4l60e

[lbheart]

Hi folks,

I'm from in australia and i have an australian ss commodore. its our version of chevy
it has the ls1 ..... 5.7 litre ..... 350 chev and the 4l60e tansmission.

now third and fourth gear where slipping so i dropped the gearbox and took it in for reconditioning and i was told that it is a common problem and after reconditioning the gearbox i would need to have the computer reprogrammed to increase the line pressure because what supposedly happens is when on the highway if the MAF sensor is not at optimal working condition it can give poor reading and this causes the computer to drop the line pressures down and buggers the clutches.

I have efi live from when i did a custom install of a ls2, 6.2 litre chevy into my nissan patrol.

can anyone tell me how using efi live ( i think i have the first version) i can increase this line pressure???

thanks alot in advance/

[joecar]

Do you have any logs showing the pid TFMPRS...?

Post your tune file.

How many miles on the transmission before it failed...?

If MAF and VE are not correct then PCM can calculate low line pressure, it has to be monitored to see if it is correct.

[lbheart]

Hi mate
Thanks for replying

To be honest im not that fkuent with efi live.
I used it once to remove VATS in order to get a conversion up and running and take it down
Fir a dyno tune

I just wanna icrease it anyway to be sure.

Im replacing the MAF with a brand new one with tge new gearbox.
What does VE stand for?

Sorry about spelling using my phone

Ill plug it in tonight and see if I can save tune

[lbheart]

my tune is attached mate

i assume i just adjust the base pressure 3>4 and 2>3????


where do i find this pod business??

[joecar]

VE = Volumetric Efficiency table... which is in this case is actually cylinder airmass table (normalized for temperature and pressure).

PCM switches between VE and MAF tables depending on operating conditions.


PCM calculates base line pressure from engine torque which it calculates from cylinder airmass which it derives from VE and MAF tables.

If either VE or MAF tables are not correct, the commanded line pressure may be low (allows clutch/band slipping).

[joecar]

In the tables (reverse engineered) there are no base pressure tables... there are only shift pressure tables and adaptive pressure modification tables (defining how far PCM modifies/adapts a shift).

[joecar]

In scantool, goto PIDs tab, you will see a bunch of pids that you can log...

you want: VSS, RPM, MAF, MAP, DYNAIR, DYNCYLAIR, ECT, IAT, TFT, SPARKADV, GEAR, TCCMODE, ENGTRQ, TFMPRS and a few others... try VETABLE_DMA (your OS might not support it).

[lbheart]

mate I just wanna know how to increase the line pressures and maybe turn off torque converter lockup in third. like fucking short answer ya know?

I cant log all that until I have the new box in and all up and running and as I said earlier I don't wanna do that until I increase line pressure.

while I genuinely appreciate your help mate I don't need all the technical mumbo jumbo bullshit i'm just chasing the short answer.

cheers.

[joecar]

Line pressure can't be upped easily like that without messing with the VE and MAF tables

(there are no tables for base line pressure; there are tables for line pressure during a shift, you can try increasing these, but these only have effect during a shift... so your base line pressure will still be low).


Preventing TCC lockup in 3rd gear: set the apply curve to max value.


In truth there is no short answer because of interaction among the tables, I don't know what your tables contain.

To be able to talk about the concepts and tables we need some "mumbo-jumbo" terms... (just bump up the table for the "thingy" doesn't cut it) :)

[IJ.]

Would Force Motor do what he's after Joe?

[joecar]

Would Force Motor do what he's after Joe?


Yes, he could reduce the Force Motor Current able... (this would make base line pressure go up)...

but it wouldn't be match what it actually is... so his base pressure would now be good but his shifts might get harsh.


( I usually don't like messing with this table )

[joecar]

lbheart,

thinking it over... take a look a tables D3802 and D3803 (type one of these in the search box and click the search button)...


if you decrease these tables then line pressure will go up.

[lbheart]

i see what you mean.

how much should i decrease them by?
i'm wondering if i should decrease entire table or just the low pressure side of things i dont want to send the pressure too high and do damage


what are your thoughts?

[joecar]

The low pressure side of the table is the high current portion... try 10-15% decrease.


Do you have a pressure gauge to connect to the line tap on the side of the case...? If so you can watch line pressure after you change the table.

[lbheart]

i have several pressure gauges ill have a look and if not ill buy a suitable one.
what sort of pressures am i looking for?
where is this tap?

picked up new full recon box yesterday its in my shed ready to go for the weekend

[lbheart]

where are you from joecar?

[IJ.]

The stock Holden values for these tables is very very low in the left top corner, to the point my built 60 wouldn't select 1st gear at idle....

Another "cause" of the 3/4 failure is if you leave the shifter in D and the car kicks down to 2nd under any sort of load the 3/4 pack is still partially engaged/ slow to exhaust when it selects 2nd and the 3/4 pack loses... :( (ask how I know this)

Doesn't happen if the shifter is in 3rd at the time of kickdown to 2nd.

[joecar]

i have several pressure gauges ill have a look and if not ill buy a suitable one.
what sort of pressures am i looking for?
where is this tap?

picked up new full recon box yesterday its in my shed ready to go for the weekendTap is on LHS of case, above gear selector lever/shaft.

Depends on year/model/engine... I'll have to look in my service manual...

[joecar]

where are you from joecar?I'm from the Sydney suburbs.

I'm in Los Angeles at the moment (for the last 25 years) for short term.

[joecar]

The stock Holden values for these tables is very very low in the left top corner, to the point my built 60 wouldn't select 1st gear at idle....

Another "cause" of the 3/4 failure is if you leave the shifter in D and the car kicks down to 2nd under any sort of load the 3/4 pack is still partially engaged/ slow to exhaust when it selects 2nd and the 3/4 pack loses... :( (ask how I know this)

Doesn't happen if the shifter is in 3rd at the time of kickdown to 2nd.This might be one of the reasons why GM/Hydra-Matic removed the 3-2 control solenoid in the later 4L65E's.

[IJ.]

This might be one of the reasons why GM/Hydra-Matic removed the 3-2 control solenoid in the later 4L65E's.
Interesting, wonder how they achieve a downshift?

[joecar]

The 3-2 control solenoid does not command a shift...

but rather it controls the fluid exhaust rate from the 3rd accumulator which controls the rate at which the band is applied when downshifting into 2nd gear.

[IJ.]

The 3-2 control solenoid does not command a shift...

but rather it controls the fluid exhaust rate from the 3rd accumulator which controls the rate at which the band is applied when downshifting into 2nd gear.
Got ya, how is it controlled in a late 65?

I only have flow charts for 60 and early 65.

Can't use the 65/70 Valve body on a 60... doh

[joecar]

The later 4L65E just lets the 3rd accum fluid exit without restricting it (is my understanding).

With the 4L60E the PCM restricts the 3rd accum fluid at higher rpm by either firing the 3-2 solenoid (later 4L60E) or by modulating (PWM) it (earlier 4L60E) to control downshift feel (so they say).

[IJ.]

The later 4L65E just lets the 3rd accum fluid exit without restricting it (is my understanding).

With the 4L60E the PCM restricts the 3rd accum fluid at higher rpm by either firing the 3-2 solenoid (later 4L60E) or by modulating (PWM) it (earlier 4L60E) to control downshift feel (so they say).

Hence the self destruct on kickdown... :(

Thanks Joe, I did some research yesterday, looks like there's no "easy" late model retrofit either as they made a couple of changes at the same time, might have a look at a spare Solenoid and see if there's a way to derestrict it.

[lbheart]

how do you telll if its engaged on the pump?

i put the transmission in and filled all the way up with fliud and left the cooler lines undone to flush them.

went to turn it over and it was hard to turn over like it was aliitle bit tight or seized. got it started but no fluid flowed from the cooler lines and no drive when i put it in gear like i have put it back together with out engaging the torgue converter in the pump but i didn't thnk the torgue converter would go all the way home in the bellhousing unless it was engaged in the pump.

[lbheart]

really dont wanna take it all apart again.
fuck it

[IJ.]

There are 3x splines you need to engage, I hold it by the TC snout and spin/push it until the TC is almost touching the pump, if you've bolted it up not engaged there's a chance you've damaged the pump or the TC... :(

[lbheart]

fuck it
when i get it apart what do i look for to see if i have damaged anything which i dare say i have i did it in a rush last night

[IJ.]

Check the end of the converter where the drive dogs engage, if they're marked up at all I'd pull the pump and inspect it as it's cast iron and have been known to fail in use they're not that strong.. :(

15836

15837

[lbheart]

i think i remember hearing some noises as i was tightening up the belhousing too. damn thing should of taken my time and done it properly

[lbheart]

thanks for coming in with the "simple answer" back at the start too

[IJ.]

thanks for coming in with the "simple answer" back at the start too

No probs, this can all be a bit daunting getting your head around the syntax.

The guys here are pretty good and are always willing to help and have spent a lot of time answering my gumby questions so I'm happy to jump in if I can.

<fingers crossed> that you haven't damaged anything, better to pull it and find out now than risk more damage if you start it, the broken pump I posted happened "just driving along" a lot of people say this but this time it was the case, 70K on cruise bumped it up to 80 felt a little rough, got to a 100 zone bumped it up again on the cruise and it redlined the Tach...

The Cast Rotor isn't all that strong.

[ScarabEpic22]

Just went through this on my buddy's 06 TBSS, I didnt seat the converter correctly the first time so we dropped it and he re-seated it before I left. The next day, he thought it had it seated correctly, fired the truck up and it took the pump out. So if you didnt get it seated correctly, very good chance you've damaged the pump and/or converter unfortunately.

[joecar]

With the TC inserted all the way, the TC's flexplate pads should be about 1.125" past the bellhousing surface...

if so, then when you have the transmission bolted to the engine you will see about 0.125" (1/8") between the TC's flexplate pads and the flexplate (i.e. you have to pull the TC out 1/8" to butt it against the fleplate);

if not so, then you would notice the TC is already butted against the flexplate (and pump rotor is now damaged).

[lbheart]

ok so how do i fix?
remove and order a new pump or just pump rotor?
how do i check the converter?

[joecar]

I would either replace the whole pump, or disassemble it and inspect/replace.

Inspect the TC's snout, it usually is ok (it's fairly stout).

[IJ.]

When do you need the Rotor?

I'm in Melbourne most of this week but I have a few "Spares" at home I can send you when I get back.

I put a CroMo Rotor in mind after it exploded.

Just check the end of the TC Where it dives the pump and make sure it hasn't burred the ends, using a small thin screwdriver in the pump see if you can turn the pump by hand.

[joecar]

With a small thin screwdriver as IJ said, you can also see if the rotor is fragmented.

[lbheart]

ill get it back out in the next couple of days or on the weekend and see if i can have a look.
this is the first time i have really messed about with an auto so i don't know a whole lot about them but i tell ya this much its starting to give me the shits.
and its taking too much time away from my main project which is my fully worked 6.0l with 6.2 heads, ported, cammed, full custom exhaust and intake fabricated by me and so on and so on in my big ass nissan patrol.
i can tell ya straight out which project i would rather be putting my time into right now ............ wish i had of taken my time with it now and not just "banged it together in an arvo and 10 beers" absolutley kicking myself

[lbheart]

do you have any pictures of what i should be looking at an what i should be trying to turn.

last time i pulled a gearbox apart was to put reduction gears in a patrol gearbox ..... a hell of a lot different to these bloody hydraulic, electronic mondern autos.


thanks for all your help.

[IJ.]

If you look at the pic you'll see 2 lugs on the inner part they are the drive dogs that the TC turns, try and turn the pump by them, if the pump is broken they usually won't turn, if it does turn and it all looks like it's still one pice you should be good to go.
15843

[lbheart]

thanks heaps ij ill check it out

[IJ.]

thanks heaps ij ill check it out

<fingers crossed> Hope it works out ok! :)

[lbheart]

where are you when you at home ij?
i'm in canberra.

[IJ.]

Country Vic :)

[lbheart]

well i dropped the tranny and had a look.
converter alittle burred but i think ok.
lugs look to be broked off pump so pulled pump out and going to replace.
with i could get one on a weekend
now starting the car with this pump not working and selecting gears would not fuck anything else in the box would it?

[lbheart]

with i could get one on weekend
was ment to be
wish i could get one on weekend

[lbheart]

well took it apart and it has done damage to the housing so looks like im up for a whole new pump.....

any idea where i can get one from?
can i use one out of a v6 model? even replace the internals with the v8 ones?????
anyone have one?

[lbheart]

is the pump to same in a 4l65e?

[IJ.]

Early 65 will be the same, late will have an input speed sensor but can still be used if you leave the Sensor in place.

[lbheart]

what about using one out of v6 model??????????????

[IJ.]

what about using one out of v6 model??????????????
From memory the Stator shaft is a different length, other than that they're the same but as your Stator Shaft looks damaged you'll need to replace it anyway so either new or a Donor V8 pump is needed.

[lbheart]

I dont think my stator is really damaged might have to get this 4l65e pump and chuck that in

[joecar]

Also, besides the stator shaft being different, the V6 pump might have fewer vanes, and the rotor spring might be softer.

[IJ.]

Also, besides the stator shaft being different, the V6 pump might have fewer vanes, and the rotor spring might be softer.
Mine being a 2005 had the 13 Vane pump Joe, Spring I always change anyway so it doesn't drop pressure at high rpm, but good points, would be easier to use a V8 Donor as changing the Stator shaft requires a press.

[lbheart]

Thats fine I have a press and can use spring from othere pump id its 10 vane ill upgrade

[lbheart]

What torpue should I be using for the little torx bit bolt that go from stator to oump housing and that bolts that hould pump together

[lbheart]

i might not of mentoined earlier but while i have never messed about with auto internals i have done a few manuals and a fair number of engine rebuilds and a few conversion over the years and i have a full work shop short of a hoist. from plasma cutter and big welders all the way down to the smallest socket ...


anyway ....
i picked up a v6 auto 4l60e for $130.
you wouldnt believe it but i had a bit of a win, it's got the orange paint and stock number marking of a reco gearbox at some point. took the pump out and pulled it apart.
it has a 13 vane pump.
changed everything over with the brand new stuff in my pump (except what i fucked ofcourse).
chucked it in the press and pressed out the stator and pressed in the v8 one.

you were correct..... it appears everything else is the same.
all i need now is torque wrench settings for putting it all back together, do you guys have them?

[IJ.]

Cover to pump body 25NM

Pump to case 30NM

The Manual I have on this PC doesn't show a Tq Spec for the Stator bolts but a drop of 243 Loctite and snug them up firm should be safe enough as the bolts aren't subject to any "force" the Stator being dowelled.

There is a special tool (A big arse hose clamp) for aligning the 2 halves of the Pump, I just use the bench top and a straight edge at a couple of places with the bolts finger tight, then "adjust" with a plastic hammer, never had a drama doing it this way.