Looking for mild heads/cam base tune 1999 LS1

[krwyellowz28]

I just finished the wrenching side of swapping a 1999 LS1/4L60e into my 1970 GTO Judge, and now I'm trying to sort out the tuning. Other than some Power Commander 3 experience on crotch rockets years ago and on our FSAE formula car, I am a complete noob to tuning and especially EFI Live. I hate asking for any more than advice and direction, but I am reading myself in circles trying to just understand how to get to the point where I can at least drive the car and log some data.

From what i've gathered, I've got terrible timing jumping into the EFI Live scene... custom tune libraries have been shut down, bouncing b/w V7 and V8 was confusing at first, and the TAQuickness plug n play cable to make my LM-2 work with the V2 is no longer offered. :crash:

Here's what I'm working with:
- EFI Live V2 Scan and Tune
- Innovate LM-2 with a serial cable I made to plug n play with the V2.
- Going speed density right off the bat per the recommendation of several friends with experience.

Drivetrain:
- Stock bottom end 1999 LS1
- 799 heads with a home port/polish, 3 angle valve job, and .600" 918 springs
- heads decked .005" to true them up, and .040" MLS head gaskets (instead of the stock .052")
- Comp 222/224 .556/.568 on 112 cam
- Typhoon 85mm intake and throttle body.
- Stock 1999 26 lb/hr @ 58 psi injectors with billet rails
- Long tube headers and 2.5" duals w/X-pipe
- 4L60 has been beefed up and running a Yank SS3600

I realize the cam is very mismatched for the rest of the setup... I spec'd and bought it when the plan was to do a cam only LS1 w/stock intake, TB, heads, and smaller or stock stall, but as you can see the plans changed. I'm considering a cam upgrade at the end of the year somewhere between a 228R and a TSP V2. With the entire combination I'm really leaning towards the bigger end to make use of these heads.

I am getting familiar with the software, and already did a full flash of the stock 1999 PCM to a hybrid stock 1999/2002 12212156 OS with all the unnecessary junk turned off, and plan to upgrade to the COS5 02020002 operating system. Right now I'm just looking for a tune that will get the car in the ball park and driveable.

Wow, that was long winded, but I appreciate any help.

[joecar]

Hi krw,

You can make/adapt a serial comms cable... for the simplest/cheapest solution see post #3 here: serial-port-cable-that-goes-to-v2 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?9340-serial-port-cable-that-goes-to-v2)

[ScarabEpic22]

Glad to see you made it over from LS1Tech.

Look at the Calc.VET tutorial, once you get your WBO2 setup you can dial your MAF/VE tables in quickly. Calc.VET Correcting MAF and calculating VE (in-single-log) (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-Calc-VET-correcting-MAF-and-calculating-VE-(in-single-log))

In regards to your 85mm tb, if you use a LS7 MAF (blade-style), it can be mounted in whatever diameter pipe you want. Mine, for example, is mounted in my 4" intake for my TBSS. Since you already ditched it, you can get it tuned just fine SD, but be warned you might have some weird issues if the temp and/or altitude varies a lot from where you tuned it.

[krwyellowz28]

joecar: I used that thread and one other to get the wiring schematic to make my own harness out of a new Innovate LM-2 cable and then cut the end off and replace with the RJ-12 plug pigtail. It makes sense in my head, but I haven't tried it yet.

Scarab: I hadn't considered the blade style MAF... I'll look into that more if I have to go back to MAF. For the time being I want to get the car running as is MAFless. I re-read the calc.VET tutorial again last night, and its making more sense every time I go over it. I'll be honest, the first time I read over it, I didn't absorb much because of the MAF references, and I assumed the process wasn't applicable for going SD. Is that technique still applicable for SD and VE tables if I ignore the MAF portions?

The best explination I've been able to find for a brand new EFI Live user like myself is from SSpdDmon:


First, some helpful tips since you sound new to this: Open the tuning tool and hit Alt+Enter. Change the fueling display values to AFR. That way, you don't have to worry about dealing with EQ or Lambda. Then, download your tune out of your car. If it's not a stock tune, download a copy of a stock tune for your car from www.holdencrazy.com (http://www.holdencrazy.com) for reference. You can compare your current tune with another tune (e.g. the stock one) by hitting Ctrl+F11 as long as they have the same operating system. Ctrl+4 will show you the current file and Ctrl+5 will show you the alternate/comparison file.

You force your car into open loop by setting the closed loop temp enable table to its maximum across the board. This disables STFTs and closed loop. You should also turn off LTFTs and DFCO (set temp enable to it's max). Set your Commanded Fueling in Open Loop table to a 14.63 AFR from 158*F on up and set your PE table appropriately (e.g. a 12.5:1 AFR is a good target for NA cars). You might want to drop the PE TPS enable table a little too.

Now you're in open loop. The MAF is still active and influencing fueling. If you want to go to speed density, you need to disable the MAF under Engine Diagnostics. Set the high fail frequency to 1 and the fail limit to 1 (C2901 and C2903). This will trigger an SES light. You can turn that off in the first few rows of the DTC MIL section. In speed density, the timing scaler reverts the PCM to the low octane timing table. You need to copy the values in the high octane table to the low octane table.

Now, you're in open loop speed density (no MAF). Depending on how heavily modified your car is, you want to go to the VE table and change a few cells. If you're just a bolt-ons car, you should probably increase the VE 5% from 40~105kPa and 2000~8000 rpms. That'll help keep you from running too lean the first time around. Other setups will require different changes (e.g. cammed cars need to remove fuel from the stock VE below 1600rpms in order to idle....however, they need more than 5% above 2400rpms).

Those are the firsts step in getting there. I just realized all of this is in the tutorial along with the remaining steps. So, check that out... ;)

What other tips do you have like in the last paragraph? I didn't clearly mention this in my original post, but the car will barely even idle as it sits now, and there's no way I can drive it. Barely touching the throttle makes it cough and want to die.

[joecar]

Also, does the LM-2 have a SERIAL IN input...? if so it may require a terminator (would have come with).

[joecar]

You will need to so some idle tuning...

then you will have to get your VE and MAF tuning done;

then you will have to revisit idle.


More info:


Idle Tuning
showthread.php?4661-Idle-Tuning-Helpful-Info-Inside (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?4661-Idle-Tuning-Helpful-Info-Inside)
showthread.php?14439-Idle-Tips-amp-Tricks (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14439-Idle-Tips-amp-Tricks)
showthread.php?5866-Auto-VE-questions (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?5866-Auto-VE-questions)
showthread.php?14153-scan-tool-wont-log-rafig-or-rafpn (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14153-scan-tool-wont-log-rafig-or-rafpn)
showthread.php?14435-Need-help-Can-Start-Car-but-dies-when-I-give-it-any-throttle-before-going-to-CL (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14435-Need-help-Can-Start-Car-but-dies-when-I-give-it-any-throttle-before-going-to-CL&p=129519&viewfull=1#post129519)
showthread.php?7011-ETC-cars-and-IAC-parameters (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?7011-ETC-cars-and-IAC-parameters&p=61455&viewfull=1#post61455)
showthread.php?14544-Working-on-my-idle-tune (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14544-Working-on-my-idle-tune)
showthread.php?14794-Help-with-open-loop-%28cold-start%29-tuning (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14794-Help-with-open-loop-%28cold-start%29-tuning&p=133446#post133446)
showthread.php?149-Idle-%28Transition%29-Tuning (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?149-Idle-%28Transition%29-Tuning)
Stumble-3-seconds-after-cold-start&p=178921#post178921 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14144-Stumble-3-seconds-after-cold-start&p=178921#post178921)

More Idle Tuning
showthread.php?t=149 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=149)
showthread.php?t=5866 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=5866&highlight=RAFIG)
showthread.php?p=86553 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?p=86553) post #17
showthread.php?t=2630 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=2630)
showthread.php?t=473 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=473)

Throttle Cracker/Follower
showthread.php?t=3568 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=3568)
showthread.php?t=4081 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=4081)
showthread.php?t=5406 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=5406)
showthread.php?t=5940 (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?t=5940)

[joecar]

Calc.VET does two things simultaneously:
- corrects MAF table based on LTFT (CL) and wideband (non-CL),
- calculated a new VE table from the corrected MAF table.

[joecar]

Also note the relationship between the following:
- AutoMAF is a subset of Calc.VET,
- AutoVE is a subset of Calc.MAFT.


See post #29 here: Summary-Notes (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14188-Summary-Notes)

[joecar]

Calc.VET is very easy to do, so it would be good to try out first.

[krwyellowz28]

Hmm, I thought I posted back this morning... I must not have hit the "post reply". Anyway, the cable is an RJ-12 pigtail spliced to the Innovate serial cable, and I used that thread and one other to get the correct pin-out. The LM-2 does have a Serial In, but going off other posts and what TAQuickness used to sell, it looks like I should be ok with just my cable.

Scarab, I hadn't considered the blade MAF, so that may be an option if I go the MAF route, but for now I'd like to try sticking with SD. I read the calc.VET tutorial about 2 weeks ago, but honestly didn't absorb much b/c of all the MAF information, and I assumed it wouldn't apply to SD tuning. I re-read it again last night (made a lot more sense this time), but for my scenario do I just ignore the MAF portions?

I might now have been clear about the current state of the car in my first post, but it'll barely idle. I think it will idle well enough to get up to temp, but I haven't let it blubber for that long yet. It wants to die as soon as i touch the throttle. One of the most helpful posts I've read so far is from SSpdDmon several years ago:


First, some helpful tips since you sound new to this: Open the tuning tool and hit Alt+Enter. Change the fueling display values to AFR. That way, you don't have to worry about dealing with EQ or Lambda. Then, download your tune out of your car. If it's not a stock tune, download a copy of a stock tune for your car from www.holdencrazy.com (http://www.holdencrazy.com) for reference. You can compare your current tune with another tune (e.g. the stock one) by hitting Ctrl+F11 as long as they have the same operating system. Ctrl+4 will show you the current file and Ctrl+5 will show you the alternate/comparison file.

You force your car into open loop by setting the closed loop temp enable table to its maximum across the board. This disables STFTs and closed loop. You should also turn off LTFTs and DFCO (set temp enable to it's max). Set your Commanded Fueling in Open Loop table to a 14.63 AFR from 158*F on up and set your PE table appropriately (e.g. a 12.5:1 AFR is a good target for NA cars). You might want to drop the PE TPS enable table a little too.

Now you're in open loop. The MAF is still active and influencing fueling. If you want to go to speed density, you need to disable the MAF under Engine Diagnostics. Set the high fail frequency to 1 and the fail limit to 1 (C2901 and C2903). This will trigger an SES light. You can turn that off in the first few rows of the DTC MIL section. In speed density, the timing scaler reverts the PCM to the low octane timing table. You need to copy the values in the high octane table to the low octane table.

Now, you're in open loop speed density (no MAF). Depending on how heavily modified your car is, you want to go to the VE table and change a few cells. If you're just a bolt-ons car, you should probably increase the VE 5% from 40~105kPa and 2000~8000 rpms. That'll help keep you from running too lean the first time around. Other setups will require different changes (e.g. cammed cars need to remove fuel from the stock VE below 1600rpms in order to idle....however, they need more than 5% above 2400rpms).

Those are the firsts step in getting there. I just realized all of this is in the tutorial along with the remaining steps. So, check that out... ;)

Are there any other generic tips/tricks like in his last paragraph that I can change manually to get it to idle better so it will at least stay running in gear? Thanks for the replies... I've got plenty to mess with tonight!

Kyle

[krwyellowz28]

Sorry for the long reply time. I've tried replying twice earlier today and they don't show up for some reason.

Joe: My cable is the Innovate serial input cable spliced with the V2 serial cable pig tail based off info from that thread and one other.

Scarab: I hadn't considered the blade MAF. I'll keep that in mind if I decide to go back to MAF, but for now I would like to tune in SD if I can.

I read the calc.VET tutorial a couple weeks ago and honestly I didn't retain much. I re-read it again last night and its making more sense, but does it still apply for me if I am going with SD? Can I still do the calc.VET and just ignore the MAF portions, or will that be pointless?


Calc.VET does two things simultaneously:
- corrects MAF table based on LTFT (CL) and wideband (non-CL),
- calculated a new VE table from the corrected MAF table.

One of the clearest posts I've seen so far is from SSpdDmon a few years ago:

First, some helpful tips since you sound new to this: Open the tuning tool and hit Alt+Enter. Change the fueling display values to AFR. That way, you don't have to worry about dealing with EQ or Lambda. Then, download your tune out of your car. If it's not a stock tune, download a copy of a stock tune for your car from www.holdencrazy.com (http://www.holdencrazy.com) for reference. You can compare your current tune with another tune (e.g. the stock one) by hitting Ctrl+F11 as long as they have the same operating system. Ctrl+4 will show you the current file and Ctrl+5 will show you the alternate/comparison file.

You force your car into open loop by setting the closed loop temp enable table to its maximum across the board. This disables STFTs and closed loop. You should also turn off LTFTs and DFCO (set temp enable to it's max). Set your Commanded Fueling in Open Loop table to a 14.63 AFR from 158*F on up and set your PE table appropriately (e.g. a 12.5:1 AFR is a good target for NA cars). You might want to drop the PE TPS enable table a little too.

Now you're in open loop. The MAF is still active and influencing fueling. If you want to go to speed density, you need to disable the MAF under Engine Diagnostics. Set the high fail frequency to 1 and the fail limit to 1 (C2901 and C2903). This will trigger an SES light. You can turn that off in the first few rows of the DTC MIL section. In speed density, the timing scaler reverts the PCM to the low octane timing table. You need to copy the values in the high octane table to the low octane table.

Now, you're in open loop speed density (no MAF). Depending on how heavily modified your car is, you want to go to the VE table and change a few cells. If you're just a bolt-ons car, you should probably increase the VE 5% from 40~105kPa and 2000~8000 rpms. That'll help keep you from running too lean the first time around. Other setups will require different changes (e.g. cammed cars need to remove fuel from the stock VE below 1600rpms in order to idle....however, they need more than 5% above 2400rpms).

Those are the firsts step in getting there. I just realized all of this is in the tutorial along with the remaining steps. So, check that out... ;)

Are there any more generic tips or tricks that will help me get this thing to at least idle? I didn't really clearly say, but right now the car will barely stay running. I haven't let it blubber long enough to get up past 120*. I just want to get it to a point that I can put it in gear and it won't die. :/

[joecar]

If it has a SERIAL IN then it will need the terminator plug.

[joecar]

The forum was marking your posts "Moderated" for some reason, I just marked them Approved.

[joecar]

I've tried replying twice earlier today and they don't show up for some reason, but I'll try again.

I would like to try tuning in SD for now since I depinned my harness for the MAF. Can I still do the calc.VET and just ignore the MAF portions, or will that be pointless?Calc.VET performs correction on the MAF... so without a MAF you can't do this...

so you want to do Calc.MAFT and ignore the MAF table calculation (i.e. AutoVE, which is a subset of Calc.MAFT).

[joecar]

Calc.MAFT does two things simultaneously:
- corrects VE table based on LTFT (CL) and wideband (non-CL),
- calculates a new MAF table from the corrected VE table.

[joecar]

AutoVE is same as Calc.MAFT with the following differences:
- uses wideband everywhere,
- does not calculate a new MAF table.

[DrkPhx]

That's a very mild setup that personally I think you still should use the MAF; but that's my opinion. I don't see it mentioned; but the most important part about tuning is actually data logging. The EFILive data logger is an awesome tool that can help point you in the right direction once you understand how to take advantage of it features like maps, calc pids, runway highlighting and the DVT controls. The DVT controls allow you to make real-time adjustments (not permanent) to help pinpoint troublesome areas.

The SSpeedemon idle thread has some very good tips to help; read it thoroughly to get a good understanding of what needs to be done. Generally a few issues cause idle swings with larger than stock cams; 1) fuel (usually too much), leaner is better for idle, 2) IAC (not enough idle airflow), 3) spark advance (needs to stable) and 4) stock desired idle rpms is usually too low for a larger cam. You can use the individual DVT controls for each of these area (or a combination of them) to help find the best idle rpm.

[krwyellowz28]

If it has a SERIAL IN then it will need the terminator plug.
I think you are right for the LC1, but I'm 99% sure all I need is the OUT cable for my LM2. I basically copied the TAQ cable that everyone loved, but is no longer available for sale.


Calc.MAFT does two things simultaneously:
- corrects VE table based on LTFT (CL) and wideband (non-CL),
- calculates a new MAF table from the corrected VE table.

AutoVE is same as Calc.MAFT with the following differences:
- uses wideband everywhere,
- does not calculate anew MAF table.

Once I get the serial wbO2 working with the V2, should I focus on just doing autoVE since I'm trying to stick with speed density?


That's a very mild setup that personally I think you still should use the MAF; but that's my opinion. I don't see it mentioned; but the most important part about tuning is actually data logging. The EFILive data logger is an awesome tool that can help point you in the right direction once you understand how to take advantage of it features like maps, calc pids, runway highlighting and the DVT controls. The DVT controls allow you to make real-time adjustments (not permanent) to help pinpoint troublesome areas.

The SSpeedemon idle thread has some very good tips to help; read it thoroughly to get a good understanding of what needs to be done. Generally a few issues cause idle swings with larger than stock cams; 1) fuel (usually too much), leaner is better for idle, 2) IAC (not enough idle airflow), 3) spark advance (needs to stable) and 4) stock desired idle rpms is usually too low for a larger cam. You can use the individual DVT controls for each of these area (or a combination of them) to help find the best idle rpm.

The more I mess with it, the more I'm leaning towards MAF just for tuning simplicity sake. I might even just re-pin my PCM and temporarily wire it up outside of the main harness. However, I do want to try to make SD work a little bit longer. I have not logged any data yet simply because the car won't stay running.

I somehow missed SSpdDmon's idle post... that's a great write up. I went through it last night and modified a tune based on his idle thread and the post I quoted to force the car into OLSD. I flashed the car last night without much improvement. The car still barely idles, it doesn't idle smoothly at all, and it still wants to fall on its face when the throttle is open past 2%. I've read almost all of the links Joe posted, but I'll go over them again today and I'm sure they'll make more sense.

I'm supposed to drive the car to Automotion in Wisconsin in 2 weeks, and I haven't even been able to put the car in gear... I feel like I'm back in my Controls Systems class understanding this stuff half as fast as I need to.

For clarification here's my progression in the last week up to last night:
- Deleted the VATS, AIR, EGR, etc out of the stock 1999 Z28 auto tune and turned the key. It ran, but would barely idle
- Hybrid 1999/2002 1221256 OS that Joe posted a while back in another thread. I flashed that tune with the VATS, AIR, EGR, etc deleted out and the car would eventually idle, but very low RPM and not smooth at all.
- Tried bumping up the target idle speed, reflashed, and no improvement.
- Followed SSpdDmon's idle and OLSD posts, flashed, and still no improvement... if anything it got worse and starts harder.

Thanks again for the help... this is driving me nuts right now.

[joecar]

...

Once I get the serial wbO2 working with the V2, should I focus on just doing autoVE since I'm trying to stick with speed density?

...
I would suggest doing Calc.MAFT with CL/LTFT/STFT/SOL disabled (i.e. using a wideband everywhere) and simply ignore the MAF calculations portion...

this amounts to doing AutoVE but using CALC.WO2BEN and CALC.DAT defined in the Calc.MAFT thread.

[krwyellowz28]

Great, thanks... I know what I'm working on tonight! :thumb_yello:

[bimbleuk]

I'm following a similar path to you but I was also very new to tuning in general and EFI Live. So I've left my LS1 almost standard apart from the breathing is improved via an OTR filter and full exhaust system, no cats, Edelbrock 80mm TB plus an LS2 85mm MAF. I have a 222/224 112 cam kit waiting after I've gained some experience.

I've used the "LS1-M6 Base Tune.tun" file attached to the top of the thread below. Not a custom OS (you could copy the values over to a custom OS where applicable) but it contains most of the recommended calibrations in various tutorials on here. I then modified it a bit using the MAF values from an '02 Corvette LS6 tune (tunefiledepot.com) for example as they have an 85mm MAF similar to mine. That'll only get you started as any mods will change quite a few of the calibration tables.

http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14439-Idle-Tips-amp-Tricks

I'm using an MTX-L Innovate gauge/WBO2 not too dissimilar to the LM2 and have managed 3 good logging runs. The MAF table changed a lot after the first log using the CALC.VET method but the subsequent two runs have been in single percent changes. The VE table changes quite a bit also but as it's being created using CALC.VET it isn't surprising. Anyway I'm using the MAF to start as it's a very quick tool to get a useable VE table created which you could then use for your SD tuning. Though of course removing the MAF physically will then change your tune :) but it should be a lot closer by then.

[joecar]

CALC.VET is sensative to CALC.DAT correctly modelling the dynamic air temperature.

[joecar]

The whole idea behind Calc.VET and Calc.MAFT was to get a reasonably good tune very quickly with minimal tune setup.