setting B3618 PE AFR with cam and supporting mods

[myws6formula]

Ive been doing some searching on two very important tables (spark and PE fueling)

I do not see much info recommendations on tuning or setting these up. about the most i see even with Google searching is some tuners or experienced people with a dyno will briefly touch on this as if its a super top secret formula only letting out a ideal max spark or AFR.... Don't get me wrong I know not every person wants to give out info they make a living on but for the rest of us why not? isn't this why we buy the tuning programs? (to make a better tune and understand how and why changes are made)


With that said and since modified tunes are not around to dissect and note proven changes maybe this thread can spark some interest or even some knowledge on how a guy at home with no dyno can properly figure out how to make the PE scale and to avoid leaving a good deal of HP on the table or worse run it too lean.

I have a highly recommended book on tuning that I was reading off and on for some time now and from what I'm understanding on a NA ls1 max power would be achieved with a Lambda of 0.91 ( 13.17:1 ) but this could leave you on the edge of shortening the engine life. Also in the book they chose run between 0.82-0.86 Lambda to allow a safe WOT tune. In the example they had stepped the AFR at different RPMs.

My question is how do you know where to make these steps? I can only guess you need a dyno and significant experience to know where the steps are made.


So this leaves me here wondering what I should do short of having this taken to a "Tuner" which was what I thought I could avoid.

[bimbleuk]

What I did very recently was to get my base maps very close. Make sure the PE table set safely with say at least EQ set to 1.18 across the RPM range and then log a couple of 100% throttle runs in 3rd and 4th gear. Being cautious by keeping an eye on the wide band gauge (hopefully you have one!) for the first couple of runs and stop if the AFR is rising above 13:1.

By looking back at the log, monitoring AFR & RPM (and KR) I could see where the AFR was lean in the RPM range. I adjusted the PE table to try to get a fairly flat AFR across the RPM when doing the 3rd & 4th gear runs again. I was aiming for an AFR of between 12.5 - 12.8. Doing that I only saw a 0.4 KR on a couple of occasions myself and increased PE at those places.

I don't have my tablet with me curently I can't post the values but it basically stayed at 1.18 EQ then stepped up to 1.19 then 1.20 as RPM went up.

I was using the spark table from "LS1-M6 Base Tune.tun" posted on the forum as it appeared to have sensible spark values. The one thing I changed though before making the runs was to reduce the spark from 27 down to 24 at around 4000 RPM and stepped that back up to 27 as RPM increased to 6200 RPM.

That was purely based on having read that the LS engines work with 24 at peak torque and 27 at pek RPM just as a starting guide.

15162

[joecar]

Normally Aspirated:

Set PE to whatever it takes to avoid going lean at load during tuning (without being so rich that you're washing cylinder wall oil into the crankcase)...

[ do not just set PE to Lambda 0.91 without testing as this may increase combustion chamber temps and may allow detonation/knock ]

then if you're driving on the street set it to Lambda 0.86 (12.6 AFR) which is suitable for good peak torque and cooling the combustion cambers (if your airmass model is correct);

then if you have access to a dyno, find out what Lambda and spark advance produces the best peak torque...and then lean it a little as you go from peak torque to peak power to see if you can improve on power (but stay on the richer side of power-vs-lambda, and avoid detonation/knock at all costs)...

this "tuned" PE would be suitable for drag racing (short intense load), but would not be suitable for road racing (long intense load) where you want the richer peak torque lambda thru-out to provide combustion chamber cooling.

[myws6formula]

thanks guys, also how consistant / accurate is the hp pid? saying its 4th gear pulls in a 6spd on the same stretch of road. not talking about how much hp im making but more of a improvement monitor

[bimbleuk]

HPTuner Experiments (http://redhardsupra.blogspot.co.uk/)

Check this link and setup the "Street Dyno" log and I think you'll find that a better way to compare mods on the road.

[joecar]

thanks guys, also how consistant / accurate is the hp pid? saying its 4th gear pulls in a 6spd on the same stretch of road. not talking about how much hp im making but more of a improvement monitorThe FWHP pid is a guestimate by the PCM based on factory stock tables.

The RWHP pid is limited due to insufficient sampling rate, but can yield interesting results if used vary carefully in controlled driving/road conditions (but will not match dyno results).

[BLK02WS6]

An experienced tuner can get a good safe street tune based on experience - but the only right way to correctly optimize the tune througout the RPM range is on a dyno. I have tuned hundreds of LS engines, and I could give you a really good starting point based on that experience, but the only way I could find out what your particular setup wants for fueling and spark would be to put it on a dyno. Starting off with a good safe starting point, you would want to make small changes in fueling and spark (only one at a time) and see what effect it has on torque and power. Also, keep in mind, all of this discussion is assuming you already have the actual AFR corrected to the targeted AFR by tuning the VE and MAF tables in using a wideband... If you want to post up your tune, I'm sure some of us can make some recommendations to help you get going.

[myws6formula]

that would be great. I'm tuning with a wideband and its pretty close right now but I want to hit some more cells before I blend it. same with my MAF table

[joecar]

+1 post tune/logs.

[myws6formula]

1525815259


I was having issues with my wideband and found the issue but now at WOT i notice the fuel ratio commanded vs what the WB is reporting seems off. the WB seems to toggle rich lean at WOT If it was fuel pressure I wouldn't think i would see such a fast change

[maudyZ28]

Interesting as you have LS6 heads I read an article doing dyno testing, the 2 quench zone make for a faster burn requiring less timing for same power. They ran 22-28 deg of timing with same fueling and saw only an increase of power by 5 hp at 24* at WOT (6000 rpm).

I've dropped mine down from aggressive 28* at WOT with 12.6 fueling to 22* on 12.9-13.0 for the 1/4 mile and I run with no knock etc to test the tune this year. Cant tell any different when driving and 1/4 miles are same times if not better MPH (street tyres stil spinning on line).

[myws6formula]

I'm curious how your wot fueling looks on the WB, I'm all ears on the timing as well and will def give it a try

[BLK02WS6]

Looking at the log: Your wideband is definitely messing up - should not be oscillating like that! You may have a ground issue... Need to figure that out first off. Also, why didn't you log spark advance? you should always log that... You are getting some knock when you went WOT. Your LTFTs are adding fuel at WOT too.

Looking at the tune: Your VE table is a mess - spikes and dips all over the place. Your MAF table is a mess too - not smooth at all. I would set the PE up a little differently than you have it. Where did you get the data on the injectors? Your timing table is pretty good, but I would lower the WOT areas down a couple degrees until you put it on the dyno and see what it wants (because you have LS6 heads).

I know I threw a bunch of stuff out there - and please know that I'm not trying to be a jerk! Are you in progress on the VE and MAF? You have to do a whole lot more smoothing on those tables when you make changes...

I can make some changes to the tune for you and post it back up if you want me too - let me know. Can you try to figure out the wideband problem? that has to be right before you go on...

[myws6formula]

I'm more than happy to take the advise. and if you want to make some tweeks it would be great.

the WB has me confused and im hoping its a ground issue and isn't toast. it stopped working it just reported a steady reading no matter what. I was able to figure out the plug to the V1 screw backed out on the one terminals. (it says in the instructions not to disconnect while in use???) it also set a code 8 for the heater control but after fixing the connection it worked and I performed a fresh air cal to make sure the sensor was in check but now its reporting oddly.

I grabbed the injector data from the ASA tune

[myws6formula]

went from my lc1 ground to the cig ground and was basically nothing and would toggle at 00.0 - 00.1 ohms and going to battery neg does the same. since the alt is low and semi hard to reach I ran a AC ripple test at the battery and im only getting 0.17v some 0.20v

do you think the WB sensor is bad? or do you think the WB controller is done?

[maudyZ28]

BLK02WS6 - I've looked over the tune before and the injector data etc are all correct from the ASA tune that run the 'big white' grand prix injectors - I run the same - they are 36 lb/hr but thats NOT at 58 psi - the ASA tune is correct - i've previously posted and calculated injector flows multiple ways, tables and tunes and that is what they report. With regards to the VE, it is spiky but as myws6formula posted in another thread, this was after a WB tune so the dipped cells are the ones that were hit when driving and the high ones were not. I had previously reported that the LTFT were NOT dissabled and these NEED to be, in order to tune the VE or the MAF.

myws6formula - go back to the original tune where you had the car running rich before you applied the VE corrections, make sure the WB is functioning correct and do a free air cal with it OUT of the exhaust if you can - or after it has been left overnight, residual fuel left if you do it after driving. Then, from that tune dissable the fuel trims and tune either the MAF or VE table, follow the AUTOVE tutorial, thats all you need. Drive steady and smooth for a while and try hit as many cells - you'll never hit them all, not physically possible.
Next, apple the corrections, as done before (you had done this correct) - This will make the VE or MAF possibly a little spiky, but it should NOT be ittatic with massive highs and lows, each cell that is corrected should have a reasonable smooth transition into the other cells you;ve hit. It wont smoothly match the cell you DIDNT hit. There are 2 ways to go from here.

1) as BLK02WS6 - you can smooth the cells - (various ways to do) - I personally do this manually - I make a table with the BEN correction factors and in the cells I didnt hit I interpolate the solutions between the cells I did hit - you can you the smooth function in EFIlive but sometimes it changes the cells you have corrected, so effectively making them wrong again. As for the MAF I believe this should be more smooth as it simply measures the air flow increase and should increase smoothly

2) Although the VE or MAF doesnt look nice, if the cells you have hit are smooth with other cells you hit (as said above), and you have tried your very best to hit as many as possible, then leave the VE as you will NEVER hit the other cells when driving so these high spots will never actually be used when driving.

I personally did a massive tune and interpolated all the solutions so they were smooth and the car ran constant 14.8 on the WB with a +/-0.1 fluctuation in normal drivng. The WB was strong and reported 12.8 all the way up until 6000 rpm where it richened upto 12.2 as I didnt originally tune this high as I had a new 2nd hand auto box and didnt tune past 6k but after 6 months I took it to 6500 rpm. Now it is corrected I run 12.8 accross the board.

I changed the injectors to the ASA ones and did a retune to check and the VE shifted slightly, although it shouldn't be it did, only a few %. So I ONLY retuned the cells that I hit at the strip and normal driving as they are only a few % out and my VE is now NOT perfectly smooth aws it was before, but the WB holds steady at 15.1 now (changed in my tune to this AFR for economy) and 13.0 in 1/4 mile.

[myws6formula]

sounds good I will go back to the original starting point. sounds like you think the WB is fine but just do another fresh air to make sure? should I adjust the timing down while im at it?

thanks for the help guys.

[myws6formula]

this is the revised PID I wanted to use with CalcVET 15276



also I see you say to do autove I was doing the CalcVET

[maudyZ28]

this is the revised PID I wanted to use with CalcVET 15276



also I see you say to do autove I was doing the CalcVET



i'll have a look and see when i'm on my tuning laptop.

I personally just do autoVE as I have a wide band and dont need the MAF calibrating as I run OLSD. (open loop speed density). I havent looked into the calcVET and this is why your tune may differ. As far as my bit of understanding goes, it uses LTFT or similar for low rpm and low map to calc the VE and then uses only the WB for the high rpm and WOT situations? But dont quote me on this. The AutoVE tutorial is good that it tells you all the PIDs to use and the step by step tune changes. I think the calcVET has this too but i've not personally looked at it.

[joecar]

this is the revised PID I wanted to use with CalcVET 15276



also I see you say to do autove I was doing the CalcVETDo Calc.VET initially to get VE and MAF tables close... and then do AutoVE if necessary.

From your pid list remove GM.CYLAIR_DMA and add HO2S11/HO2S21 (the front NBO2 voltages)...

make sure to keep pid channel count no bigger than 24 channels (see bottom of PIDs tab in scantool).


Post your calc_pids.txt file.

[joecar]

Note that AutoVE is a special case of the Calc.MAFT procedure...

I say this because if when you're finished tuning you intend to run the MAF, you will need both MAF and VE to have been corrected.

[joecar]

I'm catching up on threads, I'll have more comments later...

[myws6formula]

Post your calc_pids.txt file.


I'm not sure I follow but perhaps you are asking for this? 15284

[myws6formula]

Do Calc.VET initially to get VE and MAF tables close... and then do AutoVE if necessary.

From your pid list remove GM.CYLAIR_DMA and add HO2S11/HO2S21 (the front NBO2 voltages)...

make sure to keep pid channel count no bigger than 24 channels (see bottom of PIDs tab in scantool).


ok , I set it up like this and that puts me right at 24 pids

under advanced notes I do see talk about disabling DFCO and changing the o2 switch points B4105: O2 Switch-points to 450 Millivolts
Smoother MAF & VE Table

[joecar]

I'm not sure I follow but perhaps you are asking for this? 15284Yes, correct, thanks... I'm looking thru your files in post #10, I'll have some comments later tonite.

[joecar]

ok , I set it up like this and that puts me right at 24 pids

under advanced notes I do see talk about disabling DFCO and changing the o2 switch points B4105: O2 Switch-points to 450 Millivolts
Smoother MAF & VE TableYes, during tuning, disable DFCO to avoid the lean jump on decel, and set B4105 to 450mV in all cells (later GM calibrations do this also).

[myws6formula]

any ideas? I want to get a log done tonight but i want to make sure nothing is out of wack. I checked and I guess I must have changed the o2 and DCFO already

[joecar]

MAF table can't be jagged.

VE table can't have sudden holes (or spikes), but otherwise ripples are ok.

HO/LO spark tables are too close together.

Your wideband fluctuates too much making it useless... try setting it to 1/6th using the LM Programmer software.

[myws6formula]

IM really lost on this.. if I had any hair left it would be pulled out.

I setup the wb as you stated and im not sure what to do with the spark tables? should I just import the ls6 spark maps and copy my low rpm and idle ranges back over it?

I gave up tuning it before and im hoping this time around I can get it done

[BLK02WS6]

Don't get discouraged! We will try to help you - sorry I haven't been on here much to help this week - I have been trying to get this new job and had to get a bunch of things in line for that... plus my wife and I have a 2 year old and 7 month old (keep us very busy)...

What we are saying about the spark tables is just that the low octane is too close to the values of the high octane table (I usually use 4 degrees lower on the low octane). Also, I would pull about 2 degrees out of the high octane in the WOT areas until you get it on a dyno. I'll attach your tune from further back with the spark table recommendations...

[myws6formula]

Thanks I really do appreciate the help you guys give and believe me I understand the busy lives. I'm just completely lost on this, sold my house so I'm in the middle of moving and as a result getting frustrated with the entire build.

[BLK02WS6]

Once you get everything ready, get a log and post it up (along with the tune that produced the log) and we will try to help with it. If you have any more questions on setting up the tune to get your log, let us know...

[myws6formula]

15302

15303

I smoothed the MAF and VE tables then cleared the fuel trims , took a log,

copied and smoothed then did another log after clearing the fuel trims

also did some 100% tps at the end this time. I do see some knock picked up in the lower rpm though

[BLK02WS6]

Let me start off by saying there are many different methods to tuning out there. The way I prefer to do it is to use the BEN to get a correction factor and first tune the VE in open loop speed density (MAF unplugged). Then, once that is right, I plug the MAF back in and use the BEN to get a correction factor for the MAF table. Once both of them are right, I go back to closed loop and see how the LTFTs look and fine tune if needed. Then, when you go to the dyno, it is a matter of finding optimum torque/power by fine tuning fuel with the PE table and spark with the high octane table. All of the correcting of the VE and MAF tables is already done. If you want to do it using my method, I can post you up a tune to load and log... Let me know...

[myws6formula]

Let me start off by saying there are many different methods to tuning out there. The way I prefer to do it is to use the BEN to get a correction factor and first tune the VE in open loop speed density (MAF unplugged). Then, once that is right, I plug the MAF back in and use the BEN to get a correction factor for the MAF table. Once both of them are right, I go back to closed loop and see how the LTFTs look and fine tune if needed. Then, when you go to the dyno, it is a matter of finding optimum torque/power by fine tuning fuel with the PE table and spark with the high octane table. All of the correcting of the VE and MAF tables is already done. If you want to do it using my method, I can post you up a tune to load and log... Let me know...


I'm not a fan of how my car would run with the MAF off and building a table but honestly im at the point where if your willing to do that then lets! Its no fun letting a car sit for so long

mine in a 5 wire so i have to either fail the MAF or depin

[BLK02WS6]

I have to go out for awhile - here is the tune without the MAF failed - so you can either fail it in this tune or un-pin it. I won't be back on until later tonight... I'll check back then.

[myws6formula]

real quick what pid files should i log?

[BLK02WS6]

Sorry, I left before I saw this... You can use the AutoVE pids... Need the wideband and BEN for the wideband for sure...

[myws6formula]

15311


I think I got all the required pids in there

[BLK02WS6]

Here you go - see how this one is. Given how your VE table is laying out, I'm thinking your injector flowrate table may be a little steep. Log this one and see how it does - from there, we can decide whether to change the injector table a bit or not...

[myws6formula]

That concerns me there is a fuel system problem. it has a walbro intank pump but i guess anything is possible.

[BLK02WS6]

No, not necessarily - I noticed that the injector flowrate table slope is kind of steep - that is why I questioned where the data came from in an earlier post. That will effect the shape of the VE table - but it doesn't mean that there is a problem. Go ahead and log the tune I posted...

[myws6formula]

15313


I tried to hit as many as possible , hopefully the throttle was smooth enough for most of it.

[BLK02WS6]

Its coming along - give this one a hit - do a little longer WOT pull this time too.

[Rich Z]

Yes, during tuning, disable DFCO to avoid the lean jump on decel, and set B4105 to 450mV in all cells (later GM calibrations do this also).

Sorry about intruding here, but when tuning the VE table in speed density open loop, should the STFTs be disabled for that?

[BLK02WS6]

Sorry about intruding here, but when tuning the VE table in speed density open loop, should the STFTs be disabled for that?

Yes, you want STFTs and LTFTs diabled.

[myws6formula]

15315


tried some more wot. I hit the limiter once.

and thanks again!

[joecar]

Sorry about intruding here, but when tuning the VE table in speed density open loop, should the STFTs be disabled for that?Yes...

disable all sources of trimming/correcting: CL, LTFT, STFT, SOL.

also disable the other source of cylinder air: MAF.

[BLK02WS6]

Go ahead and hook the MAF back up and load this tune. Add MAF frequency to the pids for logging. Don't hit it too hard this time at WOT - just one quick pull up to 6000 rpm to see where it is.

[myws6formula]

I will give it a try tomorrow night. do you want a full log or just the run to 6k

[BLK02WS6]

You can do a little driving and a pull to 6k. Keep an eye on the wideband - if it goes real lean anywhere, stop and send me the log...

[myws6formula]

15323

I was warming up the car and noticed as it got warmer it started reading very lean so i started to record, raised the idle slightly and it went a little richer but not as much as I was hoping so I pulled it back in and shut it off

[BLK02WS6]

Wasn't sure which MAF you had - this one should help. If it is lean on idle again, go ahead and try moving the car a bit and see what it does.

[myws6formula]

I guess I dont have that listed below.. its just a truck 5 wire might flow slightly different because its mounted to a dual cold air but still has a screen

[BLK02WS6]

Okay - try the tune above and get me as much log as possible without it going too lean. Often, they will richen up after you start to move the car and get out of the idle region. Once I have a bit of log, I can get it dialed in more.

[BLK02WS6]

Sorry progress is kind of slow... not sure where you are located, but I am in EST and have to get up at 4:30am, so I can't stay on here very late...

[myws6formula]

15328


I would have logged longer but im hearing a noise in my car and I have to figure out what it is. odd rubbing noise when im driving just above a coast on tip in. hope its just a tailpipe slip fitting or something rubbing on the body

[BLK02WS6]

Here you go, give this a shot...

[myws6formula]

thanks im going to try and give it a run tonight, the weather is really hit or miss right now.

[myws6formula]

15347 looked better from what i could see on the WB while driving

[maudyZ28]

15347 looked better from what i could see on the WB while driving


Your gonna have a great tune when done, been keeping up with this thread and the tunes :D

Looked like your MAF only had the lean issue at idle? The extra ~10% increase everywhere else was matched by the BEN factor showing 10% rich everywhere.
Just need the final dial ins and smoothing now :D

[joecar]

What MAF and plumbing do you have...?

[BLK02WS6]

Here you go - this one is back in closed loop so you can drive it when you get the rear straightened out. After you get it fixed, log it again - add LTFTs to the PIDs so we can see how they look. We may need to do some more fine tuning, but it is pretty close now. Good luck with everything until you can get back on here!

[myws6formula]

im using the 5wire truck maf unmodified

as for the pluming its not a simple answer.... im running a slp dual air box system. they offered it for the tpi f-bodies back in the late 80's early 90's and was used on the firehawks in 92 I took the tube that runs to both air boxes and made a copy and then modified the copy to allow the MAF a correct way to bolt to the tube with a seal. 15366