the cause and effect of AFR was lined up properly.

The usually awesome logging maps - done in idle mode in the 400-800 cells at around 50 MAP dont display the real picture accurately it seems due to the lag of exhaust gas from what the injector does. It had tricked me into having too rich a cell at 55, 56 and too lean at 45-50 when the car idles on average at around 50. What i have done is look for peaks and troughs and then go backwards frame by frame looking for the corresponding event identified by pulse width peaks and lows.

I then adjusted the corresponding VE cell and it has made my idle AFRS heaps better.

[BACKinBLACK]

Are you running Closed or Open Loop?

If running closed loop, you need to recalibrate your VEs {B0101}:

In the VE table, try subtracting:
20% from your 0-400 rpm row.
15% from your 0-800 rpm row.
10% from your 0-1200 rpm row.

See how you go after firing up on cold startup. If it still stalls after driving off then you might need to increase your IAC settings. Drilling a hole in the TB might help.

I have already trimmed the ve table but i took off 20% from 0-1200. I guess that i will try adding back 5 in the 800 and 10 in the 1200 range and see what that does for me.

actually now that im looking at my tables it was the ve while cranking table that i modified by 20% so now i changed my main ve so we will see what that does for me today.

also i have already opened my throttle body via the throttle stop screw. Currently my tps voltage is between .5-.6 so i cannot open it up anymore and be able to reset my tps correct.?

[oztracktuning]

Use the pulse width identification method and it wil be more accurate than the scaling method.

[SSbaby]

I have already trimmed the ve table but i took off 20% from 0-1200. I guess that i will try adding back 5 in the 800 and 10 in the 1200 range and see what that does for me.

Yeah that might be too radical. You are essentially exiting a potentially lean condition and perhaps entering an overly rich condition. That could lead to driveability issues especially at idle. Try to limit these kinds of 'steps' in your VE curve (i.e. smoothen it where you can).

I haven't tried the 'pulse width' approach? :nixweiss:

[BACKinBLACK]

yeah i was mistaken when i typed that, i took 20% off the cranking VE table. I looked at my main and backup VE tables and i didnt take anything off of them, so i used to stated values...

20 % 400rpm
15 % 800rpm
10% 1200rpm

im gonna go load this onto the car today and see what happens. I also added some timing to the base timing table to see what would happen at idle. Guess we will find out.

[VetPet]

I'd like to add just a word of caution here. Steps are best taken one at a time and then evaluate your results. Change your VE table values and see how the car starts and idles first. Adding more timing at idle can certainly help but avoid adding more than you really need or you will start getting other driveability problems. Making just one change at a time will make it easier for you to identify which change made the difference and help you with future changes.

Just my 2cents for what it's worth. Good luck with your tuning and keep us posted. We all can learn something.

:cheers:

[oztracktuning]

I am not sure if people understood the method i was talking about.

The aim is for steady afrs - this will make idle better.
This is in open loop.

Look for a peak eg 15.1 and then trace backward to a smaller than the rest pulse. It might be back 0.6 or so of a second. This is the rpm and map that caused the lean spot.

Then look for a low eg 13.8 - then look backward for a higher pulse width peak - this will give the corresponding rpm and map for the rich spot.

Working in this way should smooth out idle afrs and idle rpm steadiness will improve.

As for the 400 , 800 and 1200 cells
here are my latest numbers in g/cylinder if this helps anyone.

35 MAP 40MAP 45MAP 50MAP 55MAP 60MAP
400rpm 3.540220 3.618923 3.779064 3.939558 4.466479 5.922836
800rpm 7.105144 8.065108 10.289789 10.704303 12.159072 16.055396
1200rpm 12.621760 14.060647 16.871188 19.590145 22.588620 26.131840

[joecar]

Can you post some pictures with scribble showing what you mean....?

...I've had 3 Mondays in the last 72 hours...
I'm unable to abosrb text anymore...:Eyecrazy::Eyecrazy::Eyecrazy::Eyecrazy:

[BACKinBLACK]

ok guys i added the new changes to the ve and a lil timing and it seems to be idling quite a bit better now and idles sooner by itself so that is good. now my next question

My injector duty cycle got up to 101%, obviously i need new injectors but in the meantime will this get better or worse when the car gets tuned...

I am planning on going with SVO 30lb i guess, ill see if i can find a good deal, does anyone have any other brands/recommendations?

When i get my new injectors will my pump be able to handle the new injectors + 150 wet shot?

[oztracktuning]

Here is an image of a log with labels.

Not sure the principles are all correct -
but the method works well for idle - at least with my car.

Steve

[oztracktuning]

Have made my idle heaps better in the last few days
750rpm in gear, 675rpm in neutral
29-30 deg timing in gear
24 in park
AFRs using Custom Operating system - giving quality idle at just under 14.0. Leaner than that it starts roughening up.

Timing in Hioctane table at 800rpm is 1 deg higher than Base Spark.

Turning and stalling, reversing etc all good
No hunting at all, nice parking up hill.
It feels more torquey when moving very slowly.

Idling down below 45map with my cam. Its made a difference. Maybe the best idea is to change timing to get lowest possible map value - common knowledge to many im sure.

[BACKinBLACK]

im still working on mine but then again i still havent installed my wb. I have gotten it much better now though. Now whenever i start it up i dont have to pedal it to keep it alive i just turn the key and let it do its thing. It will hunt for an idle for about 30 seconds but it will find itself. Before i had to give it some gas to even keep it alive. My main troubles come when im driving and have to stop suddenly, thats when it does not want to stay running. Also if im in reverse or just slipping the clutch out then applying the clutch again it just wants to die on me.

[TAQuickness]

im still working on mine but then again i still havent installed my wb. I have gotten it much better now though. Now whenever i start it up i dont have to pedal it to keep it alive i just turn the key and let it do its thing. It will hunt for an idle for about 30 seconds but it will find itself. Before i had to give it some gas to even keep it alive. My main troubles come when im driving and have to stop suddenly, thats when it does not want to stay running. Also if im in reverse or just slipping the clutch out then applying the clutch again it just wants to die on me.

Sounds like you may need a little more in your B4307, or possibly use the BIDI to determin the ideal spark.

[BACKinBLACK]

hmm aight, should i add 10% to the entire table or do individual cell in B4307?

[TAQuickness]

hmm aight, should i add 10% to the entire table or do individual cell in B4307?


Use the scan tool to log RAFIG or the STIT.

[BACKinBLACK]

still pretty new to all this, what pids will i monitor for the RAFIG. also did you mean STFT instead of STIT?

i know what short term fuel trim is but what is STIT?

[oztracktuning]

Give it more than enough RAF and my timing is near 30 deg - try this and see what happens. But its better rich as well.

[TAQuickness]

RAGIG is the sum of the Long Term Idle Trim (LTIT) and Short Term Idle Trim (STIT). If you select the RAFIG with out the supporting LTIT & STIT, it will show as invalid. Right click the RAFIG and select more info for the exact idle trim PID names ;)

[BACKinBLACK]

ok i cannot find the RAFIG calc pid to select, i have selected the iac- long term correction, in gear, ac off, and the iac short term correction, in gear, ac off pids but i must be blind or something b/c that is all that i see that has in gear etc etc. I have been looking for about 15 minutes trying to find the RAFIG calc pid but it just isnt happening for me.

i downloaded the program in december so is it possible it was an update since then or am i just not seeing it?

edit... just did some searching and found out i needed to download a newer version

[joecar]

ok i cannot find the RAFIG calc pid to select, i have selected the iac- long term correction, in gear, ac off, and the iac short term correction, in gear, ac off pids but i must be blind or something b/c that is all that i see that has in gear etc etc. I have been looking for about 15 minutes trying to find the RAFIG calc pid but it just isnt happening for me. LoL same thing happened to me. :notacrook:

[oztracktuning]

My values are a bit higher than RAFIG anyway. I found it better higher.

[BACKinBLACK]

now i have to figure out how to setup the map

[BACKinBLACK]

ok i scanned the Rafig but unfortunately i didnt get a good scan from dead cold until warm so this is what i got...

i just got 80* C,

it is at 1.59 grams/second

so do i add that to the corrsponding row/column in my B4307 or what?

[oztracktuning]

I would add 2.1 at 80 C and see how that works. (0.5 extra) in the in gear column. Try the same numbers at all temps above 80 while you are at it.

[BACKinBLACK]

ok thanks, i will try that either today or tomorrow

[BACKinBLACK]

is it normal for one bank's ltft's to be at least 3-4% higher on average? Also the injector duty cycles are off by around 3% or so!?!?!?

[ringram]

Yep, banks are usually 2% or so out.
God knows why. I ended up running open loop. Now they are the same :)

[SSpdDmon]

Yep, banks are usually 2% or so out.
God knows why. I ended up running open loop. Now they are the same :)

I wonder if it has to do with the intake manifold. If air flows slightly easier to the driver's side of the motor than it does to the passenger side, the driver's side will need a little more fuel to account for the extra airflow. Just my theory...

[joecar]

I wonder if it has to do with the intake manifold. If air flows slightly easier to the driver's side of the motor than it does to the passenger side, the driver's side will need a little more fuel to account for the extra airflow. Just my theory...Hmmm... so mismatched injectors would be handy here.

[BACKinBLACK]

yeah i thought about that... the fast 90 is a sweet piece though. I bought some brand new SVO 30lbers so they are going in this week sometime. i need to hurry up and get my cats cut off so i can install my wideband and auto ve so then i can get it dyno tuned... so frustrating to have to little time :Eyecrazy:

[joecar]

frustrating to have to little time I do my car work after midnight, everyone else is sleeping no interruptions,
drink lots of Red Bull the next day and wear really dark sunnies. :banana::cucumber::cucumber::cucumber:

[BACKinBLACK]

lmao yup thats what i did during my cam install and intake and all that. Im a technician so it takes a lot of inspiration to make me want to wrench on my own stuff when i get off of work and between college. I have so many projects right now that need to get done....
2 trucks
the SS
2 4wheelers
2 dirtbikes
1 tractor

lol 5 out of the 7 are taken apart in my shop waiting for attention :Eyecrazy: ...... must have rest