TCC releasing at crusing speeds with light throttle

[HellKnightHicks]

So ill be driving along and the TCC will unlock doing 50 miles per hour.. When the throttle is lightly pressed it will stall up.


Any ideas as to why...?

I think my tables are all in line with they should be. I've even adjusted a little to try to keep it locked...

Wondering if there is something wrong with the clutch in the TC... But it will re-egauge if you let way off the thorttle.

Thanks in advance for any help you provide.

15943
15944

[joecar]

Log a few more pids:
TSTATE09
TSTATE10
GEAR
TCCMODE
TCCDC
TCCSLIP
TIS
TOS

[Taz]

x 2

[HellKnightHicks]

roger roger

Ill do that this afternoon.

[HellKnightHicks]

I increased the pressures as per some of the discussions ive read that you both posted on. The TCC was locking and holding like it was supposed to after flashing the tune tonight.

Ill log and post on the way to work in the morning.

It still needs some tuning and i need some guidance.

Hopefully this really has fixed the issue. Ill post up after the drive in the morning.

Thanks fellas.

[HellKnightHicks]

Well i guess none of that stuff helped...
Once I'm up in 4th with TCC lockup and it has to come out it just wont hold it after that.

It will appear to go into lock but then starts stalling at any force increase on the engine.

check this log about 20 min in.

Im pretty sure i still have an exhaust leak somewhere after the header I believe.

[HellKnightHicks]

15951

[Taz]

Are you getting a P0300 DTC from time to time ?

Often misfires will disable the TC lockup. Yours is set to the OEM "2 Trips". After the reflash (which would clear the DTCs) it would take two trips for the DTC to set again - which would inhibit TC lockup.

Can you add misfire count (can't recall the exact PID) to the logged PIDs and get one more log.

[joecar]

Looks to me like TP rate exceeds threshold for unlocking TCC.


1595315954

[Taz]

Thanks Joecar ... overlooked the state misfire off PID ... had just scanned for the misfire count PID.

[HellKnightHicks]

Looks to me like TP rate exceeds threshold for unlocking TCC.


1595315954

Think my TPS is bad because theres no way that i mashed down to 50% when that stuff was happening.

unless that was my response due to the fact that I could no longer maintain speed with the stall unlocked.

What should i do to fix that ?

[joecar]

Log shows TP going from ~20% to ~70% in a few frames... you don't recall pushing it down that much (VSS starts increasing in the next few frames)...?

[joecar]

Take some more logs, repeat the test but keep the throttle as steady as you can.

[HellKnightHicks]

Sure thing

[joecar]

Also, test your TPS (measure voltage as you operate the throttle).

[HellKnightHicks]

thats what i was wondering if my TPS was messed up... Its actually off of the TB on the marine intake... If they have a different rate then that may be the issue... I could put my old one on there....

That would make sense.

I can check it with the key on using the dashboard right?

[HellKnightHicks]

I did not have time to re log today but i did find a knock sensor low voltage code... Could that have anything to do with it?

P0327

Since 4th and TCC gererally produce a little bit of knock?

[joecar]

Knock won't cause the PCM to unlock the TCC... but misfire will.

[HellKnightHicks]

15980

So here's my log file from tonight... made sure to do no spikes or anything.

All the cars were driving slow on the road so it was hard to get a good log.

But there is one point during driving where the TCC came out early its the first good sprint at about 55 mph.

It disengages and the TPS is around 20% which in my tables corresponds to a disengagement speed of about 36 mph.



How do you get the line graphs that you sent me from your EFI live screens?

Thanks for your help.

[HellKnightHicks]

Posted that in the wrong spot a minute ago... Sorry about that.

[HellKnightHicks]

Funny thing about it is that it doesnt do it while things are warming up it only does it once its up to temp... 5~10 min of driving and it wont stay locked.

shot a video audio is all messed up because apparently the exhaust resonates at exactly the correct frequency as the mic on my phone.... And youtube is being a tard about letting me get the link to my unlisted video.


http://youtu.be/VHR0FHpDkkE
Im feathering the throttle there.

I think i can feel it slipping before it comes out.

[HellKnightHicks]

More data from the log

From my newbish understanding the info below indicates that the TCC is indeed slipping even though its in locked status.

LOG
15982

Data Points
1598315984

[joecar]

When that happens, also look at the pids TCCDC, TIS, TOS.

It's not as simple as believing the TCCSLIP pid... I found for some OS's it is accurate while for others it is not.

[HellKnightHicks]

Event Begin
15990

Event End
15989

Im no expert but it looks like its the TCC the input and output RPM stay the same threw the whole thing.

What does that mean? Is something wrong with the tranny or is it just the TCC?

[joecar]

I'm thinking it over...

[darcy]

The difference between RPM and TIS should be converter slip.
In 'Event Begin' you can see that RPM & converter slip rise together, while TIS & VSS don't really move - I'd attribute that to TCC clutch slip.

[HellKnightHicks]

I'm thinking it over...


The difference between RPM and TIS should be converter slip.
In 'Event Begin' you can see that RPM & converter slip rise together, while TIS & VSS don't really move - I'd attribute that to TCC clutch slip.

So what are we looking at a New TC because of the TCC (Torque Converter Clutch)?

I upped the slip pressure increase per second but its not done anything.

I just dont understand why it only does that when its hot. Is it not mantaining pressure? A new TC wouldnt fix that.

Could the fluid be getting used somewhere else causing a low fluid scenario?
Is this a side effect of lac of fluid?

Possibly should I over fill the tranny and see if its a lac of fluid. (Heard that has negative effects)

Im going to check the fluids after it does it the first time and see what ive got. My truck is lifted in the back though so i guess i should check the fluid on a hill to get a realistic reading lol.

Thanks for the help. Any ideas would be appreciated at this point. I cant drive it to work or anywhere out of town and it acting like that.

[joecar]

Does it only do it when hot...?

I agree, overfill with 1 quart and try again, but every few miles check the dipstick for signs of aeration/bubbles.

When you changed the filter, did you correctly install the new seal and the new filter...?

[HellKnightHicks]

Only does it once it's hot

[HellKnightHicks]

Does it only do it when hot...?

I agree, overfill with 1 quart and try again, but every few miles check the dipstick for signs of aeration/bubbles.

When you changed the filter, did you correctly install the new seal and the new filter...?

Its a new tranny. Built by a tranny shop. So I dont know..

I checked the fluid after running it was a little on the low side... But still on the stick... couple bubbles but no foam. added 1/2 a quart and then hit the road...

Its getting to the point it wont hold TCC lockup at all at this point. Starts slipping out no more than it locks up.

Fluid was a little yellowish but I wouldnt call it burnt.

[joecar]

Yes, make sure to not run low, even if it shows on the dipstick it is still low; when hot, the hot-full mark is the minimum level; you can safely overfill by 1/2 quart.

A few bubbles are ok, foam is not ok, you can see evidence of foam in a very short amount of time.

Try overfilling by a whole quart and see if it makes any difference (and then remove it by sucking it out via the dispstick tube).

Any color other than red is not ok (fluid is showing signs of local burning due to slippage).


Its getting to the point it wont hold TCC lockup at all at this point. Starts slipping out no more than it locks up.
Are you saying that TCC is slipping more and more while being commanded locked...?
Or are you saying that TCC is not being commanded locked.

[HellKnightHicks]

The fluid was purple clear when going in. Has a slight yellow cast to it now.

Yes while being commanded to lock. Slip is getting worse.

Computer is doing its job. Says commanding lock. Then shortly after its starts to slip.


I can feel it lock. But it doesn't hold it.

[joecar]

Oh, I forget that RP looks purple, I'm not sure about the yellowing.


Commanded locked and slip gets worse...

if you can feel it slipping then that TC has to come out immediately.

[HellKnightHicks]

Sup stop driving it now is what tour saying.

Well crud. There was some black stuff on the dip stick when I pulled it out the first time.

Seems like there wet l wetter lots of shavings and fine dust when I swapped the Pan.I thought that was normal for break in?

Guess not.

[joecar]

Sup stop driving it now is what tour saying.

Well crud. There was some black stuff on the dip stick when I pulled it out the first time.

Seems like there wet l wetter lots of shavings and fine dust when I swapped the Pan.I thought that was normal for break in?

Guess not.No... transmission has no break-in.

[HellKnightHicks]

Interesting cause he said it would break in in about 75 miles of city driving.

[joecar]

There is nothing inside that requires break in like new piston rings against the cylinder cross-hatch or new ring/pinion gears against each other.

[hog]

The frictions will bed in against the steels somewhat/then the band against the drum(some people actually bed in the band by pushing in the apply pistons, also TCC's will do the same. Precision Industries(Vigilante) says to not to go WOT with a new TC until you have done 50 lock/unlock cycles.


peace
Hog

[HellKnightHicks]

The frictions will bed in against the steels somewhat/then the band against the drum(some people actually bed in the band by pushing in the apply pistons, also TCC's will do the same. Precision Industries(Vigilante) says to not to go WOT with a new TC until you have done 50 lock/unlock cycles.


peace
Hog

Yank says the same thing about there TC's And they say NO synthetic fluids what so ever...

[HellKnightHicks]

They emailed me back today:

Quoting email:
Drive it around a little more. It should throw a 1870 code. If it does not I would say something wrong with the converter. We will also give you a call today.

You can call us and talk to a live person. Up until 10 PM Eastern standard time , Monday through Sunday.

Thank You, for your business and your patients.

[joecar]

Well see how it goes.

[HellKnightHicks]

Thanks for all of your help fellas. Ive learned alot about tuning tannies and how it all works and goes together.

I looked into Circle D and I really like his converters and the brains behind the TC's If I buy one i think it will be from him..

I dunno whats going to happen with the tranny shop I ordered mine from... Lou seems like an honest guy and that he really tries hes always been nice and helpful... But I dont have a complete and working tranny at the moment.

Ill keep everybody posted.

[HellKnightHicks]

Shouldnt Table D2903 be close to 0.

The clutch engauges when the pressure is reduced correct? Or am i wrong?

[Taz]

Joecar is better versed with the fluid mechanics of auto transmissions than I am ... but here is my understanding of how the TC lockup works in a 4L60.

The TCC Solenoid Valve is "normally open" when TC lockup is NOT commanded. When the PCM initiates TC lockup it closes the TCC Solenoid Valve - which causes fluid pressure to begin to increase in the TC. The rate of fluid pressure increase is controlled by the TCC PWM Solenoid Valve - to promote a smoother (i.e. softer) engagement of TC lockup.

Regarding D2903 - I generally set this no lower than 85%. Corresponding, I generally set D2904 to 99%.

[HellKnightHicks]

I would have to reduce the pressure wouldnt it.


http://youtu.be/q2fRCITXn4o

At least on the back side of the clutch

[joecar]

...

The TCC Solenoid Valve is "normally open" when TC lockup is NOT commanded. When the PCM initiates TC lockup it closes the TCC Solenoid Valve - which causes fluid pressure to begin to increase in the TC. The rate of fluid pressure increase is controlled by the TCC PWM Solenoid Valve - to promote a smoother (i.e. softer) engagement of TC lockup.

This is correct.

[joecar]

Shouldnt Table D2903 be close to 0.

The clutch engauges when the pressure is reduced correct? Or am i wrong?
D2903 is the minimum PWM duty cycle that can be commanded while the TCC is locked.
D2904 is the maximum PCM duty cycle that can be commanded while the TCC is locked.


Taz strategy is good, it ensures that the TCC won't slip when the PCM minimizes PWM DC:


Regarding D2903 - I generally set this no lower than 85%. Corresponding, I generally set D2904 to 99%.

this may cause the initial lock to be felt (slightly abrupt), but that avoids it "slipping" into lock and "slipping" out of lock.

[HellKnightHicks]

feels like annother gear... but i can tell you this change is not making my TCC hold lol

[joecar]

feels like annother gear... but i can tell you this change is not making my TCC hold lolSet D2903 to 98% and D2904 to 99%.

If the TCC is slipping then also do this:
- check pump flow (remove return line form cooler and catch fluid from cooler exit), make sure you get at least 2 quarts in 20-30 seconds.
- check line pressure (at the tap on the side of the case), in D expect 60-80 psi at idle and above ~130 psi driving at light throttle, above ~170 psi at medium throttle, above ~200 psi at WOT.

[HellKnightHicks]

What gauge would you recommend?

[joecar]

A cheap gauge that goes up to 300 psi... you can find them on Amazon or eBay for ~$30 in kit form (which includes a threaded fitting for the GM line tap).

[HellKnightHicks]

Got me a Nice TCI gauge for about $60. So I can see the shifts and line pressure.

I read somwhere on here that somebody found a pressure valve on ebay that was electronic and was reading the data into EFI live.

[Taz]

Perhaps you are referring to this thread by Mr. P .....

http://forum.efilive.com/showthread.php?16736-Digital-30-trans-PSI-sending-unit-works-great!

[HellKnightHicks]

Yup that's it

[joecar]

Note that line pressure ranges upto 210 psi or even upto 230 psi... so the 100 psi sensor is not sufficient.

[HellKnightHicks]

finally got arround to working on it.

Pulled the pan. After it busted me in the head this is what was in the bottom after
16161
I swyped with my finger there so you could get an idea of whats in the fluid.

[joecar]

Finger swipe looks like thick sludge deposit (in such a short number of miles)...

looks like there is other debris.


Fluid color is wrong (is this because it is RP...? Shouldn't it look purple-ish...?)

[HellKnightHicks]

There were debrees in the fluid.

Im sending a couple vials out to royal purple for testing.

Red fluid masks the dark yellow... The purple dies subside shortly after using the fluid.

Anything i should check to see if I actually have a modified transmission.?

[HellKnightHicks]

The dark color in the botting is that crappy TCC the filter is literally black..

Mad Dog Lou said there may be shome metal flakes from some of the machining they do and that it was nothing to worry about.

Seems like to me though you would clean all that stuff out after machining.

[joecar]

There should be no metal flakes...

yes you are absolutely correct, if they machined then they should thoroughly clean out any metal flakes/chips before assembling;

the valve body occupies the space inside the pan where the metal flake are sloshing around and can get into the valves in the VB.

[HellKnightHicks]

16196Attached New TC and mounted.

Going to clean pan and Add fluids....

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-5YeWWl9RNm8/Up6rXZUmhJI/AAAAAAAAGy4/dZJh2f4Qudc/w695-h927-no/IMG_20131203_221035.jpg

Thing was so tight tolorance wise I didnt think i was going to get it in there... Very well made.

[joecar]

How much clearance did you have between TC pads and flexplate before installing spacer washers...?

[joecar]

BTW: I see you have remote engine oil filter :cheers:

[HellKnightHicks]

How much clearance did you have between TC pads and flexplate before installing spacer washers...?

1/8 " with washer... It was more than that before the washers.


BTW: I see you have remote engine oil filter :cheers:

Yea that took a bit of work.. I have dual 1 liter filters.

[HellKnightHicks]

hit the street tonight... the TC feels tight till you lay into it then it flashes up just like its supposed to... It does eat up a little of the 1-2 shifts but thats expected.

What were the pressures the trany should be running?

100~150? I coundt see the gauge all that well because it was dark but looked consitent.

[HellKnightHicks]

Set D2903 to 98% and D2904 to 99%.

If the TCC is slipping then also do this:
- check pump flow (remove return line form cooler and catch fluid from cooler exit), make sure you get at least 2 quarts in 20-30 seconds.
- check line pressure (at the tap on the side of the case), in D expect 60-80 psi at idle and above ~130 psi driving at light throttle, above ~170 psi at medium throttle, above ~200 psi at WOT.
Found it

[HellKnightHicks]

That new TCC has a monsterous engaugment.... Harder than the 3-4 shift.... I like it lol..

The TC is well balanaced and tame until you get to about 1/4 throttle... Itll flash up to 2800~ and burn tires if you let it... them calm down and feel tight at low RPM's really well worth the money.

Any way i can get my 2-3 3-4 shifts to be firmer safely lol....

Thanks for your help and support fellas.

[HellKnightHicks]

New TC is great but im still having issues once everything warms up it starts slipping.... I klnow its not the TC at least i wouldnt think that it was after putting a $1100 TC in it from a reputable source... What could be causing the issue.

I have a pressure gauge hooked up to it so I can read the pressures while its running.

[IJ.]

Does it still have the PWM valve in place?

There are a few different PWN delete kits that help keep everything full and at the right pressure, I use a Circle D and you're correct it's like another Shift, mine doesn't slip at all once locked up.

[HellKnightHicks]

yea its still got one..

This tranny is a peice of junk... Just got solinoid B code tonight and smelled burning...

Love the TCC though.

[Wheelz]

Any way i can get my 2-3 3-4 shifts to be firmer safely lol....

Thanks for your help and support fellas.

Add Torque reduction, and speed up the shift times.

Also I've found it helps for consistency to make your high octane spark table transposed onto the optimal timing spark table. Makes torque reduction more predictable.

[joecar]

...

Also I've found it helps for consistency to make your high octane spark table transposed onto the optimal timing spark table. Makes torque reduction more predictable.Interesting... good idea, I haven't tried this yet.

[HellKnightHicks]

Does it still have the PWM valve in place?

There are a few different PWN delete kits that help keep everything full and at the right pressure, I use a Circle D and you're correct it's like another Shift, mine doesn't slip at all once locked up.

Yea it still has that.... did you install a kit like this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-4L60E-4L65E-SONNAX-TCC-REGULATOR-VALVE-KIT-93-UP-/160463002064?_trksid=p2054897.l4276

[HellKnightHicks]

They are going to completely rebuild the transmission at no charge. Circle D wants to cut the TCC open and clean it at no charge.... So I just have to get it all ripped out and shipped out. Again

[IJ.]

Yep one like that, my Trans was low mile so I didn't require the oversize one, from memory it was a recommendation from Chris at Circle D!

[joecar]

They are going to completely rebuild the transmission at no charge. Circle D wants to cut the TCC open and clean it at no charge.... So I just have to get it all ripped out and shipped out. AgainGet a list of parts they are putting (or rather have put) into the trans.

[joecar]

They are going to completely rebuild the transmission at no charge. Circle D wants to cut the TCC open and clean it at no charge.... So I just have to get it all ripped out and shipped out. AgainThis is tedious because Circle D will cut open the TC, thoroughly clean it, inspect it (check the one-way clutch), and reweld it back together...

not to mention your effort in R&R'ing the trans.

[HellKnightHicks]

This is tedious because Circle D will cut open the TC, thoroughly clean it, inspect it (check the one-way clutch), and reweld it back together...

not to mention your effort in R&R'ing the trans.

Yea im thinking about taking the tranny to the trans shop I used years ago have them look inside...

How would I Know if a Shift kit was installed.?

[joecar]

Yea im thinking about taking the tranny to the trans shop I used years ago have them look inside...

How would I Know if a Shift kit was installed.?Shift kit typically includes one or more of the following:
- color coded valve body springs,
- upto 3 washers under the 1-2 accumulator spring,
- 3rd accum hole (did I get this right?) drilled to a specific size in the VB separator plate,

those things can give a clue.

[HellKnightHicks]

Got them to replace the tranny... Dont trust them any more... took it to a local shop... busted her open.... and guess what... no custom parts what so ever... just a Z-Pack and Billet servos.... No boost valve no nothing... :( angry..

Sorry for the delay.

I have a local shop rebuilding it now..... Man my wallet hurts.

[EagleMark]

Dam! So what tranny shop is this that you paid for custom parts and got nothing?

Document it all and you should be able to get your money back from them to avoid small claims court...

[HellKnightHicks]

Mad dog transmissions. In talking to my lawyer now. I have things documented but not very well. It's a bun deal all the way around.

[EagleMark]

They could give you a full refund right now and admit to a big mistake! Or this post and thread could become viral so everyone on Internet knows? Their choice? :shock:

[IJ.]

They could give you a full refund right now and admit to a big mistake! Or this post and thread could become viral so everyone on Internet knows? Their choice? :shock:
+ Social Media

[HellKnightHicks]

Thx guys I'll be making you tube videos soon

[HellKnightHicks]

K I'll be getting my transmission back tuesday of next week... I suppose im going to need to undo the changes to the line pressure and put the TQ managament (where reduced) back in?

[HellKnightHicks]

Oh by the way it has a Transgo HD-2 kit installed and maxxed

[joecar]

Try stock Camaro shift pressure tables.

Set shift torque reduction back to stock.

Set shift times to zero.

[HellKnightHicks]

Try stock Camaro shift pressure tables.

Set shift torque reduction back to stock.

Set shift times to zero.

Will do..

What was the logic behind zeroing the shift times again... I cant seem to remember. something to the effect that it allows the shift kit to preform the actions as mechanically fast as possible.

Also what fluid should I put in this Tranny.

[hog]

Will do..

What was the logic behind zeroing the shift times again... I cant seem to remember. something to the effect that it allows the shift kit to preform the actions as mechanically fast as possible.

Also what fluid should I put in this Tranny.
Zeroing tables eliminates Adaptive Shifting.

Dexron 6 atf.

peace
Hog

[HellKnightHicks]

Zeroing tables eliminates Adaptive Shifting.

Dexron 6 atf.

peace
Hog

Redline D6 ATF

Opinions?

[HellKnightHicks]

Whats teh deal with TCC lockup during shift

Not real happy about having to redo my shift pressures... spent alot of time on them getting them where i wanted... better safe than sorry though.

[joecar]

I'm happy using M1 and Valvoline synthetics, but that is purely subjective.

[joecar]

WOT shifting with stock TCC applied typically damages the TCC.

Aftermarket multi-plate TCC's can handle this ok.

But, either way, unlocking during an upshift allows the torque converter to help the engine (allows engine RPM to stay up in the cam's torque range, and multiplies torque going into the trans).

[joecar]

Post screenshots of your shift pressure tables.

[HellKnightHicks]

The performance ones are what i used to have... the blue lines are the new values from the Stock Camero tune

16611
16612
16613

[joecar]

You should use the blue ones.

[Taz]

+1 on Joecar's comments.

The high pressure settings were to assist with diagnosing the issue with the previous transmission rebuild, and could contribute to harsh shifts in a properly operating transmission.

[HellKnightHicks]

Nice ive returned those tables to stock...

Re worked my 3rd gear TCC using the spread sheet provided here on the forum... If you could have a look and see what you guys think.

16659

Thanks.

I'll likeldy be picking up the tranny sometime next week.... hopefully be installing it by the weekend.

[joecar]

The basic rule is: the curves cannot cross.

i.e.:
- the shift curves (upshift and downshift collectively) cannot cross,
- the TCC curves (apply and release collectectively) cannot cross;

in the xls you posted, these do not follow the basic rule:
- the 4->3 downshift curve crosses under the 2->3 upshift curve,
- the 3->2 downshift curve crosses under the 1->2 upshift curve,
- the TCC 4th release curve crosses above the TCC 4th apply curve;

If you un-cross those your upshifts/downshifts and TCC apply/release will be more predictable.

[HellKnightHicks]

Im pretty sure they were crossed from the stock tune.. I'll muk with them and post it back up.

[HellKnightHicks]

16677

That should be better now

[HellKnightHicks]

Just got the new tranny wired up last night drive shaft installed and all...

[HellKnightHicks]

Everything has gone pretty great with the new tranny I've got it all dialed in where i like it.. just need to finish fixing the rest of my engine troubles. and get my front lift on lol.

Thanks for all of the help and support fellas.

[joecar]

No worries... let us know how you go.

[HellKnightHicks]

The truck has come a long way the transmission runs pretty great now I had a shuddering issue in 4th but have not seen it in a few days since some readjustments of the TCC engagement tables

My have the stall and just about everything worked out with it the engine needs to be removed and oil leak fixed and the cylinder re-honed because the piston rings never seated properly.

These things are just par for the course except for being ripped off I suppose

[driver456]

I know this thread is old but I was searching for something and ran across this.Do not use Dex 6 or any other synthetic trans fluid in a 700r or 4l60e, I had best results with Valvoline Dex III trans fluid non synthetic.

[Highlander]

Did you get to fix this?

[HellKnightHicks]

Yup... I sure did..

That transmission from MAD Dog Transmissions was a peice of junk.... Didnt even have clips on the clutch packs when we tore it down... What a mess.

Now the trucks sitting because the rings werent right. Im gonna pull it and have a new set of rings put in... Then do a Calc VE and love life again.