Modify tune for turbo

[gpr]

I have a 2002 camaro and before i had headers, dual exhaust, with some sort of cam (had it in when i bought car so don't know what it is), and then i put a racetronix fuel pump in and had setup and tuned it on e85.

Now I built a turbo kit for it with cast manifolds, swapped out the stock 28lbs injectors for some 1000cc injectors (1155cc at 4bar). I put a second pump in the tank, removed fuel pressure regulator, and set it up as a return system with a regulator after the rails. Car is still on e85, and i removed the maf. Running a 3 bar map.

I took the tune that was running in the car from before and followed the custom os tutorial to copy and paste it into cos 5. I can not get the car to stay running under about 2000rpms. If i hold the throttle to the floor it will start up and then i have to hold rpms at 2000 or it will die. I think it is something with my injector flow rate.

To tune the car on e85 originally I was lazy and modified the IFR table by 30% less so I didn't have to change all other tables, and i got it tuned in and running really well. How i did this is i took all the vales in the IFR and multiplied them by .7

My question is if the stock injectors are rated at 28lbs at 58psi? Since the tune I'm starting with is setup based on a 30% less IFR do i set my regulator to 58psi then take 1155 (rating of injectors at 58psi), and multiply them by .7 and enter that value? So my IFR table would have a value of 76.909 and this value would be the same throughout the table since it is a rising rate regulator? Because i tried this and still can't get car to idle.

any and all idea's are welcome, i was actually thinking about swapping back the 28lbs injectors to see if that would work and put the tune back in it had before. Since i'm not running the maf anymore if i put the old tune in would it be good enough to start up and idle?

[gpr]

Also once i do get the engine running, will I perform calc.vet just like before and it will also work on the new Boost VE Table A0009?

[joecar]

VE/MAF were tuned for IFR set to .7 x actual flow...?

Try this:
- set B4001 IFR back to previous value,
- B3601 Stoich AFR for E85 (9.7),
- multiply B0101 VE by (1/.7)=1.429.


No, do Calc.MAFT to correct Main VE and Boost VE tables (ignore the MAF calculation part of it)...

read thru both Calc.VET and Calc.MAFT threads first (make sure you understand both) and then do Calc.MAFT;

Calc-VET-correcting-MAF-and-calculating-VE-(in-single-log) (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?15236-Calc-VET-correcting-MAF-and-calculating-VE-(in-single-log))
Calc-MAFT-correcting-VE-and-calculating-MAF-(in-single-log)-gt-reverse-of-Calc-VET (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?16413-Calc-MAFT-correcting-VE-and-calculating-MAF-(in-single-log)-gt-reverse-of-Calc-VET)
CALC-VET-Summary-Notes (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?16280-CALC-VET-Summary-Notes)
Summary-Notes (http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?14188-Summary-Notes) post #29

you will need the calc_pids.txt from either of those threads (the pid CALC.DAT is important).

do you have FlashScan V1 or V2...?

which wideband do you have...?




idea: in scantool create a single map that looks like B0101 and A0009 placed side-by-side...
(this allows you to use a single transient filter, and you just copy/paste the appropriate portion of the map into B0101 or A0009).

[gpr]

VE/MAF were tuned for IFR set to .7 x actual flow...?

Try this:
- set B4001 IFR back to previous value,
- B3601 Stoich AFR for E85 (9.7),
- multiply B0101 VE by (1/.7=1.429).


Yes, do Calc.VET on Main VE and Boost VE tables. edit(joecar): sorry, I meant to say do Calc.MAFT here

When doing calc.vet on the boost table I'm assuming the best method would be to make a second map that starts where the regular calc.vet map leaves off. that way you create new values for both b0101 and A0009?

Ok, i will try this tonight. I assume multiplying B0101 by 1.429 is to compensate for the previous B4001 table that was 30% less than it was suppose to be?

Does modifying B3601 to 9.7 affect the tune in anyway? I always wondered that value was actually used. Such as in the future possibly the e85 mixture is only 70% ethanol i can skew the B3601 stoich ratio to get afr back where it should be?

[joecar]

Sorry, I pressed Reply too soon... do Calc.MAFT, not Calc.VET.

[joecar]

When doing calc.vet on the boost table I'm assuming the best method would be to make a second map that starts where the regular calc.vet map leaves off. that way you create new values for both b0101 and A0009?

Ok, i will try this tonight. I assume multiplying B0101 by 1.429 is to compensate for the previous B4001 table that was 30% less than it was suppose to be?

Does modifying B3601 to 9.7 affect the tune in anyway? I always wondered that value was actually used. Such as in the future possibly the e85 mixture is only 70% ethanol i can skew the B3601 stoich ratio to get afr back where it should be?Do Calc.MAFT.

If you're using wideband only, then in calc_pids.txt you want SELBEN to use wideband only, this is done by setting the CLC for CALC.CL to "0".


Yes, x1.429 is to unscale the VE table (from being scaled by tuning with IFR set to x.7).


Setting B3601 to 9.7 causes the final fueling to be richer (it does what IFR x .7 does, but cleaner (leaving VE correctly modeling airmass).

[gpr]

Are you sure i should take my Ve table and multiply it by 1.429? This seems like it is making it very very rich as some of the VE values are above 140% which doesn't seem like the car naturally aspirated would be anywhere close to that effecent.

Wouldn't changing the B3601 to 9.7 and then changing the IFR table back to actual injector flow rate make the compensation needed?

BTW, thank you for your help. I'm going to go read through all those threads again, its been a while so i need a refresher, and for some reason some of my maps and dashboards disappeared.

[gpr]

I'm still stumped. Tried all your recommendations, even tried putting VE with 30% smaller values and nothing works. It will start if i have the throttle wide open but i have to hold it open and if it drops under 1500rpm it dies because it is so rich.

It seems no matter what i do it has no affect on how the car runs. I have tried decreasing fuel pressure, decrease and increase VE, changed the IFR table. I also thought maybe it was trying to use the TPS VE Table as A0003 was enable, so i disabled that and zero'd out the table. Still no change, so i have no idea why it isn't working. I'm debating on either putting a regular tune back in so it will start up and run, or put my stock injectors back in to see if possibly these new 1000cc injectors are bad.

Here is my tune with the cos5, and here is the short log file I got tonight. Also i have attached the file which i started from and what i was running before i told everything down to do the turbo.

Also why do all the custom calibrations show up as "Out of Range" even though they are set at or in the limits?

[gpr]

I think I might have found a possible cause. B3647 Commanded fuel vs rpm was set to show AFR, and it had values of less than one in there. I'm guessing that was commanding the car to be stupid rich? I put the values from the COS tutorial, but i'm guessing they were talking about lambda.

Anyway i put the following values in the attache screen shot. Will this work as it is using the stoich a/f of e85, or should i put 14.7 for stoich and have it richen up to 11 or 12?

[joecar]

Are you sure i should take my Ve table and multiply it by 1.429? This seems like it is making it very very rich as some of the VE values are above 140% which doesn't seem like the car naturally aspirated would be anywhere close to that effecent.

Wouldn't changing the B3601 to 9.7 and then changing the IFR table back to actual injector flow rate make the compensation needed?

BTW, thank you for your help. I'm going to go read through all those threads again, its been a while so i need a refresher, and for some reason some of my maps and dashboards disappeared.Trythis first and see what it does.


Also, view your VE table in g*K/kPa units (then you won't have any problem with >100%).

[joecar]

I'm still stumped. Tried all your recommendations, even tried putting VE with 30% smaller values and nothing works. It will start if i have the throttle wide open but i have to hold it open and if it drops under 1500rpm it dies because it is so rich.

It seems no matter what i do it has no affect on how the car runs. I have tried decreasing fuel pressure, decrease and increase VE, changed the IFR table. I also thought maybe it was trying to use the TPS VE Table as A0003 was enable, so i disabled that and zero'd out the table. Still no change, so i have no idea why it isn't working. I'm debating on either putting a regular tune back in so it will start up and run, or put my stock injectors back in to see if possibly these new 1000cc injectors are bad.

Here is my tune with the cos5, and here is the short log file I got tonight. Also i have attached the file which i started from and what i was running before i told everything down to do the turbo.

Also why do all the custom calibrations show up as "Out of Range" even though they are set at or in the limits?With a COS you have to initially edit all of those to sane values...


they are beyond the limits (i.e. out-of-range) but the tunetool displays the closest limit... you have to set them to sane values, or just inside the range, save file, exit tunetool, restart tunetool, set the ones that should be at the limit to the limit, save file...


you have to fix these:


Out of Range calibration summary: 02:07:06 pm, Friday Jun 14, 2013

EFILive Custom Calibrations
{A0001} Forced Octane Scaler Percentage, was out of range when loaded.
{A0002} Octane Scaler Limiter, was out of range when loaded.
{A0017} N20 Monitor VE Multiplier Table RPM Enable, was out of range when loaded.
{A0018} N20 Monitor VE Multiplier Table MAP Enable, was out of range when loaded.
{A0007} TPS VE Table, contained one or more out of range values when loaded.


and also A0012, A0013.


[ don't mess with TPS VE table... this needs your VE table to be already corrected in order to properly work ]

[joecar]

I'm still stumped. Tried all your recommendations, even tried putting VE with 30% smaller values and nothing works. It will start if i have the throttle wide open but i have to hold it open and if it drops under 1500rpm it dies because it is so rich.

It seems no matter what i do it has no affect on how the car runs. I have tried decreasing fuel pressure, decrease and increase VE, changed the IFR table. I also thought maybe it was trying to use the TPS VE Table as A0003 was enable, so i disabled that and zero'd out the table. Still no change, so i have no idea why it isn't working. I'm debating on either putting a regular tune back in so it will start up and run, or put my stock injectors back in to see if possibly these new 1000cc injectors are bad.

Here is my tune with the cos5, and here is the short log file I got tonight. Also i have attached the file which i started from and what i was running before i told everything down to do the turbo.

Also why do all the custom calibrations show up as "Out of Range" even though they are set at or in the limits?There are two tune files attached to your post (i.e. no log file)...


also note, I would do it in this order:

stock OS -> 4L80E segment swap -> COS upgrade

[joecar]

I think I might have found a possible cause. B3647 Commanded fuel vs rpm was set to show AFR, and it had values of less than one in there. I'm guessing that was commanding the car to be stupid rich? I put the values from the COS tutorial, but i'm guessing they were talking about lambda.

Anyway i put the following values in the attache screen shot. Will this work as it is using the stoich a/f of e85, or should i put 14.7 for stoich and have it richen up to 11 or 12?Yes, those are overly rich.


In the tunetool set the fueling units to EQR, exit tunetool, restart the tunetool, and redo B3647 and B3618;

B3647: EQR for low load: 0.99 or 1.01 (be careful, setting B3647 to 1.00 will trigger OL STFT trimming)

B3618: EQR 1.165 if NA, 1.25 if running boost.

[joecar]

Also note: the MAF DTC's in C6001 are set to Not-Reported...

this means that you won't get a MAF DTC...

this means that the PCM will continue to use the MAF.

[joecar]

I think you should start from some known stock tune...

then do the 4L80E segment swap...

then do the COS5 upgrade...

then decide if you want to run MAF or MAF-less;

set B3601 for the fuel you will be using;

then set your IFR (and other injector tables) to correctly model your injectors (if you're going to run with MAF, you may have to scale);

set B3618 and B3647 to suitable EQR for your application (NA or Boosted),

estimate your VE table,

start tuning.

[gpr]

Also note: the MAF DTC's in C6001 are set to Not-Reported...

this means that you won't get a MAF DTC...

this means that the PCM will continue to use the MAF.

So when c6001 is set to non emissions it won't use the maf, but then they will be in there every time i pull DTC's? I put them to not reported so they won't show up as i figured the maf isn't used anyway since it is unplugged.

[joecar]

So when c6001 is set to non emissions it won't use the maf, but then they will be in there every time i pull DTC's? I put them to not reported so they won't show up as i figured the maf isn't used anyway since it is unplugged.No...

C6001 set to Not-Reported causes DTC to not trigger...

yes, you want a MAF DTC to be present, this tells the PCM to ignore the MAF (without this DTC the PCM will still use the MAF, even if the MAF is physically absent...!!!);


C6001 set to 1-Trip or Non-Emissions allows DTC to trigger... but always check that it does trigger.

[gpr]

Good to know how the COS fails the maf to not use it. I put it to non emissions. After changing the commanded air fuel ratio to something that makes since the car starts up and idles! now on with the rest of the tuning.

Thanks again joecar!!!!

[Rich Z]

B3618: EQR 1.165 if NA, 1.25 if running boost.

Joe, does this mean that B3618 needs to be a flat line? Or are you just indicating a starting point?

[joecar]

Good to know how the COS fails the maf to not use it. I put it to non emissions. After changing the commanded air fuel ratio to something that makes since the car starts up and idles! now on with the rest of the tuning.

Thanks again joecar!!!!No, it's not the COS that is failing the MAF, is the presence of the MAF DTC (regardless of COS)

[ the COS's can run with the MAF if it is not failed... for example I run COS5 with MAF ]

Yes, Non-Emissions still allows the MAF DTC to show up (and hence fail the MAF).

Cool, rock on :cheers:

[joecar]

Joe, does this mean that B3618 needs to be a flat line? Or are you just indicating a starting point?Initially, you would set B3618 flat like you said...

then if you can get dyno time, after VE/MAF (whichever you use) are corrected, you can fine tune B3618 (so that it is not necessarily a straight line);

same if you have successive 1/4 mile passes, on each pass you can adjust B3618 and take note of the ET/TS... but on a dyno it is easier.

If you daily-drive then it is easiest/safest to leave it flat same value.

[gpr]

Attached are my tune now and a scan from tonight. It was only a scan at idle tonight to verify how the engine was running, and that the pids were working etc...

the map created with AutoVe is map "D" and for some reason I'm only getting decimals is this correct? seems like it is the opposite of what it should be, as when i copy with labels and paste with labels and multiply, then it is making the VE % smaller at those cells. However it needs to be making them larger. Seems like the values should be larger than 1 created in the map so i can copy and paste those.

what do i have setup wrong? (other than that everyone thinks it should be displayed in metric, but i prefer imperial units)

[darcy]

What sort of decimal number are you seeing?

Your wideband Lambda hovers around 1.1 at a commanded EQR of 1.0 (Gasoline AFR 14.68 / E85 AFR 9.71) - should result in a BEN of 1.1 (sounds like this is what you were expecting to see)
You would be seeing ~ 0.73 if wideband is still programmed for gas and your BEN is based on wideband AFR.

Best solution is to work in EQR units (1/lambda). Then your BEN is simply commanded_EQR * wideband_Lambda.

[gpr]

It was showing .757 as a value in the map. How do i modify the map to use either eqr or lambda? it sounds like it is using eqr already?

[joecar]

Attached are my tune now and a scan from tonight. It was only a scan at idle tonight to verify how the engine was running, and that the pids were working etc...

the map created with AutoVe is map "D" and for some reason I'm only getting decimals is this correct? seems like it is the opposite of what it should be, as when i copy with labels and paste with labels and multiply, then it is making the VE % smaller at those cells. However it needs to be making them larger. Seems like the values should be larger than 1 created in the map so i can copy and paste those.

what do i have setup wrong? (other than that everyone thinks it should be displayed in metric, but i prefer imperial units)In your map properties, on each of the Data, Col, Row tabs checkmark show units...

then on the Data tab set the precision to 3 or 4...

then save and exit the properties...

and then post a screenshot of your map.


In your tunetool what are the fueling units...?

What are you using as the map's Data pid...?

[joecar]

It was showing .757 as a value in the map. How do i modify the map to use either eqr or lambda? it sounds like it is using eqr already?Use the calc pid that defines ben as this:

...
Best solution is to work in EQR units (1/lambda). Then your BEN is simply commanded_EQR * wideband_Lambda.

more specifically, the calc_pids.txt file for the Calc.MAFT procedure defines CALC.WO2BEN as "{GM.EQIVRATIO}*{EXT.WO2LAM1}".

Are you doing the Calc.MAFT procedure [which corrects the VE table] (as established above)...?

[gpr]

In your map properties, on each of the Data, Col, Row tabs checkmark show units...

then on the Data tab set the precision to 3 or 4...

then save and exit the properties...

and then post a screenshot of your map.


In your tunetool what are the fueling units...?

What are you using as the map's Data pid...?

Here is a screen shot of both the map with data units, and the properties of the tune tool.

[gpr]

Use the calc pid that defines ben as this:

more specifically, the calc_pids.txt file for the Calc.MAFT procedure defines CALC.WO2BEN as "{GM.EQIVRATIO}*{EXT.WO2LAM1}".

Are you doing the Calc.MAFT procedure [which corrects the VE table] (as established above)...?

I'm using BEN_LC11 as I have a LC1 install on the car, is that correct.

[gpr]

I'm a bit confused as well as how I should be setting everything up. There is calc.ve calc.vet, calc.maft, auto.ve. i downloaded the pdf tutorial from you link joecar of the "AutoVE Tuning Tutorial" and followed it. I assumed this is the correct tutorial?

I am using COS 5, trying to tune the car with in Speed Density since I have removed the maf.

[joecar]

Here is a screen shot of both the map with data units, and the properties of the tune tool.Set your fueling units to EQR.

Your map shows your wideband is not working...

also you want your map horizontal axis to use MAP kPa (not psi).

[joecar]

I'm a bit confused as well as how I should be setting everything up. There is calc.ve calc.vet, calc.maft, auto.ve. i downloaded the pdf tutorial from you link joecar of the "AutoVE Tuning Tutorial" and followed it. I assumed this is the correct tutorial?

I am using COS 5, trying to tune the car with in Speed Density since I have removed the maf.You're running SD, then you could do the Calc.MAFT procedure (as said above)...

or it looks like you're fixed on the AutoVE tutorial so them just simply do that, the pdf tells you how to set up (ignore Calc.MAFT and Calc.VET).




(http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?16413-Calc-MAFT-correcting-VE-and-calculating-MAF-%28in-single-log%29-gt-reverse-of-Calc-VET)

[gpr]

Ah okay, after reading that post #29 it helps a lot!!!

So calc.maft is basically the same as autoVE but it doesn't disable LTFT, and it also is creating a calculated value for the MAF table. (which i assume i don't need to copy and paste into my tune since the maf isn't used anyway?)

I will go do calc.maft now because it uses the same pid's as calc.vet which i have already setup and used to tune the car before i went to the COS.

[joecar]

...

So calc.maft is basically the same as autoVE but it doesn't disable LTFT, and it also is creating a calculated value for the MAF table. (which i assume i don't need to copy and paste into my tune since the maf isn't used anyway?)

...Correct (and correct).

[gpr]

I noticed as I was tuning that the map sensor wasn't reading correctly. I have a pressure sensor that was reading 12.4psi on my dyno weather station (also verified by the local airport readings) but the new cars 3 bar map was at 13.9. In the COS upgrade it states to enter the value of 288 into c3601, and that you can scale this value for the map sensor to read correctly.

c3602 is Map Sensor Offset and is set to 1.5. Instead of changing C3601 cant i just change c3602, as that seems like what it is there for?

The odd thing is going back to look at old logs and the map sensor was reading correctly then the offset was still set at 1.5 in c3602.

[BLK02WS6]

No, you need to use the scaler (C3601) and leave C3602 alone... as you have seen, it reads correctly with C3602 left stock...

[gpr]

I'm back in town and able to mess with the car more. I got the map sensor scaled so it reads correctly. However before and still now the PID's calculated maf is not showing up as a valid PID.

i have copied and pasted the text file with the PID's in it, but still not working. do i need this for calc.maft?

[gpr]

Also when i was setting c6301 so the map sensor would read correctly it was a little odd. the atmosphere pressure around here is about 12.4 psi. setting c6301 at 260 reads 12.5 lower it to 258 it reads 12.5, lower it again to 257 and it now reads 12.3. tried it a couple times setting it to different things and for some reason it does the same and goes from 12.5 to 12.3 psi, is this normal?

[gpr]

Alright, did a log this morning and got everything to work. So now i can finally start tuning.

I would like to also log timing advance but i'm at 24 pid's. Do i really need to include GM.MAFFREQ, and SAE.MAF? Because there is no MAF hooked up anyway so it isn't getting any readings. I'm guessing though that CALC.MAFT and CALC.MAFN are used as it is calculating what the MAF should be reading?

thanks again to everyone for their help!

[BLK02WS6]

No, you don't need the MAF pids if you are running speed density.

[joecar]

Correct... CALC.MAFN and CALC.MAFT are calculating what the MAF table would be (using the pid GM.VETABLE_DMA).


Since you're interested in correcting VE (and not really interested in MAF) you can ignore those pids if you want (CALC.MAFN, CALC.MAFT, GM.VETABLE_DMA).