LML Flashing Support

[cindy@efilive]

The Duramax LML comes close to the top of the list for customers asking for support as EFILive has historically been 'the' tuner to run for Duramax owners. Since hitting the Dealers' lots in 2011, we've held many discussions with many people on the pros and cons of supporting this platform whilst keeping a close eye on the struggles the European tuning market has gone through with their own versions of the EDC17.

The issue has been, and continues to be, that EFILive traditionally requires customers to read their ECM via the OBD2 port to generate the file to be edited and then re-flashed. The OBD2 read restriction in place from the factory effectively prevents this first critical step and simply cannot be bypassed, serious LML development never commenced based on this issue alone.

As we discussed in our January newsletter, EFILive plans on expanding our structure for adding additional controllers where customers create their own tunes with external software and simply use EFILive as a convenient way to deliver tunes to customers, much like the read/write functions that already exists in our software for the GM V6 Bosch ECM's (E55, E69 & E77) even though EFILive offers no mapping for these ECM's.

The Duramax LML will be the next ECM to be supported in this fashion as EFILive has been busy adding LML flashing functionality. With advancements in third party tools, our historical stance has changed. Given the OBD2 read restrictions, customers will be required to physically open their LML ECM, solder a wire to the PCB and read out their stock file using external hardware/software, then create and edit their own maps using third party map editing software. EFILive will simply provide the OBD2 flashing mechanism through our V8 software and FlashScan V2 and AutoCal hardware, giving tuners a familiar and consistent way to deliver tunes to their customers. Most importantly the V8 software will also implement checksum corrections to the LML files so they can be externally edited via other software and fixed ready for programming. Enhanced scantool data is already available for the LML.

Given the cost and complexity that needs to be invested to obtain and edit the LML file, this solution is clearly designed to provide those professional tuners who already support, or plan to support the LML via ECM exchange program rather than an individual looking to tune their own vehicle.

Our first release will not include any mapping, and EFILive will not offer any map finding services or hints on how to locate maps in bin files, however we plan on offering basic mapping support for the LML in the future.

EFILive does not plan on offering any hardware solutions for reading the files out of the LML nor are we able to provide stock tunes for customers, we have however created a file import function for one of the European JTAG read/write hardware solutions.

Early indication suggest that a full setup for read hardware, software, along with mapping programs will cost in the vicinity of $10,000 USD. This is NOT a cheap proposition and is definitely targeted at high volume workshops, not individual tuners.

There are already several vehicles running custom tunes programmed with EFILive LML Flashing support. Further beta testing will commence shortly across a wider range of vehicles and public release will follow in the very near future.

Regards,
The EFILive Development Team.

http://download.efilive.com/Email/LML_Flashing_542.png

[gp184]

glad we have some support at all!!!! :sly: Thanks Cindy and all others!!!

[catman3126]

well this is good news.

[ScarabEpic22]

well this is god news but do i understand correctly that to have full feature tuning ablity it wil cost 10K?

I believe that's more of a rough estimate, everyone needs to understand that this release is ONLY flashing (I believe scanning/logging is already supported). In order to obtain a tune and build a tune, a 3rd party application and hardware must be used. If you have to develop everything yourself, this will be a lengthy and expensive process. This is where the 10k figure comes in as I imagine there are a few workshops that have already invested the R&D into it but would rather use EFILive to flash their updated tunes than develop yet another solution for flashing.

Regardless, this is good news for the LML guys!

[catman3126]

yep i understand

[GMPX]

That's exactly the situation Erik, well said.

[cindy@efilive]

It's not a solution designed for an individual user, it's simply not cost effective. It's designed for those workshops who have already invested heavily in alternative tuning tools as a delivery mechanism to their customers.

I should also say, that we can't control the outcome of the solution, we can only work within the constraints of the ECM. The only reason this is being offered is because we had a number of workshops say that flashing support would assist their end user delivery. If it wasn't for their ingenuity and persistence there wouldn't be a solution at all.

The measureable cost extends well beyond the figures in the first post. The workshops involved have invested 100's if not 1,000's of development hours in creating and finding their own maps for editing.

Cheers
Cindy

[catman3126]

so would is it possible that we could buy a tune from said workshop and use our V2 to flash a tune into our LML?

[GMPX]

I want to make it clear to everyone, it is still not possible to read the LML ECM without pulling the cover off and soldering wires, that is how it is on all EDC17's, it's the nature of the beast, but unfortunately it really restricts just how DIY tuning an LML can really be. Hence we've tried to point out that this isn't a full EFILive for LML tuning solution, but it fits well for others that have been able to get to the point where they have tunes that need to be flashed without pulling the ECM apart.

[GMPX]

so would is it possible that we could buy a tune from said workshop and use our V2 to flash a tune into our LML?
If (and only if) they are able to obtain stock tunes and modify the tunes, none of that is possible with EFILive at the moment, but if you are able to get a tuned file (an EFILive .ctz file) for your truck then yes, EFILive can flash it in. Reality is this is happening all the time with Autocals, the end user just flashes in tunes the tuner creates for them, it makes no difference to them how the tune was created, same for the LML.
I imagine it will be pretty easy to figure out from online posts who is able to offer this service. It's not EFILive's business to say how they are obtaining or creating the tunes, or even who it is, much like we wouldn't openly advertise tuners anyway.

[catman3126]

yep gotcha. Thanks

[DURAtotheMAX]

If basic LML mapping support ever becomes available, would there maybe be some deal where the "license" to activate LML tuning is a couple grand or something (similar to a stream license), that tuning shops could buy, and then they would be on their own as far as opening up ECM's and reading tunes?

I highly doubt EFILive wants to open up the can of worms as far as giving away that capability to all EFILive customers as a general "update". I cant even imagine how many threads would result in "wait so how do I solder the jumper wire on the PCB??? Can someone make a DIY for this???" :sneaky: :bangin:

But for those of us who are comfortable with working on electronics and have advanced soldering/mechanical skills, etc and dont mind investing a chunk of change for LML support, it might be an interesting proposition....

ben

[GMPX]

If basic LML mapping support ever becomes available, would there maybe be some deal where the "license" to activate LML tuning is a couple grand or something (similar to a stream license), that tuning shops could buy, and then they would be on their own as far as opening up ECM's and reading tunes?
I think what you are getting at there is essentially another level to keep the DIY guy out of the market (I know that sounds bad)?


I highly doubt EFILive wants to open up the can of worms as far as giving away that capability to all EFILive customers as a general "update". I cant even imagine how many threads would result in "wait so how do I solder the jumper wire on the PCB???
Well, it will be a general update, much like the ability to read and flash E55, E69 & E77 Bosch ECM's has been a general update for a long time, unless you know how to tune those controllers yourself it's useless to you.
LML is the same, unless you have the means to pull ECM's apart, obtain the files via other hardware, find the maps etc then the EFILive flashing update is worthless to you so at this point it doesn't make sense to restrict it or charge additional money to tuning shops who wish to offer it. I don't think there is a down side to that (unless you can think of one).


But for those of us who are comfortable with working on electronics and have advanced soldering/mechanical skills, etc and dont mind investing a chunk of change for LML support, it might be an interesting proposition....
Well, we don't even have the tools here, so there would be not point asking EFILive how it's done. I know it's different to what people are used to and that is what is going to confuse everyone.

[Cougar281]

Somewhat stupid question.... Since the ability to FLASH the LML's ECM is coming (sorta here), and it's an EDC17, is there any possibility EFILive would also be able to FLASH the ECM in a 2010 TDI Jetta, which near as I can tell is also an EDC17 (Just a different shape, it would seem)?

[cindy@efilive]

I highly doubt EFILive wants to open up the can of worms as far as giving away that capability to all EFILive customers as a general "update". I cant even imagine how many threads would result in "wait so how do I solder the jumper wire on the PCB??? Can someone make a DIY for this???" :sneaky: :bangin:

But for those of us who are comfortable with working on electronics and have advanced soldering/mechanical skills, etc and dont mind investing a chunk of change for LML support, it might be an interesting proposition....

ben

As we said on facebook Ben, customers can choose what they want to do, we don't control any barriers for people entering the LML market. What does control the market is the time and effort required, along with the financial investment weighed up against the potential return. For many individuals, a $10K outlay, plus 100's of hours trying to find mapping information along with testing is a barrier when compared to purchasing a pre-programmed AutoCal from a tuner who has done the hard yards.

Obviously those scales tip enormously if mapping support is offered, but then what do you think the most common mapping question would be? I'd care to guess it would be functions that by choice we would not offer anyway....

Cheers
Cindy

[DURAtotheMAX]

Somewhat stupid question.... Since the ability to FLASH the LML's ECM is coming (sorta here), and it's an EDC17, is there any possibility EFILive would also be able to FLASH the ECM in a 2010 TDI Jetta, which near as I can tell is also an EDC17 (Just a different shape, it would seem)?

there are different variations of the EDC17/tri-core. The LML is an EDC17-CP18. I dont know what the 2.0 CR VW TDI's are. But the injection system looks to be identical to an LML. The injection pump looks just like a CP4.2, except with 1 "cylinder" cut off.

[GMPX]

As was the case with the LBZ/LMM EDC16's, they are used on many Euro cars too, but in manufacturer specific configurations so what works on one doesn't necessarily mean it's work on any version. For example, the EDC16 on the Dodge Sprinters is not the same as the Duramax, quite different in many respects, certainly in the CAN communications area.
The EDC17 is no different, whilst we can currently still tune the LML version, a number of Euro cars are blocked totally (not even pulling the ECM apart is an option), so for your specific example of the VW, I don't know, it could be open or totally closed off. I am pretty sure it's only the very latest BMW EDC17's that are untunable by any means and as far as I know the VW's, Audi and BMW EDC17's cannot be flashed via the OBD2 port by any tools due to RSA protection (there might be model specific exceptions to that rule), they all require pulling apart and forcing the ECM in to factory boot mode for reading and flashing.

Before anyone asks, this definitely puts the A50 back on the development map.

[vortecfcar]

The vw TDI in the Jetta is an EDC17 CP 14 (if memory serves). It is tuneable and of course would be a welcome addition to flash support if Ross/Paul wanted to mess with it or have seed/key info on it. I have files and some mapping done for it. /End tangent

Nick

[GMPX]

Ok, to put it in perspective, this is the method required to currently read and flash the EDC17 with the Euro tools, this is still required to read the ECM, but now that we have introduced flashing support it means this madness is not needed each time the tune needs to be updated. So although the flashing is only one small part of the equation, you can see why it was pretty important to offer OBD2 flashing support to be able to provide tunes to a mass market. Picture doing this on a $600 LML ECM each time you wanted to tune it. The ECM in the video is from a VW or something like that, but the process is the same for the LML, pretty scary hey.

I don't know if this is the exact process both tuners offering LML tuning use to get the files, it was just a random video I found on YouTube, other competing products would work the same.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuQ8GZc3HE0

[THEFERMANATOR]

I know that one of the guys from H&S hinted that they were using an intercept type of box to intercept the flash instead of opening the ECM. So they would flash it with a TECH 2 or simliar, and put a box inline to intercept the flash to obtain the tune file. Sound like a HUGE grey area to me for a way to obtain the tune file.

[GMPX]

^^ lol

[GMPX]

Our first release will not include any mapping, and EFILive will not offer any map finding services, however we 'may' consider offering basic mapping support for the LML in the future.
People please stop sending me PM's and Emails asking for advice on locating maps and how DTC's work, how to pull apart the ECM, how does JTAG work, blah, blah, three strikes and you get on my spam list, either way, I'm not even going to respond.

[duramaximizer]

Why does how you acquire the file matter? It was bought and paid for by the end user(s) to do with as they wished.
1+1+1+1=4
2+2=4
2x2=4
2^2=4
How you group or arrange the 4 items, everyone still ends up with the same thing in the end.

The data doesn't change regardless of how it was acquired. Everyone beats around the bush. I buy a vehicle to do with as I wish, they (the government)are setting out to make enthusiasts a bunch of criminals.

[cindy@efilive]

The security system put in place on the factory ECM prevents EFILive from generating a read. The data needs to be acquired from somewhere...just not here.

Cheers
Cindy

[THEFERMANATOR]

Why does how you acquire the file matter? It was bought and paid for by the end user(s) to do with as they wished.
1+1+1+1=4
2+2=4
2x2=4
2^2=4
How you group or arrange the 4 items, everyone still ends up with the same thing in the end.

The data doesn't change regardless of how it was acquired. Everyone beats around the bush. I buy a vehicle to do with as I wish, they (the government)are setting out to make enthusiasts a bunch of criminals.

You need to voice your displeasure with GM(and the gubment) over this matter. EFILIVE has given shops who are willing to spend the upfront capitol and time to develop there own maps a way to tune them, so we should be happy there is at least something available.

[cindy@efilive]

EFILive in conjunction with Duramax-tuner.com has today released the first pictures of our LML tuning software http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=23006

Cheers
Cindy