TCC Tuning! TCC Lock 3rd at WOT?

[EagleMark]

Been doing some trans tuning for awhile with great results, pretty easy to completely change how a vehicle feels and drives. Take away the BIG SLUSH and make it feel like you actually have gears! :anitoof:

So started reading some of the threads here with great info:
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?21219-GM-4-speed-Transmission-setup&highlight=tcc+pwm
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?21108-TCC-slips-at-light-throttle&highlight=tcc+pwm
Best post but read entire thread:
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?1723-How-about-a-transmission-tuning-tutorial!&p=16583&viewfull=1#post16583

On to my problem. Can't stop TCC Lock up in third gear at WOT?

Here's a log, .tun and even a dashboard with monitor set up in "B" (can't seem to upload a dashboard set up?) to see the issue starting at 180, I let off after a short bit when TCC locked up, it's consistent so I got a log of it.

Maybe I missing something simple?

[EagleMark]

Main goals of this thread and questions are to reduce wear from slipping and decrease heat from slipping. Without causing undue stress or wear on tranny. To produce a good tranny tune for feel and drive ablity of vehicles.

Second question?

TCC PWM Duty Cycle D2903 min and D2904 max. I've read a few times to decrease wear and heat that the max should be 99-100 % and min should be lower but only a little bit. Basically keeping full duty cycle to avoid slip.

Did a log with stock setting which max was basically 98% and the mins were as low as 10% up to 21%. During Lock Up there was no slip, well 1-2 RPM and duty cycle would change to low numbers like 40%. Even when hard acceleration there was no slip, eventually the TCC was unlocked where it should have by TPS% setting.

Increased the min to be 96% with max at 98% and still no slip but duty cycle did stay high. Is this even needed then? Is this causing an undue strain? Data logs show the TCC Duty PID GM.TCCDC at max of 98% long before TCC is Applied, when locked goes much lower.

This is my first time adjusting these settings and I see no results?

[EagleMark]

D2905 TCC Pressure Apply Rate.

Have not tested this one yet but may have time today.

Looks like it is used to slow/slip/smooth/slush TCC while being engaged. In my logs I have as much as 1.2 seconds to lock up Converter with PID GM.TCCTIME

[EagleMark]

Understanding GMTFMPRS Pressure control Solenoid Pressure. It's been noted to use this in tranny data logs but I see no correlation to it's raising and lowering pressures? So I don't understand what it's purpose is?

[Wheelz]

Subscribed.

I wouldn't mind helping figure out what these are, ill be more help when I get back home to an Internet connection tho. Kinda difficult reading tunes on a phone at this time :haha:

[Taz]

Hi Mark,

Give the attached tune a whirl. TCC should engage a little more positively than before. To unlock the TCC in third gear based on %TPS adjust D1008 - you will notice I adjusted the cells above 60 MPH to unlock at 88% TPS (which is the lower threshold for your %TPS = WOT settings).

Also, just my opinion, but your Desired Shift Times are a little bit quick at low %TPS and your Base Shift Pressures are a little bit low in general - with respect to a tune intended for "spirited" driving.


Cheers,
Taz

[EagleMark]

So you found an issue? Cool! Thanks Taz! I'll give it a whirl... and also look to see what I was doing wrong.

The desired Shift times have worked well, but as I follow some info in first post links like increased pressure and taking out some TM, I'm finding they may be to quick.

I've only added 10% to Base Shift Pressures so far and started to log as well as feel differences.

Tips and tricks are always appreciated. But I do them slow and verify, must also learn, not just punch numbers in! :anitoof:

[Taz]

... So you found an issue? ...

Not an issue ... the settings in the tune are typical ... trying to find a way to get the TCC to work the way you wish.


... and also look to see what I was doing wrong ...

Not doing anything wrong ... many different ways to arrive at a similar end.

I tend to leave TM at, or very near, stock levels. This keeps the transmission as safe as possible during shifts - and typically TM is only active for a fraction of a second.

I also tend to increase shift pressure to reduce potential slippage - which may also promote longevity.

Increased shift pressure also creates a firmer shift.

A balance must be struck between shift time and shift pressure - to create the desired driving feel, without sacrificing transmission longevity.

[EagleMark]

Hi Mark,

Give the attached tune a whirl. TCC should engage a little more positively than before.


D2905 TCC Pressure Apply Rate.

Have not tested this one yet but may have time today.

Looks like it is used to slow/slip/smooth/slush TCC while being engaged. In my logs I have as much as 1.2 seconds to lock up Converter with PID GM.TCCTIMEThat was my next adjustment. You verified I was on right track there! :banana:



Hi Mark,
To unlock the TCC in third gear based on %TPS adjust D1008 - you will notice I adjusted the cells above 60 MPH to unlock at 88% TPS (which is the lower threshold for your %TPS = WOT settings).Cheers,
Taz Had to look before a drive. But I wasn't trying to release, at WOT it should have never engaged? Based on WOT and D1002 settings... Going to give it a shot now.



I tend to leave TM at, or very near, stock levels. This keeps the transmission as safe as possible during shifts - and typically TM is only active for a fraction of a second.

I also tend to increase shift pressure to reduce potential slippage - which may also promote longevity.

Increased shift pressure also creates a firmer shift.

A balance must be struck between shift time and shift pressure - to create the desired driving feel, without sacrificing transmission longevity.This is the balance I'd like to add! When ever I start doing something differant I like to do it slow, data, verify etc...

The Shift TM is one I have always stayed away from, but reading some other threads advice from reputable people I am making small adjustments there.

[EagleMark]

Hi Mark,

Give the attached tune a whirl. TCC should engage a little more positively than before. To unlock the TCC in third gear based on %TPS adjust D1008 - you will notice I adjusted the cells above 60 MPH to unlock at 88% TPS (which is the lower threshold for your %TPS = WOT settings).

Cheers,
TazStill got TCC Lock coming on third gear at WOT? :nixweiss:

At other then WOT, just normal driving the adjustments made to engage TCC quicker and less slip worked very nicely. Cut times in half, can feel the lock nicely and nothing harsh. :thumb_yello:

Other adjustments in Shift Pressure and Shift times have improved dramatically! Drives very nice with nothing harsh. I even get tire chirp in 1>2 shift at WOT! :mrgreen:

[darcy]

Mark,

My interpretation of the tune as is:

- Taz set you up so that it will still unlock at WOT. Try setting D1008 to 100% for all cells.
- D1002 & D1005 are controlling converter lock - D1002 won't lock it until 76MPH @ 100% throttle, D1005 is requesting an unlock if you go 100% TPS while slower than 70MPH

[EagleMark]

Thanks darcy! I think you got it, matches up perfect to logs I got earlier.

Will adjust and test tomorrow. :mrgreen:

[Taz]

Hi Mark,

Sorry the D1008 trick didn't work - have never tried that before. Was looking for a quick and easy way to arrive at your needs.

As Darcy pointed out, a rework of D1002 and D1005 should get you there.

As an aside, for heavy towing with a generally stock 4L60, the gear selector should be in third (not OD) for the trans to survive. When I flash a towing tune, I setup Tow / Haul mode to keep the TC locked in third gear.

Now that you are using an 0411 PCM, you can wire a momentary switch to access Tow / Haul mode. This would give you access to two shift patterns on your 1998 Vortec truck.


Cheers,
Taz

[EagleMark]

It's all good Taz! As always appreciate the help.

Sometimes you just go blind looking at stuff and need a fresh set of eyes... the melding of the minds is always good too!

WOT 3rd gear TCC Lock Up issue fixed! Woo Hoo!

[EagleMark]

I thought I was happy with trans tune before making all these further adjustments. Man was I wrong, this is way better. It's not a race car at all so never really noticed the 3rd gear WOT and TCC coming on, but that is fixed now too!

Overall it's just sweet, nothing hard or harsh at light throttle, half throttle and the shifts are firmer. WOT 1>2 shit I can chirp a tire! :anitoof:

TCC lock up times are about half what they used to be, can feel it nice and no bang.

Main goals of this thread and questions are to reduce wear from slipping and decrease heat from slipping. Without causing undue stress or wear on tranny. To produce a good tranny tune for feel and drive ability of vehicles, along with increased trans life and less heat.

From earlier in thread:

TCC PWM Duty Cycle D2903 min and D2904 max. I've read a few times to decrease wear and heat that the max should be 99-100 % and min should be lower but only a little bit. Basically keeping full duty cycle to avoid slip.

Did a log with stock setting which max was basically 98% and the mins were as low as 10% up to 21%. During Lock Up there was no slip, well 1-2 RPM and duty cycle would change to low numbers like 40%. Even when hard acceleration there was no slip, eventually the TCC was unlocked where it should have by TPS% setting.

Increased the min to be 96% with max at 98% and still no slip but duty cycle did stay high. Is this even needed then? Is this causing an undue strain? Data logs show the TCC Duty PID GM.TCCDC at max of 98% long before TCC is Applied, when locked goes much lower.

This is my first time adjusting these settings and I see no results?Please explain?

[slows10]

Good thread, thanks for sharing good info. Going to start "adjusting" a 4l70e shortly

[hog]

Abobout 10 years ago I got an L31 calibration that disabled the 3rd gear WOT TCC apply and it was worth about a tenth in teh 1/4 mile. The trans would shift into 3rd gear, then lock the TCC at 75mph(as per the stock cal) and cause some serious bogging in acceleration.
4l80e cals lock at WOT in 2nd gear, the 60e's lock in 3rd at 75-85mph, all stock of course.

peace
Hog

[EagleMark]

A tenth in 1/4 mile does not sound like a lot, it all helps of course. But acceleration in 3rd WOT without TCC locking up is a huge gain in acceleration looking at MPH going up!

[joecar]

It's all good Taz! As always appreciate the help.

Sometimes you just go blind looking at stuff and need a fresh set of eyes... the melding of the minds is always good too!

WOT 3rd gear TCC Lock Up issue fixed! Woo Hoo!Hi EM, what did you do...?

[joecar]

TCC lock/unlock is a combination of PT apply/release tables and throttle release table...

when you graph them on common axes (the throttle table has to be rotated 90 degrees), you should get a hysteresis band between the PT apply and release tables, and the throttle release table should avoid overlapping into this hysteresis band.

[joecar]

For example, this is a graph of PT 3->4, PT 4->3, and TPS 4->3, it shows how non-100% TPS 4->3 conflicts with PT 3->4 (the blue region)

[ note that the TPS 4->3 curve is graphed on its side (i.e. rotated 90 degrees) to match the graph axes ]

in the blue region, you may or may not get the expected shift (it will be the opposite of what you determine/expect).


same concept applies to TCC apply, TCC release, and TCC TPS release.


http://imageshack.us/a/img249/4841/43kickdownty3.png

[EagleMark]

Hi EM, what did you do...?Darcy pointed me to the issue of D1002 Third Gear TCC Apply was still commanded to be locked by MPH. I changed the 87.5% TPS to 100% TPS MPH to unreachable 125 MPH and it stays unlocked. To avoid conflict I also changed D1005 Third Gear Realese to 120 MPH.

D1002 TCC Apply was set to 75 MPH and even WOT it is still what is used.

[joecar]

Makes you wonder why they came from the factory like that since none of the stock TC's can survive WOT very much.

[EagleMark]

And it's every .tun I looked at for MY 2002 12212156 OS. Truck, Van, Camaro...

I think what caused the brain fart of TCC lock up is:
All part throttle shifts have their own parameter tables!
All WOT shifts have their own parameter tables!
All TCC apply and release is all handled by same parameter tables whether it's part throttle or WOT.

[hog]

A tenth in 1/4 mile does not sound like a lot, it all helps of course. But acceleration in 3rd WOT without TCC locking up is a huge gain in acceleration looking at MPH going up!
No, 1 tenth isnt a lot, but its over a truck length at the finish line. Now that gain is simply from the TCC not applying, has nothing to do with the huge gains that were found with other components of PCM tuning.
1mph=12-13hp in the trucks
1 tenth=just over a truck length
If you win by 3/4 tenths, its surprising how far ahead of the other guy you are.

In order to prevent a 3rd gear WOT TCC apply, I would have to slightly hold the brake pedal just after the 2-3 upshift, as the TCC wont engage if the brakes are applied. Lots of people asked why I was on the brakes so early.

I found another tenth-tenth and a 1/2 (0.1-0.15 seconds) by running a shorter serpentine belt that bypassed the power steering pump.

Gears, PCM tune, headers/exhaust, p/s bypass 15.9 @low 80'smph with a 2.5'ish 60 ft to 14.8@94mph with a 2.007 60ft. Never had a full ruin with the marine intake and L35 TC. The only run with all my mods I had to let off and brake at around 3/4 track and ran a 15.2 limping through the traps. Probably a mid 14 run??

Some of the 3.8 Turbo crowd would experiment with locking the TCC in 2nd gear and it would up the mph a bit. Some of the 700R4 3rd GEn TPI guys also locked the TCC in 2nd.
I liked the idea of locking at the top of 1st gear, then unlocking for the 1-2 shift just to get rid of that huge rpm drop of the 700r4/60e. But I only see the ability to lock the Vortec trucks in 2nd/3rd and 4th gears.

Locking at WOT in 2nd would be less stressful on the clutch than a WOT clutch lock in 3rd gear, esp. with the tiny stock TCC's in the stock TC's.

peace
Hog

[EagleMark]

In order to prevent a 3rd gear WOT TCC apply, I would have to slightly hold the brake pedal just after the 2-3 upshift, as the TCC wont engage if the brakes are applied. Lots of people asked why I was on the brakes so early.
peace
Hog :anitoof: Did you tell them? :anitoof:

[EagleMark]

From earlier in thread: No one has had a commnet on this? Seems to be regular practice but I still don't know why if you read the quote below...

TCC PWM Duty Cycle D2903 min and D2904 max. I've read a few times to decrease wear and heat that the max should be 99-100 % and min should be lower but only a little bit. Basically keeping full duty cycle to avoid slip.

Did a log with stock setting which max was basically 98% and the mins were as low as 10% up to 21%. During Lock Up there was no slip, well 1-2 RPM and duty cycle would change to low numbers like 40%. Even when hard acceleration there was no slip, eventually the TCC was unlocked where it should have by TPS% setting.

Increased the min to be 96% with max at 98% and still no slip but duty cycle did stay high. Is this even needed then? Is this causing an undue strain or heat? Data logs show the TCC Duty PID GM.TCCDC at max of 98% long before TCC is Applied, when locked goes much lower.

This is my first time adjusting these settings and I see no results?Please explain?

[joecar]

It's hard to say...

there are at least two things working against each other:
- increased pressure (on any subsystem) means that pump is loaded a little more and so has to work a bit harder (wears a little sooner, generates a little more heat),
- decreased pressure means that component is more prone to slip (wears the friction surface, generates more heat, generates more particles/sludge);

it's hard to place an exact analysis without doing a bunch of tests.

[EagleMark]

OK, found data proof of why TCC PWM Duty Cycle D2903 min should be raised. It does help less slip.

My comment above about only seeing 1-3 RPM TCC slip was along entire data. Where it reduces slip is in first frames of data.

The part where raising TCC duty Cycle prevents or lessons the slip is immediately after Lock.
Stock setting when TCC locks it would slip for approx 15 frames of data.
Increased TCC PWM Min Duty Cycle when locks would only slip and at less RPM for 5 frames data.

After this point both showed the same of 1-3 RPM slip occasionally through data.

[hog]

:anitoof: Did you tell them? :anitoof:
Yes I did, then I got the big schpeel about how if you touch the brakes the PCM pulls timing advance...blah blah blah.

I was out driving my 2007 TBLS with the 4.2 I-6 291hp@6000rpm/ 277lb/ft@4800rpm. I was on the highway and I was suprised how long it takes the TCC to lock. I was driving at about 75mph and the revs were floating around approx 3000rpm, in OD for a few seconds, then as the apply unit started pulsing the rpms come down about 400rpm.

I dont know if it locks at WOT or not.

But I was wondering, since you see 2-3 rpm of slip at WOT, how much do you see while cruising along.
I ask because with PWM 96-97 there is supposed to be 50-60 rpm of slip at cruise, then in 1998 when ECCC or EC3 there is supposed to be even more slippage at cruise, like 80-100rpm. The TCC materials were changed to relect these changes, from cellulose to woven carbon to kevlar

peace
Hog

[EagleMark]

WOT or at cruise it still only shows 1-3 RPM... and usually 0.

If there is supposed to be more it does not show in GM.TCCSLIP

[hog]

WOT or at cruise it still only shows 1-3 RPM... and usually 0.

If there is supposed to be more it does not show in GM.TCCSLIP
And thats in a 1998 truck with a 411 01-02 van calibration?

thanks

peace
Hog

[EagleMark]

WOT or at cruise it still only shows 1-3 RPM... and usually 0.

If there is supposed to be more it does not show in GM.TCCSLIPThis is a few frames of data after lock up, then stays that way.


And thats in a 1998 truck with a 411 01-02 van calibration?

thanks

peace
HogYes!

[joecar]

Hi EM, what did you do...?


Darcy pointed me to the issue of D1002 Third Gear TCC Apply was still commanded to be locked by MPH. I changed the 87.5% TPS to 100% TPS MPH to unreachable 125 MPH and it stays unlocked. To avoid conflict I also changed D1005 Third Gear Realese to 120 MPH.

D1002 TCC Apply was set to 75 MPH and even WOT it is still what is used.You'll also have to edit D1003/D1005 for 4th gear WOT TCC (leaving D1009 at 100%)...

[EagleMark]

You'll also have to edit D1003/D1005 for 4th gear WOT TCC (leaving D1009 at 100%)...

Good point for this thread! Already done.

This also fixed the issue of cruising at 75 MPH with cruise control on and hitting a big hill. Cruise would try and accelerate but not unlock TCC in OD! Then WHAM! Downshift to third/Drive and unlock TCC and RPM go 3000+! Very startling when relaxed for a road trip. Actually scared the crap out of me as I was to relaxed...

Now the TCC will unlock, stay in OD and on the grand scale of things hardly noticeable.

If I were towing or the hill was a really long grade I would just slow down a little and let 3rd/Drive handle it...

[Wheelz]

Just for kicks, this is what I did on my LS1B to unlock the TCC. I cant give a definitive number for improvement, but daily driving I don't notice having to give it extra throttle after the shift to keep accelerating, without just rocketing away in the gear prior. Also, my stock tranny like shifting a lot better without locking the converter up so fast after a shift.

I was wondering, I do pull a bumper trailer from time to time and I'm worried about using the same logic on Tow/Haul due to overheating my tranny fluid with the converter unlocked instead of just shifting. You guys have any recommendations there?

15746

[EagleMark]

There was a recommendation of towing only in third/Drive with a 4L60E with TCC locked. I'd guess this all depends on how much your towing as well? Makes a lot of sense to stay out of OD and keep it in Drive with TCC locked to keep heat down.

For a little less slip,heat, wear and firmer TCC lockup take a look at this post and couple comments after. Increasing the Min PWM TCC is key.
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?23094-TCC-Tuning!-TCC-Lock-3rd-at-WOT&p=196505&viewfull=1#post196505

Just interpreting your tune it looks like TCC Lock in fourth/OD is very conservative, unlocks around 35% TPS depending on speed? Mine is about 75% TPS, has no ill effects, shows no sign of slip. Takes a pretty good hill/grade to use 75% then unlocking TCC will keep it there without the harsh downshift to third gear.

Looks like your using TCC Lock in second? How's that working for you? I didn't like it at all in city driving, maybe with the 3:73 gears it's just not needed, it tends to go right through there to third with no issues. I do tend to drive in third/Drive around town, lots of 35-45 MPH and I have TCC locked there. In OD it keeps unlocking TCC, shift to fourth/OD, Lock TCC, rinse and repeat, over and over . I guess I could tune that out as well.

[Wheelz]

There was a recommendation of towing only in third/Drive with a 4L60E with TCC locked. I'd guess this all depends on how much your towing as well? Makes a lot of sense to stay out of OD and keep it in Drive with TCC locked to keep heat down.

For a little less slip,heat, wear and firmer TCC lockup take a look at this post and couple comments after. Increasing the Min PWM TCC is key.
http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?23094-TCC-Tuning!-TCC-Lock-3rd-at-WOT&p=196505&viewfull=1#post196505

Just interpreting your tune it looks like TCC Lock in fourth/OD is very conservative, unlocks around 35% TPS depending on speed? Mine is about 75% TPS, has no ill effects, shows no sign of slip. Takes a pretty good hill/grade to use 75% then unlocking TCC will keep it there without the harsh downshift to third gear.

Looks like your using TCC Lock in second? How's that working for you? I didn't like it at all in city driving, maybe with the 3:73 gears it's just not needed, it tends to go right through there to third with no issues. I do tend to drive in third/Drive around town, lots of 35-45 MPH and I have TCC locked there. In OD it keeps unlocking TCC, shift to fourth/OD, Lock TCC, rinse and repeat, over and over . I guess I could tune that out as well.

Yeah I've heard that too about towing in 3rd. I'm not pulling that much weight, plus I'm typically running 75 for a couple hours so it's a catch 22 of running at 2800 rpms all day or add some heat to the tranny in OD.

Ill take a look at that thread this weekend. I'm still undecided about changing max/min limits to control stuff. I've been modifying the pressure ramp in rates to improve lockup.

Yeah I'm running it pretty conservative, but with my 5.3, stock cam and stock throttle position table if I set it to lug any harder I create a dead pedal feel. For instance at 75 mph I used to set the downshift point at 75% throttle, but when driving it with the foot feed I would essentially max out my map pressure and still have to give it another 15% or so to make it shift. Then by that point it felt like a WOT shift cause in 3rd my map was still within 5% of atmospheric after the shift. Also it was very tricky to make it only shift into 3rd if you were in a hurry trying to pass someone without going all the way to 2nd.

So with my shift curve this conservative the shift to 3rd isn't harsh at all, and I can still pull every hill in my area in 4th. And if I'm really in a hurry I can get to second at 70

I like a 2nd gear lockup, but I have 3.42s. I'm trying to set it so it only locks once I'm done accelerating in 2nd, but I like it to feel like I'm driving a manual as much as possible. I run in 3rd around town as well. But in neighborhoods it typically stays in 2nd, that's why Im locking it up there

[HellKnightHicks]

Theres alot of information here. Can someone sumarize the changes made so that i can reproduce them. Thanks

Heres the sumarry i have

D1002 Third Gear TCC Apply was still commanded to be locked by MPH.

D1008
I changed the 87.5% TPS to 100% TPS

D1005
Third Gear Realese to 120 MPH.

D1002
TCC Apply was set to 75 MPH and even WOT it is still what is used.

You'll also have to edit D1003/D1005 for 4th gear WOT TCC (leaving D1009 at 100%)...?

[Supercharged111]

Hooray! My truck does it too! But mine locks at 68mph, so super lame. I didn't mind it at 75 in the 60E, it allowed me to climb a hill at WOT with a trailer hooked up and not cook the trans fluid. I'll see how I hate it this weekend, but every step of tuning seems to indicate that the 411 would vastly improve my quality of life. Especially when I get the local guy with HPT to keep my TCC locked in 4th with a closed throttle.

[HellKnightHicks]

Hooray! My truck does it too! But mine locks at 68mph, so super lame. I didn't mind it at 75 in the 60E, it allowed me to climb a hill at WOT with a trailer hooked up and not cook the trans fluid. I'll see how I hate it this weekend, but every step of tuning seems to indicate that the 411 would vastly improve my quality of life. Especially when I get the local guy with HPT to keep my TCC locked in 4th with a closed throttle.

yup 411's makes life good :) well worth the time spent.... Need to figure out how to do this to mine.,

[HellKnightHicks]

Hooray! My truck does it too! But mine locks at 68mph, so super lame. I didn't mind it at 75 in the 60E, it allowed me to climb a hill at WOT with a trailer hooked up and not cook the trans fluid. I'll see how I hate it this weekend, but every step of tuning seems to indicate that the 411 would vastly improve my quality of life. Especially when I get the local guy with HPT to keep my TCC locked in 4th with a closed throttle.

yup 411's makes life good :) well worth the time spent.... Need to figure out how to do this to mine.,

[HellKnightHicks]

15980

So here's my log file from tonight... made sure to do no spikes or anything.

All the cars were driving slow on the road so it was hard to get a good log.

But there is one point during driving where the TCC came out early its the first good sprint at about 55 mph.

It disengages and the TPS is around 20% which in my tables corresponds to a disengagement speed of about 36 mph.



How do you get the line graphs that you sent me from your EFI live screens?

Thanks for your help.

[Supercharged111]

Have you used the Excel spreadsheet in the stickies here to make sure nothing overlaps? It really helps you visualize your hysterii as well.

[Wheelz]

15980

So here's my log file from tonight... made sure to do no spikes or anything.

All the cars were driving slow on the road so it was hard to get a good log.

But there is one point during driving where the TCC came out early its the first good sprint at about 55 mph.

It disengages and the TPS is around 20% which in my tables corresponds to a disengagement speed of about 36 mph.



How do you get the line graphs that you sent me from your EFI live screens?

Thanks for your help.

I started increasing the TCC pressure ramp in values and found my converter holds till I command it to unlock. It kinda scared me the first time when I figured it out because my unlock values at low rpm took too much throttle to unlock, where before it would start to slip and unlock early

[HellKnightHicks]

I started increasing the TCC pressure ramp in values and found my converter holds till I command it to unlock. It kinda scared me the first time when I figured it out because my unlock values at low rpm took too much throttle to unlock, where before it would start to slip and unlock early

What table is that D2905

And when you say increase your raising all of the values or some of them?

[Wheelz]

What table is that D2905

And when you say increase your raising all of the values or some of them?

Sorry it took so long to get back. Yes, D2905.

look at my tune to see what I'm doing. Just make sure 0 slip has 0 pressure increase. If your converter is slipping this may be a bandaid to make it last longer.
15994

[HellKnightHicks]

I have already modified that table more agressivly than your tune I Found annother person that had changed it an copied theres. Though I don't totally understand it.

This had no effect on my issue. Thanks for the help though.

Whats the reason for tapering off there as the slip increases then ramping back up?

[HellKnightHicks]

Have you used the Excel spreadsheet in the stickies here to make sure nothing overlaps? It really helps you visualize your hysterii as well.

Put all of my data in and didnt see anything that looked out of whack. But im a newb what do i know lol.

[HellKnightHicks]

Check page 3 of this thread out. Ive posted alot of data over here.

http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?23314-TCC-releasing-at-crusing-speeds-with-light-throttle/page3

[Wheelz]

Whats the reason for tapering off there as the slip increases then ramping back up?

Take another look at the horizontal axis. You have negative slip, increasing to zero, increasing to positive slip. You have to taper to 0 psi/sec at 0 slip or pressure will always be increasing till it maxes out and causes premature wear

[Wheelz]

I know you've got info in several threads, where is your tune? Based on your last question I'm wondering about something in it that might've caused your issue

[HellKnightHicks]

Take another look at the horizontal axis. You have negative slip, increasing to zero, increasing to positive slip. You have to taper to 0 psi/sec at 0 slip or pressure will always be increasing till it maxes out and causes premature wear

I dont understand..
How can you even have Negative slip?


I know you've got info in several threads, where is your tune? Based on your last question I'm wondering about something in it that might've caused your issue

15996

Heres my tune.

I didnt mean to post in this thread originally.. Sorry about that..

Thanks

[Wheelz]

I dont understand..
How can you even have Negative slip?



15996

Heres my tune.

I didnt mean to post in this thread originally.. Sorry about that..

Thanks

Negative slip occurs when the engine is spinning slower than your transmission. ie: slowing down. positive slip is referenced under acceleration where engine rpm is increasing faster than the input shaft to the transmission. D2905 lets you adjust the pressure increase for both situations to fine tune the lockup feel.

I believe you have worn your pump out.

15997

If you look at your table you are always increasing the pressure in the TCC clutch (the values in the table don't reference holding pressure, they reference the rate the holding pressure is increased in psi/sec), even when its not slipping, which means your pressure is always increasing till your pump is running at max pressure. Also, you should increase the psi/sec as slip increases. D2905 should not have a flat line.

I could be wrong and your pump may be fine, but D2905 needs work either way.

[HellKnightHicks]

Negative slip occurs when the engine is spinning slower than your transmission. ie: slowing down. positive slip is referenced under acceleration where engine rpm is increasing faster than the input shaft to the transmission. D2905 lets you adjust the pressure increase for both situations to fine tune the lockup feel.

I believe you have worn your pump out.

15997

If you look at your table you are always increasing the pressure in the TCC clutch (the values in the table don't reference holding pressure, they reference the rate the holding pressure is increased in psi/sec), even when its not slipping, which means your pressure is always increasing till your pump is running at max pressure. Also, you should increase the psi/sec as slip increases. D2905 should not have a flat line.

I could be wrong and your pump may be fine, but D2905 needs work either way.

I had that issue before making the changes to that table.

The issue only occurs once I reach operating temperate. I will make the adjustments to the tune though. That table came from some one elses tune on here.

so with 0 slip we want 0 pressure increase because everything is acting like its supposed to.

Heres the new table.

15998

[Wheelz]

Ah bummer. When was the last time you changed the tranny fluid? It seems like once the oil is getting warm and thins it's not maintaining the pressure required to prevent the TCC from slipping which is then causing it to unlock. I wonder if there is a PID you can log to confirm this.. Ill have to look thru them when I get home

But yes, I think that table will work better for you. You can massage the shape more if you want to tune the firmness when it locks up.

[HellKnightHicks]

Ah bummer. When was the last time you changed the tranny fluid? It seems like once the oil is getting warm and thins it's not maintaining the pressure required to prevent the TCC from slipping which is then causing it to unlock. I wonder if there is a PID you can log to confirm this.. Ill have to look thru them when I get home

But yes, I think that table will work better for you. You can massage the shape more if you want to tune the firmness when it locks up.

The tranny only has 450 miles on it.

Royal Purple Synthetic ATF

http://www.amazon.com/Royal-Purple-10154-Performance-Transmission/dp/B000MVTS96

So I doubt its the fluid.

Brand new tranny from Mad Dog transmissions 4L60E Lvl4. Sent 2 back and this is tranny #3 Tourq converter looks like a cheap S10 converter looked up the part number that was on it and it was a common reman. I payed extra for a higher stall converter. But any way.

I sent them a message to ask about it and see if they have any recommendations.

What do you think?

I think its the TC it all points to it.

[Wheelz]

Ah. Yeah I'd say the TC seems likely knowing that. I would definitely say the unlock is due to it slipping, I was just assuming you didn't have a new setup.

[HellKnightHicks]

Ive still learned a lot from working with this. I didnt know jack about this stuff until started having trouble.

I like it to engage firmly like another gear. Its kinda neat when you let off the gas and you can feel it come lose. I like it when my truck tells me shes bad ass lol...

Almost wish you could put the TCC locup on a switch and engauge it yourself as you saw fit.

Who do you reccomend for TC? I was looking at PROTORQUE converters

[hog]

The tranny only has 450 miles on it.

Royal Purple Synthetic ATF

http://www.amazon.com/Royal-Purple-10154-Performance-Transmission/dp/B000MVTS96

So I doubt its the fluid.

Brand new tranny from Mad Dog transmissions 4L60E Lvl4. Sent 2 back and this is tranny #3 Tourq converter looks like a cheap S10 converter looked up the part number that was on it and it was a common reman. I payed extra for a higher stall converter. But any way.

I sent them a message to ask about it and see if they have any recommendations.

What do you think?

I think its the TC it all points to it.
Maybe it is the fluid. I wouldnt use synthetic trans fluids.

Circle D does a good TC, he makes his own covers on the billet units.
http://circledspecialties.com/

I would either stick with an actual DBLF L35 V6 TC, or spend some more. I wouldnt want a restalled L35 TC. Yank is also good for performance.

peace
Hog

[slows10]

Mad dog transmissions does not have a good reputation at all. Many many issues with this guy. Are you saying its your 3rd torque converter or 3rd transmission from him? Seems a common theme with them is trannys lasting 1000 miles or less. I did a google search and there are a ton of complaints. I doubt you ruined your trans in 450 miles just from your tuning.

[joecar]

Warning signs:

... trans #3... cheap converter...

[joecar]

I would use a synthetic ATF that has increased levels of detergents...

for example Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF or Valvoline MaxLife DEX/MERC ATF (I've been using those with good results in my cars).


While I'm sure Royal Purple is ok, my understanding is it does not have the same levels of detergents as those two.

[HellKnightHicks]

The internals look all new from dropping the pan wiring is all new. Valve body looks new. The servos are indeed a Vett servo and a Sonnex Billet OD servo. The build list looked good and so was the price. But the TC is cheap.

They gave me the ok to open it up and take a look inside and keep it under warrenty... From what I could tell it was all new and Legit.

I paid to ship tranny #2 back myself....

First the shipped the wrong model tranny Wouldnt fit

Second was still not right but i bolted it up any way. Went into limp mode first trip out. I crated it up and shipped it back to them.

Third is this one. Ran pretty good. This one runs good and seems pretty great. But the TC is crap...

[HellKnightHicks]

Mad dog transmissions does not have a good reputation at all. Many many issues with this guy. Are you saying its your 3rd torque converter or 3rd transmission from him? Seems a common theme with them is trannys lasting 1000 miles or less. I did a google search and there are a ton of complaints. I doubt you ruined your trans in 450 miles just from your tuning.

Yea its tranny #3. I got burned. Im tempted to ship the TC back to him and ask for my extra cash back... But its probably been to long now... I spend alot of time perfecting things... Oh well.

[joecar]

I agree, I would get a replacement TC from a reputable converter company...

and when installing it, flush the cooler lines and replace ATF with new ATF (you mentioned browning in the other thread).

[HellKnightHicks]

Sniff that racing atf it's some expensive stuff.

I think I have enough to do it again.

I don't have 1100 to spend on a new tc right now. 600~ and that's gonna hurt.

[joecar]

I know it's expensive, but you can't trust the cheap converter (you cant trust if it was opened up and cleaned out and refurbished).

Racing ATF tends to have less detergent content.

He should give you money back on the TC.

[HellKnightHicks]

They ate the ones that told me to use racing atf and that it was the best. So I've spent $400 on 2 changes of fluid threw the 2 transmissions I've had in it...

What a bummer.

[HellKnightHicks]

Yea its tranny #3. I got burned. Im tempted to ship the TC back to him and ask for my extra cash back... But its probably been to long now... I spend alot of time perfecting things... Oh well.

I talked to them today.

They are going to ship me another converter from what I understand they agree that its the TCC...

Still think id rather have the Circle D converter. Those Multi dics look amazing.

I really dont want to have to get in there again.

[HellKnightHicks]

http://cvcconverters.com/
16012
Here is the modle number off of the converter that shipped with the tranny.

And the reference data

[joecar]

I don't know much about that company (other than they source a lot of replacement converters)...

lets see how this goes.

[HellKnightHicks]

Alright so they are shipping me another converter. Same one I had and said that if I had made the adjustments to the computer ahead of time that the TC clutch would have lasted.

Being a firm believer in the fact that if it broke the first time you should put something better back in its place. I just cant install the same converter again.

I really don't think Lou did me wrong its just the price they charge for the builds couldn't include a performance converter. However I did tell him the HP that my engine was going to be putting out. I like him and I would buy another tranny from him but not the TC...

Im working with Circle D now. I really like how you can see the way things are put together on his site. They really are well engineered. Im going with a multi Disc converter.

[joecar]

Sounds like a good plan.

Circle D makes an excellent product.

[HellKnightHicks]

I spoke with them on the phone and was very happy about my experience and there knowledge.

His wife is really nice too.. I like that they are an all america company.

[HellKnightHicks]

My Circle D specialty TCC is shipping today.

its a GM 258mm Pro III 4L60 LT Torque Converter

[hog]

My Circle D specialty TCC is shipping today.

its a GM 258mm Pro III 4L60 LT Torque Converter
Get ready for a surprise! 258mm ehh. Thats gonna make quite the difference. Approx what stall pseed RU expecting?

Let us know how it works out.

Surprised that the 60e and 80e TC's are the same price. And the 5year/3 year warranty with included converter cut open and clean or cut open and restall within a year(transferable) is good. Expensive though, but paying for quality is something you have to do. I hate paying the high price for a crap product.

peace
Hog

[HellKnightHicks]

Get ready for a surprise! 258mm ehh. Thats gonna make quite the difference. Approx what stall pseed RU expecting?

Let us know how it works out.

Surprised that the 60e and 80e TC's are the same price. And the 5year/3 year warranty with included converter cut open and clean or cut open and restall within a year(transferable) is good. Expensive though, but paying for quality is something you have to do. I hate paying the high price for a crap product.

peace
Hog

2600~2800

[HellKnightHicks]

Get ready for a surprise! 258mm ehh. Thats gonna make quite the difference. Approx what stall pseed RU expecting?

Let us know how it works out.

Surprised that the 60e and 80e TC's are the same price. And the 5year/3 year warranty with included converter cut open and clean or cut open and restall within a year(transferable) is good. Expensive though, but paying for quality is something you have to do. I hate paying the high price for a crap product.

peace
Hog

I dont really understand how a converter being 2" smaller makes a difference... what effect does size have on the converters?

[hog]

I dont really understand how a converter being 2" smaller makes a difference... what effect does size have on the converters?
A simple visual is a simple tabletop fan, the smaller the fan, the less fluid, in this case air the fan can move.

You can make a 298mm TC stall at 2800rpm, and you can make a 258mm stall the same rpm, but one of the diameters will be more efficient than the other. This is why people use smaller diameters for the higher stalls, and larger diameters for lower rpm stall. There comes a point when trying to make a 298mm TC stall at higher rpm, that the movement of fluid becomes very inefficient.
Think the wrong pitch of prop for a boat.
To much prop and the engine lugs down, to much and the prop will cavitate.

I know that Precision Industries likes to use a 9.5" TC for their Vigilante car applications, and their 10.5" diameter for their Vigilante truck applications.

The smaller the TC the more apt. it will be to have a higher stall rpm all else equal.

peace
Hog

[HellKnightHicks]

A simple visual is a simple tabletop fan, the smaller the fan, the less fluid, in this case air the fan can move.

You can make a 298mm TC stall at 2800rpm, and you can make a 258mm stall the same rpm, but one of the diameters will be more efficient than the other. This is why people use smaller diameters for the higher stalls, and larger diameters for lower rpm stall. There comes a point when trying to make a 298mm TC stall at higher rpm, that the movement of fluid becomes very inefficient.
Think the wrong pitch of prop for a boat.
To much prop and the engine lugs down, to much and the prop will cavitate.

I know that Precision Industries likes to use a 9.5" TC for their Vigilante car applications, and their 10.5" diameter for their Vigilante truck applications.

The smaller the TC the more apt. it will be to have a higher stall rpm all else equal.

peace
Hog

Makes sense... thanks for the explanation.


I know this 2800 stall is going to eat my shifts... So I guess ill be re-tuning my tranny perimeters to harden those shifts back up lol.

Really looking forward to it.