Low Performance 6.7

[WetMtnCrd]

Have one that won't fuel. I only get 94mm3 at full throttle. It goes to that value fairly early (at 100% TP) and just stays there. The only changes made to the stock tune so far are to eliminate the post injection and smooth out and add a little timing to the main+adjust timing tables. Nothing permanent but just enough to get started. The quantity tables go up to 150mm3 so I thought I should get more than 94mm3.
Here's some notes from one of my logs on what it's doing: (I have a bunch of logs and didn't want to go back through them all to find which one had this on it. We have a lot of snow up here now so not easy to go out and get a new one.)
TP 100%
RPM 2800
MAP 37psi
FPA 22670 psi
DC 45.7%
Pilot PW 252.6us
Main PW 1113.0us
CMD Fuel 94.9
Load 73%
No post injection.

If I need to get other parameters just let me know what PIDs are needed and I will try to another log sometime soon when the roads clear up.

Also I have some smoke on the low end I would like to clean up. Below 40% TP and under 1800 RPM. Should this be done with PW, FPA, or mm3?

Thanks.

[2007 5.9]

Shoot me the file and ill scope it out and see if you are missing something.

[WetMtnCrd]

Ok. I'll have to look through some of these to see which one it is. Do want the tune too?

[2007 5.9]

Yes a log and tunefile.

[WetMtnCrd]

Sent you an email with the files attached.

[2007 5.9]

Got it, ill check it tonight when I get home.

[WetMtnCrd]

Thought I might try a reflash. Went to 2 dealers and 1 Cummins service center. Well guess what?! They couldn't do it. Apparently Witech needs to see a TIPM before it will reflash the ECM. So that's not going to happen. i don't have a TIPM installed and I'd guess most conversions don't. So now I'm back to trying to figure out what's limiting my mm3. It's a shame Smarty could do this with very few sensors installed and EFI,in all their glory, can't. But really it's more an issue of this finiky POS ecm. I'm really not even sure a reflash would fix this anyway. The last dealer I was at thought that even if we installed the ecm in a truck with the TIPM that once back on my truck without one it might not run. I beleive that to be true do to the truck tunes I tried and every one would start then die. Maybe looking for something that wasn't there. I really don't know why they didn't work but they didn't. Only the C&C file I got from Tobin would start and stay running. And that's what I'm using now. But can't get it to fuel above 94mm3.

[cumminsDK]

Does the ECM have a speed sensor signal? I've had trouble with 5.9 ecms in standalone applications that without speed signal wouldn't sense load therefore not fueling. Had to tune around it. The parameters you posted only showed 73% load.

[WetMtnCrd]

No. It does not have VSS. Difficult to get that on the CAN buss from the Ford system. Yes, I saw that the load was not up where it should be either. As well as the fuel. So how do I tune around this? As I've said before (and I'm not being disrespectfull to EFI) other tuners are able to get around this why not this one. I like the versatility EFI has with other parameters.

[cumminsDK]

It can be gotten around with efilive as well if that is indeed your issue. Smarty UDC is load based and has a table that defines fueling based on load. Max it out across the board as iirc smarty does and you may lose driveability but you won't be limited in fueling by load. Now what I have done on 5.9s is determine max mm3 say 94 then I will set my pulse for 90 and above for the desired result in fuel quantity. So if at 150mm3 you are at 2300 microseconds set your pulse table for 2300 microseconds at 90mm3 and up.

[WetMtnCrd]

Thanks. I'll take a look at this and give it a try. I don't remember seeing a load based table in EFI though. I'll look again but the pw stuff may do the trick.

[cumminsDK]

A load based table is not accessible with efilive yet. Also note that with the pw truck max mm3 will still be 94 but you should see a higher pulse and more fuel

[WetMtnCrd]

How ya getting more fuel if the ecm is limiting quantity? PW just spreads the commanded volume over a longer or shorter period of time with pressure adjustment. At least that's how I've understood it. But then I've discovered things about this ecm that I don't really understand too.

[skneeland]

How ya getting more fuel if the ecm is limiting quantity? PW just spreads the commanded volume over a longer or shorter period of time with pressure adjustment. At least that's how I've understood it. But then I've discovered things about this ecm that I don't really understand too.

no

commanded volume is just a reference number. you can adjust how much fuel you are actually feeding the engine by changing your PW and/or your fuel pressure. even though you are maxxing out at 94mm3, you can still force as much fueling as you need by remapping your PW table to take into consideration that 94 is "max" and scale down from there. you will likely lose slight driveability.

[Robs24vCTD]

Thought of trying to find a truck ECM?

[WetMtnCrd]

Thought of trying to find a truck ECM?

Still wouldn't fuel fully. I don't have VSS to the ecm. That's really the biggest issue right now.

[skneeland]

what about using an 06/07 ecm for a 5.9? i see you arent using the stock VGT anyway

[WetMtnCrd]

no

commanded volume is just a reference number. you can adjust how much fuel you are actually feeding the engine by changing your PW and/or your fuel pressure. even though you are maxxing out at 94mm3, you can still force as much fueling as you need by remapping your PW table to take into consideration that 94 is "max" and scale down from there. you will likely lose slight driveability.

Ok. I've been able to make some progress with pw changes. But I have not have any luck getting the fuel pressure up. I've adjusted the pressure table, the duty cycle table, and the FCAC table and none of them have made any difference in commanded or actual fuel pressure. How do you get the fuel pressure up?

[WetMtnCrd]

Also now that I have gotten the pw's up I have developed quite a fuel pressure oscillation. Not during cruise as some have had but under moderate acceleration. Anyone seen this before?

[KhakiCummins]

Have you adjusted the limiter tables?

[ScarabEpic22]

What Duane said.

Post the tune that you're currently using and Id be happy to look through it for you.

[WetMtnCrd]

Have you adjusted the limiter tables?

Which ones? Basically I have anything that can be disabled -- disabled. So all that stuff should be disabled. I had to do that just to get it to run without a VGT and all the other sensors and modules that a OEM Dodge truck has that my Fumins doesn't have. And that's been somewhat of challenge in itself.

[WetMtnCrd]

What Duane said.

Post the tune that you're currently using and Id be happy to look through it for you.

14829

I think I got it attached. Here's the file I'm using. Good luck. It doesn't fuel above 94 mm3 either.

[ScarabEpic22]

Ill look at it in the morning with fresh eyes, do you happen to have a log of it not fueling past 94mm3?

And you just do not have a VSS feed into the ECM correct? All other sensors except VGT and VATS/security are there?

What are your goals with this, how many RPMs do you want/can you run? Mods on the motor?

[KhakiCummins]

Which ones? Basically I have anything that can be disabled -- disabled. So all that stuff should be disabled. I had to do that just to get it to run without a VGT and all the other sensors and modules that a OEM Dodge truck has that my Fumins doesn't have. And that's been somewhat of challenge in itself.

The tables that I'm talking about are under the "Injection Quantity" folder. You will see about 7 or 8 sub folders in there. One of them will be "Limiters".

I'll take a look at the tune this evening as well. Eric has a lot more experience with this than I do though so I'm sure he'll figure it out...

[anarchydiesel]

14830disabled the other limiters for you. A data log of your truck driving would definately help get it running right.

[2007 5.9]

I've adjusted everything I could think of...and still it hits a mm3 limiter.

Increased duration below 90mm3 and got it to run ok...but still SLAMS a mm3 limiter ~90mm3

[anarchydiesel]

Les, I would say that it is the load based limiter that is killing it. We have a fummins w/6.7 that should be running in the next couple of days and I imagine I will be fighting the same thing. When Zach and I were tag teaming Richard Madsen's truck it reacted the same way.

[2007 5.9]

Les, I would say that it is the load based limiter that is killing it. We have a fummins w/6.7 that should be running in the next couple of days and I imagine I will be fighting the same thing. When Zach and I were tag teaming Richard Madsen's truck it reacted the same way.

What was the fix? Or wasn't there one?

[ScarabEpic22]

Sounds like the 6.7L load based stuff, is it related to the lack of a VSS signal?

Ive never done a swap like this, the guys that have probably have a better idea of what's up.

[anarchydiesel]

Moved duration, timing, pressure below 90mm3. Rescaled axis's to give more control between 0-90. The truck still never ran to potential and I have not talked to Richard in quite a while.

[anarchydiesel]

Likely, but not sure. We really need to track down the load based limiter, that would change all 6.7 tuning completely not just the conversion trucks.

[2007 5.9]

Makes it such a SMALL window for tuning....

[anarchydiesel]

Yes, very hard to get a good smooth tune built. The 5.9s can be similar but usually the limit to around 115 not 90.

[ScarabEpic22]

Good info, Ive heard the 6.7s have a load based limiter but havent heard if it's been found yet or not. Guess this confirms it hasnt yet.

If you can only get 90-94mm3 of fuel, yea that's going to seriously limit potential. Since Im still getting into the diesel stuff, is there any way you could fudge the ECM into giving more fuel even if it only commanded 90mm3? Like gas guys do with fudging injector flow rates or fuel pressure (probably not applicable on a diesel)?

[KhakiCummins]

Eric, I think this goes back to what Zach told us in class, the mm3 in the diesel tuning is just a value...

Assuming that what the load limited does is limit you to say 90 mm3, then I think that if you were to re-scale your tables from say 0-90 instead of 0-150, you may be able to get around it. This is all just theory though...

I suppose I could always try to build a tune like that and run is and see what it does.... With not having to deal with the limiter though, I don't know if I would really be able to tell if it worked.

[WetMtnCrd]

Ill look at it in the morning with fresh eyes, do you happen to have a log of it not fueling past 94mm3?

And you just do not have a VSS feed into the ECM correct? All other sensors except VGT and VATS/security are there?

What are your goals with this, how many RPMs do you want/can you run? Mods on the motor?

The sensors to the ECM I have are: RPM, ECT, MPA, IAT/Baro, MAP, MAF. No VGT, no emissions of any kind, and no VSS. As far as a data log what would you like to see. I have so many right now I'd have to look through them all and see if I have something you want. Or just get a new one. Either way it'll have to wait till the weekend when I have more time to look through stuff. I sent a few to Les, he might be able to answer some questions too. He worked on this a bit without much success either. I'll look at and try the tune anarchy redid this weekend also. Sounds like finding the load limiting may be the answer though. Also I've been trying to get the fuel pressure up and haven't had any luck at all with it. I've adjusted the fuel pressure tabel, the duty cycle table, and the FCAC table. None of them made any significant difference. But I have developed a fuel pressure oscilliation under moderate acceleration when empty or towing. It's pretty noticeable seat of the pants and on the data log. Light cruise it can't be felt but there is a slight oscillation that can be seen at times on the logs. I'll try to find one that shows it and post it. The oscillation problem is almost a bigger issue for me right now. I don't think it's good for the engine and fuel system for this to be happening. Thanks to everyone for your input. We'll get this figured out.
Doug

[WetMtnCrd]

Les, I would say that it is the load based limiter that is killing it. We have a fummins w/6.7 that should be running in the next couple of days and I imagine I will be fighting the same thing. When Zach and I were tag teaming Richard Madsen's truck it reacted the same way.

Keep us posted on your fummins project. I'd like to know if you have the same tuning issues. The question I still have is how did Smarty do it. I had Smarty on here when we first got it running and it ran pretty good. I didn't log anything so I don't know if it fully fueled or not. But it ran ok. Has anyone ever logged a Smarty tuned 6.7 to see what it's doing with the mm3. Or are they just doing a work around with pw and timing.

[2007 5.9]

Two logs from this truck...crude tuning with high pulse, but I was to get it to do something....
14835
14836

[2007 5.9]

No DTC's in any logs...

[KhakiCummins]

Do you have any logs that show Throttle Position and Commanded Fuel (mm3)?

[2007 5.9]

No...just mm3/load etc

[ScarabEpic22]

Looks like you were able to get ~100mm3 in 0007 with a 2500pw, but TQPM maxes out at 55.3% during initial stomp. There's got to be a limiter or another table in there (that we might not be able to see) that's holding it back. 0008 was higher at 3200pw, but notice the crazy drop in pw between frames 65-80 while RPMs are still increasing. It goes from 3200 to 1115 then ramps back up to 2500. The sheer amount of pw change from frames 65->95 is a serious issue, but I have no idea what the root cause is.

What does TP do at WOT? It easy to tell what WOT is in the logs, but cant hurt to see what the TP % is during that.

[2007 5.9]

Yeah the pulse swings indicate a limiter...but we don't have it yet.

[WetMtnCrd]

I'll get some new logs in a day or so with various throttle positions. Most of what I currently have are WOT or below 40%. I've been working on getting rid of some smoke on the low end and adjusting the pw and pressure for cruising and WOT. So I don't have any that shows the mid range at all.

[WetMtnCrd]

Looks like you were able to get ~100mm3 in 0007 with a 2500pw, but TQPM maxes out at 55.3% during initial stomp. There's got to be a limiter or another table in there (that we might not be able to see) that's holding it back. 0008 was higher at 3200pw, but notice the crazy drop in pw between frames 65-80 while RPMs are still increasing. It goes from 3200 to 1115 then ramps back up to 2500. The sheer amount of pw change from frames 65->95 is a serious issue, but I have no idea what the root cause is.

What does TP do at WOT? It easy to tell what WOT is in the logs, but cant hurt to see what the TP % is during that.

May be a shift point or a change in the fuel pressure table as RPM changes or both.

[KhakiCummins]

I see that you have the TQ and Fuel Limiters disabled but have you tried raising the values in the Limiter tables just to make sure that the ECM is not still using them?

[2007 5.9]

My tunes have all limiter values at max

[WetMtnCrd]

Ok. Here's a data log from the tune I'm using after anarchy's changes to the limiter tables. I already had those limiters disabled and the changes made no difference. So now I believe disabling those probably works. But it never hurts to try stuff. If you look at the data log and then compare what's happening to what's on the tune file you'll see that the pressure (mpa) and quantity (mm3) are no where new what is being commanded. But even if the mm3 table is only a max value then the pressure is still not what it should be relative to actual mm3 and rpm. Consequently the pw and timing are not where they should be either. Even with 90mm3 limit the pressure should be higher and that would effect pw and timing. I've tried to get the pressure up but none of the related tables respond to any adjustment. The only tables that seem to have any effect at all are timing and pw and they are limited to what the pressure and mm3 are doing. Which is whatever they damn well please. :wallbash:

[KhakiCummins]

I've taken the file that you posted in this thread 3 days ago and rescaled it so that what was 160mm3 is now 90mm3 if you would like to try it. This should tell you if the limiter that you are hitting is limiting mm3 or some other value. All I did was divide any mm3 in your tune by 1.7778 to get the new values. All of your timing and fuel pressure values have been left unchanged so it you look at all your tables they will look the same, the mm3 axis will just be scaled differently.

14845

[KhakiCummins]

Well, I guess I should say this file will tell you if the ECM has a hard coded value that is limiting mm3. It could still be limiting mm3 by limiting you to say the mm3 value at 60% throttle...

[WetMtnCrd]

Haven't forgotten you guys or bailed out on this. Was out of town and then got involved in some other projects. Hope to get back on this soon. Duane, I didn't get a chance to try your file yet. That'll be next when I get back on this.

[Ltcbm]

You haven't mentioned it in this thread but have you tried to pull a vss signal from the Allison trans. it maybe a different pulse rate but if the pcm see vehicle movement it should eliminate this issue. I will pull up a wiring diagram and pin layout and also check and see what volt signal it is looking for. As lond as it does not run though the tipm it shouldn't be hard to make it work.

[WetMtnCrd]

No I didn't try that. You would still have to get it converted to the CAN bus. Bottom line is that until someone figures out how to get around the limitations of the stock ecm on a conversion truck with out all the other boxes and sensors of a stock Dodge truck setup you will not get full potiential out of it. At least not with EFI. I'm not bashing anyone here but that's the simple facts. Somehow Smarty did it but you don't have any tuning capability with Smarty and can't get rid of the pilot/post injections. I was able to get it to run fairly well but not up to full potential by cranking up the pulse widths and adjusting the timing. The fuel tables and the pressure tables didn't really respond to adjustment the way I thought they should. I'm currently back on the Zeus ecm from Destroked. Not going to coment too much here but it works. It lacks the cold start and low throttle setting manners of the stock ecm but it's drivable and it works very well. I will continue to monitor the forum to see if anyone figures out how to get EFI to do this the way we want it to and answer any questions based on my limited experience with EFI. I only spent 5 months trying to figure it out so I'm no expert.

[beav]

Have one that won't fuel. I only get 94mm3 at full throttle. It goes to that value fairly early (at 100% TP) and just stays there. The only changes made to the stock tune so far are to eliminate the post injection and smooth out and add a little timing to the main+adjust timing tables. Nothing permanent but just enough to get started. The quantity tables go up to 150mm3 so I thought I should get more than 94mm3.
Here's some notes from one of my logs on what it's doing: (I have a bunch of logs and didn't want to go back through them all to find which one had this on it. We have a lot of snow up here now so not easy to go out and get a new one.)
TP 100%
RPM 2800
MAP 37psi
FPA 22670 psi
DC 45.7%
Pilot PW 252.6us
Main PW 1113.0us
CMD Fuel 94.9
Load 73%
No post injection.

If I need to get other parameters just let me know what PIDs are needed and I will try to another log sometime soon when the roads clear up.

Also I have some smoke on the low end I would like to clean up. Below 40% TP and under 1800 RPM. Should this be done with PW, FPA, or mm3?

Thanks.

How were you able to log the injection durations? My PIDs are X'd out and will not allow me to select them.

Also, on a side note...how well is your Allison shifting? Are you using Destroked's XFC and TPS input?

Reason I ask...mine is shifting well, but I keep getting a 742 code unless I bump up the TPS low calibration from .44v to .94v. When reading the Allison shop manual, this code will set over a couple conditions but will primarily be based on the slip going above the "pre-determined" value when it shouldn't. Still troubleshooting and certainly have not ruled out a stuck converter flow valve. Anyways, just curious if you have seen anything like this.

[WetMtnCrd]

Yes. I am running the Destroked system. Transmission works fine. It has a Transgo shift kit and CoPilot. I have seen the 742 code. But I don't see codes often 'cause they don't show up in the Ford ecu so never get a check engine light. Only if I'm connected to the TCM to look at other stuff and happen to look at codes.

[beav]

Yes. I am running the Destroked system. Transmission works fine. It has a Transgo shift kit and CoPilot. I have seen the 742 code. But I don't see codes often 'cause they don't show up in the Ford ecu so never get a check engine light. Only if I'm connected to the TCM to look at other stuff and happen to look at codes.

p0742 code issue has been resolved by calibrating the XFC PWM1 lowerend values (down) until I saw 0 ft-lbs calculated torque @ 0% throttle. Many thanks to PCS and Destroked for helping me resolve this.

When I was getting the code, I would lose reverse...so, you will know when you get the p0742 code.

[WetMtnCrd]

Yea. I occassionally get a reverse lock-out. I'm sure it's the same code but I've never looked at it right when it happens. I'll have to look at the xfc file and see what's happening. Where were you reading the calculated torque?

[beav]

Yea. I occassionally get a reverse lock-out. I'm sure it's the same code but I've never looked at it right when it happens. I'll have to look at the xfc file and see what's happening. Where were you reading the calculated torque?

The PID you want is {GM.TRQENG.B}. This is the value generated by the XFC and sent to the TCM. It is based on TPS and RPM. If you are at 0% throttle and RPM, you should see a value of 0 or at least close to 0 ft-lbs. If you are not seeing it, you will need to adjust the PWM1 table in the XFC config to get the desired values. In my case, I dropped the entire 0% TPS row from a value of 58 to 51 and it now shows 0 ft-lbs and immediately changes as soon as start pushing the pedal. Again, thanks to PCS and Destroked for the assistance!

Now as a word of warning, you do not want to lower things too much or you risk very undesirable effects in the tranny.

This should do the trick.

BTW, how does your TPS as seen in scale with pedal movement?

[WetMtnCrd]

My TPS appears to be fairly linear. I did change the 0% TPS line also. It was the same as yours. Read 108 ftlbs with a 58 value. I brought it down a little a time till it read 0 ftlbs. Ended up with 51 as the final value just as yours did. Thanks for the tip on that. Shouldn't get the reverse lockout anymore.

[WetMtnCrd]

In reference to monitoring the pulse widths (injection durations) I think it's on one of the fuel PID "groups" that we are stuck using. Even though EFI claims that's the only way to monitor PID's on this ECM Auto Enginuity can read individual PID's but it's quite a bit slower on refresh rate. So I'm hoping they can fix this sometime in the future.

[beav]

Glad to hear that you were able to get it adjusted. It should help.


My TPS appears to be fairly linear...
So, to confirm, {GM.TP} reads almost lthe same values across the scale with your pedal position? What year is your ECU and which APPS/pedal are you using?

My {GM.TP} ramps up very quickly when I push the pedal. For example, when I am at about 25% actual position, {GM.TP} is already reading 60% or higher. The values is actually called "effective" TPS and it appears to be a mystery as to what all inputs are involved. I believe that MAF may even be incorporated into the "effective" value. In any event, can you double check that particular PID when you get a chance? If yours does in fact scale 1:1 or even close, i would love to know more about your swap because this wild scaling makes it difficult to interpret the logs at times.

[WetMtnCrd]

Glad to hear that you were able to get it adjusted. It should help.


So, to confirm, {GM.TP} reads almost lthe same values across the scale with your pedal position? What year is your ECU and which APPS/pedal are you using?



My {GM.TP} ramps up very quickly when I push the pedal. For example, when I am at about 25% actual position, {GM.TP} is already reading 60% or higher. The values is actually called "effective" TPS and it appears to be a mystery as to what all inputs are involved. I believe that MAF may even be incorporated into the "effective" value. In any event, can you double check that particular PID when you get a chance? If yours does in fact scale 1:1 or even close, i would love to know more about your swap because this wild scaling makes it difficult to interpret the logs at times.

My ECM is the one that came with the engine. It was out of a 2008 Ram 4500 C&C truck. Don't know about the APPS, It's whatever Scott put on it when they changed from the 5.9 to the 6.7.

I use a different TP PID when monitoring or tuning. It's one that is actual TPS. That other one that ramps up really fast and then settles back in my opinion is used to get things started. Perhaps for better throttle response. It's a calculated value--"effective calculated throttle position". Problem is I'm told that there is no bi-directional communication between the TCM and ECM through XFC. So there's no feed back from the TCM to the ECM. It only goes the other way so that the TCM gets TPS and RPM. At least that's what I was told.

[beav]

My ECM is the one that came with the engine. It was out of a 2008 Ram 4500 C&C truck. Don't know about the APPS, It's whatever Scott put on it when they changed from the 5.9 to the 6.7.

I use a different TP PID when monitoring or tuning. That other one that ramps up really fast and then settles back in my opinion is used to get things started. Perhaps for better throttle response. Problem is I'm told that there is no bi-directional communication between the TCM and ECM through XFC. So there's no feed back from the TCM to the ECM. It only goes the other way so that the TCM gets TPS and RPM. At least that's what I was told.

Chances are, if Scott set you up with the APPS it would most likely be the one from the Dodge or C&C which should be the same. I am using the one from the Dodge because nothing else made better sense to use. Plus the pedal fits nicely. I did not use Destroked's bracket because it flexed too much and would not allow me to get the pedal to 100% with a mat...so I made my own.

So, what PID do you use for TPS?

You are correct, there is absolutely no connection between the TCM and ECU/ECM with the Destroked setup. Load demand is calculated by the TPS and RPM and calibrated with the PWM1/2 tables. I am working on a solution to tie the TCM and ECU together so that I can achieve true load demand from the engine and a defuel signal on shift from the TCM. This is how it should be. Not knocking the XFC solution because it works, but having it this way will provide better control of both the engine and transmission across all rapid changing driving habits. So, if you have been cruising around from light to light, then that DMax puffs some smoke at you, you will be free to put it to the floor without worrying about hurting the tranny with a surprising load. Really, the Allison would work just like it does in a GM truck.

My two biggest wishes from EFILive is that they roll out the 6.7 CSP5 soon and provide more PIDs for the Allison. Also, if they could figure out how to get the SKIM disable to "really" work on the Dodge O/S's.

[WetMtnCrd]

I'll have to look to see what PID I'm using for TP next time I have it hooked up. Mostly I use the one from either the XFC or ECM 'cause the TCM one is that calculated one that's not very useful. We had a high temp today of 8 deg and it's not looking like it's going to warm up anytime soon. So I'm not exactly anxious to get out there and do a lot.

[beav]

I'll have to look to see what PID I'm using for TP next time I have it hooked up. Mostly I use the one from either the XFC or ECM 'cause the TCM one is that calculated one that's not very useful. We had a high temp today of 8 deg and it's not looking like it's going to warm up anytime soon. So I'm not exactly anxious to get out there and do a lot.

Yeah, weather stinks right now. We have some ice storms coming in the next few days...yuk!

I've done the same on TPS PIDs. My ECU TPS PID is clean as a whistle.

What PID are you using in the TCM for speed? I cannot find any PIDs that show speed. All I know to do it create a calc PID from {GM.TOS} along with my rear gear ratio and tire size conversion.

[WetMtnCrd]

I don't think there's a speed PID working at the present time. The only thing we have is output shaft speed. The same with "RPM"--it's input shaft speed. XFC doesn't have a speed signal either. We need to get one of those working. Either from the TCM or use the Ford one somehow.

[turboram]

Ok. Here's a data log from the tune I'm using after anarchy's changes to the limiter tables. I already had those limiters disabled and the changes made no difference. So now I believe disabling those probably works. But it never hurts to try stuff. If you look at the data log and then compare what's happening to what's on the tune file you'll see that the pressure (mpa) and quantity (mm3) are no where new what is being commanded. But even if the mm3 table is only a max value then the pressure is still not what it should be relative to actual mm3 and rpm. Consequently the pw and timing are not where they should be either. Even with 90mm3 limit the pressure should be higher and that would effect pw and timing. I've tried to get the pressure up but none of the related tables respond to any adjustment. The only tables that seem to have any effect at all are timing and pw and they are limited to what the pressure and mm3 are doing. Which is whatever they damn well please. :wallbash:

I have a c&c that is doing this exact thing , but the h&s will fuel fine . There has to be a table that efi is not giving us access to

[WetMtnCrd]

I haven't messed with the stock ECM much this past year. But it's good to know that H&S will also fuel as will Smarty. So I agree that something is missing in EFI. Been kind of frustrated with EFI for this reason. Why can Smarty and H&S do it but EFI can't make it happen? It's a great tuning tool with a lot of flexibility but useless without being able to get the fueling and pressures up. That said I've been using the Zeus from Destroked for a while and they have the cold start problem almost solved. The driveability is still not quite where the stock ECM is but there is improvement. Would probly go back to the stock ECM if EFI worked better for tunning.

[mpdtune]

I haven't messed with the stock ECM much this past year. But it's good to know that H&S will also fuel as will Smarty. So I agree that something is missing in EFI. Been kind of frustrated with EFI for this reason. Why can Smarty and H&S do it but EFI can't make it happen? It's a great tuning tool with a lot of flexibility but useless without being able to get the fueling and pressures up. That said I've been using the Zeus from Destroked for a while and they have the cold start problem almost solved. The driveability is still not quite where the stock ECM is but there is improvement. Would probly go back to the stock ECM if EFI worked better for tunning.

I went through and made some changes with the latest update from EFILive. I think this might solve your issue. If not, get an '08 pickup ECM. I have a file to make those work. 18069

[WetMtnCrd]

I haven't done any updates lately in fear of losing the ability to do deletes. Haven't really kept up with what's going on with EFI lately. Will I need to update my V2 or will this work with an older build version? Thanks. It's nice to know someone is still working on this.

[WetMtnCrd]

So there is a difference between the C&C and pick up ECM's? I thought so after trying some pickup files back when I first got EFI and they wouldn't work. That's interesting. Can you elaborate on the differences? I'm really curious now.

[beav]

So there is a difference between the C&C and pick up ECM's? I thought so after trying some pickup files back when I first got EFI and they wouldn't work. That's interesting. Can you elaborate on the differences? I'm really curious now.

From what I saw is that the stock tunes are obviously different, but IIRC there was a difference in the list of PIDs available. It has been a while sine I looked at this as I sold the truck, but may be getting back into these swaps sooner than later. Glad to see that your swap is still running strong and that Destroked is making headway with their Zeus!

[mpdtune]

I haven't done any updates lately in fear of losing the ability to do deletes. Haven't really kept up with what's going on with EFI lately. Will I need to update my V2 or will this work with an older build version? Thanks. It's nice to know someone is still working on this.

You will need to update to the latest software and firmware to flash my file. Updates will not remove deletes, if anything they enhance them. The c&c are a different breed, lots of little differences.

[WetMtnCrd]

Can a C&C ecm be reflashed with a different OS or core software to a pickup ecm? That might be the way to go if this file doesn't work since I have the Zeus to keep me going if I need to send the stock one off.

[mpdtune]

Not that I know of. Hardway Performance might be able to work some magic with a bench flash though.

[WetMtnCrd]

Ok thanks. Just got everything updated. Will have to install stock ecm and try this. Looked through the file and there definitely a lot of new stuff there. Might be be a couple days before I actually get to try it out. Wx has not been very nice here on the mountain lately. And expecting more snow tonight. It's 10 miles down to pavement before I can really test anything above light throttle and only if it's dry down there. I'll let you know how it goes as soon as I can. Thanks again.

[mpdtune]

Let me know. It's a pretty roughed-in tune but you'll know if it's getting full fueling.

[Backhoe man]

Can a C&C ecm be reflashed with a different OS or core software to a pickup ecm? That might be the way to go if this file doesn't work since I have the Zeus to keep me going if I need to send the stock one off.

Nope I had trouble with this for a loooooong time. My ECM was killed by a tuner long ago and they replaced it with a C&C ECM without my knowing about it. I had all kinds of problems with efi due to this. Every time I would try to flash a truck OS on it the thing truck would drive like a rank horse trying to buck you out the door. Anyway I bought a used truck ECM and it works just fine no more problems at all. I always had a few gremlins in the C&C ecm even after I got an OS that drove good. A few little limiters that would pop up in certain situations, high load low rpm roll on would run into a huge mm limiter that I could never find. Anyway best of luck with the modified file and you can probably find a truck ecm pretty cheap, there is a guy on Compd that almost always has one. I think his user name is Mark Nixon, it does not matter if it is manual or auto.

[WetMtnCrd]

Well that file didn't help. Did the same thing as previous files. See attached log file. Still limiting mm3 so you don't get decent fuel pressure either. Also got continuous black smoke at low throttle settings which I got before anytime I messed with pilot or post injection. Never got it with a completely stock file. Only when I changed pilot and/or post injection. Still something missing in the C&C ecm that is not being addressed. Guess I'll shop for a pickup ecm. If that don't fix it my v2 is going in the fire place. :wallbash: Don't want to but may have to go back to Smarty for my stock ecm's for winter time use. It worked!

[mpdtune]

Has the intake air temp always been -58?

[WetMtnCrd]

Has the intake air temp always been -58?

Yes. The sensor is installed and plugged in. But when the conversion was done not sure if all the wiring made it. I've seen that before and always wondered if it was an issue. But I'm not the only one having issues with the C&C ecm. But then most if not all of those with problems are in conversion trucks and may have the same situation.

[WetMtnCrd]

Ok. Took a different approach to this dilemma. Talked with Levi David of 501 ENGINEERING (David.Levi501@yahoo.com, does wiring harnesses for conversion trucks) and he had loaded a Smarty tune and then read it back with EFI and then reloaded it and all worked fine. He sent me his file and I tried it and it works on my C&C ecm also. So basically he used a Smarty tune that will fuel properly on the C&C ecm in a conversion truck and saved it as an EFI file and it works fine. So whatever it is that keeps the C&C ecm from fully fueling in a conversion truck got fixed in the conversion somewhere. And what's interesting is that all the security stuff, skim, vgt, limiters, etc are still active in tune file. It's like an original stock unmolested file with a Smarty level 3 tune on it. Truck starts, stays running, and runs fine. I got 125mm3 commanded fuel quantity and nearly 40# boost. Not huge but better than 95mm3 and 25# that I was getting before. And for stock injectiors and 9000' altitude that's acceptable. At least now I have something to work with.

[mpdtune]

Do you mind posting up that Smarty file?

[SASDakota]

That is great news! I wonder what is different between the two files.

[WetMtnCrd]

Ok. Here it is. It will give some warning but loads and runs fine.

18104
Do you mind posting up that Smarty file?

[WetMtnCrd]

That is great news! I wonder what is different between the two files.

Haven't had a chance to sit down and compare them yet.

[mpdtune]

Smarty file is a pickup file. At least according to the operating system. You're original OS isn't even listed on tune file depot. I compared it to that stock file for the Smarty OS
Comparison summary: 10:38:13 am, Tuesday Mar 10, 2015

Calibration comparison between CMC_Levi_RCVR_Base_0001.ctz and 2008 Dodge Ram Truck Automatic ISB 6.7 Litre (11620807-62350435).ctz.
*Values that differ by more than 0.000100% are considered different.


B1254 "Fuel Limiter, Boost Table 1, RPM Axis" 1.220722 "Different from row 0 to row 2 inclusive."
B1255 "Fuel Limiter, Boost Table 1" 40.000001 "Different from cell: 0,0 to cell: 13,1 inclusive."
B1258 "Fuel Limiter, Barometric, Table 2" 16.236413 "Different from cell: 0,0 to cell: 5,20 inclusive."
B1259 "Fuel Limiter, Barometric, Table 3" 17.504529 "Different from cell: 0,0 to cell: 5,20 inclusive."
B1250 "Fuel Limiter, Table Selection, RPM Axis" 1.220722 "Different from row 0 to row 9 inclusive."
B1252 "Fuel Limiter, Table Selection" 5.661232 "Different from cell: 0,0 to cell: 6,13 inclusive."
E2536 "Fuel Limiter, Table Selection 2" 2.428668 "Different from cell: 0,6 to cell: 7,18 inclusive."
F0520 "Fuel Limiter, Torque, RPM Axis" -1.220722 "Different from row 2 to row 18 inclusive."
F0522 "Fuel Limiter, Torque" 2.169309 "Different from cell: 0,2 to cell: 10,18 inclusive."
F1188 "Torque Converter Protection" N/A "CAL: Disabled <-> ALT: Enabled"
D5752 "Idle Speed" -3.380047 "Different from row 2 to row 3 inclusive."
D5753 "Idle Speed vs Altitude" -1.220722 "Different from row 0 to row 4 inclusive."
C4514 "Turbo Maximum Position Altitude Range 3" 8.000000 "Different from cell: 0,0 to cell: 0,17 inclusive."
E2671 "Mass Charge Flow, Alt 5" 0.834668 "Different from cell: 0,13 to cell: 0,13 inclusive."

[mpdtune]

Try this file. All stock except for codes and full throttle set to 160 mm of fuel.

[WetMtnCrd]

Ok. I've never been able to get a pickup file to work in this ecm. This is a level 3 w/tnt smarty file. So there will be some differences on those tables. Regardless of what's in the tune tables this file will fuel above 95mm3 where as the none of the C&C files I tried with EFI would. What's interesting is that everything that other people were telling me that had to be turned off in order for these files to work on a conversion truck ( no TIPM or other modules ) are all on and active. At least they're shown to be in the tables. I'm just happy to have a file than I can now work using EFI with even though the truck runs pretty good with this file.

[WetMtnCrd]

Well I screwed up a little. That other file is a recovery file that was done the same way. Haven't tried that one. Here's the one I'm using. Sorry.

18106

[jkholder09]

Do you think smarty having the right three columns on the f0505 table above 160 has anything to do with the fueling being above 95mm.
Why did you set the post injection to 4 and not zero, does having a number in there other than zero make a difference?

[WetMtnCrd]

I don't really know why this file fuels like it does. I think the only way to answer your question would be to incrementally roll back those numbers and see what happens. I may try the recovery file ("RCVR" file) that I post by accident in an earlier post and see what it does. I suspect it's going to do what I've experienced in the past--95mm3. My ecm had a Smarty tune on it when I first got it and it was supposed to be taken off and returned to stock, but I do know that Smarty has a file #0 that is "half power" and I'm beginning to wonder if that's what happens when you try to remove Smarty with their recovery file. I say that because that's about how the truck runs on that original " return to stock" file.

The post injection on that file is the same as a stock file. I didn't change it because I just wanted to see if it would work and fuel above 95mm3. Now that I know it works I'll make changes to suit my needs.

I just want to clarify that the file I'm using is the "CMC_Levi_Smarty3_Base_0001" file. Not the RCVR file from the earlier post.

[WetMtnCrd]

Try this file. All stock except for codes and full throttle set to 160 mm of fuel.

Ok. I tried this file and it's the weakest file I've ever used. 77mm3, 49.7% load, etc. See attached log file. Must be a valet or emissions file. Anyway pretty puny for some reason. I didn't look through it to see if I could find anything that might be limiting it this much.


18116

[mpdtune]

Ok. I tried this file and it's the weakest file I've ever used. 77mm3, 49.7% load, etc. See attached log file. Must be a valet or emissions file. Anyway pretty puny for some reason. I didn't look through it to see if I could find anything that might be limiting it this much.


18116

I used the recovery file you post haha, that's why it's got no power.

[WetMtnCrd]

That's got to be their half power tune. I posted that recovery file by mistake. Oh well. Stuff happens. My original stock tune which is supposed to be a Smarty "return to stock" file does better than this one. It'll do 95mm3 and 73% load. Did you look at the other file, the Smarty3 one? That's the one I'm most interested in now because it will fuel to a decent level. Something I can at least work with using EFI.

[mpdtune]

I haven't had a chance yet. I'll do it today.

[mpdtune]

Give this a try. This is the file you last posted with all available delete options for modules/codes in efilive. Also disabled the injection limiters (efilive only thing). And smoothed out the timing tables. Give this a try but go easy. If it works correctly its got some big fueling numbers up top, gotta love Smarty lol.

[jkholder09]

Table e2536 still has some fuel rates under 100mm some are even as low as 45mm. Its pretty tough to tell which alternate table may be selected but making that entire table 200 may cut loose the last defuelss in the tune as well. I don't know if going over 200 in the boost table will matter but it was worth a try.

[WetMtnCrd]

Ok. We're making progress now. I ran that file but not with out making some changes. Did not want to run that much timing so I changed the timing tables back to the original. Could probly use a little more but not 40*. Also while I was in there I went ahead and opened up e2536, b1252, and f0522. I really believe e2536 was the last hurdle to clear because the numbers on the upper Alt columns are what I was seeing for fuel quantity as the limit before. Don't know if the torque table (f0522) is limiting or just a reference for measurement. At 610 my dash board TQ% reads 100% but at 1000 it reads 89%. So....?? But anyway I think this file now has no limiting going on at all. See the attached log file. Looks like a bigger CP3 is in order. Can't do 168 at 4250 pw with a stock one. Rolled back to 125-130 & 3100-3200 and it did a lot better. :)

Now I gotta start working on better mileage. At lower throttle settings and rpm it just does what whatever it damn well pleases!


18125

[mpdtune]

Looks like it's fueling good now. Those smarty files run crazy duration. At least there's a decent base file to start with now. Upgrade to a CSP5 file will give you a lot more control. 3100us is about the limit of duration on a stock CP3.

[jkholder09]

I agree on the e2536 table good to see you got it working!

[WetMtnCrd]

Thanks for all the help on this. Been quite a challenge getting these C&C ecm's in the conversion trucks to work well. This is what forums are supposed to be---sharing and learning. Too many people think their knowledge and info are on the level of national security and require large monetary investment to share. Thanks again.
Haven't looked into the CSP5 stuff yet. Will have to do that. Need to investigate a couple parameters to see if they are affecting my low throttle/rpm operation. Mainly the IAT, AAT, and ECT. Don't know why EFI doesn't read the ECT. Zeus read it ok so I know it's connected but the others were never looked at. But there are a couple different options ( SAE and CM_*) for pid's in the EFI pid tables. Just have to figure out what "group" they are in and see what works. That's my next priority--to get the mileage up.

[mpdtune]

Flashing to CSP5 will enable EDA logging. Makes life much easier.

[andyman]

I'm glad I found this post. I'm running into this exact problem myself on an 08 pickup ECM. What exactly was changed to remove the limits?